Driving by the other day I saw equipment actively doing things and a big dirt pile I didn't think was there before. I thought this site was stalled?

They are doing soil remediation if I remember correctly.

^

Yes, there was more contamination than originally presumed.

Was out there yesterday and they were working away to clean the soil.

Cool. Didn't realize that remediation continued whether or not they had a project for the land.

Cool. Didn't realize that remediation continued whether or not they had a project for the land.


The property isn't very marketable with environmental issues. The price the Co-op people want for the land make it difficult to market because of the cost of cleanup. So, they are doing the cleanup to get the price they want. There were quite a few environmental issues with the site. But that is pretty common in the lower downtown area of OKC.

Very informative thank you

The property isn't very marketable with environmental issues. The price the Co-op people want for the land make it difficult to market because of the cost of cleanup. So, they are doing the cleanup to get the price they want. There were quite a few environmental issues with the site. But that is pretty common in the lower downtown area of OKC.

This property is owned by Sooner Investment Realty now.


EDIT: Maybe my statement above is incorrect, I know they were set to be the developer, but the property may not have technically switched hands? I am not remembering 100%.

This property is owned by Sooner Investment Realty now.


EDIT: Maybe my statement above is incorrect, I know they were set to be the developer, but the property may not have technically switched hands? I am not remembering 100%.

Sooner is just a partner in future development. The Coop still owns the land.

As soon as I hit submit, I started thinking back about that. Thank you for the clarification and sorry yukong for jumping the gun!

I seen a huge mountain of soil and a bulldozer scooping it up and loading in a dump truck yesterday. Wonder what they do with all that contaminated soil? I assume the mountain of soil is the contaminated stuff.

It reminded me of that show Gold Rush except No Gold in that Hill of soil.

I seen a huge mountain of soil and a bulldozer scooping it up and loading in a dump truck yesterday. Wonder what they do with all that contaminated soil? I assume the mountain of soil is the contaminated stuff.

It reminded me of that show Gold Rush except No Gold in that Hill of soil.

It's my understanding that it gets burnt.

I don't think soil remediation is much different than it was 25 years ago: Soil was taken to massive acreage where it is spread out in a thin layer and most contamination is removed by natural sunlight and wind over a few days. Then it is mixed with "virgin" soil and reintroduced into the eco system.

I don't think soil remediation is much different than it was 25 years ago: Soil was taken to massive acreage where it is spread out in a thin layer and most contamination is removed by natural sunlight and wind over a few days. Then it is mixed with "virgin" soil and reintroduced into the eco system.

Depending on the type of contamination, it may be taken to a hazardous waste landfill and buried...or if the contamination is of an unstable nature, then some sort of aggregate is mixed with the soil to stabilize it, then it is taken to a hazardous waste landfill. There are different types of hazardous waste landfills...depending on the substances. We have several landfills that probably can take this soil...and then we have one major hazardous waste site..Lone Mountain up in the Gloss Mountains. We have none that can take radioactive waste. That goes out of state.

From the documents I have seen on this site, it is most likely just a dig and haul. Then they will bring in fresh topsoil and cover it. Most likely, once that is done, any residential structures will require vapor intrusion mitigation systems. As well as institutional controls on digging. The condos north from the Civic Center had similar issues...they did a dig and haul...installed vapor mitigation systems in the units, and there are restrictions on how deep you can dig. Plus no ground water use at all.

I learned something new today.

When they built Devon, they had a lot of soil mediation. I watched thew construction from my office and couldn't figure out why they kept taking all the dirt out only to replace it later. All the construction management guys were in my building so I finally asked one of them

When they built Devon, they had a lot of soil mediation. I watched thew construction from my office and couldn't figure out why they kept taking all the dirt out only to replace it later. All the construction management guys were in my building so I finally asked one of them

That is a standard remediation procedure when you have contaminated soil. Excavate the top few to several feet (depending on the amount of contamination) then bring in clean fill. State law then requires deed notices with restrictions on what can then be done at the site regarding digging, trenching, etc. And usually there are prohibitions on use of groundwater. At the Co-op site...I noticed Sunday evening that it looked like they have excavated down several feet in some areas. Evidencing the soil contamination was higher then first thought.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/coop121618.jpg

Seems like there could be a lot of potential to do walkability either well or completely screwed up between the Park and Convention Center area and any new development here.

When they built Devon, they had a lot of soil mediation. I watched thew construction from my office and couldn't figure out why they kept taking all the dirt out only to replace it later. All the construction management guys were in my building so I finally asked one of them

The parking garage that Devon demoed to build the tower was on the site of the former streetcar garage/maintenance facility. During excavation for piles and basement space they encountered partially full petroleum product tanks (fuel/oil/waste oil) that were abandoned in place prior to modern regulations. The garage was simply built over the buried tanks. The tanks leaked. Larry Nichols lauded the the ODEQ response to the discovery, including efforts to minimize the delay of construction.

Back to the locomotive, who would i contact to see if the locomotive could be bought &put back to work?

I found this OKCtalk site while looking for more information about a news item regarding the Producers Coop locomotive in the Loconotes column of the February issue of Railfan & Railroad magazine. For those of you interested in that locomotive, it has been since at least November 2018, and currently is, listed for sale on sterlingrail.com for $75,000 with a make an offer option.

Regarding the previous discussion in this thread about moving the locomotive, it is noted in the Sterling listing that the locomotive has friction bearings. This makes it virtually impossible to move the locomotive on its own wheels on any of the seven Class 1 railroads. To move it by rail, it would have to have roller bearing trucks exchanged for the friction bearing trucks or it would have to be hauled on a flat car. Also, presuming it does not have alignment control draft gear, that issue would have to be dealt with before it could be moved on its own wheels.

Disclaimer - I have no employment nor financial relationship with Sterling Rail Inc. I only reference it as a source of information.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/coop021719.jpg

Nice pic Pete - man this really shows how underdeveloped the canal sides are in lower Bricktown. Wish we could start over.. Also though I think it would be a slam dunk idea to extend the canal through Producers Coop and get the design right in that area, then this would seem more like a docile park between two dense areas of the canal.

.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/coop021719.jpg

A MAPS 4 one & a half-mile Bricktown Canal extension thru the Coop Mill parcel to the convention center complex would allow for more development along the canal and enhance the convention center complex.

Are there any elevation or Coop Mill development obstacles that would prevent an extension?

This is quite a large area with only three access roads in and out of the area. If this area is developed with the intention of high traffic, I would hope to see some dramatic improvements made to help connect in all directions. This could become a nightmare during large events.

Also, being located in an opportunity zone, this appears to be quite an "opportunity" for investors!

I would like to see a 2 lane bridge over I-40 connecting to that land along the river which should eventually be redeveloped.

The 3 access roads however should be enough. Other options can and should include pedestrian and bike access, rail, and an extended canal can all help move people in and out of this area which should be more than sufficient.

Nice pic Pete - man this really shows how underdeveloped the canal sides are in lower Bricktown. Wish we could start over.. Also though I think it would be a slam dunk idea to extend the canal through Producers Coop and get the design right in that area, then this would seem more like a docile park between two dense areas of the canal.

Too bad the new CC couldn't have been built on this COOP site.

Too bad the new CC couldn't have been built on this COOP site.

no... i prefer it being next to the new park...

Nice pic Pete - man this really shows how underdeveloped the canal sides are in lower Bricktown. Wish we could start over.

While Lower Bricktown messed up, anywhere where there's a parking lot provides an opportunity to fix the mistakes... even if it requires some creativity. Filling all those parking lots with a mix of development could still result in something pretty special. If we must then you can just replace those surface level lots with structured parking somewhere in the area.

While Lower Bricktown messed up, anywhere where there's a parking lot provides an opportunity to fix the mistakes... even if it requires some creativity. Filling all those parking lots with a mix of development could still result in something pretty special. If we must then you can just replace those surface level lots with structured parking somewhere in the area.

I blame the winding nature of the canal itself for the most part. Bad planning whoever came up with that.

^^^^ they can still do a good job with the canal interaction regardless of whether or not it’s straight. Though I would prefer any extension not to have many curves unless necessary.

I would like to see a 2 lane bridge over I-40 connecting to that land along the river which should eventually be redeveloped.

The 3 access roads however should be enough. Other options can and should include pedestrian and bike access, rail, and an extended canal can all help move people in and out of this area which should be more than sufficient.

What? For access to pull-a-part?

You can bet money the main entry into Lumberyard and Coop will be off of the Boulevard, as it is already designed to be.

Maybe I wasn’t clear but I meant if/when that area gets redeveloped. ROW for such a bridge would need to be planned in advance. The pull apart yard and electrical substation should be moved someday to allow for redevelopment.

Rivers have curves? Who knew?

No one is talking about rivers.

Lets get the guys who designed Penn Central to look at this area. I bet they could come up with something really nice.

No one is talking about rivers.

My mistake. Not sure how I could ever have thought anyone would mean the canal when they said riverwalk. Really whiffed it on this one.

My mistake. Not sure how I could ever have thought anyone would mean the canal when they said riverwalk. Really whiffed it on this one.It seems the term riverwalk is applied to canals in many cases. Unless I missed it, the only reference to a winding canal was the post #1228.

It seems the term riverwalk is applied to canals in many cases. Unless I missed it, the only reference to a winding canal was the post #1228.

Yes, the one that generated my post in response. I was being sarcastic, you see, because of someone expressing surprise/disappointment that it wasn't a straight canal. You know, like every other canal, especially San Antonio, generally accepted as the model for the Bricktown Canal. As you note, nobody else seems to expect it to be, and expecting it to be shows a lack of understanding of even the terrain of this one in particular, let alone others. Or maybe they just want it to be astoundingly short, I don't really know.

Regardless, I think nobody else is surprised that it curves.

I honestly don’t mind the curves that much. It creates some diverse areas along the canal. I don’t like the buildings in lower bricktown which have almost zero interaction with the canal and resemble those found in suburban office parks.

This was in some old papers at the Gazette.

It was just a conceptual plan long before the convention center was even approved, but it's interesting (right-click and open in a new tab for the hi-res version).

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/canal022019.jpg

Thanks Pete,

Never knew the old plan went underneath the Shields Blvd., bypass bridge. The San Antonio Riverwalk winds like a snake; we could use a good 5 mile canal--it would attract development like residential & mixed use along with some smaller hotels in the 100-200 room range or would any hotels in that vicinity infringe on the agreement with the Omni?

Thanks Pete,

Never knew the old plan went underneath the Shields Blvd., bypass bridge. The San Antonio Riverwalk winds like a snake; we could use a good 5 mile canal--it would attract development like residential & mixed use along with some smaller hotels in the 100-200 room range or would any hotels in that vicinity infringe on the agreement with the Omni?

I tend to agree that we don't have enough of a critical mass on the canal. We have not insured that the core of it in Bricktown is actually developed as a vibrant activity center. Perhaps a private developer will see the value of doing so on this site. I don't even think lower Btown will hurt it if more is developed. San Antonio has a lot of the riverwalk that isn't faced by restaurants, bars and hotels. Some of it is even suburban feeling. But it is interesting because it changes as you go through it and there are centers of activity along the way. Our riverwalk doesn't really have anything to interest people to keep going. It needs more length and more interesting development.

I like that concept Pete. When the canal was built the majority of the development and interest was in Bricktown. we have grown so much since then that what once seemed like an attraction to an area now seems small in the grand scheme of development. Now we have boomed all over the CBD but yet this "attraction" seems short and under utilized and under appreciated just winding through one small area. if it connected through COOP and to the CC it would really make a huge difference in connection. would create a very walkable path from CC to Bricktown development and would just seem more complete in my opinion.

I tend to agree that we don't have enough of a critical mass on the canal. We have not insured that the core of it in Bricktown is actually developed as a vibrant activity center. Perhaps a private developer will see the value of doing so on this site. I don't even think lower Btown will hurt it if more is developed. San Antonio has a lot of the riverwalk that isn't faced by restaurants, bars and hotels. Some of it is even suburban feeling. But it is interesting because it changes as you go through it and there are centers of activity along the way. Our riverwalk doesn't really have anything to interest people to keep going. It needs more length and more interesting development.

The original downtown segment of the San Antonio has no area that looks or feels suburban. I’m not sure what you mean by that comment. I have to assume you’re talking about the two mile Museum Reach segment/extension of the Riverwalk that opened ten years ago in 2009. That segment, was designed to be more park like and designed with locals/residents primarily in mind and tourists as secondary.

I honestly don’t think any part the museum reach looks suburban. Maybe you meant it seemed undeveloped along the route. If so, the.n that is understandable. When it opened in 2009, the two mile museum reach had very little development along it as it ran through the River North district and ended at the Pearl. The current museum reach before revitalization was an undeveloped overgrown section of the San Antonio River tgat was no bigger than a big creek. Homeless people camped out along side it. It ran through an area that was mostly industrial. Now, the area that was mostly industrial is called River North and has had five large residential developments built in the last 5 years with six either under construction or soon to break ground..

Here is a picture from last week showing some of River North and the development happening.

https://i.imgur.com/0uXd1PO.jpg

Even the Pearl back in 2009 was still in its infancy. The Pearl back then was literally just one renovated builder called the full goods building. Now, now the Pearl is a world renown district with a five diamond hotel and has helped spread development like wild fire in adjacent River North and Lower Broadway.

Here is a picture from last week showing a little of the Pearl. Two office buildings are under construction currently and soon right next to those buildings a mixed use office/hotel tower will begin construction right next to those two buildings currently under construction. W Hotel will be the flagship for that hotel.

https://i.imgur.com/2zujP1a.jpg

Thanks for the update Josh. Haven't been down in about 5 years or so.

This may not be the right thread, but Pete, perhaps a real and critical look at the canal and why it hasn't been developed the way it should would be of interest. The property owners along it have seemingly never really invested to make it what it should be. Seems like they looked for the windfall from the beginning instead of understanding the city was just priming the pump. New signs in BT won't solve the real problems with the canal and owners sitting on it. A full, in depth, no holds barred expose in the Gazette would be a great start. Can we expect one that will pull back the curtain and name names? If the Oklahoman won't, then surely you will. It's time to poke the bear on this issue.

Thanks for the update Josh. Haven't been down in about 5 years or so.

This may not be the right thread, but Pete, perhaps a real and critical look at the canal and why it hasn't been developed the way it should would be of interest. The property owners along it have seemingly never really invested to make it what it should be. Seems like they looked for the windfall from the beginning instead of understanding the city was just priming the pump. New signs in BT won't solve the real problems with the canal and owners sitting on it. A full, in depth, no holds barred expose in the Gazette would be a great start. Can we expect one that will pull back the curtain and name names? If the Oklahoman won't, then surely you will. It's time to poke the bear on this issue.

It’s my pleasure Rover.

If you’re interested, I made a somewhat recent post about the riverwalk and posted two videos showing the downtown section of the Riverwalk. The first one is a bardge ride time lapse that shows most (but not all) of the downtown segment.

The other is a family walking around and showing it off in that perspective. That video features the old bardges. The first video features the new bardges that have been in use on the Riverwalk for the last year and a half.

Here is the link (http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23542&page=87&p=1063427#post1063427).

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23542&page=87&p=1063427#post1063427

It’s my pleasure Rover.

If you’re interested, I made a somewhat recent post about the riverwalk and posted two videos showing the downtown section of the Riverwalk. The first one is a bardge ride time lapse that shows most (but not all) of the downtown segment.

The other is a family walking around and showing it off in that perspective. That video features the old bardges. The first video features the new bardges that have been in use on the Riverwalk for the last year and a half.

Here is the link (http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23542&page=87&p=1063427#post1063427).

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23542&page=87&p=1063427#post1063427
Hey Josh - are you not doing your San Antonio development updates on here anymore? I haven't seen one in awhile.

Hey Josh - are you not doing your San Antonio development updates on here anymore? I haven't seen one in awhile.

I haven’t done any in a good while because I’ve just been busy with work and life, but I’ll try and update and get consistent with posting there. A lot of happening a new things get announced weekly and I def wanted to get all that stuff posted.

I haven’t done any in a good while because I’ve just been busy with work and life, but I’ll try and update and get consistent with posting there. A lot of happening a new things get announced weekly and I def wanted to get all that stuff posted.
Awesome! I always look forward to your updates.

Thanks for the update Josh. Haven't been down in about 5 years or so.

This may not be the right thread, but Pete, perhaps a real and critical look at the canal and why it hasn't been developed the way it should would be of interest. The property owners along it have seemingly never really invested to make it what it should be. Seems like they looked for the windfall from the beginning instead of understanding the city was just priming the pump. New signs in BT won't solve the real problems with the canal and owners sitting on it. A full, in depth, no holds barred expose in the Gazette would be a great start. Can we expect one that will pull back the curtain and name names? If the Oklahoman won't, then surely you will. It's time to poke the bear on this issue.
Rover, we have a name. Randy Hogan.

Rover, we have a name. Randy Hogan.

I'm talking about the real story about upper canal, not just the lower. And, how did Mr. Hogan really get the deal done. Why is there no pressure to fully develop the parking lots along lower. Mr. Hogan is an obvious target, but can't do these things alone.

I'm talking about the real story about upper canal, not just the lower. And, how did Mr. Hogan really get the deal done. Why is there no pressure to fully develop the parking lots along lower. Mr. Hogan is an obvious target, but can't do these things alone.

I know Randy Hogan was competing against Moshe Tal. You can thank God every day that Hogan got it instead,

No

I know Randy Hogan was competing against Moshe Tal. You can thank God every day that Hogan got it instead,

Are you delusional what Bricktown is is suburbia. Oklahoma city should stand for more then that but no instead of urbanizing combining it with Oklahoma city's culture to create elaborate developments we end up with big boxy buildings and empty parking lots.I'm happy for Tulsa they're a smaller city smaller city (population wise) and still manages to be more dense have better retail as well as attractions such as the BOK center and that award winning park and have first class hotels. I recommend you go look at some of Tal's partners at the time and you will stumble upon the name David Cordish a credible developer with masterpiece developments such as the lighthouse district.Tal may have had personal interest when it came to the development but mind it was way better then a Toby kieth restaurant,empty parking lots, boxy buildings and best of all in a metropolitan area that has a population of above 600k a bass pro shop.

are you delusional what bricktown is is suburbia. Oklahoma city should stand for more then that but no instead of urbanizing combining it with oklahoma city's culture to create elaborate developments we end up with big boxy buildings and empty parking lots.i'm happy for tulsa they're a smaller city smaller city (population wise) and still manages to be more dense have better retail as well as attractions such as the bok center and that award winning park and have first class hotels. I recommend you go look at some of tal's partners at the time and you will stumble upon the name david cordish a credible developer with masterpiece developments such as the lighthouse district.tal may have had personal interest when it came to the development but mind it was way better then a toby kieth restaurant,empty parking lots, boxy buildings and best of all in a metropolitan area that has a population of above 600k a bass pro shop.

ok...

These are the already known stories. What I suggested is that the Gazette do a REAL investigative piece such as we criticize the Oklahoman for not doing. What’s the story behind the stories. Who did the dirty deeds to let Hogan get his way. How come after all these years the upper part STILL hasn’t really developed? Who is the roadblock and why? What can we do?

I have been told that the developers have walked away from this project due to environmental concerns and clean-up costs. It is my understanding that the current owners are trying to get into the DEQ Brownfields program to try and get the property cleaned up so they can hopefully sell at some point. There are a lot of unknowns about the levels of contamination and no full environmental site assessment has been conducted at this point. And even then, phase 1 and phase 2 assessments might not identify all the problems. That whole area was at one time part of the OKC oil fields shortly after the turn of the 20th century. Experience has shown that historical records from that period are not reliable. Ask Gary Brooks about that when he was developing the Steel Yards. All the undocumented hidden environmental surprises he encountered as that development progressed. There is a fair amount of contamination on the Co-Op site. Such that there is a chance it will never be viable for residential development.

Thanks very much for the details, although the news is disappointing.

I believe this means that any MAPS4 soccer stadium will now have to focus on the Strawberry Fields area to the west of Scissortail Park. That is *very* expensive land, so I'm not sure how that would work.

I have been told that the developers have walked away from this project due to environmental concerns and clean-up costs. It is my understanding that the current owners are trying to get into the DEQ Brownfields program to try and get the property cleaned up so they can hopefully sell at some point. There are a lot of unknowns about the levels of contamination and no full environmental site assessment has been conducted at this point. And even then, phase 1 and phase 2 assessments might not identify all the problems. That whole area was at one time part of the OKC oil fields shortly after the turn of the 20th century. Experience has shown that historical records from that period are not reliable. Ask Gary Brooks about that when he was developing the Steel Yards. All the undocumented hidden environmental surprises he encountered as that development progressed. There is a fair amount of contamination on the Co-Op site. Such that there is a chance it will never be viable for residential development.

Thanks for the info yukong; this is why this land will never be worth $3 million an acre... They cosmetically cleaned the surface like putting pancake over a face that has severe cancerous acne.

I wonder if this increases or decreases the odds of this eventually being a big out of place suburban style shopping strip. Higher land cost makes me think less, but I am not sure about that.

Laramie...that is a great analogy. The site has a lot of issues. And we know there is contamination. Just not how bad. And that is the problem. It could be bad. The asking price is such that no one is willing to gamble on it. The asking price is high, even for land with no environmental issues. So, it is to big a gamble for anyone to buy "as is." And if you remove the possibility of residential from the development, that greatly decreases the options. Now two big developers have attempted to buy it, and both have ultimately walked away. Funk's group was the first. They recognized the pitfalls. Now this second group has walked. It may be a while before we see anything go in there. Sad situation. As it stands, I somewhat wish the big silos and structures were still there. Oh well.