Using the definition you all have settled on, Little Rock doesn't have high rise residential. The buildings that you are referencing for Little Rock are much smaller than what is being proposed in OKC. The picture above shows River Market (240 feet) and First Security Center in Little Rock which only has condos on floors 11-14 (190 feet). Little Rock's next tallest residential building is 300 Third Tower which is only 218 feet. Regency and the Classen both tower over anything LR has.

Again, I don't doubt there is a huge market for high rise residential in OKC but you have to let the market prove itself first. It would actually hurt OKC for there to be several going up at once.

I would think a mixture of office and residential would be the best test of the high rise condo market in OKC. We know there is a market for spec, class A office space, so, if building a 20 story building, floor 1 would be lobby and amenities, 2-15 would be office and 16-20 would be condos. See how they presell and if the sales are bad, flip them to office and move on.

Let me just correct one thing about the Florida condo market.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/realestate/commercial/miamis-condo-market-rebounds-stoking-a-fresh-building-boom.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


Of the 22,000 condos created in downtown Miami during the boom years, only about 600 remain unsold

..

In the last two years, 25 new condo projects have been announced in the downtown area, although it is far from certain they will all be completed. Within sight of Brickell CityCentre alone, eight residential buildings are under construction, including three being developed by the Related Group, an affiliate of the Related Companies of New York.

...

Though Miami is not exactly known for its public transportation, ridership on both Metromover and Metrorail, an elevated train that connects suburbs north and south of Miami, has been steadily increasing — up 5.5 percent and 11.3 percent in February over the same period in the previous year.

The increased usage, in part, comes after an influx of young residents to downtown. The recent condo boom was driven primarily by cash-paying Latin American investors who either use the apartments occasionally or rent them out, often to young professionals working nearby, said Mr. Zalewski of Condo Vultures.


http://investinmiami.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Downtown-Miami-2020.jpg

I would think a mixture of office and residential would be the best test of the high rise condo market in OKC. We know there is a market for spec, class A office space, so, if building a 20 story building, floor 1 would be lobby and amenities, 2-15 would be office and 16-20 would be condos. See how they presell and if the sales are bad, flip them to office and move on.

This is a good idea.

I really think there is more of a market for high-rise residential here than developers are currently comfortable with. Once the market is tested and proven, projects will probably start being announced left and right like they were in many cities during the 2000s boom.

They've just got to prove the market first. Right now nobody really knows how well they'll sell. If they build one tower and it sells out in a certain amount of time (I don't know if a year or two is considered fast for something like that) then they'll build a few more. If those sell out quickly, then we'll get a flood of them.

TIF could be useful here in aiding the developing High Rise market, but I think the city needs to be smart about it so that

1) TIF is seen as an INCENTIVE to build URBAN in urban locations and not an expectation for developer profitability
2) TIF needs to have some demands for the city, such as retail frontage on the first 1-3 levels (depending upon the project size/scope), parking under the structure and/or underground for projects of certain FAR, density awards (more TIF for more density), partnership for utility relocation and/or retrofit, amenities
3) TIF needs to be tied to a Master Plan for the city to create critical massing in the greater downtown core
4) TIF has timing requirements and accountability that must be met or TIF repaid with potential penalty
5) Certain TIFs can be treated as a LOAN. These would include luxury residential/hotel or class A office where sufficient demand exists (or will be created) yet a TIF is needed for a certain economic stimulus or guarantee for bank financing. (This would be KEY for projects such as Clayco, FNC, Bricktown Towers, and other 'spec' development that contains Luxury elements that will likely guarantee positive net return on investment for developers - by using TIF to partner with developers the city can share in those proceeds rather than just waiting on taxation)
6) TIF oversight is needed and there needs to be ethics brought into the equation (TIF board chairman could not be the Chairman of the Chamber, TIF board should have 'normal' citizens and not just the movers/shakers, so on)

Perhaps I should create another thread for this point and post this list again; however, I believe this is a very creative use of TIF but there needs to be rules established so that OKC gets the best bang for our buck and developers are incentivized to build according to an urban vision and held accountable for it. Other cities have similar requirements (looking at you Vancouver Canada - which btw doesn't need to have TIF to incentivize development but does have strict requirements on highrise development); we can tailor ours to economic return rather than Vancouver's use of it for height/density ratio.

Oh I bet it's the same person. Look at the writing style, it has the same creative use of parentheses, slashes, and quotes

How can that be when everyone originally thought DocThunder was Soondoc? ;)

There is one way to figure this out:

DocThunder, do you think OKC could ever host the Olympics?
What are your thoughts on Braum's?
Have you ever heard of MagLev technology?
If you had money to build a tower in Norman, where would you build it and why?

Hahaha^^

Do you like train whistles?

How can that be when everyone originally thought DocThunder was Soondoc? ;)

Oh, you can have three screen names pretty easily.

I don't know. There are 5 or 6 posters that don't seem to understand basic economic principles.

Yeah, the recent uptick of emotionally driven nonsense has had me considering an extended break from here. It's just frustrating to hear the baseless demands over and over again.

Yeah, the recent uptick of emotionally driven nonsense has had me considering an extended break from here. It's just frustrating to hear the baseless demands over and over again.

As if the developers are going to succumb to our deepest desires, lol.

pretty renderings and wishes aside, I find myself at times pondering what financial level of cleanup will be necessary for the site.

Yeah, the recent uptick of emotionally driven nonsense has had me considering an extended break from here. It's just frustrating to hear the baseless demands over and over again.

Just block those posters whom don't add to the conversation. It makes a big difference.

Thanks! Let the culling begin.

That's been my opinion since I took a trip to DC last year. You don't have to have giant towers to have a great street interaction, and sometimes you don't even get that.
No way!!!! Are you for real? Only 1000 other people on here say that once a month, but by golly I'm glad to know you have confirmed it!

No way!!!! Are you for real? Only 1000 other people on here say that once a month, but by golly I'm glad to know you have confirmed it!

Is there a reason you've been more of an ass lately?

Is there a reason you've been more of an ass lately?

Lack of cougars.

Is there a reason you've been more of an ass lately?Sorry about that. I was just speaking what was on my mind. I'll step back.

Sorry about that. I was just speaking what was on my mind. I'll step back.

Sleep, plupan, sleep.

They've just got to prove the market first. Right now nobody really knows how well they'll sell. If they build one tower and it sells out in a certain amount of time (I don't know if a year or two is considered fast for something like that) then they'll build a few more. If those sell out quickly, then we'll get a flood of them.

Ah, this is where the Clayco development comes into major play. If it gets going and sells units, that's our first positive sign and a green flag for other developers.

No way!!!! Are you for real? Only 1000 other people on here say that once a month, but by golly I'm glad to know you have confirmed it!

No matter how hard you try, I'm not going back on my pledge not to block you.

Sorry about that. I was just speaking what was on my mind. I'll step back.

I really respect that you have a sense of when you have been disrespectful and always apologize. Some of us other posters might learn a lesson from the young guy on the forum.

I wonder if we could get twenty pages out of singing the praises of medium-scale urban infill... first we need a new thread called Mystery Medium-Scale Infill!

I posted what I did in an attempt to get a rise out of Platonic Panda.

I really respect that you have a sense of when you have been disrespectful and always apologize. Some of us other posters might learn a lesson from the young guy on the forum.I was being sarcastic Andrew.

I was being sarcastic Andrew.

Ok. I guess I take my compliment back then...

Ok. I guess I take my compliment back then...thats cute Andrew.

I'm really confused right now.

I'm really confused right now.i appreciate the original intention.

I posted what I did in an attempt to get a rise out of Platonic Panda.Not sure why. I actually agreed with you.

Pete, when this project is official or when any project is deemed official can we start new threads maybe with the titles in all caps followed by a height (kinda like on skyscraperpage.com) so we can enjoy the thread? I always feel like there's nothing of value to read in fantasy threads like this even though there may actually be valuable information buried.

Steve's latest update today states that this deal is dead. I always thought it was "too good to be true" for the location near the Producer's Co-Op especially. The land is apparently under contract to be purchased by Fred Mazaheri.

iI agree. I wonder what the best use of this space is with the Co-Op remaining. If the Co-Op is redeveloped, this site would be incredibly prime. I wouldn't be surprised if Mazaheri sits on this for some time.

Kind of hard to justify the asking price of the Co-Op and Lumeryard if you just plan to sit on it. Unless they can somehow pave it over for parking "temporarily," I don't see how you can buy it without some kind of near-term cash flow. I know they wouldn't have gotten their full ask, but still about dat asking price..

iI agree. I wonder what the best use of this space is with the Co-Op remaining. If the Co-Op is redeveloped, this site would be incredibly prime. I wouldn't be surprised if Mazaheri sits on this for some time.

I agree.

I understand and respect the Co-Op and it's place in OKC history, but right now its a blight on downtown and an impediment to redevelopment. Will be interesting to see if there is more pressure on the property after the boulevard opens.

The boulevard will be a major impediment to development, rather than the catalyst it should have been.

We will be paying out TIF dollars long after downtown is deemed economically "self-sufficient" just to overcome the access and frontage issues that this public works project will inflict on its surroundings. Considering that, we would probably save money by just tearing it down and fixing it ASAP. It seems as though the waste of its initial construction is unstoppable..

The boulevard will be a major impediment to development, rather than the catalyst it should have been.

We will be paying out TIF dollars long after downtown is deemed economically "self-sufficient" just to overcome the access and frontage issues that this public works project will inflict on its surroundings. Considering that, we would probably save money by just tearing it down and fixing it ASAP. It seems as though the waste of its initial construction is unstoppable..

Exactly - the lead vehicle in the ribbon cutting ceremony should be a D10 Cat with a ripper attachment.

U
The boulevard will be a major impediment to development, rather than the catalyst it should have been.

We will be paying out TIF dollars long after downtown is deemed economically "self-sufficient" just to overcome the access and frontage issues that this public works project will inflict on its surroundings. Considering that, we would probably save money by just tearing it down and fixing it ASAP. It seems as though the waste of its initial construction is unstoppable..

Sadly, the only people who might have done something just don't get it.....yet.

U

Sadly, the only people who might have done something just don't get it.....yet.

It will probably just be easier to find people who 'get it' and put them in position to do something about it. Some people will just need to get up to speed on their own time.

I noticed with changes to the website, they now have this called "The Hill @ Bricktown". Probably a mistake, but seems odd.

The Hill at Bricktown | Humphreys & Partners Architects, L.P. (http://www.humphreys.com/project/the-hill-at-bricktown/)

Under Project Status it says Built (which is better than canceled)

Project status: BUILT

LOL

Amazing how advanced life has become. We're able to make life look like the renderings!!!

Has someone checked the lumberyard in the last few hours? Maybe they were sneaky.

According to Steve this is completely dead. Personally, I wonder if this was a component of the Dallas/KC jealous project that was supposed to develop Bricktown all the way to the river with mixed-use development.

Hopefully one day OKC will be ready for a project on this scale.

According to Steve it was never alive. However, didn't this land just trade hands?

Man, seeing this bumped to the top got me all excited....

Major bummer.

I believe Steve finally went ahead and said what the "jealous" development was because it's dead. But it was so underwhelming, I forgot what it was.

I believe Steve finally went ahead and said what the "jealous" development was because it's dead. But it was so underwhelming, I forgot what it was.

That was a comment taken out of context made over two years ago and I got the impression Steve just gave up trying to explain himself and just went with it.

Hopefully we can end the "What would make Dallas Jealous Thread".

According to Steve it was never alive. However, didn't this land just trade hands?

I know for a fact it was a live project in the sense that the intent was there. Things had to fall into place to make it happen. They didn't. I was involved in one of the things that had to happen.

I believe Steve finally went ahead and said what the "jealous" development was because it's dead. But it was so underwhelming, I forgot what it was.

It was not underwhelming. It sounded like a Cox Center redevelopment with a Canal extension and collaboration of many developers (a la failed Triangle). OKC has yet to get a project that requires many movers and shakers to work TOGETHER. Remains to be seen if it can be done here.

I know for a fact it was a live project in the sense that the intent was there. Things had to fall into place to make it happen. They didn't. I was involved in one of the things that had to happen.

Can you shed any insight onto what DIDN'T fall into place that ultimately killed the deal?

Can you shed any insight onto what DIDN'T fall into place that ultimately killed the deal?

Knowing nothing about this project I can say with completely authority, it was lack of money.

Knowing nothing about this project I can say with completely authority, it was lack of money.
That could be said of most plans that don't go forward. However, timing, liquidity, changes withing organizations, changes in competition, etc., all can torpedo projects and change the wisdom or capability of investing the large sums of money like this project requires. I am not at liberty to say what was happening on this one. But, I do not believe it was a pipe dream based on what I know. Projects this large are always delicate and complicated and many, many don't go forward for a myriad of reasons. As Pete always says, there are lots of moving parts. There is a reason just anyone can't do projects of this size.

According to Steve it was never alive. However, didn't this land just trade hands?I know for a fact it was a live project in the sense that the intent was there. Things had to fall into place to make it happen. They didn't. I was involved in one of the things that had to happen.

Don't get me wrong. I always thought this was a serious attempt by someone and I wish it would have worked out. Alas, Oklahoma City Blvd through this area is a serious obstacle to over come and is going to make any development south very difficult. As for the 'jealous' project - it had two major barriers: I-40 and OKC Boulevard.

To the comments talking about Steve's DFW/K.C. jealous remarks, to take a page from Swake's play book, I can say with complete authority, that this was part of the large vision he finally let us in on. Remember, he mentioned that there would have been a master district or fabric from the river all the way to the CBD. More than likely, BT and THIS project in particular would have been the center catalyst for it.

I would bet some money on it that this would have been the new master district that we would call "Low Town." You know, because it's down closer by the river and South of everything. It would have been awesome.

This "project" had ZERO to do with Steve's "jealous" remarks. Trust me.

All i know is since all the jealous in Dallas & KC talk started, there have probably been 30 projects announced in the DFW area that have made me jealous!

To the comments talking about Steve's DFW/K.C. jealous remarks, to take a page from Swake's play book, I can say with complete authority, that this was part of the large vision he finally let us in on. Remember, he mentioned that there would have been a master district or fabric from the river all the way to the CBD. More than likely, BT and THIS project in particular would have been the center catalyst for it.

I would bet some money on it that this would have been the new master district that we would call "Low Town." You know, because it's down closer by the river and South of everything. It would have been awesome.

"Take a page from Swake's playbook..."
"I can say with complete authority..."
"More than likely.."
"I would bet some money on it..."
"The new master district that we would call 'Low Town'"
"You know, because it's down closer by the river and south of everything"
"It would have been awesome"

I'm just impressed right now that all of the above comments were rolled into one post, and not a bunch of crazy people all talking to (at) each other...

This "project" had ZERO to do with Steve's "jealous" remarks. Trust me.

Ok, I'll take your word for it, I suppose. However, in my opinion I can't really see how this wasn't going to be somehow incorporated after what he said.


"Take a page from Swake's playbook..."
"I can say with complete authority..."
"More than likely.."
"I would bet some money on it..."
"The new master district that we would call 'Low Town'"
"You know, because it's down closer by the river and south of everything"
"It would have been awesome"

I'm just impressed right now that all of the above comments were rolled into one post, and not a bunch of crazy people all talking to (at) each other...

A culmination of the entire thread condensed for easy reading.
And, yes, that post was supposed to be semi-sarcastic, except for the part where I genuinely believed (I'm trusting Urbanized here), this was somehow tied to the "jealous" development.