Cuts in air service stifling midsized cities (http://www.cnbc.com/id/101283739)

Not sure why this needs it's own thread? And it doesn't really refer to OKC...

Oklahoma City is roughly the size of many of the cities in the article. What has befallen them, and their ability to attract economic development, could befall Oklahoma City if not vigilant.

Many of those cities are in higher density areas where the number of airports is greater in a smaller area than here. OKC has TUL and DFW/DAL to compete against...but really those aren't huge competitors. A 3 hour drive to DFW/DAL isn't common place (not saying people don't do it). A drive to TUL is pointless since much of the service is the same.

I know of people in Austin who drive to San Antonio to fly at times, mostly it is driven by the flights and times available from either airport. At one time you couldn't do a day round trip to El Paso from Austin and you could from San Antonio. Situations like that drove it more than pricing because it is close to the same price to fly out of either for most flights.

Oklahoma City is roughly the size of many of the cities in the article. What has befallen them, and their ability to attract economic development, could befall Oklahoma City if not vigilant.

OKC was never a hub a la STL, MEM, CVG, so not really a fair comparison. As long as the economy in OKC continues to do well, we'll attract more air service. If not more destinations, at least more frequencies.

There are decent numbers of people from Norman / OU who drive to DFW to catch a cheaper and often more direct flight.

There are decent numbers of people from Norman / OU who drive to DFW to catch a cheaper and often more direct flight.

And that is a big problem. With the airlines you have to prove you can fill what they give you before they give you more. We won't gain without filling what we have, and if we are sending people to Dallas we will continue to lose out.

And that is a big problem. With the airlines you have to prove you can fill what they give you before they give you more. We won't gain without filling what we have, and if we are sending people to Dallas we will continue to lose out.

Not sure how true that is. Most flights out of OKC have pretty healthy loads - and probably even better yields (which are far more important to airlines than loads). If college kids want to drive to DFW to save a few bucks, the airlines are probably okay with that. I would've done that when I was younger as well. Now I'm at a point where I'll pay for the convenience of flying out of OKC. Does it cost more? Absolutely, but I'm willing to pay for it.

With the lay overs that you sometimes have flying out of OKC the more direct flights out of DFW can sometimes make it worth the drive from a time stand point,,,, but particularly if your saving a few hundred dollars with 2 or more people.

Not sure how true that is. Most flights out of OKC have pretty healthy loads - and probably even better yields (which are far more important to airlines than loads). If college kids want to drive to DFW to save a few bucks, the airlines are probably okay with that. I would've done that when I was younger as well. Now I'm at a point where I'll pay for the convenience of flying out of OKC. Does it cost more? Absolutely, but I'm willing to pay for it.

While I won't share the number I saw from my company, leaking to DFW is a significant factor my company takes into consideration.

I would be interested to see how much leakage there is from Birmingham or Greenville SC to Atlanta, or Indianapolis to Chicago. It wouldn't surprise me if its pretty similar.

This is completely anecdotal on my part, but I can honestly say I have never known anyone from the immediate OKC metro area drive to DFW to fly domestically. I do know a few however, who have flown overseas to go to DFW, where a long layover is likely. Also, even though it is technically our market, I would guess and say folks south of, say, Pauls Valley, probably just make the drive to DFW since a trip to OKC is only about 45 minutes shorter.

There are decent numbers of people from Norman / OU who drive to DFW to catch a cheaper and often more direct flight.

How many of those kids are already from the DFW area? Remember about 35% of OU undergrads are from TX. The ironic thing is on my flight to Philly via Atlanta from OKC this past May, I sat across the aisle from Cindy Rosethal.

I would be interested to see how much leakage there is from Birmingham or Greenville SC to Atlanta, or Indianapolis to Chicago. It wouldn't surprise me if its pretty similar.

This is completely anecdotal on my part, but I can honestly say I have never known anyone from the immediate OKC metro area drive to DFW to fly domestically. I do know a few however, who have flown overseas to go to DFW, where a long layover is likely. Also, even though it is technically our market, I would guess and say folks south of, say, Pauls Valley, probably just make the drive to DFW since a trip to OKC is only about 45 minutes shorter.
Most that I have known who do it frequently are flying to Mexico, a few have done it on domestic flights but there are usually other things planned in Dallas before or after the trip. I know when I was working in Dallas out of Austin the company booked most of my flights out of DFW so I had to drive up for that, the main reason was the cost of flying out of Austin and travel time.

Most that I have known who do it frequently are flying to Mexico, a few have done it on domestic flights but there are usually other things planned in Dallas before or after the trip. I know when I was working in Dallas out of Austin the company booked most of my flights out of DFW so I had to drive up for that, the main reason was the cost of flying out of Austin and travel time.

I have to say - I've never ever heard of a business traveler being forced to drive 3+ hours to fly for a business trip. That's a bit crazy to ask an employee to do that. I have many friends who fly for business and usually an employer values an employee's time too much to ask them to do that. Plus the fact that businesses are buying tickets closer to the date of departure which are almost always more expensive anyway.

Back on topic, this leakage problem certainly isn't unique to OKC. I grew up in southwest Michigan and we often drove to ORD or DTW as a family (2-3 hours) to save a few hundred bucks, especially if flying to India. It's never going to go away. DFW is in a whole different league than OKC, much more competition - so fares will occasionally be low enough to justify that hassle for a lot of people.

I have to say - I've never ever heard of a business traveler being forced to drive 3+ hours to fly for a business trip. That's a bit crazy to ask an employee to do that. I have many friends who fly for business and usually an employer values an employee's time too much to ask them to do that. Plus the fact that businesses are buying tickets closer to the date of departure which are almost always more expensive anyway.

Back on topic, this leakage problem certainly isn't unique to OKC. I grew up in southwest Michigan and we often drove to ORD or DTW as a family (2-3 hours) to save a few hundred bucks, especially if flying to India. It's never going to go away. DFW is in a whole different league than OKC, much more competition - so fares will occasionally be low enough to justify that hassle for a lot of people.
It had to do with the contracts they were working under, it covered flights from Dallas. The company that was contracting us for the work I was less than impressed with on a whole bunch of levels. For other projects I flew out of Austin.

Smaller, non-hub airports generally have higher fares and suffer a problem with leakage. When I lived in Little Rock, it was common for people to just drive to Memphis rather than fly out of Little Rock. However, I doubt leakage to DFW is as big of a factor as you would think for OKC. Most airport traffic is business rather than leisure/vacations and businesses aren't going to fly their employees to DFW and make them take a bus to OKC. I think proximity to Tulsa is more of a factor. Tulsa's airport is almost as large as OKC's. Because of that, unless your destination is in the immediate OKC metro area, there is no reason to fly in or out of OKC. Southern Oklahoma goes to DFW, and northern/eastern Oklahoma goes to Tulsa.

Since I dont live in OKC, this article has made me curious. Recently there was a new route added to Orlando. If I recall, the flight was soon eliminated due to lack of business. When an airline adds a new destination, is the airline setting a good price or do they try to charge a monopoly fare that guarantees failure?

The only way all the cities that think themselves worthy to get good service is through Government subsidies. Right back to Gov regulation of the airline industry.

Since I dont live in OKC, this article has made me curious. Recently there was a new route added to Orlando. If I recall, the flight was soon eliminated due to lack of business. When an airline adds a new destination, is the airline setting a good price or do they try to charge a monopoly fare that guarantees failure?

The new flight to Sanford (Orlando) is on Allegiant and no, the route hasn't been eliminated.

Most airlines enter a market expected it to perform with in 12 months. Allegiant is a different animal where if pre-sales are weak before they start, they'll kill the route - case in point was Wichita Falls to Las Vegas a few years back. Airlines aren't going to come in to gouge people, but they are going to expect a profit. The problem is most people still think that it is profitable to fly coast to coast for $99.

As far as Dallas leakage, I can't comment on what Catch knows I can only go off of what Karen at the airport sent me. Their view is that leakage to Dallas isn't a major issue at all and isn't worth studying. Take it for what it's worth.

Since I dont live in OKC, this article has made me curious. Recently there was a new route added to Orlando. If I recall, the flight was soon eliminated due to lack of business. When an airline adds a new destination, is the airline setting a good price or do they try to charge a monopoly fare that guarantees failure?

Not sure about pricing in general, but Allegiant Air still has the nonstop OKC-Orlando (Sanford) route, I believe. It doesn't run every day. It is more for vacationers and not business. It is dirt cheap.
WRWA > CITIES SERVED NONSTOP (http://www.flyokc.com/Cities.aspx)
Allegiant Air (http://www2.allegiantair.com)
Airline Begins Non-Stop Service Between OKC, Orlando - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/23971183/airline-begins-non-stop-service-between-okc-orlando)

As far as Dallas leakage, I can't comment on what Catch knows I can only go off of what Karen at the airport sent me. Their view is that leakage to Dallas isn't a major issue at all and isn't worth studying. Take it for what it's worth.

Venture, that issue has been discussed here several times in the past and, as someone who has dealt with this every day for many years, I agree with Karen. The percent of business travelers that I deal with who would drive to DFW is zero.

Venture, that issue has been discussed here several times in the past and, as someone who has dealt with this everyday for many years, I agree with Karen. The percent of business travelers that I deal with who would drive to DFW is zero.

Exactly!!!! And business travelers are the ones airlines not named allegiant care about the most, not the once or twice a year bargain shopper. As I've said, if anyone is actually willing to drive 3+ hours and deal with dallas traffic to save a few bucks, go right ahead.

How many of those kids are already from the DFW area? Remember about 35% of OU undergrads are from TX. The ironic thing is on my flight to Philly via Atlanta from OKC this past May, I sat across the aisle from Cindy Rosethal.

A lot of OU kids do come from the DFW area, but some that don't come from that area stay with those who do, the night before an early morning flight.

While it may not be a great amount I would be willing to bet that there are more people driving to DFW from Oklahoma to catch flights than a lot of OKC officials would be willing to admit.

And that is a big problem. With the airlines you have to prove you can fill what they give you before they give you more. We won't gain without filling what we have, and if we are sending people to Dallas we will continue to lose out.

What can the city / airport do to make OKC more attractive to local flyers?

What can the city / airport do to make OKC more attractive to local flyers?

About the only thing would be offer incentives / revenue guarantees to get more competition in here to start putting pressure on fares. The downside of that is you risk pissing off the incumbents once their yields get trashed.

A lot of OU kids do come from the DFW area, but some that don't come from that area stay with those who do, the night before an early morning flight.

While it may not be a great amount I would be willing to bet that there are more people driving to DFW from Oklahoma to catch flights than a lot of OKC officials would be willing to admit.

No doubt - the price-conscious bargain hunter headed on spring break has no issue with driving to DFW. I'm sure AA (and everyone else for that matter) is well aware of that. However the high-yield business travelers that the legacies target (and make the vast majority of their revenues from) will continue to use OKC. AA couldn't care less about the bargain hunters flying Spirit to Fort Lauderdale. I for one think OKC has pretty decent air service for our market. We're connected to both coasts on legacies, which is huge step up from before. Wouldn't at all be shocked to see the new AA start PHL or CLT. Sad reality is that with consolidation, hubs such as STL, MEM, CVG are a thing of the past. Plus with DFW so close, OKC would've never had a reliever hub to begin with. So these complaints about bargain-chasers fleeing to DFW are really non-starters in my opinion.

About the only thing would be offer incentives / revenue guarantees to get more competition in here to start putting pressure on fares. The downside of that is you risk pissing off the incumbents once their yields get trashed.

Plus they'll price the new entrants right out of the market. Airfares are higher now than in recent memory - which will hopefully lead to more stable, profitable airlines that are willing to grow.

Airlines sell bargain fares for a reason. They count on them to make the formula work, they can often be the "last mile" to breaking even on a flight. Saying they are not interested in them at all is a common myth.

Airlines sell bargain fares for a reason. They count on them to make the formula work, they can often be the "last mile" to breaking even on a flight. Saying they are not interested in them at all is a common myth.

Sure, but there's a difference between fare sales, which are I think relatively infrequent and often last-minute - and the across-the-board fare cuts some here are proposing OKC needs in order to "re-capture" those who make the trek to DFW.

I'm not talking about fare sales or price slashing.

The airline does depend on the price sensitive passenger to a degree, to fill in the small gray area between a loss and a profit. The deep discount fare buckets are in the same formula as the first class high-fare buckets, all parts of the formula are necessary. So yes the airline wants them, just not in every seat.

No doubt - the price-conscious bargain hunter headed on spring break has no issue with driving to DFW. I'm sure AA (and everyone else for that matter) is well aware of that. However the high-yield business travelers that the legacies target (and make the vast majority of their revenues from) will continue to use OKC. AA couldn't care less about the bargain hunters flying Spirit to Fort Lauderdale. I for one think OKC has pretty decent air service for our market. We're connected to both coasts on legacies, which is huge step up from before. Wouldn't at all be shocked to see the new AA start PHL or CLT. Sad reality is that with consolidation, hubs such as STL, MEM, CVG are a thing of the past. Plus with DFW so close, OKC would've never had a reliever hub to begin with. So these complaints about bargain-chasers fleeing to DFW are really non-starters in my opinion.

Whatever the reasons for OKC not having a hub airport, the fact that it does not have one hurts the city when it comes to corporate relocations. I am not complaining, OKC is doing fine economically, but I've heard OKC has been considered many times for relocations and lost out due to not having a hub. I guess with consolidation and everything the chances of OKC getting a hub at this point is simply zilch especially being so close to DFW. All of that said, OKC's airport traffic is well above most of its peer cities with the exception of those that have hubs. I think that's a good sign for our airport.

We've hit on it before, but I guess it is time again. There seems to be some that misconceive just how many hubs there really are. You can have quality air service without a hub. The current "hubs" in the US include:

ANC (AS), PHX (AA), LAX (AS,UA), SFO (UA, VX), DEN (F9, UA), MIA (AA), FLL (NK), ATL (DL), HNL (HA), ORD (UA, AA), DTW (DL), MSP (DL), EWR (UA), JFK (AA, DL, B6), LGA (DL), CLT (AA), CLE (UA), PDX (AS), PHL (AA), DFW (AA), IAH (UA), SLC (DL), IAD (UA), DCA (AA), SEA (AS), BOS (B6).

To that list you can add the top 10 WN markets which each have over 100 flights a day (SAN will have 100+ next year)... MDW, LAS, BWI, DEN, ATL, PHX, HOU, DAL, LAX, and MCO.

I've put in bold the 3 airports with hubs in a metro area smaller than OKC. Two are throw aways because of geography...and really SLC is what is thanks to the old Western Airlines hub. Also the fact there is it is really isn't any other option out there for a connecting hub that isn't already used.

We have that...now how about the cities/MSAs bigger than us with no hub:

SAN, TPA, STL, PIT, SAT, SMF, CVG, MCI, CMH, IND, SJC, AUS, BNA, ORF, PVD, MKE, JAX, and MEM. While we are at it...add in SDF, RIC, MSY, BDL, RDU, BHM, BUF, ROC, and GRR. Those are the remaining metro areas of over a million people.

Yes some of those have strong leisure traffic and are significant cities for a few airlines, but they aren't officially hubs. If we really want to, we should be going through and comparing to those cities to see where we are where it comes to airline service, income levels, employment, etc.

Airlines sell bargain fares for a reason. They count on them to make the formula work, they can often be the "last mile" to breaking even on a flight. Saying they are not interested in them at all is a common myth.

I think you're exaggerating what I'm saying. Nowhere did I say that the legacies don't care about filling their Y cabins. Obviously they care, given how high LFs are these days - there are obviously plenty of affordable seats out there. All I'm saying is that w/r/t all this "leakage" to DFW everyone here is complaining about - I doubt it's really significant to get any of the airlines to notice. As long as the legacies get their share of high-yield travelers and sell enough in economy out of OKC, they'll live with some bleed to DFW.

Whatever the reasons for OKC not having a hub airport, the fact that it does not have one hurts the city when it comes to corporate relocations. I am not complaining, OKC is doing fine economically, but I've heard OKC has been considered many times for relocations and lost out due to not having a hub. I guess with consolidation and everything the chances of OKC getting a hub at this point is simply zilch especially being so close to DFW. All of that said, OKC's airport traffic is well above most of its peer cities with the exception of those that have hubs. I think that's a good sign for our airport.

I'm sorry but I find that hard to believe. It's not like we're CVG who had a true hub with hundreds of flights a day (and multiple flights to Europe), and then lost it via consolidation. If a corporation was used to having that level of service and no longer doesn't, that's one thing. If anything OKC is better served now than ever before. So if corporations are saying they'd come here but aren't because OKC isn't a hub? Yeah right - sounds like a pretty weak excuse.

Plus add the cost of parking at dfw and round trip of fuel. Plus last thing I want to do after a flight is drive 3 hours. No thank you. I just can see the cost difference being THAT significant. It's a 30 min flight.

Plus add the cost of parking at dfw and round trip of fuel. Plus last thing I want to do after a flight is drive 3 hours. No thank you. I just can see the cost difference being THAT significant. It's a 30 min flight.
After having to do that a few times I agree. If I got late into Dallas I would just go to my uncle's house (Preston & Frankford area) and stay there for the night, head into the office the next morning and then head to Austin in the afternoon.

Plus add the cost of parking at dfw and round trip of fuel. Plus last thing I want to do after a flight is drive 3 hours. No thank you. I just can see the cost difference being THAT significant. It's a 30 min flight.

When I flew over Thanksgiving it was about a $600 for two people. That, coupled with the added 4 hours or so of travel time each way made it worth it to me. But I was flying somewhere with no real good flight options.