also. lets not forget... there are a bunch of distribution trucks that go from either either grapevine or fort worth, that are going to tulsa, everyday... they will absolutely take this new turnpike, and are absolutely going through OKC currently.

It's not the act of driving that's so bad, it's the amount of resources required to keep sprawl maintained. Miles of asphalt, water lines, sewer lines, police and fire coverage, etc. Because ultimately this road will induce more development in the area, thereby increasing the amount of net negative producing land. We already have plenty of infrastructure we will never be able to maintain. This might be good for sales tax in the short term, but its a bad investment and our children will pay.

I think that's a bit of a stretch to say that building a toll road does all of that. Induced Demand is not something Oklahoma has. We've had that conversation many times. The line between Moore and Norman is already blurring at a quick pace. Just think about how much has built in the last 20 years. Even 10 years. This is going to get ahead of that and get a land grab in before it costs even more and is even more disruptive. Putting a road in is not going to cause some crazy development along this line either. It's too close to 19th and University park. Some development, sure. But let's not overly dramatize what this is going to mean.

If what you say is true, then ANY new road ANYWHERE would be bad for the climate. And that is just not factually true. We are using more and more concrete instead of asphalt in Oklahoma roads. You're also going to start seeing a lot more electric vehicles out there. Now i'm a believe in climate change and that we've had a negative impact on the planet. But scare mongering doesn't convince anyone, it just turns them off and shuts them down. Show the evidence (not opinion) that tells why this project would be bad, taking in to consideration where it is and the local factors. Not a study that only looks at other cities with their own unique issues.

I know this topic is old, old but I wish the Kilpatrick Turnpike could simply keep the streetlights working. I've called/messaged them several times but of course, never get a response. I'd rather they not spend money to install lights if there isn't a way to keep them on

I'd like to know the number of fans in the stands on gameday that come from Tulsa. My guess it is a insignificant %.

My issue has been the lack of answers and ignorance of such things as induced demand from OTA & ODOT. This is a seat of the pants operation that is typical of the Stitt administration.

I am nearly surrounded by folks who drive from Tulsa for their season tickets, and have been for years. Of course this is just a small sampling.

I know this topic is old, old but I wish the Kilpatrick Turnpike could simply keep the streetlights working. I've called/messaged them several times but of course, never get a response. I'd rather they not spend money to install lights if there isn't a way to keep them on

thieves are bad

Induced demand theory is a total crock.

This is because it fails to look at roads as a system. Sure, if you expand, say, I-235 from 6 lanes to 12 you are going to get more traffic on I-235. But these cars don't spawn out of nothingness like enemies in a Mario game. Traffic is attracted to the better route, resulting in decreases in usage of local streets and parallel highways like I-35 or I-44. The act of improving a highway does not cause people to take new trips that they otherwise wouldn't have. People drive because they have somewhere to go. The only people that drive on a new highway solely because a new highway was built are roadgeeks, and there aren't enough of them to meaningfully affect traffic counts.

If induced demand theory was actually true, you'd see a bunch of bustling, vibrant towns with clogged streets and successful businesses along Route 66 because their traffic would have remained the same and all of the traffic on the Interstate was just induced demand. But that's not what happened. The Interstate was the best route so traffic moved to it and the old route became a ghost town.

Agreed. I can't say I have ever been induced to get in my car more often because of the existence of a roadway (other than a fun, 1-time drive down a new highway like the Kickapoo). Traffic moving smoothly down an adequate highway system is far better than the same vehicles on a section line road stopping and starting frequently due to traffic lights and signs.

While in OKC this past weekend I noted i-35 south to Norman was extremely heavy in both directions. I understand the Renaissance Festival was going on and OU sporting events.

When will they ever pull their heads out and make the access roads in Moore one way? The retail pack in Moore coupled with the 1960's access roads are a major traffic hazard on I-35. That area needs one way access roads, a crossover bridge between the section line roads and a redo of entrance and exit ramps.

Scissortail Park and the Myriad Gardens were hopping on Saturday with what had to be a few thousand people, beautiful weather, bulbs in bloom at the Scissortail bridge and the Myriad Gardens, a tree sale, farmers market, kite event, live music, etc. . In 10 years or so it will be a real jewel for the city.

Walked through the convention center. VERY nice!

Omni Hotel, again VERY nice and extremely busy. That was great to see.

Downtown hotels were very active with some sort of pot convention, out of state teams participating in OU sporting events and the Thunder games.

Stayed at the Sheraton. Still a very nice hotel and was busy and well run.

A pot convention lol! How did I not hear about that?

Public meeting scheduled

https://twitter.com/OKDOT/status/1513597165028917252


The
@OKTurnpike
will host a public meeting on Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 6:00 PM at the Chandler Park Community Center to discuss the Gilcrease Turnpike.

We will monitor this thread for questions, comments and concerns to be addressed at the meeting.

I just don't like how this state plans its highways and turnpikes, it seems like there either is no strategy or their strategy is entirely based-upon the idea of relieving traffic in cities by diverting it to small towns, and that it's driven by typical state employee think that just doesn't adequately consider major metropolitan issues. I-35 through the Moore/Norman area is one of the most congested areas in the city during rush hours. I just don't buy it that diverting industrial traffic is going to address that in any significant way, say anything more than 10-15%. At the rate we are going that buys us maybe another couple of years? It's just a horribly non-strategic solution.

I feel for the people in the eastern metro, but I am in favor of immanent domain when it makes sense. I know it would be even more painful, but I think the better solution would have been addressing the fact that I-35 is too narrow for the traffic it is handling, and that it is the only major North/South highway in this entire section of the city. No city traveler is going to go way out to Lake Thunderbird to get to the North metro. I actually think either a closer-in turnpike route or an I-35 expansion is needed.

I do think that there are reasonable environmental concerns that need to be investigated, and I don't think Oklahoma does a good job in that area compared to the rest of the country. WildCare Oklahoma recently wrote an opinion article for The Oklahoman that I think raises reasonable issues that need to be considered.

To me this solution looks like something that is the result of a million compromises, with a bias towards "the state" as opposed to the major metropolitan areas that they need to be serving.

There was an article in the Oklahoman talking about turnpikes. It's behind the paywall, can anyone sum it up for us?

There was an article in the Oklahoman talking about turnpikes. It's behind the paywall, can anyone sum it up for us?
What is it is a flat out lie. I would post it but I’ve posted a lot and don’t want to get attention for doing it. But basically it claims the first turnpikes were supposed to be made free after the bonds were paid off. What the article buries and hides is the fact voters approved a state question to keep the authority in tact and tolled to continue finding improvements and new roads.

It also makes it sound like the OTA was trying to build turnpikes like the Cherokee Turnpike to have reasons to continue existing and conveniently leaves out how the OTA didn’t want those roads but were forced to build them because of political reasons. It’s a joke. Tons of other cities can these roads built but growth is always protested in OKC albeit the typical cookie cutter tract housing along endless section mile long roads with no real plan on how to handle the additional sprawl.

Yet these areas were the projects are planned will slowly but surely see the same fate it just happens slower, housing development by housing development, cookie cutter strip mall by cookie cutter strip mall, piece by piece, until it’s so developed build a new freeway will no longer be feasible. While it’s sad to see anyone lose their homes these journalist pieces particularly by KFOR and The Oklahoma are just exploiting the situation by coming out with a rinsed and repeated article one after the other. They’re eating this situation up like hot cakes. Journalism in Oklahoma is a joke. There some great players like The Frontier and FP OKC who are trying.

The Cherokee Turnpike was specifically done by OTA as a safety upgrade because ODOT couldn't afford to improve old State Highway 33, which was considered dangerous at the time. The old road through the area is now numbered as Alternate 412. You can see on a map how much more it meanders through the area than the turnpike (and here's a Google Street View (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1880108,-95.2415964,3a,75y,285.15h,82.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spm6ufydYd2IrKNesxUFpzA!2e0!7i1 6384!8i8192) shot of one of the meandering areas).

In my opinion, many turnpikes are built to enrich housing builders who build cookie cutter sprawl near the turnpikes. I may be wrong, but I believe builders even sit on the OTA board

In my opinion, many turnpikes are built to enrich housing builders who build cookie cutter sprawl near the turnpikes. I may be wrong, but I believe builders even sit on the OTA board

100%. McCaleb was one profiting off this.

100%. McCaleb was one profiting off this.

McCaleb developments at least currently and I think historically are in Edmond along 35 so he hasn’t had any profit off tollways adding access to his develolments
Maybe I’m mistaken

McCaleb developments at least currently and I think historically are in Edmond along 35 so he hasn’t had any profit off tollways adding access to his develolments
Maybe I’m mistaken

You're correct, McCaleb has never earned a penny from turnpike placement, but why kill a good rumor!

McCaleb developments at least currently and I think historically are in Edmond along 35 so he hasn’t had any profit off tollways adding access to his develolments
Maybe I’m mistaken

There's a different McCaleb who definitely helped promote highway projects... not the home builder. Neal McCaleb is an engineer who led (or leads?) a PAC-style organization of engineering companies who promote this type of work...

There's a different McCaleb who definitely helped promote highway projects... not the home builder. Neal McCaleb is an engineer who led (or leads?) a PAC-style organization of engineering companies who promote this type of work...

Same guy, same family.

Some of those houses have the turnpike right in their backyard on Kilpatrick as it turns from N/S to E/W.

So, realistically speaking, when do we think work could be started on Kilpatrick's entrance and exits for Council and County Line?

just saw on twitter that the southwest loud, all of the indian hills, and the purcell to I-40 turnpikes have all been approved. didn't see anything about the approvals for the work to the current turnpikes, also didn't know if it needed commission approval or not.

just saw on twitter that the southwest loud, all of the indian hills, and the purcell to I-40 turnpikes have all been approved. didn't see anything about the approvals for the work to the current turnpikes, also didn't know if it needed commission approval or not.

https://www.normantranscript.com/news/updated-full-speed-ahead-for-access-turnpike-plan-ota-circumvents-district-court-attorney-says/article_95141c56-e849-11ec-9b10-cbdc0287179f.html

I've noticed a few misinformation posts in social media lately. Specifically one family that is claiming it will go through their home and destroy the (honestly very lovely) landscaping they've made. Problem is, it's not going to be near their home, it's at the back end of their lot and the line of lots they're on. Yes, it's a road they didn't plan on having there and it will create noise that they didn't plan on before, but it's hard to make an argument if you're not providing accurate information and actually are misleading people.

I have no information as to if this is the case for any other families. Just this one family, the Pennington's i believe.

I've noticed a few misinformation posts in social media lately. Specifically one family that is claiming it will go through their home and destroy the (honestly very lovely) landscaping they've made. Problem is, it's not going to be near their home, it's at the back end of their lot and the line of lots they're on. Yes, it's a road they didn't plan on having there and it will create noise that they didn't plan on before, but it's hard to make an argument if you're not providing accurate information and actually are misleading people.

I have no information as to if this is the case for any other families. Just this one family, the Pennington's i believe.

I'm pretty sure that if a turnpike goes through your lot it might as well be going through your house. I don't see a difference unless they're sitting on a few acres.

Well that's sort of what we're looking at in these areas. These are not subdision lots with backyards only large enough for a swingset. They are 1+ acre plots.

Not sure of the turnpikes design but a lot of the noise would be mitigated if they went below grade in this area and had walls on both sides.

You can pretty much guarantee that they are going to build at-grade. We can't even get below-grade highways through the core of OKC, there's next to no chance that OTA is going to spend a bunch of extra money to build below grade through farmland and subdivisions.

Studies on walls being built near highways show that it doesn't reduce overall noise. It lessens it right next to the highway, but increases it as you move farther away.

You can pretty much guarantee that they are going to build at-grade. We can't even get below-grade highways through the core of OKC, there's next to no chance that OTA is going to spend a bunch of extra money to build below grade through farmland and subdivisions.

The last time I looked most of I-40 is below grade through the core ?

are we at the point now that this is going to go forward (probably) that we start it's own thread like we did for "Drive Forward Oklahoma"? What is this set of project called again? "Access Oklahoma"? Just figure we don't want to clog up the OTA thread for other things that aren't related to this specific project.

The last time I looked most of I-40 is below grade through the core ?

I mean…technically I guess, but not far enough below grade to make a difference with regards to noise. I believe the original plans were to build the new section 20 feet below grade but eventually it only ended up 5 feet below grade and it’s still plenty noisy if you’re in Scissortail Park on a day when there isn’t a strong northerly wind.

I thought it was originally supposed to be 16 feet deep but ended up 12 feet because they hit bedrock sooner than expected...

Its way more than 5. I think that depends on where you are in the path. Some of it is quite deep and it does fluctuate.

And yes, i think it's fair to say (like i did before). We're going to hear everyone throw a fit, but in the end they will get a pass to start and no amount of complaints will change it. OTA gets a free pass like the utilities to do whatever they want.

I've made the trip from OKC to Purcell and back 3 times in the last 2 weeks, every time I make this trip, I'm more convinced how badly this turnpike is needed!

SAFETY FIRST

Most of the Cimarron Turnpike should be converted to cashless tolling by the end of this week:

https://okcfox.com/news/local/cimarron-turnpike-begins-transition-to-platepay-cashless-tolling-oklahoma-department-of-transportation-odot-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-ota-stillwater-tulsa-pawnee-county-oklahoma-state-university-osu-traffic-congestion-road-construction

Most of the Cimarron Turnpike should be converted to cashless tolling by the end of this week:

https://okcfox.com/news/local/cimarron-turnpike-begins-transition-to-platepay-cashless-tolling-oklahoma-department-of-transportation-odot-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-ota-stillwater-tulsa-pawnee-county-oklahoma-state-university-osu-traffic-congestion-road-constructionMaybe they should work on ACTUALLY converting what they've converted before they proceed to the next. Just putting up barriers and making everyone go through the one lane of Pikepass while zero progress is made to remove the old toll booth for months on end is rather ridiculous. Reference: HE Bailey Turnpike.

I've used the eastern side turnpike several times in the last few months. MAN does that thing save time if you have to go north of I-40 any distance, say to 23rd street. It's MUCH faster than the stop and go roads. I'm a pikepass user, but this was a non-manned toll area and those things only seem to work 1/2 the time. So going tagless was great. Although it does seem dumb that they spent money on all the toll crap only to pull it out 6 months later. Surely they knew this was coming and could have saved a bunch on even building these things in the first place.

Maybe they should work on ACTUALLY converting what they've converted before they proceed to the next. Just putting up barriers and making everyone go through the one lane of Pikepass while zero progress is made to remove the old toll booth for months on end is rather ridiculous. Reference: HE Bailey Turnpike.
I asked about the old plazas and I was told aside from few exceptions most will remain for the foreseeable future until all turnpikes are converted to cashless. I too would like to see them removed since they aren’t in use. It’s just plain ugly.

I asked about the old plazas and I was told aside from few exceptions most will remain for the foreseeable future until all turnpikes are converted to cashless. I too would like to see them removed since they aren’t in use. It’s just plain ugly.That's really unfortunate. Much of the time traffic slows way down because it's down to one lane. It's essentially a construction zone that they're dragging out the timeline for. They're inherently more dangerous. It's just bad management to drag it out. If someone gets injured or dies because they get rear-ended by a semi not paying attention to the 30 mph traffic it's on their hands for poor management.

I've used the eastern side turnpike several times in the last few months. MAN does that thing save time if you have to go north of I-40 any distance, say to 23rd street. It's MUCH faster than the stop and go roads. I'm a pikepass user, but this was a non-manned toll area and those things only seem to work 1/2 the time. So going tagless was great. Although it does seem dumb that they spent money on all the toll crap only to pull it out 6 months later. Surely they knew this was coming and could have saved a bunch on even building these things in the first place.

I've thought the same thing about the toll plaza on that road. That was a big waste of money, knowing it was only going to be used for a short time and now it's just sitting there empty.

thought I was going to come here to find info on the protest at the gov's fundraiser

That's really unfortunate. Much of the time traffic slows way down because it's down to one lane. It's essentially a construction zone that they're dragging out the timeline for. They're inherently more dangerous. It's just bad management to drag it out. If someone gets injured or dies because they get rear-ended by a semi not paying attention to the 30 mph traffic it's on their hands for poor management.
I don’t think it’ll stay at one lane but they are supposed to rebuild the Walters plaza.

It costs money to remove them. Think about the George Bush in north Dallas. They left the MASSIVE toll plazas in place and just used those areas for equipment parking.

It costs money to remove them. Think about the George Bush in north Dallas. They left the MASSIVE toll plazas in place and just used those areas for equipment parking.The difference is that what has been left open in many cases is a singular lane here. I couldn't care less if they leave, for instance the toll plazas on the Kilpatrick, because traffic can flow freely. But when the pike pass lane is a singular lane off to the side, or there isn't even a lane off to the side, it's just dangerous. And they need to get with the program and remove the obstacle when they go to plate pay in these areas.

More dangerous than traffic stopping in the middle of the road to pay a toll? I aways thought pikepass was an afterthought on the HE Bailey and was added in later since pikepass was on the right hand side. I'm sure the plan is to remove the curbs and toll equipment and not have traffic shift anymore. They actually moved up HE Bailey PlatePay date because of an accident at the toll plaza.

I dont recall 100% because i didn't care too much at the time, but i think the newer west toll plaza on the HEB is with the PikePass on the middle and the toll to the side like the rest of them. If they are planning on redoing the east plaza then i bet this takes care of itself.

I dont recall 100% because i didn't care too much at the time, but i think the newer west toll plaza on the HEB is with the PikePass on the middle and the toll to the side like the rest of them. If they are planning on redoing the east plaza then i bet this takes care of itself.

Looking at google maps, they seem to have updated both directions

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/turnpikes022222b.jpg

What’s the timeline for the Kickapoo Extension? Took this for the first time last weekend, very nice highway but needs the extension to really see a lot of use. The Extension will be great for driving from Tulsa to Norman.

Wasn't there a meeting yesterday with the state supreme court about this? The way i read the article, if it decided with the plaintiffs, then OTA would have to drop the plan????

The way i read the article, if it decided with the plaintiffs, then OTA would have to drop the plan????

i don't believe this is/was the case at the worst for OTA it could extent the battle

Here's an article from today on it, but i guess they just presented their arguments. The supreme court has to now make their decision
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/politics/government/2022/09/14/turnpike-opponents-present-argument-to-oklahoma-supreme-court-jered-davidson/69492699007/

Here's an article from today on it, but i guess they just presented their arguments. The supreme court has to now make their decision
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/politics/government/2022/09/14/turnpike-opponents-present-argument-to-oklahoma-supreme-court-jered-davidson/69492699007/

right but if even if the rule against the OTA this turnpike is not dead

right but if even if the rule against the OTA this turnpike is not dead

My understanding is that it would bring to question about how they do this sort of thing so it would force a re-do. I'm not legally in the trenches on this by any means, but if it impacts the financials, i would think that it would impact the deployment at all. Meaning, if they can't fund it this way, how will they? So how would they do the project at all?

My money is betting that the SCOTOK votes in favor of OTA and this is a non-issue. The groups fighting against it have not been very truthful in public so I think it's hurt their case quite a bit in the public eye. It may not be the residents even, rather other groups working against OTA that embellish the story. But so far, I'm not seeing anything that does anything other than delay, not cancel. Thoughts?

My understanding is that it would bring to question about how they do this sort of thing so it would force a re-do. I'm not legally in the trenches on this by any means, but if it impacts the financials, i would think that it would impact the deployment at all. Meaning, if they can't fund it this way, how will they? So how would they do the project at all?

My money is betting that the SCOTOK votes in favor of OTA and this is a non-issue. The groups fighting against it have not been very truthful in public so I think it's hurt their case quite a bit in the public eye. It may not be the residents even, rather other groups working against OTA that embellish the story. But so far, I'm not seeing anything that does anything other than delay, not cancel. Thoughts?

my understanding is that the "worst" that would happen for OTA is that SCOTOK tells them that they can't move forward with the bond issue until after the Court cases regarding the new turnpikes are resolved.

so not really much different then what you said ..

my understanding is that the "worst" that would happen for OTA is that SCOTOK tells them that they can't move forward with the bond issue until after the Court cases regarding the new turnpikes are resolved.

so not really much different then what you said ..
Do you know of any current timeline? I wish they’d start on the east to west connector and the Kickapoo south extension asap

Do you know of any current timeline? I wish they’d start on the east to west connector and the Kickapoo south extension asap

I’m really looking forward to the portion of the EW connector from I-44 to I-35.

I’m really looking forward to the portion of the EW connector from I-44 to I-35.
Indeed and I will be extremely happy once the proposed five stack at I-35 is constructed.

Do you know of any current timeline? I wish they’d start on the east to west connector and the Kickapoo south extension asap

i know that there were several survey crews along indian hills rd from 35, to western just a few weeks ago. my assumption is that atleast this part of it is going to be one of the first projects started on...

Indeed and I will be extremely happy once the proposed five stack at I-35 is constructed.


Are there any renderings or drawings of the proposed interchange?

i know that there were several survey crews along indian hills rd from 35, to western just a few weeks ago. my assumption is that atleast this part of it is going to be one of the first projects started on...

I know several people along Indian Hills who have already sold their property to the OTA. Seems that the OTA is pretty confident that this portion will move forward.