Ill pass on a Belle Isle Station Downtown. The last thing OKC needs is more cheap suburban crap. This type of junk already makes up 99 percent of the metro.

The challenge is the cost of the dirt make most projects difficult to do.

I think the big box thing could actually be nice if done in a more urban setup. I keep thinking of figat7th in Downtown LA. Its essentially a Target on the ground floor with a few restaurants and shops stacked on top of it. Kinda setup like a mall, but much smaller. Dress it up with some outdoor seating and it doesn't look too bad

16863

I think the big box thing could actually be nice if done in a more urban setup. I keep thinking of figat7th in Downtown LA. Its essentially a Target on the ground floor with a few restaurants and shops stacked on top of it. Kinda setup like a mall, but much smaller. Dress it up with some outdoor seating and it doesn't look too bad

16863

That looks almost identical to The Oak’s renderings (oakokc.com).

Wouldn’t be mad at all about a dev like that near the core.

That's so cool!

I think the big box thing could actually be nice if done in a more urban setup. I keep thinking of figat7th in Downtown LA. Its essentially a Target on the ground floor with a few restaurants and shops stacked on top of it. Kinda setup like a mall, but much smaller. Dress it up with some outdoor seating and it doesn't look too bad

16863
It’s comical that people in OKC think there is slim chance of something like this being built here. No one is saying that this has to be Belle Isle downtown. That’s why we have a design review committee. I just don’t see people watching Thunder shots and thinking “well that confirms or changes my opinion of OKC” because they see a big box development near the core.

We don’t usually disagree but I will here.

How you can possibly say OKC is ready for all of this development. The city doesn’t even have a single district that has hit real critical mass that is absent of parking lots other than MAYBE deep deuce. So how is OKC ready for some dense district to occupy the entire COOP land?

its not, that's why I dont want us to rush into a master plan for it that does not include the aquarium.

There are a lot of things this city needs. An aquarium is not one of them. Do we and should we want it? Sure.

The reason not to put big boxes downtown is not about the city's image (at least, mostly not - I have to admit there's a little bit of that in my mind.)

Much more than that, it's because there are dozens of other parts of town with huge traffic counts and large amounts of rooftops that can (and already do) support this type of retail. People that are going to such stores and spending money are driving there, requiring tremendous amounts of parking, which just deadens the feel of an area. Even in a parking garage. Also these stores come and go on the strength of their corporate finances, leaving the possibility of huge blank holes. With the shift to Amazon shopping, it's entirely possible that OKC is already overbuilt when it comes to big box retail.

The above photo is fine - it doesn't look awful. If that exact thing was built, it would be borderline acceptable. But I'm sorry, PluPan, I don't have much faith that that is the quality that would get built, with parking completely hidden, the whole thing sunken underground with outdoor escalators going into rooftop green space. I just don't see it in OKC. I just think retail - except for specialty, experiential, Classen Curve type stuff - is past it's prime. And if high-end funky retail ever comes in large quantities to downtown OKC, they would much rather be in Midtown or Automobile Alley.

This location deserves something special, something that will be the only place in the state that hosts it. An aquarium was mentioned upthread. An MLS-level soccer stadium, sure. It's a huge amount of land. You could do both of these things on that property, weave midrise apartment and condo buildings (with ground floor restaurants and yes - space for some specialty retail) among those structures.

I don't think any of us knows what the "next big thing" in the world will be. Far better to let this sit idle until something is found that is worthy of the location. The drawings presented by the development company aren't it, not by a long shot.

OKC needs a lot more 1) young talents, 2) tourists. I don’t see 1 will happen anytime soon, we can achieve 2 with money, by spending big on something unique, a world class aquarium or safari park, or a Bilbao’s Guggenheim-esque museum will do the job. Luckily, dreams can be achieved on the computer, I added both the Wembley Stadium and the Georgia Aquarium to downtown OKC, they look pretty good.

https://i.imgur.com/GFKOQom.jpg

Build some thing serious, designed by top architecture firms, then extend the canal to the P-COOP site and the river, I guarantee you those boat taxis (and Bricktown, maybe) will be super busy.

https://i.imgur.com/caaowx4.jpg

The canal connection thing wouldn't work because of a significant grade difference, you would need a multimillion dollar lock installed.

OKC needs a lot more 1) young talents, 2) tourists. I don’t see 1 will happen anytime soon, we can achieve 2 with money, by spending big on something unique, a world class aquarium or safari park, or a Bilbao’s Guggenheim-esque museum will do the job. Luckily, dreams can be achieved on the computer, I added both the Wembley Stadium and the Georgia Aquarium to downtown OKC, they look pretty good.

https://i.imgur.com/GFKOQom.jpg

Build some thing serious, designed by top architecture firms, then extend the canal to the P-COOP site and the river, I guarantee you those boat taxis (and Bricktown, maybe) will be super busy.

https://i.imgur.com/caaowx4.jpg

I agree this is needed BUT will never believe OKC can/will have the foresight to pursue let alone build something on this scale. Jus not in Oklahomas DNA

The canal connection thing wouldn't work because of a significant grade difference, you would need a multimillion dollar lock installed.

Shawn, that’s simply not true. Johnson and Associates (designer of the north portion of the original canal) did a preliminary plan pro bono for a different effort in 2009. The grade separation thing is real, but only related to the dip that the boulevard takes to get under BNSF.

The route of the canal as proposed for the cotton mill/aquarium project would have required an existing drainage ditch that runs N-S just east of the grain elevator climbing gym to be boxed in, so that the canal could travel over it. But the canal could then easily proceed through the producers site and could then even travel under BNSF, cross Shields, run down the Boulevard past the Omni, touch Scissortail, cross the boulevard and touch the arena’s SW plaza, cross Robinson and even make it all the way to Myriad Botanical Gardens. No locks required.

This is all very realistic from an engineering standpoint.

I agree this is needed BUT will never believe OKC can/will have the foresight to pursue let alone build something on this scale. Jus not in Oklahomas DNA

I see you're trolling again. LOL. Honestly, the MAPS mechanism is in place to make this happen. Go count it up, all of the projects that have been completed over the years. Fortunately I think quality of life improvement is in our DNA.

I agree this is needed BUT will never believe OKC can/will have the foresight to pursue let alone build something on this scale. Jus not in Oklahomas DNA

Slowly but surely we are getting there... ...Preservation is foundational to building OKC’s future.

Soccer/concert stadium with a nice casino hotel (hard rock type) would work for me.

I agree this is needed BUT will never believe OKC can/will have the foresight to pursue let alone build something on this scale. Jus not in Oklahomas DNA

Have you ever heard of MAPS? It’s kind of hard to argue OKC can’t/won’t pursue large scale projects when the discussion is wanting to connect a large scale project (canal) to a future large scale project (soccer stadium) in an area surrounded by large scale projects.

Soccer/concert stadium with a nice casino hotel (hard rock type) would work for me.

I thought a downtown casino had some sort of legal roadblock?

OKC needs a lot more 1) young talents, 2) tourists. I don’t see 1 will happen anytime soon, we can achieve 2 with money, by spending big on something unique, a world class aquarium or safari park, or a Bilbao’s Guggenheim-esque museum will do the job. Luckily, dreams can be achieved on the computer, I added both the Wembley Stadium and the Georgia Aquarium to downtown OKC, they look pretty good.

https://i.imgur.com/GFKOQom.jpg

Build some thing serious, designed by top architecture firms, then extend the canal to the P-COOP site and the river, I guarantee you those boat taxis (and Bricktown, maybe) will be super busy.

https://i.imgur.com/caaowx4.jpg
Where do you propose to put the Stillwater Central railroad yard?

I thought a downtown casino had some sort of legal roadblock?

It does.

Now the Chickasaw Tribe agreed to finish the museum, fund it and in exchange the city agreed to give them 100 acres of undeveloped land surrounding the museum. The Chickasaw Nation would cover operating losses of up to $2 million per year for seven years.

The city would assure its “cooperation and support” for the tribe to develop surrounding property, which has Oklahoma River frontage and, at the confluence of Interstates 35 and 40, is marketed as the “crossroads of America.”

You would think the City & State would work together to craft legislation to show appreciation for the Tribe's contribution especially when the state bailed out; at least allow the tribe to build one grand hotel-casino combination on that 100 acre track. The hotel is probably a given since the Tribe's specialty is hospitality.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdwYZTNV0AE0ma-.jpg
Imagine this development along the Oklahoma River.

I-35/40 crossroads could allow Oklahoma City to become a true mega destination. The city & state should push for legislation for the Tribe to also build the Aquarian in exchange for a casino and hotel dual tower combination. Where the net profits are split 60-40 in the tribe's favor.

Think of the jobs and commercial development this would create near the museum. And yes, you could eventually build that 80,000-seat stadium development. Now that would make Dallas & Kansas City jealous...

I thought a downtown casino had some sort of legal roadblock?

I believe casinos have be located on tribal land in OK, and I believe there is none in OKC.

I wish Oklahoma would legalize commercial casinos like Vegas.

I wish Oklahoma would legalize commercial casinos like Vegas.

Thank you.

But much like they did the horse track when Remington Park was built--limit the number to one which could be built in one metro area.

The state could allow commercial casinos. But that would void the gaming compacts with the tribes and they would no longer owe the state anything from any of their casinos.

^^^^ That is worth it For both parties I would add

Remember when we wuz in school and an old-timey map of Oklahoma showed the general OKC area as “unassigned lands”? I understand it to mean that no tribe has control over it. I think it also suggests that every single tribe that is recognized in Oklahoma feels they have an equal claim to this area. That makes me think that negotiating a compact with every tribe in Oklahoma, as well as the state, would be a heavy lift.

Shawn, that’s simply not true. Johnson and Associates (designer of the north portion of the original canal) did a preliminary plan pro bono for a different effort in 2009. The grade separation thing is real, but only related to the dip that the boulevard takes to get under BNSF.

The route of the canal as proposed for the cotton mill/aquarium project would have required an existing drainage ditch that runs N-S just east of the grain elevator climbing gym to be boxed in, so that the canal could travel over it. But the canal could then easily proceed through the producers site and could then even travel under BNSF, cross Shields, run down the Boulevard past the Omni, touch Scissortail, cross the boulevard and touch the arena’s SW plaza, cross Robinson and even make it all the way to Myriad Botanical Gardens. No locks required.

This is all very realistic from an engineering standpoint.

Chad... he said:

extend the canal to the P-COOP site and the river

I got that "canal can't connect to river" bit from you. And that's what I was referring to.

Regarding ONLY extending the canal to coop site, yes if you simply don't go down into that valley, makes sense that you would then be able to extend.

^^^ Shawn: something like this will work, much simpler solution, no need for a lock in order to send the taxis to the river.
https://parkvault.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/leofoo-village-intamin-flume-4.jpg

Ah, my bad, sorry. I missed that part. Yes, a physical river connection via water is not only impractical but also also makes no sense from a watercraft standpoint as no craft could operate on both bodies. The elevation difference is about 17’, and would indeed require multiple locks, only to have zero possibility of a craft actually using them.

There is an existing pedestrian connection in the form of Bricktown Landing, which places the two bodies of water mere yards from one another. The public is unfortunately barely aware of it. It could use more enhancements, but it’s nevertheless pretty elaborate.

^^^ Shawn: something like this will work, much simpler solution, no need for a lock in order to send the taxis to the river.

(Image)

Haha, no thanks!

I believe casinos have be located on tribal land in OK, and I believe there is none in OKC.

By law, Indian Casinos can only be on Indian Trust land within the confines of the original boundaries of an Indian nation or reservation. Oklahoma City is not part of any Indian reservation or Indian country. Therefore, no tribe can put a casino in OKC as there is no way a tribe can own land in trust here in OKC.

The legislature could change the law to allow Vegas style casinos but that won't happen. There is no appetite politically for such.

By law, Indian Casinos can only be on Indian Trust land within the confines of the original boundaries of an Indian nation or reservation. Oklahoma City is not part of any Indian reservation or Indian country. Therefore, no tribe can put a casino in OKC as there is no way a tribe can own land in trust here in OKC.

The legislature could change the law to allow Vegas style casinos but that won't happen. There is no appetite politically for such.

So Tulsa has parts that are Indian Reservations I take it.

Though not possible under current laws, it would be cool to have a mini Vegas strip downtown, if we were to give plots of land to any tribes willing to develop and put hotel-casinos on. The tribes could integrate museums or other cultural displays as well. I know we're sort of getting the museum aspect with the FAM, but you can't have too many museums in my opinion. Imagine the COOP fully developed with casinos, museums, a canal extension, shopping, and an aquarium. Maybe even some sort of shuttle to FAM.

When I go to Vegas I avoid the strip at all costs and hang downtown at freemont street most of the time. No thanks to reproducing that here.

Agree...I guess I was imagining that the OKC version of the strip would more like Fremont Street.

That I'd take

So Tulsa has parts that are Indian Reservations I take it.

Yes. Most all of Tulsa is part of the Cherokee or Muscogee (Creek) reservations. Therefore and land owned by either tribe can be put into “trust” and then have a casino. The River Spirit Casino is on the Muscogee Creek Reservation and the Hard Rock is Cherokee.

No tribe can put a casino in OKC under federal law. No part of OKC is “Indian Country.” Tribe an own land here like the Chickasaw’s now own the old Sportsmen’s Country Club site on 39th. But since it isn’t in “Indian Country” then it cannot be put in “trust” so it cannot have a casino. Unless Oklahoma opens up Oklahoma to Vegas style gambling, there will be no casinos in OKC other than Remington Park. That is not an “Indian Casino” under the Indian Gaming laws. It is a private casino given explicit authority due to an initiative petition I believe. It is owned by a subsidiary of the Chickasaw nation, Global Gaming Solutions LLC which itself is not an Indian operation.

Yes. Most all of Tulsa is part of the Cherokee or Muscogee (Creek) reservations. Therefore and land owned by either tribe can be put into “trust” and then have a casino. The River Spirit Casino is on the Muscogee Creek Reservation and the Hard Rock is Cherokee.

All of Tulsa is Indian land. The part of the city in Osage County is in the Osage Nation, Tulsa in Tulsa County north of Admiral Blvd(I-244) is Cherokee. Everything south of Admiral, which is by far most of the city, is Creek. Basically the entire metro is Indian land as well.

All of Tulsa is Indian land. The part of the city in Osage County is in the Osage Nation, Tulsa in Tulsa County north of Admiral Blvd(I-244) is Cherokee. Everything south of Admiral, which is by far most of the city, is Creek. Basically the entire metro is Indian land as well.

You have a funding foundation base for real Tribal investments. What's prohibiting Tulsa from mega growth and becoming a real 'boom town.'

Yes. Most all of Tulsa is part of the Cherokee or Muscogee (Creek) reservations. Therefore and land owned by either tribe can be put into “trust” and then have a casino. The River Spirit Casino is on the Muscogee Creek Reservation and the Hard Rock is Cherokee.

the gov of Oklahoma has veto power over what land in the state is put in trust status for a casino ... ( this doesn't account for how the Mcgirt decision may have changed things )

the gov of Oklahoma has veto power over what land in the state is put in trust status for a casino ... ( this doesn't account for how the Mcgirt decision may have changed things )

No they don't. The BIA does, but not the state.

The residential component in this plan is the real wildcard. Remediation requirements for residential developments are so much more stringent than industrial developments. The cleanup costs are thus much higher for residential components. That is why the majority of this plan is big box and office. Less remediation is required. But residential is viewed by many as essential to the development and therefore the contamination issue will be a major roadblock to anything big. The unknown cleanup costs are what have prevented any real movement here.

So it would be foolish for the seller to factor in remediation costs in the sale price. Why would the seller devalue the worth for residential use and then have the developer "change their mind" post sale and pocket the difference..

No they don't. The BIA does, but not the state.

That is correct. The state has absolutely no say in what land is put in trust. Placing tribal land into trust is done by the secretary of the Department of the Interior acquiring title to property and holding it for the benefit of a Native American tribe or individual tribal members. Tribes do have to enter into compacts with the state to run gaming. But the state has no say on Indian land being put in trust. That is all federal. But only land within the historic boundaries of a tribe can be put in trust. Casinos can only go on “trust” land. Therefore no tribe can put a casino in OKC.

So it would be foolish for the seller to factor in remediation costs in the sale price. Why would the seller devalue the worth for residential use and then have the developer "change their mind" post sale and pocket the difference..

The problem is the seller is pricing the property at a point that is on the upper end even if the property were "clean." The seller is going to have to factor in clean-up costs, or no one is going to buy. No developer can afford to pay premium price for land that is contaminated, not knowing what the clean up cost will be. Plus, no lender is going to finance purchase money for dirty land. That is why the Funk deal fell through, and why the Sooner Development deal has stalled. The Co-op is either going to have to reduce the price to accommodate for projected cleanup costs, or they are going to have to clean it themselves. But my sources tell me the property have never been fully assessed for the extent of contamination. Therefore, no one really knows what the environmental issues are, or the possible cleanup costs. Without some idea, no one will likely take the risk. All of the development proposals I have seen include a residential component. The cleanup for residential is much more extensive and expensive than industrial. But even industrial cleanup can be extremely costly. Some of these sites can get into the 10s of millions of dollars for cleanup. Some into the hundreds of millions of dollars. The seller must get realistic or it will sit there like this for the foreseeable future.

All of Tulsa is Indian land. The part of the city in Osage County is in the Osage Nation, Tulsa in Tulsa County north of Admiral Blvd(I-244) is Cherokee. Everything south of Admiral, which is by far most of the city, is Creek. Basically the entire metro is Indian land as well.

You are right...I forgot about the Osage component. It is very small compared to the Cherokee and the Muscogee components.

You have a funding foundation base for real Tribal investments. What's prohibiting Tulsa from mega growth and becoming a real 'boom town.'


You can only have so many casinos in one region. The market just isn't there for much more than what is already present. Sadly, the Cherokees and Muscogee Creeks are not as diversified as the Chickasaws. The most diversified tribe is the Chickasaw Nation. They have multiple business operations. And most are extremely successful. The Chickasaw Nation is in the top 5 of the largest employers in the state of Oklahoma.

No they don't. The BIA does, but not the state.


That is correct. The state has absolutely no say in what land is put in trust. Placing tribal land into trust is done by the secretary of the Department of the Interior acquiring title to property and holding it for the benefit of a Native American tribe or individual tribal members. Tribes do have to enter into compacts with the state to run gaming. But the state has no say on Indian land being put in trust. That is all federal. But only land within the historic boundaries of a tribe can be put in trust. Casinos can only go on “trust” land. Therefore no tribe can put a casino in OKC.

https://www.indianz.com/News/2005/009779.asp

see above link ..

this was the result of the Miami tribe trying to built a casino south of frontier city ..

"The rider removes the mandatory aspect of the acquisition and forces the tribe to go through the two-part determination process for gaming, a move that requires state approval. Tribal officials have always said they planned to work with the state and local communities but the process places an extremely high bar on the casino."

No they don't. The BIA does, but not the state.


https://www.indianz.com/News/2005/009779.asp

see above link ..

this was the result of the Miami tribe trying to built a casino south of frontier city ..

"The rider removes the mandatory aspect of the acquisition and forces the tribe to go through the two-part determination process for gaming, a move that requires state approval. Tribal officials have always said they planned to work with the state and local communities but the process places an extremely high bar on the casino."

no this is a pretty specific deal and deals with new land a tribe acquires and tries to put in trust status

no this is a pretty specific deal and deals with new land a tribe acquires and tries to put in trust status

That deal was for land outside the national area of a tribe. The Miami tribe has no relationship to land in central Oklahoma and so that IS different. If the Creek Nation for example wants to put land into trust anywhere in it's tribal area, the state has no say.

You can only have so many casinos in one region. The market just isn't there for much more than what is already present. Sadly, the Cherokees and Muscogee Creeks are not as diversified as the Chickasaws. The most diversified tribe is the Chickasaw Nation. They have multiple business operations. And most are extremely successful. The Chickasaw Nation is in the top 5 of the largest employers in the state of Oklahoma.

Really sounds enthusiastic for those 100 acres.

https://www.indianz.com/News/2005/009779.asp

see above link ..

this was the result of the Miami tribe trying to built a casino south of frontier city ..

"The rider removes the mandatory aspect of the acquisition and forces the tribe to go through the two-part determination process for gaming, a move that requires state approval. Tribal officials have always said they planned to work with the state and local communities but the process places an extremely high bar on the casino."

The exact language of the "rider" you linked to states as follows:

(a) LAND ACQUISITION-
(1) IN GENERAL- The Tribe shall be eligible to have land acquired in trust for its benefit pursuant to section 5 of the Act of June 18, 1934 (48 Stat. 985; 25 U.S.C. 465) and section 1 of the Act of June 26, 1936 (49 Stat. 1967; 25 U.S.C. 501).
(2) CERTAIN LAND IN OKLAHOMA- Notwithstanding any other provision of law but subject to subsection (b), if the Tribe transfers any land within the boundaries of the State of Oklahoma to the Secretary, the Secretary shall take such land into trust for the benefit of the Tribe.

The state has no say in what goes into trust. Any land a tribe transfers to the Secretary of the Interior becomes trust land. The state has no "veto" authority.

The exact language of the "rider" you linked to states as follows:

(a) LAND ACQUISITION-
(1) IN GENERAL- The Tribe shall be eligible to have land acquired in trust for its benefit pursuant to section 5 of the Act of June 18, 1934 (48 Stat. 985; 25 U.S.C. 465) and section 1 of the Act of June 26, 1936 (49 Stat. 1967; 25 U.S.C. 501).
(2) CERTAIN LAND IN OKLAHOMA- Notwithstanding any other provision of law but subject to subsection (b), if the Tribe transfers any land within the boundaries of the State of Oklahoma to the Secretary, the Secretary shall take such land into trust for the benefit of the Tribe.

The state has no say in what goes into trust. Any land a tribe transfers to the Secretary of the Interior becomes trust land. The state has no "veto" authority.

Wow, so does that mean that any land a tribe acquires and puts into a trust becomes part of the trust and treated the same as tribal land . . . ? ? ?


Closing on the property will enable the Chickasaw Nation subsidiary to begin development of the commercial property, ideally to coincide with completion of AICCM construction.


Chickasaw Nation subsidiary closes on land surrounding AICCM: https://chickasaw.net/News/Press-Releases/Release/Chickasaw-Nation-subsidiary-closes-on-land-surroun-46289.aspx

Wow, so does that mean that any land a tribe acquires and puts into a trust becomes part of the trust and treated the same as tribal land . . . ? ? ?


It will not be "trust" land as trust land has to be within the original boundaries. Tribes can also own land in fee...just as you and I can own land in fee. The Chickasaw Nation owns quite a number of parcels of land in the OKC area...but they are not "tribal" lands or "trust" lands. In this instance, the Tribe itself did not "close" on the property. It was a subsidiary of the tribe. A business/company owned by the tribe. Therefore, it is owned by a subsidiary and it cannot be put in trust. Just like they own Remington Park. They are just the owners in "fee" like how you own your house. As I said above, the tribe or subsidiaries of the tribe own land all around OKC. They own the land and building on North Lincoln where they have offices for different departments to serve the tribal citizens in the OKC area. They own the land where they have a bank. And they just bought land along the Kilpatrick Turnpike/Memorial Road west of Rockwell where they are going to build a big building for their bank. They also own the old Sportsman's Country Club site on 39th. They probably own more, but those are the ones I know of off the top of my head. The lands around the First American's Museum will be held in fee. It will not be trust land.

Thanks for the clarification, Yukong

Here is a somewhat updated site plan from their website.

I don't think anything is happening here anytime soon, but it's interesting to see:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/coop020722aa.jpg

*shudders*

I think they should go big box retail with a hybrid suburb/urban design where the less walkable part can be redeveloped in a decade or so. That would satisfy services for the downtown core, allowing those with cars to easily access this development and provide for alternative access to those living in the core who don’t wish to use a car. Anchor it with an IKEA and I guarantee it becomes the most successful retail development in the state.

^^ Just reach out to The Cordish Companies, and let them handle this land.

Wow something like that would be amazing

https://www.cordish.com/businesses/international-development