I think a separate thread about this issue is in order. It relates somewhat to the passenger connection, but really is its own issue.

Read ODOT's press release here: http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/newsmedia/press/2014/14-006_next_steps_outlined_in_Sooner_Sub_sale_process _and%20facts_about_rail_line.pdf

They received 4 bids: BNSF Railway, Watco (short line conglomerate and Stillwater Central owners - current operators), Iowa Pacific (owner various lines and operater of Eastern Flyer) and Fortress, Inc. (capital company and owners of Florida East Coast and the future All Aboard Florida passenger rail).

I'm impressed that ODOT received bids other than BNSF and Watco. That really shows the potential importance of this line. I'm also impressed that the 2 extra bidders are entering into private passenger rail. That could bode well for future operations.

ODOT points out that BNSF owns the rails on which the Heartland Flyer uses, and that shouldn't present an issue for potential future passenger rail operations...

The level interest suggest that the State should be able to get a good overall price for this line, but I believe that citizens need to ensure that passenger rail projections are set in the contract before the line is transferred.

To build upon your thoughts - I think we must make sure provisions in any sale contract will make any passenger service viable. This means any operator s granted access to Tulsa Union and OKC Santa Fe station - no exceptions. Passenger service on this line must receive priority over freight - no sitting on a siding for multiple freights to pass. The line needs to be upgraded to support 60 - 75 mph speeds. A minimum of 8 round trip passenger trains per week day must be part of the service - I think at least 3 or 4 should be express trains from OKC to Tulsa. Weekend service still needs to be frequent enough to make it a real option.

Just a few thoughts. I still do not think the state should sell the line, but it does appear inevitable.

I know in Tulsa it's not guaranteed that the Art Deco Union Depot would be used as the terminus. The Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame is currently in that building and before that it was converted to offices so much of the transportation programming is gone. Ideas I've heard include having a new multimodal transportation hub on the tracks between the Brady and Blue Dome areas (2 blocks east) that could also include a new bus depot and could tie into future commuter rail lines and downtown streetcars, similar to what OKC is doing with Santa Fe. A second stop by the BOK Center has also been discussed and could be used for special events (like how Victory station is used in Dallas).

^ That sounds like an excellent location. Makes perfect sense. I wasn't sure how settled the museum was n Tulsa Union Station.

Let's just hope that Berkshire Hathaway gets outbid!

BNSF will be awarded the line. They could have bid $1.50. This is about the "best overall bid" to support the energy industry. BNSF contributes heavily to Mary Fallin, who is over Gary Ridley.

This whole thing is sickening.

BNSF will be awarded the line. They could have bid $1.50. This is about the "best overall bid" to support the energy industry. BNSF contributes heavily to Mary Fallin, who is over Gary Ridley.

This whole thing is sickening.

It's a damned dirty shame...

BNSF will be awarded the line. They could have bid $1.50. This is about the "best overall bid" to support the energy industry. BNSF contributes heavily to Mary Fallin, who is over Gary Ridley.

This whole thing is sickening.

They do? In 2013, their only contribution was to the Oklahoma Speaker's Ball (mind you, $10,000). Using the old OK system of researching contributions, I see one more entry to Mary Fallin for Lt. Gov. in 1998 - a contribution of $500.

Perhaps I am thinking of a different company. My money is still on BNSF.

Perhaps I am thinking of a different company. My money is still on BNSF.

Not Union Pacific:
UNION PACIFIC CORPORATION FUND FOR EFFECTIVE GOVERNMENT FRIENDS OF SENATOR JAY PAUL GUMM 2006 106027 $500.00
Union Pacific Corp. Fund Mike Mazzei for State Senate 2008 108003 $2,000.00
Union Pacific Corporation Fund Friends Of Dennis R. Bailey In 2010 110180 $250.00
Union Pacific Railroad Company Oklahoma Speaker's Ball, Inc. 204067 $250.00

Not BNSF:

BNSF RailPAC Friends For Lewis Moore 2010 110151 $500.00
BNSF Railway Company Oklahoma Speaker's Ball, Inc. 204067 $10,000.00

No contributions from Watco, Iowa Pacific or Fortress in the database period...

https://www.ok.gov/ethics/crs/index.php

If we're going to debate the consequences and hope to have an effective voice when listing our concerns, let's make sure our assumptions are correct.

The line needs to be upgraded to support 60 - 75 mph speeds.

This is not possible.

This is not possible.

It does take quite a few turns...

http://gyazo.com/629338f221b9bef46b3090d643a3a9df.png

This is not possible.

To be clear I did not mean that as an average speed for the trip. Higher speeds are possible with some alignment changes to increase the radius of several curves. The grade crossings would require some work as well.

There are certainly some stretches that could support higher speeds. But others look very "kinked".

^ Exactly.

To be clear I did not mean that as an average speed for the trip. Higher speeds are possible with some alignment changes to increase the radius of several curves. The grade crossings would require some work as well.

I'd like to see this done. All Class I railroads have done this at one time or another. Look at high resolution satellite views of BNSF's transcon and you'll easily see they've (AT&SF) shortened their routes before by reducing curvature allowing for higher speeds than what were previously capable. Is it worth it though for BNSF on this route? I can't see them excited about running freight at 40MPH. I'm betting they'd like to transfer their loads faster.

It's such a short stage length, it doesn't really matter. 60 miles at 40mph is about an hour and a half. 60 miles at 60 is an hour. To a tanker car full of oil, that 30 minutes of time doesn't really matter. To the businessman, commuter, or leisure passenger, that extra 30 minutes would matter quite a bit.

It's such a short stage length, it doesn't really matter. 60 miles at 40mph is about an hour and a half. 60 miles at 60 is an hour. To a tanker car full of oil, that 30 minutes of time doesn't really matter. To the businessman, commuter, or leisure passenger, that extra 30 minutes would matter quite a bit.

I'm not even sure it would matter to the traveler. There is so much more convenience involved in NOT having a car that it doesn't need to be a bullet train to be desirable.

Repost from the passenger rail thread - The Tulsa World has a good article recapping the first Eastern Flyer run. Oklahoma's Eastern Flyer takes first voyage - Tulsa World: Sapulpa Business

"Ed Ellis, president of Iowa Pacific, which is operating demonstration rides, said he hopes the Oklahoma Department of Transportation chooses his company to run the line. If so, Ellis said the plan would be to quickly have eight trains running between Tulsa and Oklahoma City during the week, as well as five running each weekend.

Antonio Perez, president and CEO of Talgo, Inc., a Seattle, Wash., a high-speed train manufacturer also made the trip and said he saw a great opportunity in northeast Oklahoma."

This solidifies Iowa Pacific's interest in the line, and the prospects are intriguing. I'm also curious about Talgo's involvement - could they be financial backers of an IP bid?

8 and 5 - I assume then those would be each way, so 8/5 trains a day to Tulsa and 8/5 trains a day to OKC. I imagine then it would only be a matter of time before Lawton wanted in on the act - and so begins the dominoes falling. We already know Chickasha wants rail to OKC.

I am cautiously optimistic. BNSF remains the 800lb gorilla in this though. I do not think ODOT and some of our elected officials are inoculated from their influence. Encourage interested people to write letters to the Governor and their state Senators and Reps. It really is the only thing we have to influence the decision.

I am cautiously optimistic. BNSF remains the 800lb gorilla in this though.

Does anyone know what the rail facility is at Stroud; is it a pipeline terminal?

Do they have a plan to get to OKC and not just Midwest City? I'm excited for the possibility but if it just goes from Sapulpa to MWC, doesn't seem like it would be very practical.

Does anyone know what the rail facility is at Stroud; is it a pipeline terminal?

Transload pipeline to Cushing. Great info in the linked WATCO pdf. Certainly appears a win-win isn't enough for BNSF.

http://www.watcocompanies.com/Media/news/the_dispatch/volume_%2011/Jan%20Dispatch.pdf

Do they have a plan to get to OKC and not just Midwest City? I'm excited for the possibility but if it just goes from Sapulpa to MWC, doesn't seem like it would be very practical.

The original sale contract requires BNSF to permit operation on their right of way to downtown Tulsa. (ODOT has conveniently "forgot" to state this when they talk about the sale of the Sooner Sub.) I think it says 4 trains per day.

The OKC link is being worked on now. There is a way to bring it to Santa Fe station but will require working out an agreement with UP and/or BNSF. The easy way is through the UP facility east of I235, through Bricktown, and rebuilding the trestle of the wye that once existed to get on the Santa Fe station platform viaduct. The leg of the wye needed is the reason people responded negatively to the Karchmer (sp?) garage proposal as that plan would have eliminated the best, most direct route to link downtown Tulsa with downtown OKC.

Something I saw from ODOT:

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/newsmedia/press/2014/ST-02-14-14_ODOT_Rail_Statement_short_list.pdf

The State of Oklahoma Cabinet Secretaries of Commerce; Transportation; Energy and Environment; Agriculture and Finance; have announced that two firms have been selected Friday for further negotiations in the potential sale of the Sooner Sub rail line. The short-listed firms are BNSF Railway Company and Stillwater Central Railroad/Watco Companies.

This selection begins a more detailed negotiation process in which the five cabinet secretaries will determine the best interest of the state. The secretaries have up to 90 days from Jan. 30 to negotiate and evaluate final proposals. The option of a sale will only be considered if it is deemed to be in the best interest of the state.

The Oklahoma Department of Transportation started accepting requests for proposals for the Sooner Sub rail line running between Midwest City and Sapulpa on Nov. 1, 2013, and is carefully following the legislative guidance for selling rail assets set forth in Oklahoma Statute Title 66, Sec. 304.

Anyone want to bet on who wins?

Also of note, and this is not the right thread, though of interest all the same, on OETA tonight at 8 PM, on American Experience:

AMERICAN EXPERIENCE
The story of New York's Pennsylvania Station, which opened to the public in 1910. One of the greatest architectural and engineering achievements of its time, it covered nearly eight acres and required the construction of 16 miles of underground tunnels. It closed its doors some 50 years later, giving way to Madison Square Garden, a high-rise office building and sports complex.

Anyone want to bet on who wins?

You mean who won.

This was decided before the RFP went out, this is just a formality.

You mean who won.

This was decided before the RFP went out, this is just a formality.

What's your basis of reality here?

What's your basis of reality here?

It's pretty obvious who will be awarded the line.

They mentioned the purpose of the Request was for the best interest of Oklahoma and the energy industry.

Also of note, and this is not the right thread, though of interest all the same, on OETA tonight at 8 PM, on American Experience:

AMERICAN EXPERIENCE
The story of New York's Pennsylvania Station, which opened to the public in 1910. One of the greatest architectural and engineering achievements of its time, it covered nearly eight acres and required the construction of 16 miles of underground tunnels. It closed its doors some 50 years later, giving way to Madison Square Garden, a high-rise office building and sports complex.

If you want to get a small idea of what Penn Station was like check out Jacksonville Terminal if you ever make it down this way. It was designed by the same architect as Penn station and he borrowed heavily from Penn's design.

Watco will probably still have trackage rights on the line since they run Stillwater Central between Lawton and Tulsa.

More ODOT/Fallin Admin shenanigans:

State officials keep rail line proposals secret after unsealing bids - Tulsa World: Local (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/state-officials-keep-rail-line-proposals-secret-after-unsealing-bids/article_358d7a7b-470d-5290-96f9-b6d7179586bf.html)

So "what is best for Oklahoma" must be kept secret from the people of Oklahoma until AFTER the deal is done? What kind of world are we living in?

So "what is best for Oklahoma" must be kept secret from the people of Oklahoma until AFTER the deal is done? What kind of world are we living in?

Welcome to Tea Party favorite Mary Fallin and her administration.

Welcome to Tea Party favorite Mary Fallin and her administration.

She is probably still waiting on word from her national handlers on how to act after the deal is made public

Welcome to Tea Party favorite Mary Fallin and her administration.

I think this is more ODOT than anything.

State officials keep rail line proposals secret after unsealing bids - Tulsa World: Local (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/state-officials-keep-rail-line-proposals-secret-after-unsealing-bids/article_358d7a7b-470d-5290-96f9-b6d7179586bf.html)



BNSF is owned by billionaire investor Warren Buffett's company, Berkshire Hathaway Inc. A subsidiary of the Omaha, Neb.-based company, BH Media, bought the Tulsa World last year.


A former Tulsa city councilor said he was not surprised by ODOT's decision to keep the bids secret.


"I may be a little bit jaded, and I will admit that up front, but that sounds like it is pretty consistent with ODOT's past behavior on the rail issue," said Rick Westcott. "This open records two-step is entirely consistent with their actions."


However, maybe since Warren Buffet is anti-Tea Party maybe he would be willing to self-release the information, or at least waive this ruling on his bid. No? I didn't think so either because this isn't a left-right issue. It is a 1%-99% issue.

So "what is best for Oklahoma" must be kept secret from the people of Oklahoma until AFTER the deal is done? What kind of world are we living in?what is so ironic about that is the same people who were mad at Pelosi for saying pass Obamacare to see what's in it, are the same people saying seal the deal before we let people know about it

More ODOT/Fallin Admin shenanigans:

State officials keep rail line proposals secret after unsealing bids - Tulsa World: Local (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/state-officials-keep-rail-line-proposals-secret-after-unsealing-bids/article_358d7a7b-470d-5290-96f9-b6d7179586bf.html)

And that's how they get the best proposal for the oil industry regardless of anything else, including higher bids.

While the oil and energy industry is providing a ton of energy and positive momentum of our state's economy, they don't need to take priority to transportation assets over our people.

It should be much easier to coordinate a freight schedule into a passenger schedule, than trying to get passenger trips in between a nonregular freight trains.

If the passenger train is on a fixed schedule, you still have plenty of opportunities to get a freight train between the passenger train trips. If that means your 25 tanker cars full of oil will arrive 35 minutes late, that won't be the end of the world. But delaying a passenger train by 35 minute, to let a commodity go by, is a disservice.

No matter the buyer, if this were me, I'd sell it with strict restrictions on allowing passenger trains to take priority over freight in all instances. If you can't handle that restriction, then you don't need to place a bid.

We can support both the energy industry and our own citizens, but only if we choose to and make the contract of sale very specific on how to integrate the two modes on the line. But that doesn't seem to be a high priority for ODOT.

what is so ironic about that is the same people who were mad at Pelosi for saying pass Obamacare to see what's in it, are the same people saying seal the deal before we let people know about it

That is why we have this thread...

http://www.okctalk.com/politics/36864-7-ways-republicans-democrats-exactly-same.html

While the oil and energy industry is providing a ton of energy and positive momentum of our state's economy, they don't need to take priority to transportation assets over our people.

It should be much easier to coordinate a freight schedule into a passenger schedule, than trying to get passenger trips in between a nonregular freight trains.

If the passenger train is on a fixed schedule, you still have plenty of opportunities to get a freight train between the passenger train trips. If that means your 25 tanker cars full of oil will arrive 35 minutes late, that won't be the end of the world. But delaying a passenger train by 35 minute, to let a commodity go by, is a disservice.

No matter the buyer, if this were me, I'd sell it with strict restrictions on allowing passenger trains to take priority over freight in all instances. If you can't handle that restriction, then you don't need to place a bid.

We can support both the energy industry and our own citizens, but only if we choose to and make the contract of sale very specific on how to integrate the two modes on the line. But that doesn't seem to be a high priority for ODOT.

It goes God > Oil > Humanoids

Luckily God doesn't ask for much.

what is so ironic about that is the same people who were mad at Pelosi for saying pass Obamacare to see what's in it, are the same people saying seal the deal before we let people know about it

Its the same thing even in our state and on this board too.
Its those same people who bend or break rules / laws when it fits their agenda but are just as quick to cry foul when their agenda is in anyway threatened..... Its part of the same crowd who thinks Gean Stipe who plead guilty to federal charges of perjury is a good guy and the few on that side who don't think he was such a great guy hardly ever speek aginst the crowd who still thinks Gean Stipe was a good guy.

Oklahoma City Council joins their Tulsa, Bristow, and Sapulpa counterparts in unanimously opposing the sale of the OKC-Tulsa line.

Will the Governor force her cabinet staff to listen to the state's two largest cities and several small towns?

Or are the debts owed to BNSF too great and it will be business as usual at ODOT?

Oklahoma City Council joins their Tulsa, Bristow, and Sapulpa counterparts in unanimously opposing the sale of the OKC-Tulsa line.

Will the Governor force her cabinet staff to listen to the state's two largest cities and several small towns?

Or are the debts owed to BNSF too great and it will be business as usual at ODOT?

You are about to witness first hand the power of the 1%.

You are about to witness first hand the power of the 1%.

Wouldn't be the first time.... but need to stay in the fight until all options exhausted.

Even Iraq will have a more advanced passenger rail system than the US.....good to know the trillions in US "investment" is building advanced infrastructure somewhere.

Iraqi inter-city train rolled out - Railway Gazette (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/middle-east/single-view/view/iraqi-inter-city-train-rolled-out.html)

I am not sure about the whole US, but certainly better than a majority of American cities.

I am not sure about the whole US, but certainly better than a majority of American cities.

True - I wonder how many NEC repairs and upgrades a small percentage of what we spent in Iraq would have bought? Maybe even paid for a MidWest Corridor HSR system with Chicago as the hub, CA HSR.

But water - and bags of cash - under the bridge. What do we do now going forward? That is the most important question. Initiatives like the Eastern Flyer are probably the best place to start.

According to CNBC news flash, the US Department of Transportation just released a whole new set of regulations regarding shipping oil by rail.

According to CNBC news flash, the US Department of Transportation just released a whole new set of regulations regarding shipping oil by rail.The oil train crashes have put pressuer on the Gov to do something.

The new regulations will be stricter,,,,, but they will increase the cost to ship crude by rail...
But this will only increase the marjins that pipelines alreay enjoy.... This should further increass the demand for more new pipeline construction. New pipelines are sigificantly safer and provide lower cost to the consumers of crude oil products.
The efficancey gain is good for the economy.
Could this be why Warren Buffett has been buying millions of shares of XOM?

:ot: - but to get back to the good news from this morning.

With the victory in today's "scurmish", we now have Oklahoma's two largest metros on board in asking the state to maintain ownership of the Sooner Sub. All indications point to Norman joining OKC, Tulsa, Bristow, and Sapulpa tonight. I hope Edmond will adopt a similar resolution.

This should provide some leverage to cause Governor Fallin to reconsider the sale of this infrastructure. Combined with the revenue from the lease to WATCO, the Iowa Pacific proposal to start commuter service, ending the sale process IS the fiscally responsible thing to do.

Write to your representative, senator, and the governor to reinforce the city council's resolutions. Write to the Transportation Commission members.

Request that they not sell the railroad. I am not confident we will be heard directly through the Governor's office so shine the light on these transportation commissioners... They have the final say.

http://www.odot.org/tcomm/index.htm

Put state officials on notice their actions are under scrutiny and if they will be responsive to the people of the state.

The oil train crashes have put pressuer on the Gov to do something.

The new regulations will be stricter,,,,, but they will increase the cost to ship crude by rail...
But this will only increase the marjins that pipelines alreay enjoy.... This should further increass the demand for more new pipeline construction. New pipelines are sigificantly safer and provide lower cost to the consumers of crude oil products.
The efficancey gain is good for the economy.
Could this be why Warren Buffett has been buying millions of shares of XOM?

The new regulations aren't that much stricter... the main thing is to get newer, better tank cars and then test the crude more accurately and often to ensure that the most volitile stuff is being shipped properly.

Pipelines are NOT significantly safer. They often result in more hidden environmental damage. They are also NOT much of a gain in efficiency. These pipelines are relatively small and require energy to pipe. Rail provides much more flexibility in the system for meeting demand needs.

Anyway, back to the real topic, the rail line.

The new regulations aren't that much stricter... the main thing is to get newer, better tank cars and then test the crude more accurately and often to ensure that the most volitile stuff is being shipped properly.

Pipelines are NOT significantly safer. They often result in more hidden environmental damage. They are also NOT much of a gain in efficiency. These pipelines are relatively small and require energy to pipe. Rail provides much more flexibility in the system for meeting demand needs.

Anyway, back to the real topic, the rail line.
Pipelines are significantly safer (even the older ones in most cases) and by several times and this is documented and pipeline transportation is “generally much cheaper”.

Even Obama's energy secretary below recognizes the superiority that new pipelines have over rail crude oil transportation.

Except for the flexibility that rail gives and that has its firm limits due to cost performance, the performance of a new modern pipeline is better in almost every circumstance. They are cleaner, greener, cheaper and safer for people when transporting crude over distance.

This is very much part of the topic because anyone biding on the rail line will take these things^ into account and likely bid lower because they know that more pipeline capacity is on the horizon and they know they can not hope to be competitive, on a major scale.


RIGZONE - Report: US Energy Secretary Favors Reducing Oil Shipped By Rail (http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/131713/Report_US_Energy_Secretary_Favors_Reducing_Oil_Shi pped_By_Rail)

U.S. Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz supports reducing the amount of crude oil shipped by rail in favor of pipelines that are safer, cheaper and cleaner, Capital New York reported on Wednesday. "What we probably need is more of a pipeline infrastructure and to diminish the need for rail transport over time," he said in an interview published on the Capital New York website.

"Frankly, I think pipeline transport overall probably has overall a better record in terms of cost, in terms of emissions and in terms of safety."

A Department of Energy spokesman was not immediately available to provide more detail on Moniz's comments. His comments are among the first by a senior Obama Administration official to signal an apparent preference for shipping oil from places like the Bakken shale by means other than rail lines, in the wake of a series of explosive derailments that have alarmed the public. While pipelines are generally a much cheaper form of transport, shipping crude in mile-long trains has become a popular alternative since new terminals can be built more quickly than pipelines to serve booming remote shale patches, and offer greater flexibility for refiners -



PS: whatever gave you the idea that "these pipelines are relatively small"?

:ot: - again. Please give ou48a his own thread to repost O&G Industry trade magazine articles.

I read a rail industry trade mag article saying rail is comparable cost wise once you factor in the chemicals added to tar sands to make it flow though a pipe and the cost of removing those chemicals. Both are going to tell part of the truth. I bet the people in Mayflower AR might have a preference, but they don't matter I suppose.

The new regulations aren't that much stricter... the main thing is to get newer, better tank cars and then test the crude more accurately and often to ensure that the most volitile stuff is being shipped properly.

Pipelines are NOT significantly safer. They often result in more hidden environmental damage. They are also NOT much of a gain in efficiency. These pipelines are relatively small and require energy to pipe. Rail provides much more flexibility in the system for meeting demand needs.

Anyway, back to the real topic, the rail line.

I'm with ou48A. I don't know what you have seen asserting that shipping by rail is safer/more efficient than pipeline, but everything I have ever seen is to the contrary. The only advantage to shipping by rail is that you are able to completely bypass pipeline constraints. When you get pipelines that are near capacity there is going to be a lot of pressure fluctuations in the line and you're not going to get steady production from your wells. Producing to the tanks and then shipping the oil by rail allows you to make sure there are no midstream problems that affect your production. Other than that, pipeline has the advantage over rail in basically every category to my knowledge.

Obviously if the field is relatively new, like the Bakken, then rail will also be big because there isn't any pipeline infrastructure to begin with.

Now, back to the topic.

:ot: - again. Please give ou48a his own thread to repost O&G Industry trade magazine articles.

You can't like a post rebutting what ou48A says and then tell him to quit getting off topic when he refutes it with real facts.

But like I said, back on topic.

You can't like a post rebutting what ou48A says and then tell him to quit getting off topic when he refutes it with real facts.

But like I said, back on topic.

Fair enough.....but I was mainly liking the "Back to topic" part.

Although this is a bit dated the Obama state department endorse the following view.

“Proponents for the roughly 1,200 mile pipeline, delivering the oil in Canada's Alberta province to refineries on the U.S. Gulf Coast, say moving huge volumes of crude by rail would be dirtier and more prone to mishap than a pipeline and the market would adopt rail if the project were halted. The State Department report endorses that view.”

Keystone pipeline vs. rail transport evaluated - News - 1450 WHTC Holland's Hometown Station (http://whtc.com/news/articles/2013/apr/21/keystone-pipeline-vs-rail-transport-evaluated/)

This^ would impact the bid and possible maintenance of the rail line for reasons previous mentioned.
It a totally valid point.