Be happy that they are looking at residential! It doesn't need to be 43 stories all. Two 20-story residential towers, in that area, will be an amazing addition to downtown.I disagree. Sorry, but color me "bleh" about most buildings under 25 stories. Even at that, it is minuscule and doesn't add much. If all we are getting is two 20 story towers, then for me it's moving on to the next project hoping for something better.

I disagree. Sorry, but color me "bleh" about most buildings under 25 stories. Even at that, it is minuscule and doesn't add much. If all we are getting is two 20 story towers, then for me it's moving on to the next project hoping for something better.

It will be good infill even with just 20 story towers. Getting more people to live downtown is key to its revival and the success of proposed and yet to be proposed services. It just won't have the wow factor deserving of the hype that was given the original concept image for this project.

It would be nice if the original 43 story tower wasn't shown. 2, 20 story towers sucks if that what we're getting. These small 20-40 story buildings are cool, but wake me up when we get worth noting preferably above 40 stories. Anything taller than that will just give me the giggles.

Go to sleep now Sleeping Beauty... we'll wake you 40 years from now with a kiss from a Queen Cougar....lmao.

It will be good infill even with just 20 story towers. Getting more people to live downtown is key to its revival and the success of proposed and yet to be proposed services. It just won't have the wow factor deserving of the hype that was given the original concept image for this project.This is my last post on this because this is getting redundant and people have already been hearing one poster moaning about taller towers.

I could not disagree more. I will not like this project if it is below 40(if it is 38 or 39, we'll talk :p) stories. Plain and simple. I don't care what it does for street and blah blah blah. I want it taller. Two 20 story towers does nothing for me. Absolutely nothing. So if it does end up being two 20 story tower, than have fun with those small towers.

I disagree. Sorry, but color me "bleh" about most buildings under 25 stories. Even at that, it is minuscule and doesn't add much. If all we are getting is two 20 story towers, then for me it's moving on to the next project hoping for something better.

What color is that on the spectrum?

This is my last post on this because this is getting redundant and people have already been hearing one poster moaning about taller towers.

I could not disagree more. I will not like this project if it is below 40(if it is 38 or 39, we'll talk :p) stories. Plain and simple. I don't care what it does for street and blah blah blah. I want it taller. Two 20 story towers does nothing for me. Absolutely nothing. So if it does end up being two 20 story tower, than have fun with those small towers.

Are you sure you are interested in older women? With all this "moaning" about small towers doing nothing for you I'm starting to wonder...

Are you sure you are interested in older women? With all this "moaning" about small towers doing nothing for you I'm starting to wonder...I don't understand what you're getting at. How does me not liking small towers have anything to do with me liking cougars and milfs? o___0

What color is that on the spectrum?Somewhere near my opinion?

I so wish Producer's CoOp would realize they're holding up a lot of development, and decide to move somewhere else. It had it's place near downtown a few decades ago. That time has come and gone, and they're now an eyesore from I-40.

odor nuisance yes, but eyesore? I happen to like an industrial look like that, and would love if whatever replaces it pays some homage to its roots by including some architecture that resembles parts of the plant.

I would guess that something built here would be more in the 10 to 15 range, which is totally fine and might be the smartest investment at this time. If you're hoping for 20-40 stories, you might go ahead and readjust your expectations now. Not because OKC can't do big things, but because I think it would be very risky investment to build higher in this undeveloped area while competing with the new residential tower(s) on the Stage Center site. Remember, these things aren't built for skylines or OKCTalk posters, but for real markets and in real contexts.

I would guess that something built here would be more in the 10 to 15 range, which is totally fine and might be the smartest investment at this time. If you're hoping for 20-40 stories, you might go ahead and readjust your expectations now. Not because OKC can't do big things, but because I think it would be very risky investment to build higher in this undeveloped area while competing with the new residential tower(s) on the Stage Center site. Remember, these things aren't built for skylines or OKCTalk posters, but for real markets and in real contexts.

Yeah, and the best chance of ever getting a residential tower of 40+ is if downtown grows into a vibrant urban district where many people are willing to pay a premium to live there. That won't happen if developers are indifferent to the "street and blah blah blah" stuff.

20 story towers will add a lot to this city if they go in the right places.

odor nuisance yes, but eyesore? I happen to like an industrial look like that, and would love if whatever replaces it pays some homage to its roots by including some architecture that resembles parts of the plant.

Off topic a bit here, but the new Jordan commercial with Russell Westbrook (as the trainer) had a scene shot at the co-op site with the kid running by it. Russell said he'd do the commercial if it was filmed in OKC, which it was.

Off topic a bit here, but the new Jordan commercial with Russell Westbrook (as the trainer) had a scene shot at the co-op site with the kid running by it. Russell said he'd do the commercial if it was filmed in OKC, which it was.

that is a great commercial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxKzKxfgM_0

That's a great commercial, and at the 4 second mark you've got Devon and the Colcord from the downtown basketball court.

This design (albeit a fairy tale at this point) gets me more fired up than any other project currently projected/speculated for downtown. I don't even care if it's 8 stories if it interacts with the boulevard as drawn up.

This design (albeit a fairy tale at this point) gets me more fired up than any other project currently projected/speculated for downtown. I don't even care if it's 8 stories if it interacts with the boulevard as drawn up.

Agreed

cool commercial, didn't realize it was filmed in OKC but yes indeed!

Off topic a bit here, but the new Jordan commercial with Russell Westbrook (as the trainer) had a scene shot at the co-op site with the kid running by it. Russell said he'd do the commercial if it was filmed in OKC, which it was.


I like that in that shot, the co-op is referred to as the "abandoned part of town."

Kevin Durant & Russell Westbrook are among the best ambassadors who promote Oklahoma City. Let's cherish them while they are a viable asset to our city.

Kevin Durant & Russell Westbrook are among the best ambassadors who promote Oklahoma City. Let's cherish them while they are a viable asset to our city.

Agreed. We got really lucky with the character of the guys on the Thunder.

I could totally see Russell Westbrook buying a penthouse in a highrise development such as this. ...

This design (albeit a fairy tale at this point) gets me more fired up than any other project currently projected/speculated for downtown. I don't even care if it's 8 stories if it interacts with the boulevard as drawn up.

Agreed. The depicted illustration reminds me of L.A Live (and, no, I don't think we should aspire to be anything like Los Angeles or California... :p ) and a vibrant entertainment and housing area that when you see on t.v. makes you want to visit it. I think if we do see anything at this point that is even remotely close to the current proposal as is, could be a huge boon to not only Bricktown, but OKC itself. Let's hope for the best at this point.


I could totally see Russell Westbrook buying a penthouse in a highrise development such as this. ...

You better believe it. That'll also play into getting free agents here. Some people don't think of the long term ramifications of things like this. It's the small details as you mention that can attract athletes or even other "big" names to the city. I'm always reminded of an episode of Dallas Cowboys Hard Knocks in which it showed Marion Barber in a suite/penthouse just outside downtown Dallas. You can see he's up in a high rise of some sort and can see how close he is to downtown. Some people like this "flashy" type of stuff.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38DUO_atlHk

Pete, have you or any one heard any more rumblings about this project? With all the things about to happen in BT, I think this place would be awesome. When you factor in that the Clayco residential may be delayed, this would be the spot to be in. I think Westbrook or other Thunder players just might buy a Penthouse there! I love the renderings and would think this would be a home run.

Believe the property is still under contract and the developers are still working towards the project, just on a scaled-down basis.

Scaled down, what the heck? :wink: Hey, glad to hear it is still a possibility. Maybe they are only scaling it down a couple of floors. lol Thanks for the update.

Pete, have you or any one heard any more rumblings about this project? With all the things about to happen in BT, I think this place would be awesome. When you factor in that the Clayco residential may be delayed, this would be the spot to be in. I think Westbrook or other Thunder players just might buy a Penthouse there! I love the renderings and would think this would be a home run.

Westbrook has a 1.9 million place out in far NE OKC. KD already has a place at the Hill. A lot of players never 'buy', due to the short term player contracts.

... A lot of players never 'buy', due to the short term player contracts.

Not to mention the ones who experience being traded and being the last one to know.

I disagree. Sorry, but color me "bleh" about most buildings under 25 stories. Even at that, it is minuscule and doesn't add much. If all we are getting is two 20 story towers, then for me it's moving on to the next project hoping for something better.

I DJ'd in Little Rick recently and noticed 2 new towers about that shape and size in close proximity to one another and was impressed and even a little jealous. Would I love a 40+ story tower... Yes. However, even 2 midrises in that location would be awesome!

I DJ'd in Little Rick recently and noticed 2 new towers about that shape and size in close proximity to one another and was impressed and even a little jealous. Would I love a 40+ story tower... Yes. However, even 2 midrises in that location would be awesome!

I lived in Little Rock for little while and some of the spec development they were getting in the mid-2000s was pretty impressive. I would be happy for OKC to get mid-rise residential even on that scale. One thing they have managed to do is build parking under the structure...something developers in OKC still don't understand in 2015.

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/7485ae_8bcd994ad2274b06ae63cbf2fd9c4113.jpg_srz_94 0_630_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz

I lived in Little Rock for little while and some of the spec development they were getting in the mid-2000s was pretty impressive. I would be happy for OKC to get mid-rise residential even on that scale. One thing they have managed to do is build parking under the structure...something developers in OKC still don't understand in 2015.

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/7485ae_8bcd994ad2274b06ae63cbf2fd9c4113.jpg_srz_94 0_630_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz

3-4 buildings on this scale would be great for that part of Bricktown.

The thing is that that's a significant massing impact in Little Rock. In our downtown, most everything is 6-15 stories. You probably don't notice that because we have a compact CBD high-rise core that makes everything around it look small. That's why we have such acute parking issues.

However, 1) if I were to guess anything for this site, it would be more pedestrian; 2) if we have to have skyscrapers, this could be a good low-impact area to relegate them to. Superblock away down there, given the "boulevard" that ODOT apparently is going to deliver.

^^like

The nice thing about 10-15 story buildings is that they're relatively low-risk from an investment perspective. They're a lot cheaper to build than 25+ story towers. We've gotten a number of hotels in that size over the last several years. They don't really add much to our skyline unless you're at the exact right angle, but they're great at street level.

Personally I think OKC should try to get as many buildings in this range as we can. Drop thirty or forty 10 story structures in our downtown adjacent areas over the next twenty years and you'll see more benefits than you ever would with two or three 500 footers.

That's been my opinion since I took a trip to DC last year. You don't have to have giant towers to have a great street interaction, and sometimes you don't even get that.

I wonder if we could get twenty pages out of singing the praises of medium-scale urban infill... first we need a new thread called Mystery Medium-Scale Infill!

we need a new thread called Mystery Medium-Scale Infill!

+1

I wonder if we could get twenty pages out of singing the praises of medium-scale urban infill...

Both have their place.

I was in Dallas this weekend and it sure is an awesome city. I love how they have a tall, vibrant CBD surrounded by virtually endless medium-scale infill. No grass lots there. It would be great to see Bricktown and Midtown fill in that way.

I wonder if we could get twenty pages out of singing the praises of medium-scale urban infill... first we need a new thread called Mystery Medium-Scale Infill!

I propose the following:

OG&E Energy Center - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=OG+E+Energy+Center)

Seriously, Little Rock has some good stuff going on, kudos to them. However, the Clayco development IS our Little Rock type of development that's been mentioned. Of course Clayco is talking about scaling back, at least the timeline, but the proposal for the SC block and the one just South will be huge for OKC. I mean, HUGE. We're talking on terms of the downtown population, bringing more businesses, stores, both grocery and retail, etc. into the CBD. Over the years, developers will see that it's okay to proceed with projects like this and that's when we'll start seeing projects like the BT Towers (the actual rendering above) come to fruition.

A lot will also hinge on what becomes of the CCC block. If development is done to it's potential there, that could also be a massive game changer for both the CBD as well as BT.

One step at a time.

Don't be sillly. Little Rock doesn't have any development on par with the 4 buildings Clayco has proposed for OGE.

This project should go-forward as originally designed. The demand for this type of product is still high. If this group builds all (3) structures as shown, it will be the most desired place for an apartment or condo. There is little risk for High Demand.

...also, if this group build all 3 at the same time, and the Clayco group builds theirs at the same time....just think of the Perception of OKC is at that point......? Thriving. ..and that is how you lower your "risks". Then, OKC is still the talk of "how are you guys doing this...? Why is OKC still going ?" Build it and they will come.

I think the assumption of "build it and they will come" is a pretty quick way to financial failure. Only by investing some serious money into properly conducted market research can one get a real feel for the specific demand, and then there is still risk.

It amazes me how so many on here dismiss risk as a business consideration. And, how they dismiss $100 million as being easy to put at risk.

Don't be sillly. Little Rock doesn't have any development on par with the 4 buildings Clayco has proposed for OGE.

I agree.

While the midrises Little Rock got during the mid 2000s were pretty impressive, especially for a city that size, they are below what is proposed on the Clayco site.

I agree.

While the midrises Little Rock got during the mid 2000s were pretty impressive, especially for a city that size, they are below what is proposed on the Clayco site.

Yeah, but guess what? They still have an urban design that you can actually lean against. Clayco may be better but it's still just conceptual...at this point.

Yeah, but guess what? They still have an urban design that you can actually lean against. Clayco may be better but it's still just conceptual...at this point.

Correct. The thing is, the Little Rock midrises were completely spec development and the economy there has never been anywhere near as hot as OKC has been over the past few years. Yet, they were built anyways.

To compare, one would have to know about other available housing options, construction vs rental costs, demand characteristics, etc. at the time, etc. To say that we should or shouldn't at this time based on what LR or any other city did or didn't do is not really realistic, just good conversation.

I think the assumption of "build it and they will come" is a pretty quick way to financial failure. Only by investing some serious money into properly conducted market research can one get a real feel for the specific demand, and then there is still risk.

It amazes me how so many on here dismiss risk as a business consideration. And, how they dismiss $100 million as being easy to put at risk.
It's because it's somebody else's risk, and someone else's $100 million.

I think the assumption of "build it and they will come" is a pretty quick way to financial failure. Only by investing some serious money into properly conducted market research can one get a real feel for the specific demand, and then there is still risk.

It amazes me how so many on here dismiss risk as a business consideration. And, how they dismiss $100 million as being easy to put at risk.

So tell me, what are the risk...? Lets run this mouse trap and see where it leads us. A Condo Developer has $$$ 100 M to spend in a property ....and is based in Tampa, Fl. Condo market is over saturated, the lending market is tight. The economy is increasing at only a snails pace of 1-2 %. Snowbirds from Northeast are still coming down, but with less to spend. Finding smaller less expensive properties to buy. ....So Florida is not a a low risk / high reward as it has been in the past. It is now a High Risk / Low Reward equation. ....so let's move this $$$ 100 M. to Dallas or Houston, The Tower Condo Market is active, and their are several new properties already filling up. Multiple projects ( towers are already ) to begin construction, and should make this market "Tight w/ an 85-90%" and your project would not open for 18 months. This would be a moderate exposure / with moderate reward....?

Now lets go back to my first statement..... High Demand / Low Inventory. ...this is what they look for when putting ( Millions at risk )...The is always risk in business, but the "research" is placing your product in the strongest position to beat the competition.

So tell me, what are the risk...? Lets run this mouse trap and see where it leads us. A Condo Developer has $$$ 100 M to spend in a property ....and is based in Tampa, Fl. Condo market is over saturated, the lending market is tight. The economy is increasing at only a snails pace of 1-2 %. Snowbirds from Northeast are still coming down, but with less to spend. Finding smaller less expensive properties to buy. ....So Florida is not a a low risk / high reward as it has been in the past. It is now a High Risk / Low Reward equation. ....so let's move this $$$ 100 M. to Dallas or Houston, The Tower Condo Market is active, and their are several new properties already filling up. Multiple projects ( towers are already ) to begin construction, and should make this market "Tight w/ an 85-90%" and your project would not open for 18 months. This would be a moderate exposure / with moderate reward....?

Now lets go back to my first statement..... High Demand / Low Inventory. ...this is what they look for when putting ( Millions at risk )...The is always risk in business, but the "research" is placing your product in the strongest position to beat the competition.

Obviously you've never tried to get financing for a $100 million project, or tried to raise the capital required to GET the financing. Or even a $10 million. Investors/financial institutions don't want feel good theories, they want as much factual information as you can provide, as well as your history of being right with similar projects. Contrary to what many think, they just don't hand out money because someone says they think this is cool, or is a sure bet.

Risks include cost overruns which make the market pricing too high... or economic lapses and bad real estate markets (people who wanted to rent or buy can't sell their current housing for what they thought or at all, meaning they can't buy yours).... that when you finish, the economy is rotten (2008-2014 for example).... that your demand survey wasn't correct.... etc. , etc., etc.

Not to mention - how do you think Florida got into the trouble it is in? Developers over-saturated the market. What do you think would happen in OKC if 4 high rise condo developments went up at one time.

Hell, I remember reading problems Austin had when the Austonian first opened. People weren't used to that yet. Once they did, condos started going up left and right. When the first Clayco residential fills up quickly, OKC will have developers lining up.

So tell me, what are the risk...? Lets run this mouse trap and see where it leads us. A Condo Developer has $$$ 100 M to spend in a property ....and is based in Tampa, Fl. Condo market is over saturated, the lending market is tight. The economy is increasing at only a snails pace of 1-2 %. Snowbirds from Northeast are still coming down, but with less to spend. Finding smaller less expensive properties to buy. ....So Florida is not a a low risk / high reward as it has been in the past. It is now a High Risk / Low Reward equation. ....so let's move this $$$ 100 M. to Dallas or Houston, The Tower Condo Market is active, and their are several new properties already filling up. Multiple projects ( towers are already ) to begin construction, and should make this market "Tight w/ an 85-90%" and your project would not open for 18 months. This would be a moderate exposure / with moderate reward....?

Now lets go back to my first statement..... High Demand / Low Inventory. ...this is what they look for when putting ( Millions at risk )...The is always risk in business, but the "research" is placing your product in the strongest position to beat the competition.

DocThunder's posts are starting to look eerily familiar:


OKC is far from any "overbuilding". We have space-a-plenty. If this developer is an ( Outside ) group, then his concern is purely ROI and 40 stories helps secure that. It becomes the place to be, thus values will remain steady for each unit. This complex brings its own "self-contained environment" of Large / High End / Mixed-use / Destination point and would thrive. On the Blvd, Highly Visible to all.


If the developer is local, then this project will most likely be scaled back or cut due to ( tight financing / short leash ) approach.

Was starting to wonder the same thing myself.

No worries, if its the same person then they'll meet the same fate.

I don't know. There are 5 or 6 posters that don't seem to understand basic economic principles.

Obviously you've never tried to get financing for a $100 million project, or tried to raise the capital required to GET the financing. Or even a $10 million. Investors/financial institutions don't want feel good theories, they want as much factual information as you can provide, as well as your history of being right with similar projects. Contrary to what many think, they just don't hand out money because someone says they think this is cool, or is a sure bet.

Risks include cost overruns which make the market pricing too high... or economic lapses and bad real estate markets (people who wanted to rent or buy can't sell their current housing for what they thought or at all, meaning they can't buy yours).... that when you finish, the economy is rotten (2008-2014 for example).... that your demand survey wasn't correct.... etc. , etc., etc.

I thought you were asking from the Developers point of view. That is what you said. You now want me to explain it to from Oklahoma Financial institutions point of view. Fine, find a financial institution that commonly practices in this type of business venture, thus not one in Oklahoma. ... and a also selecting a banker that doesn't get nervous when he sees an "M" on the note.

i was speaking of the Developers risk and the market itself....and again, High Demand / Low Inventory.

How do you know there is high demand here? Could just as easily be low demand/low inventory. I don't think that's the case but no one will know until the first one goes up. After that the risk goes away.

I don't know. There are 5 or 6 posters that don't seem to understand basic economic principles.
^^^^^^
This.

Oh I bet it's the same person. Look at the writing style, it has the same creative use of parentheses, slashes, and quotes

There is one way to figure this out:

DocThunder, do you think OKC could ever host the Olympics?
What are your thoughts on Braum's?
Have you ever heard of MagLev technology?
If you had money to build a tower in Norman, where would you build it and why?

How do you know there is high demand here? Could just as easily be low demand/low inventory. I don't think that's the case but no one will know until the first one goes up. After that the risk goes away.

Thats a pretty fair question. I would say that since OKC basically has zero high rise residential currently, not including the older one DT, that it would be in demand. OKC is a much larger place than LR and several other cities that have these and we don't. In fact, rumors abound that people would love to live DT in something like this but nothing is available. Put up 1-2 towers and see how fast they fill up and go from there. I don't think 4 at once is wise, but a BT Tower would be ideal because it is part of DT and BT. Clayco is nice because it will be s part of DT and MBG and the future park.

I say the biggest question is will anyone ever build a high rise in this town with parking below? It amazes me how we seem to be the only people on the planet that think this can't be done. More accurately, we cheap out from doing it. 499 Sheridan has Devon money all over it and will be asking for TIF, yet can't seem to find a way to spend the little extra for underground parking. Same goes for Clayco and I think that is wrong. They want the assistance but then not want to spend a little extra to do this.