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Look @ the company's existing projects, they are all parking lot/big box stripmalls.


I want to be optimistic, but unfortunately I'm worried that is what will be built there. I would say something like Belle Isle shopping center or University North Park in Norman are examples of what to expect on the Producer's Coop site.

I agree. I wouldn't mind a Wal-Mart if it was something like this.

http://www.mma-architects.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Fort-Totten.psd_0000s_0003_Fort-Totten-Walmart-3207Rt-V2-1200x700.jpg

But if it's a standard cookie cutter big box Wal-Mart Supercenter with a huge surface parking lot I would have rather the cotton mill just stayed.

I'm continually surprised walmart doesn't do this for every one of their stores. Affordable housing above, likely with employees living there and tenant rents paying for the build out and property taxes. Also, with non-employee residents, you have built in customers. Who's going to live there and go anywhere else to shop?

Pete, are you hearing anything that will calm down the always negatives on this board?

Steve has repeatedly said the preliminary plans are a above expectations. At least for now know their intentions are good. Until I hear anything further, I'm very optimistic about this.

Pete, are you hearing anything that will calm down the always negatives on this board?

Not really.

I do know there is now a big wrinkle because of the railroad easements. Not only where they just pulled up track but old easements that run through the property that were never used. I was told the railroads want a ton of money (like 7 figures) and everyone knows they are notoriously difficult to deal with.

Also, there were old oil wells on that site.

Things seem to be pretty much on hold while they figure out how to deal with these issues.

Have you guys done any research on Sooner Investments? I will be ecstatic if we get anything better than a water-downed version of what Chisholm Creek development is.

Look @ the company's existing projects, they are all parking lot/big box stripmalls.
http://soonerinvestment.com/?page_id=9

This is probably one of the worst developers for this land and to hold your breath for anything pedestrian oriented without millions of sq footage in surface parking is a death sentence. Look @ their website, it is horrendous and has dead links everywhere. I'm not even sure this developer has the pockets to pull off the COOP site.

And I hope that does sound harsh, because I so badly want to be proven wrong. I still think the city messed up by not trying to buy this property.

While I'm generally in agreement with you and hope to be proven wrong, are their existing projects materially different than Gary Brooks'/Cornerstone's prior to building The Edge? I only bring his name up because I for one, and I think probably most people, are very happy with his urban developments even though I believe, though correct me if I'm wrong, that Cornerstone's primary business prior to The Edge was suburban apartments, suburban retail, and student housing. I'm choosing to be optimistic that they'll recognize what type of development is ideal for the site even if, realistically, we're all likely to be at best slightly disappointed.

Not really.

I do know there is now a big wrinkle because of the railroad easements. Not only where they just pulled up track but old easements that run through the property that were never used. I was told the railroads want a ton of money (like 7 figures) and everyone knows they are notoriously difficult to deal with.

Also, there were old oil wells on that site.

Things seem to be pretty much on hold while they figure out how to deal with these issues.

Looks like Funk made the right decision in walking away...

Things seem to be pretty much on hold while they figure out how to deal with these issues.

Not a terrible situation. I'd rather this area sit empty for a while while the rest of downtown fills in and matures, and more people begin to understand the value of truly walkable environments, than rush around to put something here asap.

Steve has repeatedly said the preliminary plans are a above expectations. At least for now know their intentions are good. Until I hear anything further, I'm very optimistic about this.
Until this last chat. I think he said he was starting to worry again. I'll see if I can find the response to share here.

Looks like Funk made the right decision in walking away...

The biggest reason him and his investors walked away was the lack of public funding, right? The easements and oil wells were all known prior to sale.. from what I remember at least.

The biggest reason him and his investors walked away was the lack of public funding, right? The easements and oil wells were all known prior to sale.. from what I remember at least.

The easements represent a new issue not fully realized until recently.

Also, the soil abatement seems to be much more extensive than anticipated.

Remember, when Funk had that property under contract the buildings were still in place.

Maybe we could just give them the Santa Fe garage for free, oh wait? When are taxpayers going to get fed up?

Maybe we could just give them the Santa Fe garage for free, oh wait? When are taxpayers going to get fed up?

Wait, why are you bringing in a completely irrelevant, unrelated, not even remotely tangentially related topic into this? This isn't about public monies, it is about easements, which are hard to control, especially railroad easements.

Why are railroad easements difficult to control? Especially when they haven't been in use for some time? I guess I don't quite understand what a railroad easement entails and how it works compared to utility easements.

Why are railroad easements difficult to control? Especially when they haven't been in use for some time? I guess I don't quite understand what a railroad easement entails and how it works compared to utility easements.

Railroads basically own the easements and you can't build on them without their approval.

Do you or anyone have a map with these railroad easements overlaid onto it?

Do you or anyone have a map with these railroad easements overlaid onto it?

No, I was just told by someone close to the situation.

This is just an assumption, but the Assessor's parcel map shows these tracts breaking up the site. There is no account associated with the south and east tracts. A part of the tract west of Walnut appears to be owned outright by Burlington Northern.

14813

Why are railroad easements difficult to control? Especially when they haven't been in use for some time? I guess I don't quite understand what a railroad easement entails and how it works compared to utility easements.

As Pete said...railroads...both big and small, are notoriously difficult. They have incredible protections under federal and state law. It's historical. Back in the day, before cars and planes, railroads ruled the country. They had incredible power. And they still have most of that power to this day. A railroad easement is essentially forever, unless the railroad voluntarily abandons said easement. Even if there have been no tracks over that easement for generations. And for the most part, you cannot make them abandon them. You have to pay.

My company regularly deals with railroads and they are almost impossible. We have one project that is land locked. We have no way in or out to conduct our work. We do not need permanent access, just temporary for a few months and then the matter will be done. There is a railroad easement running along the property that includes a railroad utility gravel road. Just to pay to use their gravel road was so expensive, we found it was cheaper to go a longer route and build a road over another parcel of property. A lot more work...but much cheaper. That's how difficult railroads can be.

Wait, why are you bringing in a completely irrelevant, unrelated, not even remotely tangentially related topic into this? This isn't about public monies, it is about easements, which are hard to control, especially railroad easements.

It was a wild tangent ;-)
And it’s ever slightly relevant as the city continues to kowtow to massive developers.
Also yes. As I understand it, railway easements are like a decree from the almighty himself inked in blood before the record of time. You can’t do a thing, and the railway co.s have zero incentive to sell or lease them.

This project seems to now have completely stalled.

1. While seeking incentives, the City seemed to be concerned about their site plan; i.e. too suburban
2. Expensive issues with acquiring long-dormant railroad easements
3. Underestimated soil contamination

Things could change but at least for now, I wouldn't expect anything to happen here anytime soon.

I usually roll my eyes and get frustrated at delays in projects, but if these people don’t have the right vision (aka “suburban”) for the property, then I would just assume it sit for a while as the rest of the core develops.

We could have dodged a bullet here.

This project seems to now have completely stalled.

1. While seeking incentives, the City seemed to be concerned about their site plan; i.e. too suburban
2. Expensive issues with acquiring long-dormant railroad easements
3. Underestimated soil contamination

Things could change but at least for now, I wouldn't expect anything to happen here anytime soon.

Not a bad thing... I'd rather the site sit vacant till there is a demand to build something dense.

This project seems to now have completely stalled.

1. While seeking incentives, the City seemed to be concerned about their site plan; i.e. too suburban
2. Expensive issues with acquiring long-dormant railroad easements
3. Underestimated soil contamination

Things could change but at least for now, I wouldn't expect anything to happen here anytime soon.

Good thing it's stalled, the development was underwhelming, but my god, how many times do we have to hear "we underestimated how contaminated/complicated/tangled/unexpected/etc. it was, it'll take 10x as much money and time to get it done"??? This happens so often here, it's ridiculous, does OKC not have decent engineers/project managers/geologists/whoever (private and/or gov't employed)?

^

The difference here is that this was a smelly mess of a place and most are glad to see it gone.

It's not like someone bought it for a ton, tore out something valuable and now has too much money in it to ever make it work.

I'm sure things will work out in the longer term and we haven't really lost much in the process... Although I would rather have those structures because they could have been the backbone of something super cool and unique.

Kudos for the city apparently pushing back against a too suburban design.

I usually roll my eyes and get frustrated at delays in projects, but if these people don’t have the right vision (aka “suburban”) for the property, then I would just assume it sit for a while as the rest of the core develops.

We could have dodged a bullet here.

I agree. Everything I've heard about this development made me fear that it was going to be Lower Bricktown 2.0. It would be better to just not develop it yet than to allow that to happen. It's a definite sign of progress that the city put its foot down and didn't let it happen.

One of my concerns about the future of downtown OKC, especially south of the Boulevard, is that there's simply so much empty land to develop and while OKC is growing it isn't quite booming. I worry that the basic economics of having so much available land in the urban core of a medium-sized metro area that is only experiencing moderate growth will discourage density and urban development. I could be wrong though and I hope that I am. OKC is pretty unique in how much empty land there is for development in the urban core and the total amount is about to double. Keep in mind I'm speaking mostly about south of the Boulevard here, but what happens there could also impact development in other areas of the urban core.

This happens so often here, it's ridiculous, does OKC not have decent engineers/project managers/geologists/whoever (private and/or gov't employed)?

This site was privately owned and operated for decades. The city had no way of knowing the level of contamination. This was literally a case of find out as you go.

This delay and obstacles is great news. Hopefully they put it up for sale.

The city should buy it, clean it, and gift it to Amazon for HQ2. Change the city and state forever. /dream

But really this is the best news we have had in a long time regarding downtown could-be developments.

I agree. Everything I've heard about this development made me fear that it was going to be Lower Bricktown 2.0. It would be better to just not develop it yet than to allow that to happen. It's a definite sign of progress that the city put its foot down and didn't let it happen.

One of my concerns about the future of downtown OKC, especially south of the Boulevard, is that there's simply so much empty land to develop and while OKC is growing it isn't quite booming. I worry that the basic economics of having so much available land in the urban core of a medium-sized metro area that is only experiencing moderate growth will discourage density and urban development. I could be wrong though and I hope that I am. OKC is pretty unique in how much empty land there is for development in the urban core and the total amount is about to double. Keep in mind I'm speaking mostly about south of the Boulevard here, but what happens there could also impact development in other areas of the urban core.

BChris, I agree 100% and have often worried about that with respect to Downtown OKC. It's why I was initially skeptical of the entire Core To Shore concept (although I have come around). I really do think the best thing that downtown development has going for it at this point is Midtown and I am far more excited to see those vacant lots slowly disappear. Much better to get a couple dozen more 2-5 story infill buildings of all types (residential/retail/office) up there - fill that whole area out before we start grand, sweeping plans for block after block around that park. OKC is in a unique position to have all that land for the long-term, but better to be vacant than not developed properly.

This site was privately owned and operated for decades. The city had no way of knowing the level of contamination. This was literally a case of find out as you go.

So absolutely nobody at all, anywhere in the city or state gov't knew anything at all about how much the property was contaminated? No filings at all with any gov't agency by the owners, nobody had any idea what they were doing at the site and calculating probable contamination levels, just a big black hole where things went on and nobody knew anything about what went on there? To me, it's just another failing where there shouldn't've been, like the P180 crosswalks (oh, we didn't know that paint wasn't rated to be applied to that type of concrete), the Skydance bridge decking (oh, we had no idea that wood would warp so badly), P180 basement vaults (oh, we had no idea there were so many things underground), streetlights (oh, we had no idea so many lights were out, and we don't really know who handles those anyway), turnpike bridges (oh, we had no idea the design was arched too high and the concrete didn't weigh enough to flatten them out), ad nauseum.

Anyway, I *am* glad the development isn't happening, but this just seems like part 23 of the same old thing that keeps happening, and wastes money and decreases confidence in public works depts.

So absolutely nobody at all, anywhere in the city or state gov't knew anything at all about how much the property was contaminated? No filings at all with any gov't agency by the owners, nobody had any idea what they were doing at the site and calculating probable contamination levels, just a big black hole where things went on and nobody knew anything about what went on there? To me, it's just another failing where there shouldn't've been, like the P180 crosswalks (oh, we didn't know that paint wasn't rated to be applied to that type of concrete), the Skydance bridge decking (oh, we had no idea that wood would warp so badly), P180 basement vaults (oh, we had no idea there were so many things underground), streetlights (oh, we had no idea so many lights were out, and we don't really know who handles those anyway), turnpike bridges (oh, we had no idea the design was arched too high and the concrete didn't weigh enough to flatten them out), ad nauseum.

Anyway, I *am* glad the development isn't happening, but this just seems like part 23 of the same old thing that keeps happening, and wastes money and decreases confidence in public works depts.


I work in the environmental field...I can say with certainty that no one knew, or had the ability to know the levels of contamination present in the Co-op site. You must understand...back between about 1900 and 1920, the whole area that is now the southern part of downtown was an oil field with numerous wells, drilling operations and refineries. Back in those days, they were not concerned about the environment. They did not understand the long term effects of contamination. The whole issue of environmental concern is new within the last 25-30 years. No one knew. And therefore, no one kept records. But that whole area is bad. When Gary Brooks was building the Steelyard he came across all sorts of contamination issues that no one expected or knew were present. He spent tons more money than he planned though to clean it up. But he did. When the boulevard was being built between I-35 and E.K. Gaylord...ODOT found all kinds of contamination. All oil field related. I worked on that project. When the city started Scissortail Park...they found all sorts of hydrocarbons in the soil. They did a massive "dig and haul" on soil at that site. They dug it up, hauled it off, and brought in clean topsoil. I worked on that project. Until they got the buildings down, and the slabs removed, there was no good way to determine the issues at the Co-op. And just because one area might be clean, doesn't mean another one 10 feet away is clean. I know, because I've seen some of the environmental studies, that there are a number of abandoned wells on that site. There may be underground storage tanks. There is all kinds of contaminated soil. So...you really don't know until you get in there and start drilling test wells and taking groundwater and soil samples. And then, the intended future use dictates how extensive you have to be and how extensive the remediation. If the future use is just commercial, then you can clean up to commercial levels. That is, the amount of contamination you can leave. If you are going residential...then the remediation must be quite extensive. Allowable levels of contamination in residential developments must be extremely low. Residential projects may require modification to the structures such as vapor intrusion prevention measures. One of the projects in mid-town was built over an old oil site. They had to install vapor intrusion elimination systems in the homes to vent the vapors out of the homes. But the bottom line is with these old sites like this...no one knows and no one has a way to know how bad they are until the studies are done. Now in the future...after they are done...there will be records. But there weren't those requirements back in the day.

It's a long shot, and probably very unlikely. But with the proposed development now on hold, and the pop-up soccer stadium on the north side looking unlikely...

https://i.imgur.com/fZFrM.jpg

You know, as cool as the whole "If you don't like it, get out" non sequitur is, I have to agree with some of the points made. Designing a bridge that can't handle rain? Designing a road that can't handle traffic? Come on. "Love it or leave it" is the attitude that gave us this crap, not what is going to fix it.

And as for the huge solid paragraph about how contaminated stuff has been, could someone explain to me how this equates to having no idea how land used for the exact same purpose could possibly be contaminated? Strikes me as the exact opposite, should be a huge red flag. "There are a number of abandoned wells on that site" doesn't indicate an issue to anyone? I mean, at what point does common sense kick in? There's a door over there, and from behind that door there's sounds of splashing, water running, and a series of quacks. I'm going to guess behind that door is some water and at least one duck. To open said door and express surprise when water and a duck is found is just plain silly.

[Great info about the history of the site snipped]

Ah, OK, my bad, I didn't do my research, did not know that the contamination went all the way back more than 100 years and was oil/gas well related. Kind of makes sense now, but presumably someone more intimately involved with the site knew all that, even if I didn't, and they should've planned for the worst, not planned for best-case (or even middling-case) scenarios. I'm a sys admin, and I was taught to always plan for all possible outcomes/inputs when coding things, always assume someone will do the worst thing they can do and prevent them from doing it, thought other industries did the same, but maybe not.

Ah, OK, my bad, I didn't do my research, did not know that the contamination went all the way back more than 100 years and was oil/gas well related. Kind of makes sense now, but presumably someone more intimately involved with the site knew all that, even if I didn't, and they should've planned for the worst, not planned for best-case (or even middling-case) scenarios. I'm a sys admin, and I was taught to always plan for all possible outcomes/inputs when coding things, always assume someone will do the worst thing they can do and prevent them from doing it, thought other industries did the same, but maybe not.

There is no argument that the longtime co-op owners could have known more. But then, they are now paying for not being more proactive. I will also say that it is fairly common knowledge that the whole lower downtown area, to the river, was historically oil fields and refineries. From east I-35 at the fort smith junction, all the way past the farmers market. The area north of Reno out by I-35 is an old superfund site. The area along Reno at Lottie was contaminated by heavy metals. Don Karchmer spent a ton cleaning it up. (He didn’t own it when it was a metal site.). I would suspect that the Strawberry Fields project will require remediation. The park next door did. The main problem is as I said...a 100 years ago, no one thought about the long term consequences of dumping sludge and byproduct in pits and burying them. There are some old sludge pits out south of Reno east along I-40. Been there decades. Then if you want to talk about other contaminants...back in the 40s-70s there were dry cleaners all over OKC. Most of those sites are contaminated. Some extremely bad. And those contaminates cause cancer. Vapor degreasers. TCE and PCE. Those are also found around mechanic shops and airports. The old Gulfstream site is one such. Bethany is suing Gulfstream in federal court on that one. There is an old cleaners building in a strip mall that cannot be used except for storage because the vapor intrusion of PCE is too high for people to work there even a few hours a day. Many of these cleaners are in residential areas. But again...no one knew what those chemicals would do. We have only learned in recent years how dangerous these contaminates are. The Eagle Industries site is another. It will most likely be a superfund site. Tinker is a superfund site. Mostly PCE. We are learning more every day. But no one knows for sure how extensive sites are until you start testing. The Co-op was one such site.

Just think if somehow we could have cleared this land and put the American Indian Cultural Center there and an "indian village" type of master plan. ...

We can do the exact same at the current site (and I hope we do) but just imagine if it were here, so close to downtown. ..

But yes, I agree better to wait and get the right master plan while the rest of downtown densifies than to start yet another district while existing ones are still not fully developed.

Considering it will be nearly impossible and pretty expensive to remove those railroad easements (because they never cooperate, and only care about money) it might be a long time before anything happens here.

a well placed bag of tnt might take care of those rail lines...muahahaha.

a well placed bag of tnt might take care of those rail lines...muahahaha.

A dedicated group of speedfreaks given the green light would clean it up mostly in a single night.

The rail lines are already gone... It's the remaining easements that are the issue.

The rail lines are already gone... It's the remaining easements that are the issue.

and let me guess... rail line easements are not able to be purchased through eminent domain process, even though that is probably how the railway got the easements in the first place?

Eminent domain can only be performed by a government body and cannot be then given to a private developer.

Eminent domain can only be performed by a government body and cannot be then given to a private developer.

while i agree... there are many city and state governments who disagree with that limit on land use and have done so regardless.

while i agree... there are many city and state governments who disagree with that limit on land use and have done so regardless.

Courts have frowned on this. The practice generally does not hold up if prosecuted.

n/m; didn't read entire thread before replying

Eminent domain can only be performed by a government body and cannot be then given to a private developer.

So now we know the path for the canal extension. ;)

Eminent domain can only be performed by a government body and cannot be then given to a private developer.

IMO the city should proceed with an eminent domain case just to get what's surely to be an arduous process out of the way, and then put the easements in OCURA hands for now (e.g. not private). The private developer (of the coop site) will still need that land presumably, but OCURA can then leverage any handing off of that land, whether by RFP or whatever, based on the site plan of that development...

Under certain circumstances, it IS legal to use eminent domain for the purpose of economic development - check the Supreme Court ruling on Kelo v New London.

"The majority held that the city's taking of private property to sell for private development qualified as a "public use" within the meaning of the takings clause. The city was not taking the land simply to benefit a certain group of private individuals, but was following an economic development plan."

Under certain circumstances, it IS legal to use eminent domain for the purpose of economic development - check the Supreme Court ruling on Kelo v New London.

"The majority held that the city's taking of private property to sell for private development qualified as a "public use" within the meaning of the takings clause. The city was not taking the land simply to benefit a certain group of private individuals, but was following an economic development plan."


I don't believe Kelo would control in Oklahoma. It was always an interesting decision, but most states have either judicially or legislatively taken measures that would make it difficult, if not impossible, for a developer to take private property for a private use (See, e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/06/04/the-political-and-judicial-reaction-to-kelo/?utm_term=.3c6624056a79).

Oil and Gas development is an obvious exception to the above rule. But there are many wells that would never get drilled without the assistance of the OCC, Texas Railroad Commission, etc.

Courts have frowned on this. The practice generally does not hold up if prosecuted.

I wonder about how the court would feel if the RR can't produce any examples of practical uses for the right of way yet doesn't want to give it up for a better use.

So now we know the path for the canal extension. ;)

That is exactly what I thought. The city could take it and build a canal, streetcar corridor or street?

That is exactly what I thought. The city could take it and build a canal, streetcar corridor or street?

The city, even through eminent domain, would have to pay an extraordinarily high amount of money for the RR ROW. Railroads are so highly protected by federal law. They would remove the case to federal court...and the city would not get any reasonable relief. Railroads are near impossible with which to deal.

Interestingly enough, Midwest City's Town Center is a perfect example of how the public/private partnership can use eminent domain, lose the court case, but still win. The Midwest City Memorial Hospital Authority purchased up the land on 29th street as a non-profit. They did this from the money they received in leasing off Midwest City Regional Hospital (formerly Midwest City Memorial Hospital, now known as Alliance Midwest). They then had Sooner Investments develop the land.

Problem is, a few residents decided to fight the eminent domain declaration. While they did lose their homes and got only the market value for them, the court did finally decide (after the project had finished dozing all they needed to and had developed 3/4 of the property already) that the partnership was wrong and that it was an improper use of eminent domain. So they got a payoff.

But who really won there? The city did have to pay the residents in the case, but they also got a cash cow of tax revenue in the Town Center. So even though the city was shown to be in error, looks to me like they still won in the end.

I don't believe Kelo would control in Oklahoma. It was always an interesting decision, but most states have either judicially or legislatively taken measures that would make it difficult, if not impossible, for a developer to take private property for a private use (See, e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/06/04/the-political-and-judicial-reaction-to-kelo/?utm_term=.3c6624056a79).

Oil and Gas development is an obvious exception to the above rule. But there are many wells that would never get drilled without the assistance of the OCC, Texas Railroad Commission, etc.

I agree that it would be nearly impossible for a private developer to try to use eminent domain for a private development....but I believe if its a City, Economic Development Authority, or especially the obscurely powerful OCURA, I believe they could use eminent domain on the property under the auspices of cleaning up the property for the public good and then turn around and sell it for private development.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/coop100718.jpg

Hard to believe that railroad easements may prevent this project from ever getting off the ground. Kinda crazy how federal law protects them so much.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/coop102018.jpg

15054
Procrastinating on my finals, decided to mock up a future site plan for this area. Feel like this could be reasonable development??

Driving by the other day I saw equipment actively doing things and a big dirt pile I didn't think was there before. I thought this site was stalled?