Pete, when I look at the Assessor site, I only see the areas (approximately) outlined in yellow as OIA land (wasn't sure if the guard center was being included, so that is a dotted line). How are they getting down to 74th? Did I miss something or is the Assessor site not updated?

16981

Red is current boundaries. Blue is the area Laramie mentioned but not sure how that relates to Tinker specifically.

Pete, when I look at the Assessor site, I only see the areas (approximately) outlined in yellow as OIA land (wasn't sure if the guard center was being included, so that is a dotted line). How are they getting down to 74th? Did I miss something or is the Assessor site not updated?

16981

Red is current boundaries. Blue is the area Laramie mentioned but not sure how that relates to Tinker specifically.

the OKC municipal improvement authority / the city of OKC own the property below what you outlined

Pete, when I look at the Assessor site, I only see the areas (approximately) outlined in yellow as OIA land (wasn't sure if the guard center was being included, so that is a dotted line). How are they getting down to 74th? Did I miss something or is the Assessor site not updated?

16981

Red is current boundaries. Blue is the area Laramie mentioned but not sure how that relates to Tinker specifically.

The city owns pretty much everything east of Douglas and south of 59th all the way to I-240.

I still don't know how this land is viable. There are tons of oil wells with horse heads on them. Will they have to work around them? Not sure how that would work. Or pay the company to plug them (and for future revenues lost)?

Not that familiar with these lands other than they are classified as reserves. It does give Tinker AFB growth options. As for the land needing to be cleared and old oil sites, honestly IDK. Horses we know could be relocated.

Senator Inhofe is pushing legislation that gives Tinker AFB and other Oklahoma military institutions a life line.

16982

Updated map with those properties highlighted. Technically "United States of America" owns to the NW corner of 74/Douglas, so I could see them moving the fence to 74th and putting a south gate on Douglas at 74th.

Tinker is such a godsend for OKC and the state.

26,000 steady, well-paying jobs with benefits. And more to come.

In West OKC you have Hobby Lobby, Amazon and a ton of other distribution centers.

In addition to the huge amount of state employees, all of this is why OKC is way more economically diversified than in the past and the primary reasons our employment numbers are always strong.

Tinker is such a godsend for OKC and the state.

26,000 steady, well-paying jobs with benefits. And more to come.

In West OKC you have Hobby Lobby, Amazon and a ton of other distribution centers.

In addition to the huge amount of state employees, all of this is why OKC is way more economically diversified than in the past and the primary reasons our employment numbers are always strong.

All of this is spot-on, Pete! And another bonus, Tinker is ALWAYS hiring more people, like always. There are large career fairs for Tinker jobs frequently! Companies open up shop there all the time, without much fanfare, as well. Sure, you have the Boeing's and Northrop Grumann's that get publicity (deservedly so, especially Boeing, since they have many thousands of employees near and on Tinker), but there are plenty of companies on Tinker, or very near it, that have 100s and 1000s of employees (I live at 89th and Sooner, so I see it almost daily).

Tinker is such a godsend for OKC and the state.

26,000 steady, well-paying jobs with benefits. And more to come.

In West OKC you have Hobby Lobby, Amazon and a ton of other distribution centers.

In addition to the huge amount of state employees, all of this is why OKC is way more economically diversified than in the past and the primary reasons our employment numbers are always strong.

+1 and too many zeros

And a complete interchange rebuild was just announced by ODOT for Douglas and I-40. Douglas will probably just be its own gate, stifling traffic connections to MWC from I-240 that would normally take Douglas.

As an occasional commuter of this route, Sooner Rd is the initial alternative, but not looking forward to going through more of the middle of MWC just to get out south.

Re: Tinker AFB
With the closing of Douglas Blvd. they need to upgrade Post Rd. and add interchanges at I-40 and I-240

Tinker is up to 31,000 employees

Re: Tinker AFB
With the closing of Douglas Blvd. they need to upgrade Post Rd. and add interchanges at I-40 and I-240

I don’t think so.

Tinker is up to 31,000 employees

26K is the number the Chamber used but I'm not sure how they are calculating that.

In any event, Tinker is a massive economic engine.

I wonder if this is expansion to prepare for servicing the new B-21 bomber

Good point. All other bomber PDM is here so it only makes sense for B-21 PDM to be here a well. It'd be different if either B-1 or B-2 were immediately retiring but I'm certain there will be overlap so B-21 will need it's own facilities. That said, seems like B-21 will resemble B-2 greatly so perhaps it wouldn't be much to adapt B-2 facilities for B-21.

I wonder if this is expansion to prepare for servicing the new B-21 bomber

From 2018: https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/11/16/air-force-announces-bases-that-will-test-maintain-the-new-b-21-stealth-bomber/

Good point. All other bomber PDM is here so it only makes sense for B-21 PDM to be here a well. It'd be different if either B-1 or B-2 were immediately retiring but I'm certain there will be overlap so B-21 will need it's own facilities. That said, seems like B-21 will resemble B-2 greatly so perhaps it wouldn't be much to adapt B-2 facilities for B-21.

PDM for the B-2 is in Palmdale california ..

Oops, SSM is here (like B-1, where I worked), so presumed PDM was here (like B-1).

Oops, SSM is here (like B-1, where I worked), so presumed PDM was here (like B-1).

B-2 software dev ops are at Tinker and so sometimes they come here for a software test/upgrade ..

IIRC the entire B-21 Depot will be located at TAFB

^^^^^
From the image in this article it looks that way:

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/the-raider-takes-shape/

B-2 software dev ops are at Tinker and so sometimes they come here for a software test/upgrade ..

IIRC the entire B-21 Depot will be located at TAFB

Yes I participated in joint initiatives in 1083 a few times

Yes I participated in joint initiatives in 1083 a few times

a few jobs ago i used to go over that way quite a bit .. but now i am on the other side of base ..

26K is the number the Chamber used but I'm not sure how they are calculating that.

In any event, Tinker is a massive economic engine.

26K civilian.

Re: Tinker AFB
With the closing of Douglas Blvd. they need to upgrade Post Rd. and add interchanges at I-40 and I-240

AMEN, there are a LOT of us that use Douglas to get to MWC from the southside and this is going to suck for us. At least put ramps at Post and get it up to 4 lanes BEFORE you close Douglas. MWC already has post at 4 lanes from 29th (the MWC line), north). With the increased traffic Post will get, it's going to HAVE to happen OKC.

Sooner is already EXTREMELY busy and has a lot of stop lights too. So using it as the alternative isn't an option. And it would really suck to have to add 2 miles to everyone's trip to go east and then west to get around this new closure.

And the closure isn't even needed. There are still so many options that are available that would keep Douglas open. There's no shortage of land on base. It's just more land-grabbing because they know if they ask, they will get it because no one wants to give any inkling of push back so we keep Tinker here. We're getting bullied into this.

The base has wanted to close Douglas for years due to the transfer of aircraft between Boeing and the main depot. If they're adding more maintenance/contractor capability on the east side, it makes more sense (both practical and security) for the base to close the street to public access to allow that to happen.

Recent aerial that shows the work north of the old GM plant. My goodness, this operation is just a massive financial engine for the OKC area with much more planned.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/tinker12221a.jpg

It's amazing to review an outline of just how much is done at this base. For example, losing the GM plant was a huge blow but now they build two different aircraft engines there.

The former GM plant and building 3001 are both around 2.6 million sqare feet under roof.

Half of Tinker’s E-3 airborne surveillance jets would be cut under Air Force budget proposal.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2022/03/29/half-of-tinkers-e-3-airborne-surveillance-jets-would-be-cut-under-air-force-budget-proposal/

Half of Tinker’s E-3 airborne surveillance jets would be cut under Air Force budget proposal.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2022/03/29/half-of-tinkers-e-3-airborne-surveillance-jets-would-be-cut-under-air-force-budget-proposal/

They'd replace them with E-7 Wedgetails, though obviously it's no guarantee that Tinker would be home to the new aircraft. This was an interesting part of that article:


Airmen at Tinker spoke to Air Force Times in July 2021 about low morale that has long plagued their AWACS units and is exacerbated by the stressors of an old, sometimes unpredictable aircraft. When asked what could be done to improve the culture there, multiple people said getting rid of the E-3 would be ideal.

Seems like this is a move that needs to happen.

Half of Tinker’s E-3 airborne surveillance jets would be cut under Air Force budget proposal.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2022/03/29/half-of-tinkers-e-3-airborne-surveillance-jets-would-be-cut-under-air-force-budget-proposal/

doubt that survives Inhofe and the committee but either way wedgetail is coming to Oklahoma soon

They'd replace them with E-7 Wedgetails, though obviously it's no guarantee that Tinker would be home to the new aircraft. This was an interesting part of that article:



Seems like this is a move that needs to happen.

that quote is about moral is garbage

that quote is about moral is garbage

try to give people more to respond to than just a hot take... why do you think the section about morale is garbage?

try to give people more to respond to than just a hot take... why do you think the section about morale is garbage?

because i know

look do i think they talked to some one that said that sure with thousands of people you can find any opinion you want

Having been stationed at a unit with only TWO E-3s and seeing how useless those damned aircraft are, I can't imagine that's a garbage take. Those jets are always broke.

Having been stationed at a unit with only TWO E-3s and seeing how useless those damned aircraft are, I can't imagine that's a garbage take. Those jets are always broke.

Are the E-3s more of a pain to maintain than the b-52's and B-1's? Those dinosaurs have been around for a long time.

I don't think people have to worry about Tinker, even if the base didn't get E-7 something will come to Tinker, especially with the new military spending surge that will probably come after this new cold war with Russia.

Are the E-3s more of a pain to maintain than the b-52's and B-1's? Those dinosaurs have been around for a long time.

I don't think people have to worry about Tinker, even if the base didn't get E-7 something will come to Tinker, especially with the new military spending surge that will probably come after this new cold war with Russia.

And the base is already locked in as a main maintenance base for the new B-21 stealth bombers for the next 20+ years (thank you Senator Inhofe!). I can't wait to see those things flying overhead.

It bears watching but the Tinker Navy uses the same basic platform (Boeing 707) as AF E-3. When Navy moved here the savings was part of reason. Not only consolidating Navy assets in one location but also they use same basic platform - and there were common airframe items - so there was savings in both Navy/AF using same 707 basic platform. Of course missions and everything else are different. Curious if any reduction or complete deletion of AF E-3 crosses over to Navy. Didn’t see this mentioned in article. Repair costs go up for Navy if they keep current 707 but likely would have more spare parts as well. Have not heard of maintenance problems with Navy assets either but theirs is newest models.

The E-6's TACAMO mission is likely going to be replaced by C-130s (https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/us-navy-accelerates-tacamo-nuclear-communications-recap-plan) and thus probably located closer to the coasts. The other Air Force plane that's derived from the 707 is the KC-135 tanker, which is already in the process of being phased out by the 767-based KC-46 (though this airframe has some pretty significant teething problems (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/01/26/kc-46-vision-system-problems-lead-to-402-million-charge-for-boeing/)). So in a decade or so it would not be a surprise to see the E-3, E-6 and KC-135 all replaced by the Wedgetail, C-130 and KC-46. Given Tinker's maintenance history I doubt the base would be shuttered, but the number of squadrons based here may shrink.

Are the E-3s more of a pain to maintain than the b-52's and B-1's? Those dinosaurs have been around for a long time.

I don't think people have to worry about Tinker, even if the base didn't get E-7 something will come to Tinker, especially with the new military spending surge that will probably come after this new cold war with Russia.

I’m not an expert on maintenance, but those platforms have two big things in their favor: significant aircraft at the Boneyard for parts and (for the B-1, at least) much newer avionics suites. The E-3 is just old. Nothing quite works right.

I’m not an expert on maintenance, but those platforms have two big things in their favor: significant aircraft at the Boneyard for parts and (for the B-1, at least) much newer avionics suites. The E-3 is just old. Nothing quite works right.

E3 dragon mod (glass cockpit) is on going currently ..

E3 dragon mod (glass cockpit) is on going currently ..

I'm sure that will help a lot. All of their stuff is straight out of the 1960s and 1970s. Being such a small fleet made supply sustainability that much harder.

I'm sure that will help a lot. All of their stuff is straight out of the 1960s and 1970s. Being such a small fleet made supply sustainability that much harder.

some of it is some of it is not ... there have been several block upgrades in the last 30 years ...

really the sustainability issue is much larger at the Pacaf sites (they only have 2 tails each) then it is at tinker or even in the AOR

what should have happened is that the USAF should have bought the E767 (an E3 on a 767 airframe /what the JSDF (Japan self defense force ) bought) in the late 90's to replace the fleet instead of doing the mods that happend back then ..

wedgetail is coming and is likely coming soon .. but there is no reason to retire any E-3's until they are replaced by wedgetail

Kind of wonder if our space-based capabilities are a lot better than the defense department lets on. You would think there would be some more urgency in finding a replacement?

Kind of wonder if our space-based capabilities are a lot better than the defense department lets on. You would think there would be some more urgency in finding a replacement?

they have already found the "replacement" it will be the E-7 wedgetail already in use with the Australian Air force and coming to the RAF (royal air force ) soon

Kind of wonder if our space-based capabilities are a lot better than the defense department lets on. You would think there would be some more urgency in finding a replacement?

the answer to that is yes and no... yes, our space-based capabilities are far better than the common person knows when it comes to this function, but cost and ability to adjust flight plans quickly to cover a new area or recover and area is where there is still a need. but our UAV program has caught up a lot in that category now. So is the need as great? no, but is there still a need for this type a aircraft? yes, just not as much as there was say even 10 years ago. It still fills a specific role, but the scope of that role has been shrinking.

More info on the E-6 TACAMO replacement from the navy. As the article says, the new C-130 platform will only do the submarine leg of the mission and not the other, broader mission of networking all parts of America's nuclear triad. In other words, these new planes will supplement rather than replace the E-6, which means hopefully the squadron here at Tinker will remain active.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/45086/this-is-our-first-look-at-the-navys-next-doomsday-plane


In one significant change from the E-6B that it’s replacing, the EC-130J TACAMO will, to begin with, at least, be designed for the TACAMO mission only. Currently, the Mercury fulfills both TACAMO duties for the Navy’s ballistic missile submarines, and the U.S. Air Force’s Airborne Command Post (ABNCP) mission, which involves maintaining communications with intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) and bomber units. Before the E-6B consolidated the two roles, the ballistic missile support mission was executed by the EC-135 Looking Glass.

With the EC-130J TACAMO initially only being responsible for TACAMO, the implication here is that the new aircraft will be supplemental to the existing E-6B fleet, at least for some amount of time.

Full retirement of the E-6Bs would then require a substitute for the ABNCP mission, perhaps through further adapting the EC-130Js or fielding a new platform altogether. The latter might even signal that the ABNCP mission is handed over from the Navy to the Air Force.

The project to close Douglas and expand the base is moving forward as a relocation for the public water lines will soon be getting underway with a $35 million funding grant:


$35 million for waterline relocation at Tinker Air Force Base

Officials say a 60-inch waterline that serves approximately 400,000 residents and currently runs parallel to Douglas Boulevard from Lake Stanley Draper must be relocated due to the pending closure of a two-mile section of Douglas as part of Tinker’s expansion to the east. The waterline relocation will start at S.E. 74th St. and wind its way north to S.E. 44th St. Once completed, the waterline will be entirely outside of Tinker’s secured area.


- https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/policy/state-lawmakers-approve-63-million-in-arpa-prep-funds-for-chamber-supported-okc-projects/?back=super_blog

This sooooo sucks.

This sooooo sucks.
Why?

Why?
It’d be nice if they could build a road tunnel but I know the traffic counts likely don’t warrant it. Still tunnels are cool.

It’d be nice if they could build a road tunnel but I know the traffic counts likely don’t warrant it. Still tunnels are cool.

it would also be a very expensive tunnel as it would need to support aircraft ..

it would also be a very expensive tunnel as it would need to support aircraft ..
Right which is why it won’t happen anytime soon. It would probably need to be built to somehow provide security for the base as well making it even more expensive. Are there any examples of road tunnels under US military bases?

I know such tunnels exists under civilian airports but not military.

Right which is why it won’t happen anytime soon. It would probably need to be built to somehow provide security for the base as well making it even more expensive. Are there any examples of road tunnels under US military bases?

I know such tunnels exists under civilian airports but not military.

And won't ever happen, at least here. The tunnel would need to be nearly 2 miles long. Far too much of a risk to security to have a tunnel that long, or any tunnel, go under a military taxiway.

Right which is why it won’t happen anytime soon. It would probably need to be built to somehow provide security for the base as well making it even more expensive. Are there any examples of road tunnels under US military bases?

I know such tunnels exists under civilian airports but not military.

My good sir, allow me to point you in the direction of VIRGINIA, where they build nothing but tunnels and the highest building they have in the state is 508 ft tall. They do NOT build bridges with a tower clearance higher than 400 feet due to the sheer amount of air traffic that goes on around the state. And we're talking about combat jets and helicopters making routine flyovers rivaling that of the tornado siren system test every Saturday at noon. They prioritize military above all else because of it's location to the nation's capital.

But there are some places where they tunnel INTO the bases there, and that's mainly because there's a runway above it. My dad worked on some of the bases there during his time in the navy, and he currently has clearance to work on some of the bases because of his engineering skills. That said, I've been to a number of those bases when I was 14. The one that stands out is none other than the passage of I-564, specifically going under the runway of Chambers Field NS of Norfolk. Each side of that stretch of interstate is lined in barbed wire fencing, and it sinks into the ground underneath a runway, comes back up, drops you off at the base checkpoint a little further up north. Here's a few examples of it here.

17688
17689
17690
17691

So yeah, they do have them, but they aren't exactly award-winning designs.

^^^ thanks for that example. Haven’t made it up to the NE yet. I do know Virginia is no stranger to tunnels and glad to hear they can do it. Maybe one day they can tunnel Douglas if it ever needs it.

Why?

Because anyone going from 240 to MWC, uses this heavily. Remember the next currently available exits are at Anderson or Air Depot. I dont think it's illogical to not force through traffic to always go 2 extra miles out of the way to wrap around Tinker. If the state at least creates an Post Rd ramp structure on 240. it would help some.

The traffic volumes for Douglas are actually MOSTLY through traffic. All you have to do is sit and watch how many people drive right by the traffic waiting to get it in the one gate to see how overwhelmingly, through traffic uses this road.

Tinker isn't really busting at the seems either, so I question the need for this anyway. Being able to cross Douglas from one gate to another could be accomplished with a traffic bridge across Douglas. Turn Douglas into an at-grade tunnel with a wall. There are a lot of ways to do this that are far less disruptive. Its one of the few times i have disagreed with the mayor's plans.

Let me also say that if security is the concern, well it's not a real one. All you have between you and Tinker up and down the border, is a simple wire fence. In some higher traffic areas they added temporary concrete traffic barriers back in 2001 (at what point do you call them permanent). If someone was looking to do something nefarious, there are penetration points ALLL OVER the place.

Because anyone going from 240 to MWC, uses this heavily. Remember the next currently available exits are at Anderson or Air Depot. I dont think it's illogical to not force through traffic to always go 2 extra miles out of the way to wrap around Tinker. If the state at least creates an Post Rd ramp structure on 240. it would help some.

The traffic volumes for Douglas are actually MOSTLY through traffic. All you have to do is sit and watch how many people drive right by the traffic waiting to get it in the one gate to see how overwhelmingly, through traffic uses this road.

Tinker isn't really busting at the seems either, so I question the need for this anyway. Being able to cross Douglas from one gate to another could be accomplished with a traffic bridge across Douglas. Turn Douglas into an at-grade tunnel with a wall. There are a lot of ways to do this that are far less disruptive. Its one of the few times i have disagreed with the mayor's plans.

Let me also say that if security is the concern, well it's not a real one. All you have between you and Tinker up and down the border, is a simple wire fence. In some higher traffic areas they added temporary concrete traffic barriers back in 2001 (at what point do you call them permanent). If someone was looking to do something nefarious, there are penetration points ALLL OVER the place.

aircraft cross douglas ....

aircraft cross douglas ....

I would imagine it’s a less than daily occurrence. It’s not a primary taxiway to a runway. I know you know this, but just trying to add some clarity.

A bridge would be a better solution, in my opinion. I think losing thru Douglass will be a major mistake for the surrounding community.

I would imagine it’s a less than daily occurrence. It’s not a primary taxiway to a runway. I know you know this, but just trying to add some clarity.

A bridge would be a better solution, in my opinion. I think losing thru Douglass will be a major mistake for the surrounding community.

one of the reasons for the closing of Douglas is the continued expansion of the base and the aircraft depot areas .... in the future aircraft will cross (what was douglas) much more often

I would imagine it’s a less than daily occurrence. It’s not a primary taxiway to a runway. I know you know this, but just trying to add some clarity.

A bridge would be a better solution, in my opinion. I think losing thru Douglass will be a major mistake for the surrounding community.

That's what im saying. They used to stop traffic at 2am to allow planes to cross from Tinker to the BOEING owned MROTC. I think they also do that during the day now. Note that the MRTOC never fully developed to the 17 or so hangers they were supposed to construct either. They have started doing some daytime moves, but putting in a real bridge would make this a much better situation and prevents the need to cut off Douglas.

It's sort of pandering to Tinker of something they dont really need. They have disconnected and UNRELATED portions of activity east of Douglas. The fuels area is one, down the road is the Boeing MRTOC. The national guard and flight standards next to that. But even those dont share guard houses, or and infrastructure. Not to mention that on TInker itself, everyone builds their own little single purposes structures that dont server an overall need. So you have a LOT of buildings taking up room in an very inefficient way.

Tinker would be far better served, dozing a lot of this, putting in new office space and a garage. It would free up quite a bit of land for other purposes.

And if they want Tinker East, go for it. Make an actual base on that side, connect it up to the communications wing (even though that's south of 59th. You can still maintain a transportation tunnel in Douglas between the two halves. And again, dont try to sell me on security. That's a farce.