If you want to read a recent Law Review Note about Tribal Sovereignty and a State's power of Eminent Domain, you can check this out:
Partially Tribal Land:The Case for Limiting State Eminent Domain Power under 25 USC § 357 [PDF] (https://lawreview.uchicago.edu/sites/lawreview.uchicago.edu/files/BennettA_CMT_Post-SA%20%28JJ%29.pdf)
tl/dr: Federal statute allows state eminent domain for condemnation of tribal lands allotted to individual landowners, but not of lands held by a tribal entity. (Please see the Note for appropriate citations. There are 175, not including the Note Title.)



[quote]And @Midtowner, no, McGirt was not overturned.

Concurrent jurisdiction does not create near the problems as the grant of tribal governments to exclusive jurisdiction for criminal prosecutions. For all intents and purposes, yes, McGirt was overturned in the sense that the more recent ruling does not create near the headache for the system as McGirt did. I think it also headed off some very problematic developments in looking at the criminal aspects of McGirt jurisdiction creep into taxing and civil jurisdiciton by the state courts. The native governments just aren't ready for that and they're really ill equipped to handle things like major infrastructure projects.

And regarding the Law Review Note, that's just an opinion, i.e., it's nice to be nice to native governments. It's not the law. While the 10th Circuit has held pretty much in accordance with that Note, I'm not sure how that shakes out in other jurisdictions. The 10th Circuit is, compared to other jurisdictions a lot more favorable to Native interests than other circuits, or even the SCOTUS these days.

I'm confused. From the piece I heard on NPR the other day and an article on KFOR's website a couple days ago the land belongs to the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation. Not any tribe. The Bureau works very closely with tribes but if the land belongs to the Bureau then it belongs to the Federal Government.

I think we are discussing different land areas-you are referring to the actual proposed turnpike on the west side of Lake Thunderbird, and the Indian discussions are about the east side of the lake.

I think we are discussing different land areas-you are referring to the actual proposed turnpike on the west side of Lake Thunderbird, and the Indian discussions are about the east side of the lake.Ok. I missed that there were two different paths involved.

Ok. I missed that there were two different paths involved.

yes. so the fed land is on the East side, and they said that the turnpike can not go on this land. there was then a conversation off if this would kill the project (it won't) if it would go to the East side of the lake (tribal land discussion) or just move further west to avoid the Federal Land (probably what will happen). i think that brings you up too speed on what all the discussion has been about. But the initial start of it was the info you heard on NPR.

So I guess the question is how much further west would they need to go? East 48th? If so now we are talking double the amount of homes being taken out than before? Just looking at the map it seems way more logical to go east of the lake. I really can't think of a reason the tribe would not want the turnpike to bring more commerce to the area but I can also understand if they were to say no to protect tribal members property in the area.
Seems way cheaper to go east.

So I guess the question is how much further west would they need to go? East 48th? If so now we are talking double the amount of homes being taken out than before? Just looking at the map it seems way more logical to go east of the lake. I really can't think of a reason the tribe would not want the turnpike to bring more commerce to the area but I can also understand if they were to say no to protect tribal members property in the area.
Seems way cheaper to go east.

looking at the map in the article that jersey boss linked to in post 585, it looks to me as if moving the route from 1/5 of a mile east of 72nd to 1/5 of a mile west of 72nd would solve the federal land issue. the article states that the usbr is willing to negotiate crossing pipelines and flowage easements, so this route might address the issues with federal land.

my understanding is that ota avoided the eastern route for two main reasons. first, the route would have been a little longer which would have marginally increased construction and maintenance costs. second, and probably of greater importance, i think there was concern that the eastern route would reduce usage rates from norman citizens.

my understanding is that ota avoided the eastern route for two main reasons. first, the route would have been a little longer which would have marginally increased construction and maintenance costs. second, and probably of greater importance, i think there was concern that the eastern route would reduce usage rates from norman citizens.[/QUOTE]

Lots of flood plain area around the little river around Franklin/Tecumseh if they go that way.

In the grand scheme of things the traffic gained or lost by Norman residents in the area doesn't seem to be that much. But I'm sure they have some traffic model that gives them more data than we have.
One the flip side, wasn't this spur proposed to move interstate traffic off of 35 and around the metro? If that is the case, why worry about making it easier for a few thousand people east of Norman to go north or south on the new toll road?

What are the chances of the turnpike going east of the lake and the East West Connector following the original route of the south expansion going to indian hills rd and going west to i44

Does anyone have a recent diagram showing how and where it goes from I44 back west to connect?

Does anyone have a recent diagram showing how and where it goes from I44 back west to connect?

this is probably your best bet:
https://www.accessoklahoma.com/

this is probably your best bet:
https://www.accessoklahoma.com/

Thanks martin. I heard the airport wasnt going to give up any land which forces it closer to my property at sw 104/MacArthur

Thanks martin. I heard the airport wasnt going to give up any land which forces it closer to my property at sw 104/MacArthur

i believe you are correct. i heard this as well. last i heard from a survey group working with OTA, the plan they are looking at is to keep it south of 104th till west of MacAurthur, and then cross 104th just west of Regina Ave, and then i don't know if it will cross 89th east or west or regina, but then run north in the open land north of 89th, all the way to 152. so it does sound like the OTA is looking at trying to avoid all of the Airport land (or atleast are surveying to see the feasibility

Wow that would be interesting as I’m assuming they would have to buy all those houses at the front of Old Tuscany which I believe is the neighborhood Jeepnokc lives in. I live just down the street and my wife and I looked at that house that’s on 104th, just a couple down from the Milam castle when it went up for sale as we’d wanted something on 5 acres and didn’t want to change schools. If they build it where you are saying that house would have to go.

That proposed Tri-City Connector route is the only one where I don't understand why OTA is bothering. The East-West Connector, Kickapoo Extension, and Gilcrease Extension all clearly have their merits but except for peak, peak rush hour traffic, I'm thinking that the Tri-City Connector is going to shave, what, maybe a minute off of the current SH-152 to I-44 route? And possibly even less if they end up taking some wonky route that weaves around subdivisions a la the Kilpatrick Extension.

Wow that would be interesting as I’m assuming they would have to buy all those houses at the front of Old Tuscany which I believe is the neighborhood Jeepnokc lives in. I live just down the street and my wife and I looked at that house that’s on 104th, just a couple down from the Milam castle when it went up for sale as we’d wanted something on 5 acres and didn’t want to change schools. If they build it where you are saying that house would have to go.

The plan doesn't seem clear to me and still seems to show on the website a little different plan which is the old plan that we have all heard won't work. Thy could stay south of 104th (that is still all airport land though) and then cut up along MacArthur up to 89tj and them cut over. Would ne taking the back side of a lot of acres lots though. I am in Olde Tuscany and I am one of the lots on the east side backing up to the airport land.

What makes more sense is to go south of olde tuscany (but need to act soon as they have just approved a subdivision there) and the turn back north just west of Olde Tuscany which is still farm land and then run up the west side of Regina which is farmland Would have to take out a few house but would be minimal. (And maybe the god awful Milam Castle)

The Airport Trust being protectionary of that land when there is a 0% chance of it being utilized for aviation purposes in the next 50 years is hilarious to me -- meanwhile, they have used some prime land to lease to a gas station and cancer screening facility on the other side of the airport that is probably the most likely to be needed for an aviation use in that same time frame.

The Airport Trust being protectionary of that land when there is a 0% chance of it being utilized for aviation purposes in the next 50 years is hilarious to me -- meanwhile, they have used some prime land to lease to a gas station and cancer screening facility on the other side of the airport that is probably the most likely to be needed for an aviation use in that same time frame.

But it will make it easier for me to get a good cup of coffee in the morning :) i agree with you though

The plan doesn't seem clear to me and still seems to show on the website a little different plan which is the old plan that we have all heard won't work. Thy could stay south of 104th (that is still all airport land though) and then cut up along MacArthur up to 89tj and them cut over. Would ne taking the back side of a lot of acres lots though. I am in Olde Tuscany and I am one of the lots on the east side backing up to the airport land.

What makes more sense is to go south of olde tuscany (but need to act soon as they have just approved a subdivision there) and the turn back north just west of Olde Tuscany which is still farm land and then run up the west side of Regina which is farmland Would have to take out a few house but would be minimal. (And maybe the god awful Milam Castle)

Their original plan actually makes the most amount of sense. Surely they can figure out a way to maybe just shift it some and make the airport happy as the original plan I thought did a good job of staying towards the edge of the airport property.

i had not heard anything about challenges with the route around the airport... seems like this will be way more challenging if the airport doesn't cooperate.


(And maybe the god awful Milam Castle)

ha... i remember seeing that on the market a year or two ago. it looked to me like somebody built an events center and tried to disguise it as a house. do you know if it ever sold?

ha... i remember seeing that on the market a year or two ago. it looked to me like somebody built an events center and tried to disguise it as a house. do you know if it ever sold?

I don't think so, It basically a big finished barn with an apartment in the back. The HOA was getting ready to file a lawsuit when one of the owners came down with cancer so they stopped doing events.

Their original plan actually makes the most amount of sense. Surely they can figure out a way to maybe just shift it some and make the airport happy as the original plan I thought did a good job of staying towards the edge of the airport property.

Making sense for the road does not mean it makes sense for the airport, the route Pete showed has it going where they reserved an option for another runway, which is way wider than the road would be. There also could be issues using airport land that was paid for even partially with federal funds if it is not deemed serving the airport.

i had not heard anything about challenges with the route around the airport... seems like this will be way more challenging if the airport doesn't cooperate.



ha... i remember seeing that on the market a year or two ago. it looked to me like somebody built an events center and tried to disguise it as a house. do you know if it ever sold?

It actually sold last September for $1.75mil. Only took 5 different Realtors and a significant drop in price from what they originally asked for in 2019 ($6.8mil!) lol

I’m out of the loop. What is the status of the east to west connector and south extension? Does this mean they’re dead?

There is an article online where the OKLAHOMAN alleges a legislator whose house was in the proposed route was paid 100K over the appraised value of her house.

There is an article online where the OKLAHOMAN alleges a legislator whose house was in the proposed route was paid 100K over the appraised value of her house.

It also says there are reasons why the price was upped and that the value wasn't considered unusual.

Just click-bait IMO.

It also says there are reasons why the price was upped and that the value wasn't considered unusual.

Just click-bait IMO.

Thanks Pete. Due to the pay wall, I was unable to read the article.

I’m out of the loop. What is the status of the east to west connector and south extension? Does this mean they’re dead?

no, not dead at all. i think we are all still waiting for the Supreme Court Ruling. all of the other law suits and rulings, are really just slowing down the process, have done nothing in the way of stopping any of it. There just seems to need to be some slight modifications around Federal Land around Lake Thunderbird which will require taking a few more houses, and same around the airport.

There just seems to need to be some slight modifications around Federal Land around Lake Thunderbird which will require taking a few more houses

Brilliant work by the turnpike opponents if this is the end result, though that could be unfair since the feds might have said no regardless of local objections.

FYI - if you go to the Access Oklahoma website they have posted updates for each of the projects. They break it down by each segment within each project, noting which ones are held up in court vs which ones are they are continuing with design/engineering on. Generally, they have been bad about keeping that site updated, so I was surprised to see those updates posted recently.

no, not dead at all. i think we are all still waiting for the Supreme Court Ruling. all of the other law suits and rulings, are really just slowing down the process, have done nothing in the way of stopping any of it. There just seems to need to be some slight modifications around Federal Land around Lake Thunderbird which will require taking a few more houses, and same around the airport.
Awesome! Hopefully these projects get built.

This was a Lawton based company that has stations on many of the Oklahoma turnpikes. Looks like Loves will be buying them out. I assume this means Loves will acquire these locations as well.

17876

Looking at the plans for the kilpatrick. It looks like there will only be an interchange at county line. Not new ramps at council. And also looks like no new off ramps for west bound kilpatrick. This seems weird. Still requiring anyone going west to get off at rockwell

Looking at the plans for the kilpatrick. It looks like there will only be an interchange at county line. Not new ramps at council. And also looks like no new off ramps for west bound kilpatrick. This seems weird. Still requiring anyone going west to get off at rockwell


Hmm, that change is recent. The plans I'd seen had a full interchange at Council.

Hmm, that change is recent. The plans I'd seen had a full interchange at Council.

Yea it seems odd. I looks at the plans multiple times and there I nothing for council. And nothing for west bound off ramps which seems insane. So much traffic already had to exit at rockwell. And that is where relief it needed with an additional off-ramp at council or county line to give relief to that area.

OTA needs to add eastbound JKT exit ramp for Santa Fe now that they have gone cashless rendering the old toll plaza that's there empty. They've got plenty of room to make an offramp up to the service road there. This would provide major relief to the JKT/Western intersection.

OTA needs to add eastbound JKT exit ramp for Santa Fe now that they have gone cashless rendering the old toll plaza that's there empty. They've got plenty of room to make an offramp up to the service road there. This would provide major relief to the JKT/Western intersection.

That would help, also reworking the entire south side Western/Memorial intersection is needed. The on-off ramps also need to be pushed back to ease congestion. Overall it wouldn't cost that much to do compared to building an entire new turnpike in eastern Oklahoma county.

Who owns what? I imagine the at grade intersection is OKC, ramps would be OTA? Does OTA technically maintain the access road from Costco to Santa Fe, since that isn't Memorial?

Looking at the plans for the kilpatrick. It looks like there will only be an interchange at county line. Not new ramps at council. And also looks like no new off ramps for west bound kilpatrick. This seems weird. Still requiring anyone going west to get off at rockwell

Are you speaking of N Council?

https://www.oag.ok.gov/articles/drummond-requests-investigative-audit-oklahoma-turnpike-authority

Drummond requests investigative audit of Oklahoma Turnpike Authority

Some really good info on the court case the OTA just lost and the current OTA financials.
https://freedom969.com/podcast/the-jake-merrick-show?play_file=133146
I can understand now why the state AG will be doing the audit.

I know its all speculation. I'm no fan of the OTA at all and I welcome a set of eyes making sure they're up to snuff. But does anyone thing this will actually prevent them from doing the new roads? So far, i'm not seeing anything that would do anything other than inconvenience them and potentially make them spend one on audit/legal work (that i'm sure they'll try to find some way to pass on to customers). I mean in the end, we all suffer since we either pay more or they defer maintenance to eat the cost. They're certainly not going to take it out of their profit margin.

But it feels like the OTA is an unstoppable beast and that it's all just a matter of dotting some I's and crossing some T's and they'll be right back on the path.

I know its all speculation. I'm no fan of the OTA at all and I welcome a set of eyes making sure they're up to snuff. But does anyone thing this will actually prevent them from doing the new roads? So far, i'm not seeing anything that would do anything other than inconvenience them and potentially make them spend one on audit/legal work (that i'm sure they'll try to find some way to pass on to customers). I mean in the end, we all suffer since we either pay more or they defer maintenance to eat the cost. They're certainly not going to take it out of their profit margin.

But it feels like the OTA is an unstoppable beast and that it's all just a matter of dotting some I's and crossing some T's and they'll be right back on the path.

it really all comes down to the State Supreme Court decision. even the AG investigation is really just political theater if the Court says that the OTA can move forward. literally everything else that has been said, ruled, etc has all just been minor setbacks to the project.

Anyone driving I-35 around the Purcell, Norman area should be able to see the need for a Norman bypass especially looking towards the future. My opinion but it seems to me most of those complaining the loudest are NIMBY types or left leaning looking to push back against a right leaning state government. Not saying OTA is perfect at all but feel like the Kickapoo South extension is badly needed. Hope the SSC moves forward with this.

All of it is needed. Hopefully the court soon rules in favor so they can get going on these projects. I’m not a blind cheerleader of the OTA I have my criticisms but these are awesome projects. Especially the five stack proposed at I-35.

Anyone driving I-35 around the Purcell, Norman area should be able to see the need for a Norman bypass especially looking towards the future. My opinion but it seems to me most of those complaining the loudest are NIMBY types or left leaning looking to push back against a right leaning state government. Not saying OTA is perfect at all but feel like the Kickapoo South extension is badly needed. Hope the SSC moves forward with this.

I know several of the people in Norman complaining, as you say, and they aren't complaining because they're being political or pushing back against government. They are genuinely upset they are going to lose their homes. That's a legitimate concern for them, so let's not reduce their complaints to political posturing. OTA violated the law when they developed and proceeded to approve these plans and contracts, so it's certainly correct they aren't perfect. If traffic growth is in fact a concern that needs to be addressed, it can be done in a way that is lawful, transparent, and adequately takes into account the personal disruptions likely to be caused.

I know several of the people in Norman complaining, as you say, and they aren't complaining because they're being political or pushing back against government. They are genuinely upset they are going to lose their homes. That's a legitimate concern for them, so let's not reduce their complaints to political posturing. OTA violated the law when they developed and proceeded to approve these plans and contracts, so it's certainly correct they aren't perfect. If traffic growth is in fact a concern that needs to be addressed, it can be done in a way that is lawful, transparent, and adequately takes into account the personal disruptions likely to be caused.

which they now have done

Anyone driving I-35 around the Purcell, Norman area should be able to see the need for a Norman bypass especially looking towards the future. My opinion but it seems to me most of those complaining the loudest are NIMBY types or left leaning looking to push back against a right leaning state government. Not saying OTA is perfect at all but feel like the Kickapoo South extension is badly needed. Hope the SSC moves forward with this.

My gripe is the route chosen. They should be going down the east side of Lake Thunderbird to connect up with Highway 9 around the Little Axe area. Keep the cost down by minimizing how much needs to get built. The stair-step pattern of the current plan seems unnecessary.

I do fully agree that a connector between I-35 and I-44 in North Norman or South Moore is needed. Though Indian Hills between I-35 and 77H doesn't need to be a highway.

No. The western route is better as it provides better transport options for Norman as well. Eventually a new freeway will also be needed east of Thunderbird.

Though Indian Hills between I-35 and 77H doesn't need to be a highway.

i keep hearing people say this, and i just am curious what route these people take to try and cross norman. it can take 40 minutes just to get down robinson from I-35 to 77h and it's like 3 1/4 miles. and Tecumseh keeps getting worse. if there was a fast way to get from 35 over to the east side of norman so alleviate some of that traffic, i think it would be very beneficial for all of norman. maybe those people who are saying that live in moore, and i can't speak for the travel times between 35 and 77h in moore, as i have never driven on those roads.

I also think this is wrong. Even the west route is too far east IMO. It should be closer to Norman where increased traffic would better pay for any higher costs. After all, isn't the purpose of a highway to carry traffic efficiently?

The further west you go the higher the cost. Wasn't the purpose to divert traffic around Norman, and not through it?

The further west you go the higher the cost. Wasn't the purpose to divert traffic around Norman, and not through it?

i think it's a mix of both. which is why they went west of thunderbird. to get traffic off of I-35 and also still be used for norman.

Press release:

***************

Oklahoma Turnpike Authority stops work on ACCESS Oklahoma projects
4/11/2023

Earlier today, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority notified its board and its consultants that all work on the comprehensive, long-range plan, known as Access Oklahoma, will cease as of Friday, April 14. This stoppage includes the work on the Turner Turnpike as well as the widening and interchange additions for safety and community access on other highly used turnpikes across the state – projects that are high priorities to the board, OTA and the state as a whole.

While OTA remains in a strong financial position in large part due to exceptional accounting practices and financial controls in place, it can no longer continue funding work without a clear timetable for access to the bond market.

“I have mentioned several times, including during the recent board meeting, that our continued ACCESS Oklahoma project work would be impacted or even stopped due to our inability to enter the bond market,” Secretary of Transportation and OTA Executive Director Tim Gatz told the board in the memo.

Several factors impacted this decision. In recent months, legal matters pending before the Supreme Court, including the “validation” case, and an impending state investigative audit, have prevented access to the bond market.

The OTA will continue normal operations and maintenance to existing toll roads as well as moving forward with the conversion to cashless tolling. OTA will also continue to service existing debt. All of these activities are funded through toll receipts that are consistently meeting or exceeding financial projections while the ACCESS Oklahoma projects are funded through bond proceeds.

“Despite the tremendous transportation needs across the state, I feel it is prudent to take this difficult step,” Gatz said. “This is an unfortunate decision that the OTA does not take lightly due to the critical nature of the ACCESS Oklahoma plan and the effect it will have on all our consultants and their employees as well as many Oklahoma communities and businesses that rely on these necessary transportation improvements. While these delays slow progress for the state, it doesn’t eliminate the need for these critical transportation enhancements that will improve safety and the quality of life for all Oklahomans.”

OTA remains committed to its statutory mission to relieve traffic congestion throughout the state through the construction of legislatively authorized turnpike projects which increase safety for the traveling public in a conservative and fiscally responsible manner.

“Once these roadblocks are resolved and a path to the bond market is cleared, I am confident we will resume ACCESS Oklahoma and begin moving forward on behalf of the people of Oklahoma,” Gatz said.

Wowza

Wow, count me very surprised.

the Oklahoma SC decision should come any time now and most thought it would already be issued ..

Fantastic news and a massive win for property rights / property owners in Oklahoma. It's not completely dead yet, but I will drink a beer to this victory.

Huge bummer and hopefully they issue a ruling in the OTAs favor so we can get these much needed projects underway.

Not sure what has actually changed. OTA just had to stop limited planning operations due to lack of funding until a decision comes out from Supreme Court. Unless of course they already know the outcome of that case.

Not sure what has actually changed. OTA just had to stop limited planning operations due to lack of funding until a decision comes out from Supreme Court. Unless of course they already know the outcome of that case.

The big issue is that they're stopping ALL work, not just the Norman stuff. That includes the 3-lane designs for Turner Turnpike, etc. So that's the big change. Most people are focused on the Norman work, but Access was bigger than that...

It feels like this is a precursor to the Supreme Court ruling not going OTA’s way.