Well, I for one don't see transcontinental HSR happening. I see regional hubs with common integration points on the edges. You could still travel across a lot of the country but you would have to switch trains so many times you would be better off flying.

Completely agree. I see it more like a typical point to point network, think Southwest in the 80s/90s. You could get across country, but it'll take 3 to 4 stops to get you there. If you really wanted to take the train all the way, you can but it isn't something that would be advertised or the main focus. It would be a good excursion type experience, but it isn't going to attract the high revenue business passenger.

Well, I for one don't see transcontinental HSR happening. I see regional hubs with common integration points on the edges. You could still travel across a lot of the country but you would have to switch trains so many times you would be better off flying.

JTF, it will take some time for this to mature. When the airlines begin to lose marketshare to the Region HSR systems, it will be interesting to see what the airlines do next. Increase Fares, Provide less flights, etc.

Completely agree. I see it more like a typical point to point network, think Southwest in the 80s/90s. You could get across country, but it'll take 3 to 4 stops to get you there. If you really wanted to take the train all the way, you can but it isn't something that would be advertised or the main focus. It would be a good excursion type experience, but it isn't going to attract the high revenue business passenger.

Southwest based their entire business model on this formula....and it worked well. So well, they took this plan across the US and became a major, ..and many business travelers use it everyday.

I'm not sure how much HSR will affect airlines. Orly is mostly a French domestic airport and it still has 25 million passengers.

Completely agree. I see it more like a typical point to point network, think Southwest in the 80s/90s. You could get across country, but it'll take 3 to 4 stops to get you there. If you really wanted to take the train all the way, you can but it isn't something that would be advertised or the main focus. It would be a good excursion type experience, but it isn't going to attract the high revenue business passenger.

I agree with you Venture, it will be a very nice alternative to the airports for the family who wants to get to Disneyland / Walt Disney World / Sea World in San Antonio....or the new indoor snow skiing we have in OKC, plus our new Cowboy Hall of Fame on the Park.

Southwest based their entire business model on this formula....and it worked well. So well, they took this plan across the US and became a major, ..and many business travelers use it everyday.

You would also be wise to notice they are abandoning the model as well and focusing on longer stage lengths and less stops. They made the previous strategy work thanks to no frills, low cost service. HSR likely won't be offering OKC-DFW for $19 one way when Acela is already way over $100 for a NYC to WAS run. Most scheduled tickets with Southwest are either nonstop or have only one stop...not the multiple they use to. Passengers want nonstop, affordable service - not a handful of connections. So if HSR follows the old formula, it isn't going far.

The MagLev is coming soon...

Japan offers to lend US half the cost of 'Super Maglev' train between Washington and Baltimore - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/10555330/Japan-offers-to-lend-US-half-the-cost-of-Super-Maglev-train-between-Washington-and-Baltimore.html)

Can we stop the cross polluting of threads and stick to the topic. Vision...you still haven't explained how the cost/time factor is going to make any long distance HSR competitive against air.

OKVision4U is also forgetting the fact about keeping track straight. You can put very very slight curves in a high speed rail network for maintaining speeds at over 100MPH. He wants 300MPH?! Come on now....ain't going to happen. Even if OKC is a central hub, you still have to build HSR tracks to the west and bore through some portion of the Sangre de Christo Mountain Range in New Mexico. I doubt OKVision4U is aware of the battle that BNSF went through to expand their Abo Canyon Route in Central New Mexico to a double track set-up but they had to fight tooth and nail with local preservationists that were afraid the new route would ruin the habitat of the local mountain goats. To put HSR through anything is going to cost a lot of money whether its the foothills of the Rockies or 14ers.

I doubt OKVision4U is aware of the battle that BNSF went through to expand their Abo Canyon Route in Central New Mexico to a double track set-up but they had to fight tooth and nail with local preservationists that were afraid the new route would ruin the habitat of the local mountain goats.

HSR Ba-a-a-a-a-ad. Goats Go-o-o-o-o-od.

I'm sorry venture, I forgot you were still here. No, you are still Way Too Swayed By the Airlines to ever understand the needs of a consumer.As a consumer, I agree with Venture. 5hours vs. 12hours...... hmmmmmmm ;)

and I like flying and looking out the window of an airplane and being above the clouds so yeeeeaaaahh

Now how about reading and addressing the challenges I presented. So far you are ignoring anything negative. How are you going to overcome pricing/travel times vs. air travel issues that current rail runs into?We need to invent and innovate. I've always dreamed of buying BSNF one day and redoing the tracks making the cars 350% bigger, integrating the trains into the tracks(eliminating derailments), and making the trains go up to speeds of 600-700MPH. The cost would be astronomical for the infrastructure as well as trying to come up with a technology that could make trains go that fast. Of course, by the time that happens, we will have hypersonic planes that can go 1,500MPH lol

I agree with you Venture, it will be a very nice alternative to the airports for the family who wants to get to Disneyland / Walt Disney World / Sea World in San Antonio....or the new indoor snow skiing we have in OKC, plus our new Cowboy Hall of Fame on the Park.


JTF, it will take some time for this to mature. When the airlines begin to lose marketshare to the Region HSR systems, it will be interesting to see what the airlines do next. Increase Fares, Provide less flights, etc.They won't loose market share if their not competitive. Lets get the technology to get these trains 700+MPH and then we can talk being competitive, but as Venture has already pointed out, the time difference is a no brainier. 12 hours VS. 5 hours..

Hyperloop anyone? ;)Didn't the Hyperloop go something a 1,000MPH? I don't see the Hyperloop taking off though.

Interesting development on the OKC - Tulsa rail line. ODOT has claimed (and most everyone else assumed they were being truthful) that any passenger service operating on the state owned/Stillwater Central RR operated line would have to terminate in Sapulpa. I just saw a press release from the Tulsa City Council that clearly shows the sale contract of the line from BNSF to the state of Oklahoma requires BNSF to permit up to four passenger trains per day over the BNSF right of way between Sapulpa and Tulsa Union Station. This makes passenger rail service much more feasible - the remaining right of way issue is getting to the Santa Fe intermodal hub in OKC now. ODOT is an utterly worthless organization in dire need of housecleaning especially at the top.


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Probably nobody told "the train guy" at ODOT about it

(the message about that option not being known reminded me of an off-hand comment from the head of ODOT that made it sound like one overworked guy handled every rail issue for the entire state)

Probably nobody told "the train guy" at ODOT about it

(the message about that option not being known reminded me of an off-hand comment from the head of ODOT that made it sound like one overworked guy handled every rail issue for the entire state)

Lol - that is pretty close to being true from everything I have learned about ODOT.

Haha! I've met him and I believe that's pretty true.

I hate it when people lie, tell half-truths, or make things up. Here is the deal, if you have to do one of those things to support your position you really need to find a new position.

Speed won't be a factor in Tulsa-Oklahoma City rail link | News OK (http://newsok.com/speed-wont-be-a-factor-in-tulsa-oklahoma-city-rail-link/article/3921956)

I hate it when people lie, tell half-truths, or make things up. Here is the deal, if you have to do one of those things to support your position you really need to find a new position.

Speed won't be a factor in Tulsa-Oklahoma City rail link | News OK (http://newsok.com/speed-wont-be-a-factor-in-tulsa-oklahoma-city-rail-link/article/3921956)

I find it amusing the DOK and others are acting as if this Eastern Flyer excursion is how a long term passenger operation between OKC and Tulsa would operate. It has been made very clear these three trips are demonstration runs for "what could be". The equipment being used in February is used in various locations sometimes coupled to the rear of Amtrak long distance trains, so it has been refurbished and meets modern regulations (except possibly some ADA requirements for new equipment.) But it is not what would be used in a higher frequency quasi commuter service - people really have no idea of the extent of the disinformation that ODOT and other organizations spread about transportation issues in this state and the US as a whole.


If there were to be regularly scheduled passenger service on this line, it would require upgrades to the track and signal system, but speeds would be MUCH higher than claimed by ODOT and the DOK editorial writers who likely know nothing other than what ODOT has told them. IIRC, passenger trains operated at 70 mph on this exact line using 1950's era equipment so there is no reason 50-60 mph average speeds would not be the norm once welded rail and modern CTC/PTC is installed with modern equipment. There is no reason a modernized version of the Bombardier LRC used in Canada and the US Northeast would not work very well on the state owned line without extensive changes to the path it takes. LRC (train) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LRC_(train))

There is clearly interest in passenger rail service in OK but I think the outcome may be predetermined by ODOT, Ridley, et al. The hubris and utter disregard for sound public policy at ODOT is disgusting. I laugh every time I hear anyone utter "fiscal responsibility" and ODOT in the same sentence.

These Heavy Rail Passenger Trains are using the same lines as the freight lines. This is a primary reason for the slow times. The avg. speed ( 30 mph ).

This is why the HSR system will be on its (own) tracks and not getting tangled up in the freight lines.

Well it is crap like this that ticks me off.


To back up to a time when passenger rail was widespread and economically viable will take a huge chunk of taxpayer money.

Does the DOK know how much the ODOT budget is and how much of that goes to roads? They (ODOT) had to get a special appropriation from the federal government just to keep their 8 year road construction schedule on track (no pun intended). For a state full of Tea Party types it is amazing that there is so much support for the government to subsidize private transportation. Some times I think I am the only Tea Party person that is capable of consistent and rational thought. The public should fund public transportation and the private sector should fund private transportation.

BTW - spot on about the DOK editor not knowing the difference between an excursion train (for sight seeing purposes) and commuter service. He is probably the type of person that speeds on the Grand Canyon's South Rim Road because there is nothing to see but canyon.

Some times I think I am the only Tea Party person that is capable of consistent and rational thought.

You are one of the few I have ever come across that demonstrates those traits. :D

OKVision4U is also forgetting the fact about keeping track straight. You can put very very slight curves in a high speed rail network for maintaining speeds at over 100MPH. He wants 300MPH?! Come on now....ain't going to happen. Even if OKC is a central hub, you still have to build HSR tracks to the west and bore through some portion of the Sangre de Christo Mountain Range in New Mexico. I doubt OKVision4U is aware of the battle that BNSF went through to expand their Abo Canyon Route in Central New Mexico to a double track set-up but they had to fight tooth and nail with local preservationists that were afraid the new route would ruin the habitat of the local mountain goats. To put HSR through anything is going to cost a lot of money whether its the foothills of the Rockies or 14ers.

No, I am very aware of the needs / requirements to obtain a High Speed Rating. Sorry OKCisOK4me, but the speeds will be considerably over 200 mph in the onset. Having a HSR HUB in OKC will allow all the trains to enter at a higher rate of speed ( open & flat ) from all directions.

Opposition to the Eastern Flyer has little to do with train speeds. Everyone, including ODOT, knows that the former Frisco rail line could be upgraded to provide fast and effective passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. The real behind-the-scenes issue that is driving the State's decision-making and lack of support for passenger rail service on the Frisco line is the fact that BNSF wants to buy the section of the line that is owned by the State between Sapulpa and Oklahoma City in order to gain rail access to Cushing, Oklahoma for the purposes of transporting oil from Cushing's enormous oil storage facilities to major refining and marketing hubs, such as Houston. Governor Fallin and Secretary of Transportation Gary Ridley are heavily involved in the effort to ensure the line is sold to BNSF, even though the Stillwater Central Railroad Company has had a long-term lease on the line and provides critical shipping services for many businesses. In addition, Stillwater Central continues to spend significant amounts of money upgrading the line and are favorable supporters of sharing operations with passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. ODOT is towing the political line for the administration on the sale of the line, and unfortunately they are structuring the proposed sale in such a way to ensure that BSNF is the eventual purchaser. The smoke-room deal has not gone unnoticed, and last session a bill was introduced at the legislature that would have provided Stillwater Central a first right of refusal to buy the line. That legislation gained significant majority support, however the Governor threatened to veto the bill and it died in the Senate. House Transportation Chair Representative Charlie Joyner introduced the legislation, and he, along with numerous other state legislators who support retaining State ownership of the line and establishment of passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City are continuing efforts this session to try to prevent transfer of the line to BNSF. It's an uphill special interest battle that will most likely be lost. And the losers will be the citizens of the State of Oklahoma.

Isn't there a new pipeline from Cushing to Houston either recently completed or nearing completion

I really hate that your final assessment is the likely outcome Hutch, but I know you have been working on these issues for quite a while now. As always follow the money to the politicians (and DOT staff) to see what is going to happen. The tax payers lose every time yet most are too blind to realize they have been lied to and sold a charade of "fiscal responsibility" when it comes to transportation infrastructure. Oil and highway lobbies are very powerful and it will be difficult to overcome their deep coffers and influence.

But just to show once again that ODOT has lied and their willing accomplices at the DOK failed to investigate beyond an ODOT press release, check out the video below of the LRC service VIA Rail ran in the 80's and 90's. Push/pull operations with low center of gravity cars and diesel power are the easy and obvious answers to just about every excuse I have heard why "passenger operations are too hard" on the state owned OKC-Tulsa line.

Fast passenger service is possible on that line. VIA once made the 313 mile run between Montreal and Toronto in just under four hours using LRC equipment. It really would not take that much effort to modernize vehicles such as the LRC (Light, Rapid, Comfortable) locomotives and car sets to present day emission and safety standards. They already operate(d) with freight traffic in some of the busiest corridors in Canada. (And it only costs $39 one way: http://www.viarail.ca/en/explore-our-destinations/trains/ontario-and-quebec/toronto-montreal )


http://youtu.be/XMRS_qi4s0Q

Opposition to the Eastern Flyer has little to do with train speeds. Everyone, including ODOT, knows that the former Frisco rail line could be upgraded to provide fast and effective passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. The real behind-the-scenes issue that is driving the State's decision-making and lack of support for passenger rail service on the Frisco line is the fact that BNSF wants to buy the section of the line that is owned by the State between Sapulpa and Oklahoma City in order to gain rail access to Cushing, Oklahoma for the purposes of transporting oil from Cushing's enormous oil storage facilities to major refining and marketing hubs, such as Houston. Governor Fallin and Secretary of Transportation Gary Ridley are heavily involved in the effort to ensure the line is sold to BNSF, even though the Stillwater Central Railroad Company has had a long-term lease on the line and provides critical shipping services for many businesses. In addition, Stillwater Central continues to spend significant amounts of money upgrading the line and are favorable supporters of sharing operations with passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. ODOT is towing the political line for the administration on the sale of the line, and unfortunately they are structuring the proposed sale in such a way to ensure that BSNF is the eventual purchaser. The smoke-room deal has not gone unnoticed, and last session a bill was introduced at the legislature that would have provided Stillwater Central a first right of refusal to buy the line. That legislation gained significant majority support, however the Governor threatened to veto the bill and it died in the Senate. House Transportation Chair Representative Charlie Joyner introduced the legislation, and he, along with numerous other state legislators who support retaining State ownership of the line and establishment of passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City are continuing efforts this session to try to prevent transfer of the line to BNSF. It's an uphill special interest battle that will most likely be lost. And the losers will be the citizens of the State of Oklahoma.

Wow, thanks for that insight.

Fast passenger service is possible on that line. VIA once made the 313 mile run between Montreal and Toronto in just under four hours using LRC equipment. It really would not take that much effort to modernize vehicles such as the LRC (Light, Rapid, Comfortable) locomotives and car sets to present day emission and safety standards. They already operate(d) with freight traffic in some of the busiest corridors in Canada. (And it only costs $39 one way: Toronto-Montréal train ? Overview | VIA Rail (http://www.viarail.ca/en/explore-our-destinations/trains/ontario-and-quebec/toronto-montreal) )



A couple years ago the kids and I flew to Detroit, took a cab from the airport, bused across the border into Canada, and took another cab to the VIA station in Windsor. We took the train ~4hrs to Toronto and it was a pleasant experience. I was astounded at how cheap it was for the three of us. Do we know if the Canadian government subsidizes VIA the way we do Amtrak?

Isn't there a new pipeline from Cushing to Houston either recently completed or nearing completion

That's correct, and it will help reduce the glut of oil in storage at Cushing. But Cushing is one of the main storage hubs for oil in the US. The new pipeline does not eliminate the need for other oil transportation services out of Cushing, including rail transport.

A couple years ago the kids and I flew to Detroit, took a cab from the airport, bused across the border into Canada, and took another cab to the VIA station in Windsor. We took the train ~4hrs to Toronto and it was a pleasant experience. I was astounded at how cheap it was for the three of us. Do we know if the Canadian government subsidizes VIA the way we do Amtrak?

VIA is very similar to Amtrak in its history, funding, and operations. It is subsidized/funded at a much more reasonable level as compared to Amtrak however and nowhere near as much of a preferred target even though it does have its detractors.

Opposition to the Eastern Flyer has little to do with train speeds. Everyone, including ODOT, knows that the former Frisco rail line could be upgraded to provide fast and effective passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. The real behind-the-scenes issue that is driving the State's decision-making and lack of support for passenger rail service on the Frisco line is the fact that BNSF wants to buy the section of the line that is owned by the State between Sapulpa and Oklahoma City in order to gain rail access to Cushing, Oklahoma for the purposes of transporting oil from Cushing's enormous oil storage facilities to major refining and marketing hubs, such as Houston. Governor Fallin and Secretary of Transportation Gary Ridley are heavily involved in the effort to ensure the line is sold to BNSF, even though the Stillwater Central Railroad Company has had a long-term lease on the line and provides critical shipping services for many businesses. In addition, Stillwater Central continues to spend significant amounts of money upgrading the line and are favorable supporters of sharing operations with passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. ODOT is towing the political line for the administration on the sale of the line, and unfortunately they are structuring the proposed sale in such a way to ensure that BSNF is the eventual purchaser. The smoke-room deal has not gone unnoticed, and last session a bill was introduced at the legislature that would have provided Stillwater Central a first right of refusal to buy the line. That legislation gained significant majority support, however the Governor threatened to veto the bill and it died in the Senate. House Transportation Chair Representative Charlie Joyner introduced the legislation, and he, along with numerous other state legislators who support retaining State ownership of the line and establishment of passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City are continuing efforts this session to try to prevent transfer of the line to BNSF. It's an uphill special interest battle that will most likely be lost. And the losers will be the citizens of the State of Oklahoma.

Of course, those who support the sale of the line to BNSF will not welcome any efforts that would demonstrate the potential for viable passenger rail service and create additional public and legislative support for State retention of the line.

Can someone name me a single transportation system that isn't subsidized? The only real questions are, does the subsidy produce desirable results and is the subsidy sustainable? If either answer is no, then why provide the subsidy?

Can someone name me a single transportation system that isn't subsidized? The only real questions are, does the subsidy produce desirable results and is the subsidy sustainable? If either answer is no, then why provide the subsidy?

Exactly! Secretary of Transportation Gary Ridley and ODOT officials have repeatedly stated that it is their intent to return all state-owned rail assets to the private sector where they belong. So why does rail transportation infrastructure and right-of-way belong in the private sector and not highway infrastructure and right-of-way? That's because no private entity could operate and maintain our roads, highways and bridges without converting them all to toll roads and charging enormous fees to all users. Without the billions and billions of taxpayer dollars collected every year to subsidize our roads, highways and bridges, our auto-centric transportation system would grind to a halt.

Lynchburg-Roanoke Amtrak passenger-rail agreement announced - Roanoke Times: Roanoke (http://www.roanoke.com/news/local/roanoke/article_e96db82a-7949-11e3-8e5b-001a4bcf6878.html)

It also isn't a Republican or Democrat issue - even in VA with its far right leaning Governor and legislature, there is a "transportation plan" that makes rail transport a viable option for its people. Same for North Carolina.

Oklahoma only has a highway plan and ODOT should be renamed Oklahoma Dept Of Roads, or ODOR.

Meanwhile, back at the farm...

Exclusive: $40M apartments on track near downtown SunRail station - Orlando Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/latin/2013/12/exclusive-40m-apartments-on-track.html)


Winter Park Construction Co. is expected to break ground next week on downtown Orlando’s first apartment complex tied directly to the SunRail commuter rail.

...

Crescent Central Station is slated to create 500 temporary construction jobs and is a piece of the larger, $200 million transit-oriented Central Station project by Houston-based Rida Development Corp.

The apartment portion will include 12,000 square feet of ground-level retail along with an integrated parking garage, public park and pedestrian access into the Lynx Central Station and future SunRail station just to the west.

Future phases include a 126-room hotel and 260,000 square feet of office space with a parking garage and another public park.


For more info on the Central Station Project

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2013/06/rida-crescent-communities-share.html

http://www.lordaecksargent.com/design/housing-and-mixed-use/mixed-use/crescent_central_station/

At this time neither the state nor a municipality is evolved in these excursion trains. This is a 100% privately funded project.

When a rail line, state owner or not, crosses a rail line operated by another company, an operating agreement must be in place.

No, I am very aware of the needs / requirements to obtain a High Speed Rating. Sorry OKCisOK4me, but the speeds will be considerably over 200 mph in the onset. Having a HSR HUB in OKC will allow all the trains to enter at a higher rate of speed ( open & flat ) from all directions.

Yes, I'm well aware of the speeds being at or above 200MPH. That's why I stated that even at 100MPH--minimum--the curves would have to be ever so slight and if you're aware of how curvy the line is on BNSF's Transcon Route, you'd know that no freight or passenger train could handle those curves at 100MPH.

Yes, I'm well aware of the speeds being at or above 200MPH. That's why I stated that even at 100MPH--minimum--the curves would have to be ever so slight and if you're aware of how curvy the line is on BNSF's Transcon Route, you'd know that no freight or passenger train could handle those curves at 100MPH.

A lot of places on the transcontenental routes went up to 120 in the heyday of rail, the thing was freight rail does not need that speed for the type of load they haul, which was why most lines are only maintained now to expect around 55 or 80

Opposition to the Eastern Flyer has little to do with train speeds. Everyone, including ODOT, knows that the former Frisco rail line could be upgraded to provide fast and effective passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. The real behind-the-scenes issue that is driving the State's decision-making and lack of support for passenger rail service on the Frisco line is the fact that BNSF wants to buy the section of the line that is owned by the State between Sapulpa and Oklahoma City in order to gain rail access to Cushing, Oklahoma for the purposes of transporting oil from Cushing's enormous oil storage facilities to major refining and marketing hubs, such as Houston. Governor Fallin and Secretary of Transportation Gary Ridley are heavily involved in the effort to ensure the line is sold to BNSF, even though the Stillwater Central Railroad Company has had a long-term lease on the line and provides critical shipping services for many businesses. In addition, Stillwater Central continues to spend significant amounts of money upgrading the line and are favorable supporters of sharing operations with passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. ODOT is towing the political line for the administration on the sale of the line, and unfortunately they are structuring the proposed sale in such a way to ensure that BSNF is the eventual purchaser. The smoke-room deal has not gone unnoticed, and last session a bill was introduced at the legislature that would have provided Stillwater Central a first right of refusal to buy the line. That legislation gained significant majority support, however the Governor threatened to veto the bill and it died in the Senate. House Transportation Chair Representative Charlie Joyner introduced the legislation, and he, along with numerous other state legislators who support retaining State ownership of the line and establishment of passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City are continuing efforts this session to try to prevent transfer of the line to BNSF. It's an uphill special interest battle that will most likely be lost. And the losers will be the citizens of the State of Oklahoma.
This is neither surprising nor unexpected.

Continual perpetual motion machine of disappointment from our fearless leader...

A lot of places on the transcontenental routes went up to 120 in the heyday of rail, the thing was freight rail does not need that speed for the type of load they haul, which was why most lines are only maintained now to expect around 55 or 80

All very true but remember, OKVision4U is talking about 200MPH+ ;-)

Eastern Flyer train from Sapulpa to Oklahoma City sells out all three trips - Tulsa World: Transportation (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/transportation/eastern-flyer-train-from-sapulpa-to-oklahoma-city-sells-out/article_9948617a-794d-11e3-b906-001a4bcf6878.html)

I'm not sure if this has already been posted, but the Eastern Flyer has sold out its 900 tickets for its 3 trips in February. Hopefully this will continue and become enough of a success to expand rail transit into both Downtowns!

Yes, I'm well aware of the speeds being at or above 200MPH. That's why I stated that even at 100MPH--minimum--the curves would have to be ever so slight and if you're aware of how curvy the line is on BNSF's Transcon Route, you'd know that no freight or passenger train could handle those curves at 100MPH.

Yes, any area that restricts the layout will reduce the speed, but the HSR will have its own path. It may mirror some of the existing lines in location, but it does need to be as straight as possible, with only slight long curves.

Quite surprised all those tickets sold. Did someone like a Boone Pickens buy them all up so it will appear as a success? Only to be sold at cheaper prices?


Yes, any area that restricts the layout will reduce the speed, but the HSR will have its own path. It may mirror some of the existing lines in location, but it does need to be as straight as possible, with only slight long curves.

My god I feel like I'm talking to myself. Yes, all the lines will have to be engineered completely new because the grades and curvature will have to be very minimal deviations to allow 300MPH traffic. Am I talking to a wall here? lol. I've been subscribed to Trains Magazine since 1989. I'm well aware of railroading--past, present & future.

My god I feel like I'm talking to myself. Yes, all the lines will have to be engineered completely new because the grades and curvature will have to be very minimal deviations to allow 300MPH traffic. Am I talking to a wall here? lol. I've been subscribed to Trains Magazine since 1989. I'm well aware of railroading--past, present & future.

To a wall? That's an insult to walls everywhere. :) You actually know what you are talking about...big difference. Anyone with common sense can look at the map of the existing lines out there and see how much they have to curve through the mountains. It's not going to be a straight line...at least not a cheap one.

Opposition to the Eastern Flyer has little to do with train speeds. Everyone, including ODOT, knows that the former Frisco rail line could be upgraded to provide fast and effective passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. The real behind-the-scenes issue that is driving the State's decision-making and lack of support for passenger rail service on the Frisco line is the fact that BNSF wants to buy the section of the line that is owned by the State between Sapulpa and Oklahoma City in order to gain rail access to Cushing, Oklahoma for the purposes of transporting oil from Cushing's enormous oil storage facilities to major refining and marketing hubs, such as Houston. Governor Fallin and Secretary of Transportation Gary Ridley are heavily involved in the effort to ensure the line is sold to BNSF, even though the Stillwater Central Railroad Company has had a long-term lease on the line and provides critical shipping services for many businesses. In addition, Stillwater Central continues to spend significant amounts of money upgrading the line and are favorable supporters of sharing operations with passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. ODOT is towing the political line for the administration on the sale of the line, and unfortunately they are structuring the proposed sale in such a way to ensure that BSNF is the eventual purchaser. The smoke-room deal has not gone unnoticed, and last session a bill was introduced at the legislature that would have provided Stillwater Central a first right of refusal to buy the line. That legislation gained significant majority support, however the Governor threatened to veto the bill and it died in the Senate. House Transportation Chair Representative Charlie Joyner introduced the legislation, and he, along with numerous other state legislators who support retaining State ownership of the line and establishment of passenger rail service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City are continuing efforts this session to try to prevent transfer of the line to BNSF. It's an uphill special interest battle that will most likely be lost. And the losers will be the citizens of the State of Oklahoma.

Wow. This is a damn shame. Fallin is an idiot and I hope Joyner can garner support.

If Tulsa already had Amtrak running through--say from Dallas to St. Louis, which is unnecessary because the Texas Eagle already exists--then it would be a no brainer that Amtrak run between OKC and Tulsa like it does Kansas City and St. Louis, except that line makes sense because the Missouri state capitol is smack dab in the middle at Jefferson City. Honestly just need to extend the Heartland Flyer up through Tulsa into Kansas City. BNSF can't say no to the government.

Make it worth it to BNSF...contract with them to start part of the commuter rail in the metro area.

Make it worth it to BNSF...contract with them to start part of the commuter rail in the metro area.

why would they do that?

why would they do that?

Really? Are you not aware that BNSF does passenger service as well? BNSF is one of the operators of the Metra for the Chicago-Aurora line. It's the busiest route on the Metra network as well. Union Pacific is also another operator of a few of the Metra lines.

Perhaps you should read up on what commuter rail actually is and how it works elsewhere: Metra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metra)

Really? Are you not aware that BNSF does passenger service as well? BNSF is one of the operators of the Metra for the Chicago-Aurora line. It's the busiest route on the Metra network as well. Union Pacific is also another operator of a few of the Metra lines.

Perhaps you should read up on what commuter rail actually is and how it works elsewhere: Metra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metra)

I just wanted to hear you say it. It sounds better from an airline guy. See, people do want rail.

I just wanted to hear you say it. It sounds better from an airline guy. See, people do want rail.

You keep saying this and I don't get it.

Most airline people are pro-transit. When we travel around to other cities, we usually go to places with good transit options to avoid renting a car. I had lunch with a Vice President of my company, several months ago, and he rides the transit system to work every morning. A guy who probably has 2 or 3 Mercedes Benz in his garage, takes transit to work.

You keep saying this and I don't get it.

Most airline people are pro-transit. When we travel around to other cities, we usually go to places with good transit options to avoid renting a car. I had lunch with a Vice President of my company, several months ago, and he rides the transit system to work every morning. A guy who probably has 2 or 3 Mercedes Benz in his garage, takes transit to work.

I don't think he can grasp the concept that people in the transportation industry tend to enjoy all forms. I love taking the train and El when I'm back in Chicago. It is much better than sitting in traffic on 88 coming in from the west burbs where I normally stay. His comment really makes no sense, especially considering the time and enthusiasm I've shared when it comes to establishing commuter rail here. It is quite humorous to see him think he has any of us in a "gotchya" moment, when he could have easily taken the time and read back through these transit threads for the last many months and years and noticed - oh hey, they do want this. I would love nothing better than to get on the train in Norman and ride it up to town for work every day. It would be much more productive use of my time (being able to get on my laptop and work some on other projects I have) instead of my +/- 45 minute commute back and forth every day.

I'm not really sure what he was trying to prove though because his comment as a whole makes no sense...heck even in parts.

"I just wanted to hear you say it." simply just translates to - 'I had no idea about that setup, but I'm not going to allow you prove me the idiot I am.'

"It sounds better form an airline guy." - Because that means anything when it is concerning commuter rail? I don't see Delta, American, or United gearing up to fly from Westheimer to Will Rogers anytime soon. :)

"See, people do want rail." - I'm still trying to figure out where I've said people don't...let alone anyone has said it. Hell I want rail and that's been pretty clear.

I'm really at a loss with this one. From claiming OKC should go after the Olympics to some random 20-story tower on Highway 9 in South Norman, this person is either 13 years old and extremely ambitious but immature...or they are setting up a profile for the next character on Criminal Minds. It's almost kinda sad to watch such behavior and the person not listen to other and adopt reason/common sense into their way of thinking. Of course...if someone doesn't want to be rational in a discussion and would rather just be a distraction, then what can we do?

I don't think he can grasp the concept that people in the transportation industry tend to enjoy all forms. I love taking the train and El when I'm back in Chicago. It is much better than sitting in traffic on 88 coming in from the west burbs where I normally stay. His comment really makes no sense, especially considering the time and enthusiasm I've shared when it comes to establishing commuter rail here. It is quite humorous to see him think he has any of us in a "gotchya" moment, when he could have easily taken the time and read back through these transit threads for the last many months and years and noticed - oh hey, they do want this. I would love nothing better than to get on the train in Norman and ride it up to town for work every day. It would be much more productive use of my time (being able to get on my laptop and work some on other projects I have) instead of my +/- 45 minute commute back and forth every day.

I'm not really sure what he was trying to prove though because his comment as a whole makes no sense...heck even in parts.

"I just wanted to hear you say it." simply just translates to - 'I had no idea about that setup, but I'm not going to allow you prove me the idiot I am.'

"It sounds better form an airline guy." - Because that means anything when it is concerning commuter rail? I don't see Delta, American, or United gearing up to fly from Westheimer to Will Rogers anytime soon. :)

"See, people do want rail." - I'm still trying to figure out where I've said people don't...let alone anyone has said it. Hell I want rail and that's been pretty clear.

I'm really at a loss with this one. From claiming OKC should go after the Olympics to some random 20-story tower on Highway 9 in South Norman, this person is either 13 years old and extremely ambitious but immature...or they are setting up a profile for the next character on Criminal Minds. It's almost kinda sad to watch such behavior and the person not listen to other and adopt reason/common sense into their way of thinking. Of course...if someone doesn't want to be rational in a discussion and would rather just be a distraction, then what can we do?

Venture, The Airline Industy as a whole, does not want to see regional / transcontinental rail be successful, that kinda dips into the ( profit margins ) they want to protect as long a they can. At the CEO level, this is a quarterly struggle they have. The business / economic concepts may have went over your head. I was not referring to the individuals that may be "affiliated" w/ an industry, ie. employees.

This blog is about OKC matters, and that is my primary POV. Absolutely, the airlines are NOT providing additional services to our market, in fact they are providing less value every year. Less flights, Puddle Jumping Props Only, higher cost, & Grandma getting mugged in the security areas. This is the airline industry as a whole, their market is shrinking and they are clammering for "parashutes".

And Thank you for remembering a couple a great ideas that would provide some long-term goals to shoot for. OKC should continue to build to a "world class" event ( like the Olympics) that would keep our building standards at a level that will attract New Business / New Developments / New Jobs for all. If we are not successful in a bid for the Olympics, so be it. OKC would still be exactly where it should be in standards & desire. Yeah, thanks for reminding me of that.

And the 20 story Mixed Use Residential Tower in Norman off of Hwy 9? ...sure, there is not one now correct? ...so this would be the first? ...so this would be the only up-scale option for a Division I school like OU? ...this would be the only trendy place for 18-30 year olds in Norman? ..the one with the Starbucks & Book Store on the lower levels? ...the one that has true security for all the 30,000 college students ( moms & dads would feel much better if their daughter was protected)? ....yes, thank you for reminding me why it would be a Business Success. Yes, it would be 100% occupied.

Venture, The Airline Industy as a whole, does not want to see regional / transcontinental rail be successful, that kinda dips into the ( profit margins ) they want to protect as long a they can.

Well here's the thing since you are so in tune with what our industry wants. Short flights are bleeding cash right now because the fuel prices don't allow them to be profitable anymore - at least not at the ridiculous fares some passengers expect. Go to the Southwest facebook page during every sale. You'll see people whine about not having a $69 fare from Fort Lauderdale to LAX. Now, are airlines opposed to a full regional rail network? I would think there are some definite concerns. Dallas-Houston would piss off the three Texas airlines...sorry two since United is technically based in Chicago. However, transcontinental rail will never compete with air service. They are going to serve two completely different markets. Time sensitive and business travel is going by air - those are the people that make the airline money. Leisure pax that are wanting the transcon journey be part of their experience are going to go for rail, but a lot will still go to air.


At the CEO level, this is a quarterly struggle they have. The business / economic concepts may have went over your head. I was not referring to the individuals that may be "affiliated" w/ an industry, ie. employees.

Yes...the airline business model is completely over my head. How could anyone who has spent 20 years invested in the industry in one form or another understand it. The continuous struggle right now is with fuel and labor costs, rail is an after thought that some low mid management person is expected to stay updated on. Perhaps some day I'll take the time to educate you on our industry, but this a rail thread and no more time should be wasted.


This blog is about OKC matters, and that is my primary POV. Absolutely, the airlines are NOT providing additional services to our market, in fact they are providing less value every year. Less flights, Puddle Jumping Props Only, higher cost, & Grandma getting mugged in the security areas. This is the airline industry as a whole, their market is shrinking and they are clammering for "parashutes".

Well this is a forum/message board not a blog, so please get your terminology right. :) Okay one more airline comment. You say IN FACT they are providing less value and then define it. Oh silly man. Here are the facts: http://www.okctalk.com/transportation/36144-2014-oklahoma-commercial-aviation-discussion.html Go read. We are technically at a net gain of flights when you considering G4's addition. Puddling jumping props? The only turboprop powered aircraft into here are flown by Dash 8 Q400s which has the fuselage length just a couple feet under a 737-700 and it seats 71 people - some of them in the United fleet also have first class (not sure about the specific ones here). So what is your definition of puddle jumper? The days of the 19-seater have been gone from OKC for a long long time. Higher costs - yes fares are up...blame fuel. Grandma getting mugged? Why is it that I go through the TSA very frequently that I never have any problems? Oh - and I don't have any airline ID out while doing so, so that isn't an reason. :) Market is shrinking? Stop talking out of your ass. Here are the numbers: BTS | Air Carrier Traffic Statistics (http://apps.bts.gov/xml/air_traffic/src/index.xml) 2013 YOY from 2012 was up almost 3 million more pax on scheduled airlines, up 1.5 million overall with non-scheduled flights included. RPMs were up almost 10 million more pax miles. ASMs were up almost 4 million more seat miles - MORE CAPACITY. Yes...everyone is just running for their parachutes in an industry that is still growing while also going through significant consolidation.

If you wish to be educated any further on the airline industry, please join us in that thread. For now...back to rail.

All the Q400's have first class. They also have economy plus seating (extra leg room in certain rows)

Venture, The Airline Industy as a whole, does not want to see regional / transcontinental rail be successful, that kinda dips into the ( profit margins ) they want to protect as long a they can. At the CEO level, this is a quarterly struggle they have. The business / economic concepts may have went over your head. I was not referring to the individuals that may be "affiliated" w/ an industry, ie. employees.

This blog is about OKC matters, and that is my primary POV. Absolutely, the airlines are NOT providing additional services to our market, in fact they are providing less value every year. Less flights, Puddle Jumping Props Only, higher cost, & Grandma getting mugged in the security areas. This is the airline industry as a whole, their market is shrinking and they are clammering for "parashutes".

And Thank you for remembering a couple a great ideas that would provide some long-term goals to shoot for. OKC should continue to build to a "world class" event ( like the Olympics) that would keep our building standards at a level that will attract New Business / New Developments / New Jobs for all. If we are not successful in a bid for the Olympics, so be it. OKC would still be exactly where it should be in standards & desire. Yeah, thanks for reminding me of that.

And the 20 story Mixed Use Residential Tower in Norman off of Hwy 9? ...sure, there is not one now correct? ...so this would be the first? ...so this would be the only up-scale option for a Division I school like OU? ...this would be the only trendy place for 18-30 year olds in Norman? ..the one with the Starbucks & Book Store on the lower levels? ...the one that has true security for all the 30,000 college students ( moms & dads would feel much better if their daughter was protected)? ....yes, thank you for reminding me why it would be a Business Success. Yes, it would be 100% occupied.dude, you should really just stop and accept the fact that Venture is owning you on every level. Just say ok I was wrong and acknowledge you just want a nationwide hsr. There is nothing wrong with wanting that; but attacking the airlines to try and make a point for building the hsr is not a good strategy and will likely cause you to loose all credibility.