Read between the lines.Just making sure...

I wouldn't be super excited for two 10-15 towers as I would be if it included the 43 story tower. Heck, I'd even prefer just one 43 story tower and be way more happy than just two significantly smaller towers. Anything else is sugar on the top, which is why this development is so exciting.

That's where you went wrong.

This is not, nor has it ever been a development. It is literally the exact same thing as when you (or maybe it was Praedura) put 48 Chase towers through OKC's downtown. At this point it's random renderings that have been drawn up by God knows who.

You're not in the development stage until you have financing with that money assigned to specific projects in the development and a rough draft timeline of when things are going to happen. At this point, we don't even REALLY know who owns the land, let alone who could possibly develop it.

That's where you went wrong. Ok, now you're just trying to make this into something else. I understand this is conceptual.


This is not, nor has it ever been a development. It is literally the exact same thing as when you (or maybe it was Praedura) put 48 Chase towers through OKC's downtown. At this point it's random renderings that have been drawn up by God knows who.Seriously? It would take me months to make this.... this is by no means when Praedura used photoshop to put 48 Chase Towers downtown. Somebody put quite a bit into work into this. If you look at their website, they have tons of other large developments. This more than fantasy. They have site plans, floor layouts, multiple renderings as well as having the building to scale with other buildings, the new BLVD. placed along this. There are a couple of possibilities here with the developer spent some money or a lot of time putting this rendering together to either (a) build this himself with or without financing or (b) really trying to get hype going to flip this property for a big profit.


You're not in the development stage until you have financing with that money assigned to specific projects in the development and a rough draft timeline of when things are going to happen. At this point, we don't even REALLY know who owns the land, let alone who could possibly develop it.Have you been following this? I believe Midrise LLC owns the land I remember correctly and look at the website.... again, there are tons of other developments they have listed that are already built.

Also, not every development gets financing, some developers do finance themselves. Oh, and how do you know he doesn't already have financing ready?

If you want to settle for that, fine. Something is always better than nothing, isn't it?

You're just repeating what I said, lol and it's not settling.

Also, you forgot option D: nothing gets built at all--which no one wants

This site, whether it could be A, B, or C is WAAAAAY better than the Cotton Exchange project and that was going to be nice had the economy not plopped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Any significant development on this site will be great.

Well, not any, I guess. A huge hog farm would probably not be what we want.

Even something like LEVEL or the Edge would be a very good addition to that location. The two mid-rise towers would be fantastic. Obviously we all want the giant tower though.

Ok, now you're just trying to make this into something else. I understand this is conceptual.

Seriously? It would take me months to make this.... this is by no means when Praedura used photoshop to put 48 Chase Towers downtown. Somebody put quite a bit into work into this. If you look at their website, they have tons of other large developments. This more than fantasy. They have site plans, floor layouts, multiple renderings as well as having the building to scale with other buildings, the new BLVD. placed along this. There are a couple of possibilities here with the developer spent some money or a lot of time putting this rendering together to either (a) build this himself with or without financing or (b) really trying to get hype going to flip this property for a big profit.

It would take you months because you're not efficient at it. I believe Andrew said that an intern at any major firm could put this together in relatively short order…like a week if that. There are many more than 2 possibilities...


Have you been following this? I believe Midrise LLC owns the land I remember correctly and look at the website.... again, there are tons of other developments they have listed that are already built.

Also, not every development gets financing, some developers do finance themselves. Oh, and how do you know he doesn't already have financing ready?

I have been following this. Who is Mid-Rise OKC? What have they done in the past, what leads you to believe that this *IS* in development?

I never said it's not possible…But the level of confidence/expectation you hold for what has been shared here is entirely unwarranted. Entirely. And that, unfortunately, shades you from looking at two 10-story mid-rise towers objectively.

Had you never seen these renderings which are heretofore meaningless, and had someone presented these same renderings sans the 43-story tower, you'd be singing the praises of the project, because it's as nice as, if not nicer than, anything that's been proposed in OKC in the last 5 years.

^^^^^^^^

Great post and absolutely true. If the idea here is to construct the two smaller towers and flip the other parcel to someone who could build the hi-rise it would still be huge.

I would just like to know more about the developer to understand the the likelihood of any of it happening. Looked more yesterday and all I can find is a rural housing addition on a ranch outside of Tucson and some raw land deals in Texas. In fact I can't find much of anything that's not primarily a land deal, some in the tens of thousands of dollars and one or two of a couple million bucks.

Regarding the comment about the developer maybe already having the cash on hand to build the project as drawn and not needing financing, I would guess the project as drawn to be north of a half billion dollars to build. Nobody who has that kind of money is virtually invisible on the Internet. In fact, anyone who could even get that type of financing would be fairly easy to find info on. Newspaper articles, court filings, charitable giving, SOMETHING.

To me - unless there us another developer involved that we don't know about - the deal (and the reported buyer) has all of the hallmarks of straight-up land speculation with drawings designed to generate interest from potential (real) developers. Hopefully if this is the case something materializes quickly. Bricktown has plenty of experience with speculators jumping into a hot market and sitting on unimproved property for years, even decades, and I would hate to see a repeat of that pattern here.

Hopefully there is more here than meets the eye.

^^^^^^^^

Great post and absolutely true. If the idea here is to construct the two smaller towers and flip the other parcel to someone who could build the hi-rise it would still be huge.

I would just like to know more about the developer to understand the the likelihood of any of it happening. Looked more yesterday and all I can find is a rural housing addition on a ranch outside of Tucson and some raw land deals in Texas. In fact I can't find much of anything that's not primarily a land deal, some in the tens of thousands of dollars and one or two of a couple million bucks.

Regarding the comment about the developer maybe already having the cash on hand to build the project as drawn and not needing financing, I would guess the project as drawn to be north of a half billion dollars to build. Nobody who has that kind of money is virtually invisible on the Internet. In fact, anyone who could even get that type of financing would be fairly easy to find info on. Newspaper articles, court filings, charitable giving, SOMETHING.

To me - unless there us another developer involved that we don't know about - the deal (and the reported buyer) has all of the hallmarks of straight-up land speculation with drawings designed to generate interest from potential (real) developers. Hopefully if this is the case something materializes quickly. Bricktown has plenty of experience with speculators jumping into a hot market and sitting on unimproved property for years, even decades, and I would hate to see a repeat of that pattern here.

Hopefully there is more here than meets the eye.

All Real Estate is "speculation"... markets go up & down. But what you are saying is true about the marketing of property. I'm ok with it either way. I'm glad there is activity South of the BLVD., this is a very positive sign.

If I was to do Dean's Play the %, it would be this :

1. Limited Funding - Build 2 Mid Rise Towers only - 60%.
2. Limited Funding - Build 2 Mid Rise Towers ( phs 1)then add 43 story Tower (phs 2) - 25%.
3. Limited Funding - Build 2 Mid Rise Towers and Sell corner property to the highest bidder.... - 85%.
4. If fully funded / no restrictions, then Build 43 story & 2 Mid Rise Towers at the same time, ...would be the most economical approach to to construction ( lowest cost per unit )... 70 %.

It would take you months because you're not efficient at it. I believe Andrew said that an intern at any major firm could put this together in relatively short order…like a week if that. There are many more than 2 possibilities...



I have been following this. Who is Mid-Rise OKC? What have they done in the past, what leads you to believe that this *IS* in development?

I never said it's not possible…But the level of confidence/expectation you hold for what has been shared here is entirely unwarranted. Entirely. And that, unfortunately, shades you from looking at two 10-story mid-rise towers objectively.

Had you never seen these renderings which are heretofore meaningless, and had someone presented these same renderings sans the 43-story tower, you'd be singing the praises of the project, because it's as nice as, if not nicer than, anything that's been proposed in OKC in the last 5 years.You're right about me not being able to create a rendering that fast... everything else had nothing to do with my initial argument and you took a small line and made it a big deal.

I'll put together what **I** know and how likely I think it is a little later even though I have no idea how it relates to me wanting the 43 story tower more than than the two smaller ones. I understand what you're saying and I was being more than conservative when I called this a development. I was just speaking in reference to the rendering more or less.

Steve's latest take on the speculation for this site.

Bricktown Towers? | News OK (http://newsok.com/bricktown-towers/article/4869585)

I really don't know what to take from that article, but I'll give it to Steve in that even though he doesn't believe it to be real he is still digging for as much information as he can. It sounds like there is some serious work being done behind the scenes but it is not adding up. After they get all of their facts straight I won't be surprised if the land is purchased just to flip to make a little bit of money. Though I do believe they are exploring all of their options, and that includes building these towers.

One can pay for marketing.
One can benefit from free marketing.

I don't have an opinion which might be the more accurate scenario here. Given a myriad of possibilities, the current one being chattered and mused about ain't so bad.

Wow, Lackmeyer's still got it. I haven't seen such richness of detail in FACTS in a long time in journalism. I appreciate that he did this story even if he hated to do it.

We're incredibly lucky to have Steve in this city…anybody else and we'd simply super informative, and fantastic to see someone at that paper doing their job so well. I wish there were a way to buy just his articles, because I would do it out of sheer principle to promote good journalism.

I really don't see how you can make this development without knowing what's going to happen at the Co-op.

Wow, Lackmeyer's still got it. I haven't seen such richness of detail in FACTS in a long time in journalism. I appreciate that he did this story even if he hated to do it.+1

++1

I really don't see how you can make this development without knowing what's going to happen at the Co-op.

I agree. If the Co-op sells and relocated then the Lumber Yard high-rise project might be in the realm of possibilities. Since it looks like its going to stay, I just don't see it happening. It's simple economics. There are other places in the core I could see the same project happening though.

You guys are pontificating over something that is already in motion, with regards to the co-op site. Their relocation to the westside will drive the timeline here - and dropping the asking price. This is standard strategy. They aren't immediately ready to move and so the asking price is ridiculous just on the off chance a developer can't wait a few years.

You guys are pontificating over something that is already in motion, with regards to the co-op site. Their relocation to the westside will drive the timeline here - and dropping the asking price. This is standard strategy. They aren't immediately ready to move and so the asking price is ridiculous just on the off chance a developer can't wait a few years.

Actually the Co-op move has been delayed indefinitely hasn't it? IIRC they are actually trying to sell the tire plant property that was supposed to be their new location. The entire situation is very odd and the future even more unclear.

I would suggest emailing the owners of COOP to try and put pressure and let them know we'd value them more if they moved. I still want them to be located in or around OKC somewhere as they do add to the economy and produce jobs, but it would be nice to have a nice mixed-use development on that property.

I hate to break it to you, but they don't care what you and I think.

Steve's latest take on the speculation for this site.

Bricktown Towers? | News OK (http://newsok.com/bricktown-towers/article/4869585)


Was Christiansen aware that the boulevard actually ramps up immediately east of Oklahoma Avenue, and will be an elevated road passing half of the development?

That significantly devalues the location, imo. I'm not sure what the city or ODOT has in mind to deal with pedestrian traffic across/under the elevated part of that thing, but the elevation makes it more like being located on a freeway than on a city boulevard. Hopefully the western part of downtown can be spared from suffering the same fate. I don't see how retail is going to work there except for businesses that can focus and survive on the tenants of the development alone. I'm not saying the bouelvard precludes any development at the lumberyard, but I don't think it will be something of this scale and it will probably have to be pretty creative to not seem disconnected to BT and downtown by the new roadway.

As I had posted previously, the developers contacted ODOT to request detailed plans for that section, so yes, they are aware.

As I had posted previously, the developers contacted ODOT to request detailed plans for that section, so yes, they are aware.

That's good. I didn't mean to question Christiansen's competence or knowledge as Steve seemed to be. I just think the current Boulevard's elevation makes it a less desirable residential / retail location. Offices may work, but I think it will still feel more like a disconnected fringe development than it should if an elevated road passes in front of parts of it.

This is why we should tunnel under the tracks. The only elevated portion of theis section of BLVD should be the extreme east end where it connected near Bass Pro. Of course this would easily be done(expense-wise) if choosing Option D in conjuction.

This is why we should tunnel under the tracks. The only elevated portion of theis section of BLVD should be the extreme east end where it connected near Bass Pro. Of course this would easily be done(expense-wise) if choosing Option D in conjuction.

The east end of the Boulevard will be under the BNSF railroad tracks. The east end is designed pretty much exactly as you describe.

You are correct. I was thinking Alt C had it going over the tracks for some reason. Must have been a bad dream about a nightmare.

..I didn't mean to question Christiansen's competence or knowledge as Steve seemed to be...

Perhaps someone should be? I still have not seen any evidence of experience with developments of this - or really any - scale whatsoever. Why is nobody actively questioning this? It's a fair question.

Lol just like we should trust Rainey Williams?

Perhaps someone should be? I still have not seen any evidence of experience with developments of this - or really any - scale whatsoever. Why is nobody actively questioning this? It's a fair question.

The majority has questioned this from the beginning.

But even so, what is the big deal here? Either this developer will close on the land and flip it or develop it themselves... Or not buy it at all.

What is the great cause for concern?

Lol just like we should trust Rainey Williams?

It can at least be documented that Rainey Williams owns significant commercial property and has access to capital.

The majority has questioned this from the beginning.

I think this is an overstatement.


But even so, what is the big deal here? Either this developer will close on the land and flip it or develop it themselves... Or not buy it at all.

What is the great cause for concern?

There are other possibilities.

There are other possibilities.

Such as?

Perhaps someone should be? I still have not seen any evidence of experience with developments of this - or really any - scale whatsoever. Why is nobody actively questioning this? It's a fair question.

For me it just doesn't matter as much as questioning Rainey Williams. Lou C isn't tearing down the Stage Center.

Personally, I'd love to see this built. I'm going to turn into one of those finger-crossed "come on" kind of guys here.

Between this and a few of the small potential C2S projects, I really hope we start to see this kind of quality stuff going in.

I don't need every tower to be some world changing thing, and I actually like the design of this.

Perhaps someone should be? I still have not seen any evidence of experience with developments of this - or really any - scale whatsoever. Why is nobody actively questioning this? It's a fair question.

I think people are and Lackmeyer's article is largely focused on doing just that. It's certainly a fair question. I was just speaking more to the point of the boulevard's elevated section being an inherent negative for this site going forward. Whether it be with this concept or another, it will be a hurdle any developer will have to overcome.

I think people are and Lackmeyer's article is largely focused on doing just that. It's certainly a fair question. I was just speaking more to the point of the boulevard's elevated section being an inherent negative for this site going forward. Whether it be with this concept or another, it will be a hurdle any developer will have to overcome.

I'm not sure just how elevated the boulevard will be at this point.? I wouldn't be a bit surprised it's not at ground level for pretty much the entire length of the Lumber Yard.

I'm not sure just how elevated the boulevard will be at this point.? I wouldn't be a bit surprised it's not at ground level for pretty much the entire length of the Lumber Yard.

It should be it elevates in the middle of then Hawkins theatre

I'm not sure just how elevated the boulevard will be at this point.? I wouldn't be a bit surprised it's not at ground level for pretty much the entire length of the Lumber Yard.

Going west, after Oklahoma the Boulevard has to start descending to reach 8-10' below current grade well before the current position of the BNSF tracks.

Descends after the at-grade/street level intersection at Oklahoma and the Boulevard I thought.

Going west, after Oklahoma the Boulevard has to start descending to reach 8-10' below current grade well before the current position of the BNSF tracks.
Yes but you could build your site to match that declanation.

Yes but you could build your site to match that declanation.

I may be confused on what the boulevard is going to do at that point, but you have a good idea there.

I may be confused on what the boulevard is going to do at that point, but you have a good idea there.

As I understand it, the boulevard goes under the elevated RR tracks. When the boulevard crosses the canal, it is already descending to ground level to the West. Bouldersooner says it will reach ground level at the midway point of the Harkins Theatre, which is on the East boundary of the Lumber Yard site.

The canal is already quite below grade at Bass Pro too. If the Blvd is at-grade by that point, you don't really have anything to do other than build straight over the canal. It's similar in elevation to the path at Reno in front of the theater. In order to tie back in, it has to start elevating at some point near there anyway though. Remember, the tie-in on the east end has a bridge already...crossing over 40. Like in most areas, the complication comes from the north/south roads. Currently, Compress is the only real access to the Co-Op aside from a few dirt paths (one of which does go under the tracks...7th). Of course it's all prime real estate to redevelop later, but until the Co-Op is gone, you really need to keep access available for semi sized traffic. It's a bit weird today with large trucks driving through the U-Haul lot to get to the Co-Op in a zig-zag pattern since there isn't a straight path to the facility anymore.

The canal is nowhere close to below grade at Bass Pro.

The pillars for the elevation are already up near the canal and they are a bit higher than the bridge going over the canal for instance. I sent pics to Pete awhile back but don't think they got posted...

Personally, I'd love to see this built. I'm going to turn into one of those finger-crossed "come on" kind of guys here.

Between this and a few of the small potential C2S projects, I really hope we start to see this kind of quality stuff going in.

I don't need every tower to be some world changing thing, and I actually like the design of this.

I agree. It's a beautiful tower and a well planned development. I too really just want this for the boulevard, especially while it's still up in the air if we will end up getting a decent "boulevard."

I've archived all the off-topic posts elsewhere, with apologies to anyone who had their comments moved.


Back to discussing the proposed Bricktown Towers, please.

I've archived all the off-topic posts elsewhere, with apologies to anyone who had their comments moved.


Back to discussing the proposed Bricktown Towers, please.

Will you add them to a thread and open it to discussion? I feel as though there is great value in both what happens here for the enthusiasts, and what Steve does for the broader community. It might merit further discussion and context.

Will you add them to a thread and open it to discussion? I feel as though there is great value in both what happens here for the enthusiasts, and what Steve does for the broader community. It might merit further discussion and context.

Feel free to start a new thread on that subject.

Many of the moved posts were not about that at all.

Where did the posts go?

So anymore news on this? are these towers going to be built or is this another pipe dream

So anymore news on this? are these towers going to be built or is this another pipe dream
Pipedream...but fun pipedream.

When I saw this thread bumped I thought maybe there would really be new development. Out of everything speculated, this is definitely the least likely project to actually happen.

It does have at least one thing so many of the mystery towers dont have...an actual rendering LOL.

It does have at least one thing so many of the mystery towers dont have...an actual rendering LOL.

It has three times more money invested in renderings than OG&E. I would be happy if these three buildings were built on the Stage Center site.

Maybe I missed it here, why is this a pipe dream?

Maybe I missed it here, why is this a pipe dream?
Because it has an ACTUAL rendering, lol...

Maybe I missed it here, why is this a pipe dream?

It's a pipe dream at least until the Producers Co-op moves, which seems far less likely after recent developments.

It's a pipe dream at least until the Producers Co-op moves, which seems far less likely after recent developments.

Good point. Have you been down there when the Co-op is going? The smell to me is almost as bad as the Stockyards. I find it hard to believe someone will be wanting to pay thousands of dollars in rent each month or hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase a condo near that.