Tinker Bond Issue 2008
Vote May 13, 2008

“The Board of County Commissioners of Oklahoma County has set a bond election on May 13, 2008, to ask the registered voters of Oklahoma County to vote regarding whether to approve bond issues which will allow the County of Oklahoma County, through the Board of County Commissioners, to do the following: Proposition I—issue bonds in the amount of 55 Million Dollars to purchase the GM facility and allow Tinker Air Force Base to lease the facility from the county with potential of transferring the property to the Air Force at some future time. Proposition II—issue bonds in the amount of 10.5 Million Dollars to provide necessary funds to renovate the plumbing, air conditioning, heating and other structural necessities in the Oklahoma County Courthouse. Proposition III—issue bonds in the amount of 5.75 Million Dollars to provide necessary storage space to retain and protect official records and documents which must be kept secure and protected in a facility large enough to kept current records and improve file access to such records. Proposition IV—issue bonds in the amount of 7.250 Million Dollars for the construction of a new facility for the Oklahoma County OSU Cooperative Extension Service in order to provide sufficient space for the numerous county programs offered through 4-H, Master Gardeners, Nutrition education, and other home, family and community education programs. Proposition V—issue bonds in the amount of 6 Million Dollars to alleviate flooding problems in the Northwestern and Central areas of Oklahoma County, which would also provide for flood control, wildfire prevention and other disaster relief projects throughout the County, with the ability to have the funds of this bond issue matched with federal monies to be applied to provide natural hazard and disaster mitigation, roads, bridges and drainage facilities in these specified areas in Oklahoma County.”

1. Tinker Air Force Base ($55M)
2. County Courthouse Renovation ($10.5M)
3. County Record Retention ($5.75M)
4. County Cooperative Extension Service ($7.25M)
5. Natural Hazard Mitigation and Flood Relief ($6M)

To make things easier, here is what I found on MarkShannon.com Home Page (http://www.markshannon.com). It is up to you how you vote.


Tinker Head Says "NO" Again!!!!

Retired Lt. Gen. Richard Burpee "You're asking taxpayers to increase their taxes for 15 years to support something that is not required," Burpee said. (Newsok.com)

What else does a reasonable person have to hear than the words of the former Tinker base commander who led the facility successfully through the BRAC CLOSINGS?!

VOTE NO on Tuesday against the increases in your property taxes to do things that are not needed, and if you've read the ballot, MIGHT NEVER get done even if they get the money.

The ballot states that the money DOES NOT HAVE TO BE USED FOR PURCHASING GM. It can be used anyway they want to use it.

Where are the 16 mayors of Oklahoma County? If they really thought Tinker's future depended on it they would all be supporting, AND YET ALL BUT ONE REMAIN SILENT.

Mid-Del schools lose needed school taxes which will be lost if GM goes to TINKER. There's another tax increase that will be coming if you don't vote NO on Tuesday.

What this is about is a FAILED OKC CHAMBER OF COMMERCE who has done nothing to help economic development as far as bringing jobs to this city, and their failed leadership.

The same CHAMBER that is trying to make it easy for illegal aliens to stay in Oklahoma, driving down salaries and costing taxpayers millions to pay for their free medical care, including PRE-NATAL CARE for their children.

IF VOTERS WERE PAYING ATTENTION they would be MAD AS HELL and vote NO tomorrow and put an end to this tax grab.

Although I am an outsider and have no stake at all in this, I don't see how the County buying the GM building can be a good deal for Oklahoma City. If the Air Force needs it then they can lease it from GM. Why does Oklahoma County have to be involved at all? I suspect it is because the County plans to negotiate a lease way below market value or Tinker doesn't want the space at all and the money will be used else ware. If GM wants to get rid of the plant that bad then they should sell it to someone that can actually use it for its designed purpose, car manufacturing.

Why can't the Air Force just lease it from GM directly? Why does Oklahoma County need to be involved at all?

Why can't the Air Force just lease it from GM directly? Why does Oklahoma County need to be involved at all?

Probably because someone or a group of people will make a ton of money off this deal. In the past this has happened a lot in OKC. Seems like all of the tax payers are funding a few peoples money machines...

They best example is the Gaylord's buying up a bunch of land in northing OKC...and the next thing you know there is a plan to build a new turnpike in north OKC...

and guess what...it was going to be built over Gaylord's land!...

Wow what great luck!

icemncmth, who do you propose is making money off this Tinker deal? It's owned by GM so GM is the winner here, especially since we help fund improvements to their property when they were here.

dupe thread

In case anyone is wondering how much this will raise property taxes you can go to the following chart. It gives examples for each proposition as well as total.

T.A.C. 2008 - Tinker Aerospace Complex (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/tacvote/bondcost.asp)

Basically for the ones saying they are voting NO to Tinker and YES to the other issues, it will raise property taxes about $5 for every $100,000 your house is worth.

The same CHAMBER that is trying to make it easy for illegal aliens to stay in Oklahoma, driving down salaries and costing taxpayers millions to pay for their free medical care, including PRE-NATAL CARE for their children.

IF VOTERS WERE PAYING ATTENTION they would be MAD AS HELL and vote NO tomorrow and put an end to this tax grab.

wow. it takes talent to turn a bond issue for the air force and into a racial issue. bravo mr. shannon, bravo.

not talent ... one track mind maybe, but not talent.

wow. it takes talent to turn a bond issue for the air force and into a racial issue. bravo mr. shannon, bravo.

I don't see anything racist in his statement. Illegal immigrants don't necessarily have to be of a certain ethnicity or race. The problem with illegal immigration is the whole 'illegal' thing; I think that's the problem most Americans have with illegal immigrants.

Then again, it's the 'in-thing' to turn every issue into a racial subject.

Hum. So the ads say if the measure passes it WILL save Tinker from BRAC. It WILL create thousands of jobs. It WILL WILL WILL. Does this mean when those things don't happen, Oklahoma County residents can use to get their money back for being falsely informed? :-P

I am afraid of BRAC nailing Tinker and OKC getting caught holding the bag on the GM thing.

Once again though...we have to pay for the facility, which may create the jobs, which will be paid for by us, as they are government jobs....I don't really see how we benefit here.

Andrew Rice is doing robocalls...LOL!!!

GM bailed on us, I do not see any reason why we should help GM.

I voted NO because I am tired of the Government taking my money. A basketball team, bail out GM under the guise of helping
Tinker. I can only imagine what is next? A tax to provide stretch limos for every state, county and city official. A fast food tax to help the schools throw more money away on indoor practice facilities and mall style food courts for schools.

Even if this were a good idea...I don't think its a good time to bring it up...who wants to vote a tax raise now?

Andrew Rice!

Perhaps you should have found the thread with the SAME subject matter and commented on it instead of making a duplicated thread.

// On another subject, you all need to read the OK Gazettes article on this. It tells why the AF can't go in a buy it, and then you have the base nazi from the late 80's talking about how it's not good for tinker. It's the same guy who doesn't want the shoppes in Del City to go through either.

...at it again, I see.

ditto.

1. Tinker Air Force Base ($55M)

Dang thats a generic description for the funds usage...

Dang thats a generic description for the funds usage...

The text of the question actually describes the purpose of the monies as "...including, but not limited to, the...." purchase of the GM plant. It goes on to create an even larger loophole, essentially providing an out for anything under the heading of "economic development." I think that's a catchy way of saying "boondoggle."

Before I get accused of some sort of undue bias, let me state up front I have no personal dog in the fight - I'm not an Oklahoma County resident, but I am an OKC resident. My opinion is that this is one of the most specious and questionable uses of county authority to come along in a long, long time.

To me, it just smells funny. We have county commissioners urging OK county property owners to pony up the funds to buy a building for a base that doesn't want it, being sold under the guise of "saving" Tinker when its former commander says its not necessary, to cement the illusion that some theoretical jobs are coming Tinker's way if it is passed - but not one concrete piece of information guarantees any of it. And all this in light of the fact that underutilization of a military base was one of the important indicia used to identify candidates for closure during the last BRAC round. Bottom line? None of it makes any sense.

Who benefits from this? I have no idea. GM, presumably, benefits by unloading a worthless plant and the attendant tax burden, and presumably whatever real estate broker(s) and attorney(s) might handle the sale...beyond that, who knows?

It just smellls funny to me. Were I an OK county resident, I'd be voting a big, bold no.

If this fails, will Oklahoma county residents get criticized for okaying the tax incentive package for an NBA team but not "helping" their largest employer? Anxiously awaiting the verdict.

It didn't fail, its approx 20k-18k with like 95% reporting. Humphries is doing cartwheels right now....

To me, it just smells funny. We have county commissioners urging OK county property owners to pony up the funds to buy a building for a base that doesn't want it, being sold under the guise of "saving" Tinker when its former commander says its not necessary,
It just smellls funny to me. Were I an OK county resident, I'd be voting a big, bold no.

To correct some misinformation.
The Senior base commanders Col. Correll was and is in favor of this acquisition. The Two star General on the base , General Reno, wants this deal. the One star General on this base, General Robinson, wants this deal. the Secretary of the Air Force, wants this. Actually numerous area Mayors and cities have came out for this deal.

Now Why would a current serving TWO STAR GENERAL who certainly has more information on the status of Tinker be for a purchase like this and a two star general retired over twenty years be butting heads so publicly?????

Im sorry but I think I will go with the active duty officer at the base......

And lets not forget this self same retired general was dismissed from the Oklahoma CIty chamber of commerce for supporting positions the Chamber did not support.
:tiphat:

Redskin knows what i'm talking about.

To pretend that Burpee is some idiot without any knowledge of the process behind base closure decisions is astonishingly naive. He may have been retired for several years, but I think he's already been through one round of BRAC review as Tinker's commander, which none of the other individuals can claim.

There's not one shred of guarantee from anyone on the government side about so much as one penny's worth of additional work en route to Tinker solely because of this acquisition, and that doesn't even add in the fact that some programs are slowing/ending in the coming years at Tinker.

Once again, this "great" idea for the future of Tinker is a bad idea in light of the fact that it will actually be more likely to create the appearance that Tinker is underutilized, which is like padding your deductions and daring the IRS not to audit you.

As I said, I'm not a resident of Oklahoma County, so I have no dog in this fight, and the questionable motives of the corresponding commissioners will be something paid for by the voters of that county for some time to come. I just hope it doesn't end up costing a bunch of jobs in the future.

It didn't fail, its approx 20k-18k with like 95% reporting. Humphries is doing cartwheels right now....

Speaking of Humphries, looks like he was nominated as temporary chair of the OKC School Board, he also announced he would be running for the permanent seat when it goes to vote.

add SoonerDave to that list of "knows what i'm talking about".

It's very interesting to look at what passed and what didn't. I realize data and record retention is not very sexy but I'm kind of surprised about the OSU extension building.

Does anyone close to the situation have any insight?


Tinker bond proposal will likely pass
John Estus
Staff Writer
Oklahoma County voters appear to have narrowly approved the latest Tinker Air Force Base bond issue proposal today.
With 296 of 297 precincts reporting, approval of the plan to buy the abandoned General Motors plant and lease it to Tinker is carrying about 53 percent of the vote, according to the Oklahoma County Election Board.

“We’re going to take a facility that was dead and we’re going to breathe some life back into it,” Vaughn said. “It’s going to benefit the greatest employer we’ve got in Oklahoma County.”

Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Richard Burpee,Ö a former Tinker commander who opposed the plan, said he accepted the choice of the people.

“The voters have voted their conscience, and they voted for the tax increase and that’s what we’re going to do,” Burpee said.

Passage of the Tinker proposition will cost the owner of a $100,000 home an extra $9.85 a year in property taxes.

Two of the other four countywide propositions also appeared on their ways to passing.

County flood control improvements and renovations to the county courthouse were approved by voters.

Propositions to improve county records management and build a new county extension building appeared destined to fail. Both had been shot down by about 55 percent of voters.

As of 8:05 p.m., the election board reports:

Countywide:

Proposition 1 — $55 million bond issue to acquire vacant General Motors facility, to be leased to Tinker Air Force Base. Yes, 7,552 (52.7%); No, 6,781 (47.3%).

Proposition 2 — $10.5 million bond issue for courthouse improvements, including replacing utility systems. Yes, 7,746 (53.8%); No, 6,643 (46.2%).

Proposition 3 — $5.75 million bond issue for additional storage and management system for county records. Yes, 6,905 (47.1%); No, 7,755 (52.9%).

Proposition 4 — $7.25 million bond issue for new Oklahoma County OSU Cooperative Extension Service building. Yes, 7,023 (47.4%); No, 7,784 (52.6%).

Proposition 5 — $6 million bond issue for flood control and countywide flood relief plan. Yes, 8,634 (58.5%); No, 6,138 (41.5%).

Shall we start taking bets on when the next "save tinker" bond election will be?

Let's go for it, how about acquiring all land east of Douglas Blvd. Wouldn't be the second time my family had to be moved, dead or alive, because of Tinker.

Do you think this vote will have any effect when ther city brings maps3 to the people? i keep thinkinf people are really going to get tired of the government raising taxes. i personally think maps3 will take OKC to a new dimension and would support it 100%, but at some point, people are going to say we had enough, and will vote it down.

sgt. pepper, I don't think this will effect the timing of MAPS 3. Mayor Cornett made it somewhat clear we were looking at 2010 before announcing MAPS 3. I predict it would go to a vote in late 2010.

No one is saying Burpee is an idiot but who are you going to belive a retired general who is at odds with the Chamber (apparently) or everybody else currently on base.

Tinker can't come out and promise jobs (for political reasons). In fact, Tinker since they are a government can't come out and say a whole lot.

This is a potential strategic blunder. They never said exactly what "jobs" would be created, and Gen. Burpee knows his stuff about the base and the Air Force, and he opposed it, saying it could actually hurt our case if there's another round of BRAC.

What a waste of resources.

When is the city and county going to get after a plan to provide decent public transit? Stupid votes like these potentially jeopardize future Yes votes for much-needed improvements.

OK, so we bought a building that has no tenant. Wonderful. Then, we potentially endanger future public support on other, more concretely beneficial initiatives. Is Ray Vaughan really dumb or what?

No one is saying Burpee is an idiot but who are you going to belive a retired general who is at odds with the Chamber (apparently) or everybody else currently on base.

Tinker can't come out and promise jobs (for political reasons). In fact, Tinker since they are a government can't come out and say a whole lot.

Then you cannot count anything said by the other Tinker officials as saying "they want this deal," because that's an endorsement. Can't have it both ways.

Burpee led Tinker through a prior round of BRAC, and Tinker is still open. I've been left entirely unimpressed with the C of C, so Burpee's apparent opposition thereto is to his credit.

Its a boondoggle, the commissioners got what they wanted, so its a done deal that's been sacked to OK county taxpayers. Done is done. Time to move on to the next ripoff.

The text of the question actually describes the purpose of the monies as "...including, but not limited to, the...." purchase of the GM plant. It goes on to create an even larger loophole, essentially providing an out for anything under the heading of "economic development." I think that's a catchy way of saying "boondoggle."

Before I get accused of some sort of undue bias, let me state up front I have no personal dog in the fight - I'm not an Oklahoma County resident, but I am an OKC resident. My opinion is that this is one of the most specious and questionable uses of county authority to come along in a long, long time.

To me, it just smells funny. We have county commissioners urging OK county property owners to pony up the funds to buy a building for a base that doesn't want it, being sold under the guise of "saving" Tinker when its former commander says its not necessary, to cement the illusion that some theoretical jobs are coming Tinker's way if it is passed - but not one concrete piece of information guarantees any of it. And all this in light of the fact that underutilization of a military base was one of the important indicia used to identify candidates for closure during the last BRAC round. Bottom line? None of it makes any sense.

Who benefits from this? I have no idea. GM, presumably, benefits by unloading a worthless plant and the attendant tax burden, and presumably whatever real estate broker(s) and attorney(s) might handle the sale...beyond that, who knows?

It just smellls funny to me. Were I an OK county resident, I'd be voting a big, bold no.

I agree. And I voted no. *sigh

Is Ray Vaughan really dumb or what?


Ray Vaughn is not dumb, which is why I don't understand this...I suppose I could have tried asking him, but he didn't seem to have very clear answers for the media either.

For all the naysayers, how do you see this land being used if it not by the base? No one is going to buy it and tear down the existing set of structures so you have to assume that a large manufacturer would move to this location or expand to this location. Otherwise, it is Oklahoma County chasing the MG plant and similar. If you look at the Lucent complex, it sold for a pittance and is being used for an operation that is system intensive but job poor, relatively speaking. You won't get a huge infusion of money into the economy from payroll or taxes in that deal.

For all the naysayers, how do you see this land being used if it not by the base?

Is it a requirement that all land be purchased and used for economic development? If thats the case, theres a lot of empty pasture in OK county that the taxpayers need to buy up.

Last I checked, this thread was about Tinker and bond election to purchase the former GM plant. I didn't realize it included every cow pasture in the county. I knew I should have read the fine print.

It seems to me that if you want to chain yourself to the construction fence around a nuclear power plant to stop it from being built, you should have the forethought to consider an alternative solution because after all, they weren't building the nuclear power plant to provide you with a place to attach your chain, they were trying to generate power. There are myriad ways to generate power just as there are myriad ways to address the on-topic issue of a large, dormant manufacturing plant that is otherwise facing a glacial decline into compost.

Re: the utlization (capacity) issue. . .I'm certain thcurrent ALC Commander is well aware of the methodology used by the AF to compute utlization/capacity under the BRAC rules. . .and I'm equally as sure that if it had the potential of putting the ALC at risk of closure, this whole issue would have never seen the light of day. In addition, Robert Conner, retired Executive Director (preceded Gen Reno in his position as ALC Commander) was FOR the issue (editorial in the Daily Oklahoman). . .and he has been through more than one BRAC. . .and at other locations other than Tinker. Bottom line. . .you never know what tomorrow will bring, but you'd better not bury your head in the sand when it comes to growth and expansion for the future.

Ok... but isn't GM still paying property tax, even if it just sits there?

Re: the utlization (capacity) issue. . .I'm certain thcurrent ALC Commander is well aware of the methodology used by the AF to compute utlization/capacity under the BRAC rules. . . Bottom line. . .you never know what tomorrow will bring, but you'd better not bury your head in the sand when it comes to growth and expansion for the future.

So, of course, you chose to follow the lead of those esteemed county commissioners, eh?

Ah, yes, someone else who drank the Vaughn kool-aid...

That's the whole point of this issue - there's not one shred of proof that so much as one day of additional longevity or one penny's worth of additional employment will come as a result of this boondoggle. Further, we have absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that the funding generated by the increased property taxes will even be used to purchase the GM plant should those benevolent county commissioners discover some other "urgent" project under the heading of "economic development" that needs the funding worse.

Did anyone hear that those same Tinker leaders said it would take "considerable" monies to revamp the plant into something usable, whatever that might be? There's a stairstep implicit here - first, you have to identify the work; then you have to decide if the plant is adequate for it, then you have to assess the cost of retooling it, then you solicit funding for it. That's a loooong way from the "thousands of jobs" the "friends" of Tinker promised.

What is certain is that the poor property-owning saps in Oklahoma County will be zapped with a tax bill to finance this scheme, and they'll never know just whom is truly profiting. If we had a truly investigative news source in Oklahoma, we might find out who the winner in this Ponzi scheme -- the promise of vapor jobs for "just a few pennies" of your hard-earned tax dollars - really is.

And color me skeptical, but I have a sneaking suspicion it isn't gonna be the taxpayers.

Wonder how long before we find Gene Stipe hooked into it somehow :sarcasm

this is sincerely not meant as a cheap shot, but, the best analogy I can come up with is . . .sorry. . . don't have the time, energy, or inclination to explain try and calculus to those haven't yet mastered 3rd grade math. And it doesn't have anything to do with the County Commissioners. . . .it's the business end of the largest single site employer in the State of Oklahoma. Whether you care if it is "government" or not, it's a fact. Further, I'm not into Kool-Ade. . .I'd much prefer Caymus. . .

I'm normally pretty trusting of leaders until they prove otherwise so I see nothing sinister in this plot to defraud the taxpayers of OKC

With a grand total of 3 or 4 major employers in the metro I am all for enhancing the prospects of the largest as long as it's not outrageous...Tinker gets shut down or severely downsized we are all hurting big time

Did anyone hear that those same Tinker leaders said it would take "considerable" monies to revamp the plant into something usable, whatever that might be? There's a stairstep implicit here - first, you have to identify the work; then you have to decide if the plant is adequate for it, then you have to assess the cost of retooling it, then you solicit funding for it. That's a loooong way from the "thousands of jobs" the "friends" of Tinker promised.

:sarcasm
Yes and those same Tinker officials have publicly committed $100million towards the necessary up grades to the plant in Federal money.

Further there are numerous old buildings currently on Tinker that will be shut down and torn down and the work moved to the facility.

Third, I believe I mentioned this had the endorsement of the Secretary of the Air Force. I DONT believe the Generals and commanders of TINKER would have came out for this without the approval from on high.

Further the Air Force is working towards private sector tenents for the unused portion of the building.

Further General Reno has also went through BRAC closures. And he has publicaly stated the He is NOT worried about another BRac Attack.

Further I would rather believe a current active two star general rather than a retired general that has been removed from several different positions because of his mouth.

Further there were numerous public breifings given which included Tinker officials who supported this acquistion.

Further Bob Conners a retired SES'er from tinker who was the former ALC commander
Robert J. Conner, a member of the Senior Executive Service, is Director, Oklahoma City Air Logistics Center, Tinker Air Force Base, Okla. He is responsible for the 72nd Air Base Wing, as well as the center's Combat Sustainment, Aircraft Sustainment and Maintenance wings.

Further, who ya gonna believe..................I chose who I would believe based on the information presented and based on personal knowledge of the truthful nature of the person involved.

Further when the move occurs and the jobs are relocated I will be sure to re-resurect this thread to show you .....you were wrong............maybe.
Time and only time will tell..........:tiphat:

Wow, what a grudge.

Redskin 70: Plaudits!!

To correct some misinformation.
The Senior base commanders Col. Correll was and is in favor of this acquisition. The Two star General on the base , General Reno, wants this deal. the One star General on this base, General Robinson, wants this deal. the Secretary of the Air Force, wants this. Actually numerous area Mayors and cities have came out for this deal.

Now Why would a current serving TWO STAR GENERAL who certainly has more information on the status of Tinker be for a purchase like this and a two star general retired over twenty years be butting heads so publicly?????

Im sorry but I think I will go with the active duty officer at the base......

And lets not forget this self same retired general was dismissed from the Oklahoma CIty chamber of commerce for supporting positions the Chamber did not support.
:tiphat:Sounds and looks to me that he was dismissed for NOT supporting a position on an issue that the Chamber DID support.

Ok... but isn't GM still paying property tax, even if it just sits there?Yes. But that will soon be a thing of the past.

So, of course, you chose to follow the lead of those esteemed county commissioners, eh?

Ah, yes, someone else who drank the Vaughn kool-aid...

That's the whole point of this issue - there's not one shred of proof that so much as one day of additional longevity or one penny's worth of additional employment will come as a result of this boondoggle. Further, we have absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that the funding generated by the increased property taxes will even be used to purchase the GM plant should those benevolent county commissioners discover some other "urgent" project under the heading of "economic development" that needs the funding worse.

Did anyone hear that those same Tinker leaders said it would take "considerable" monies to revamp the plant into something usable, whatever that might be? There's a stairstep implicit here - first, you have to identify the work; then you have to decide if the plant is adequate for it, then you have to assess the cost of retooling it, then you solicit funding for it. That's a loooong way from the "thousands of jobs" the "friends" of Tinker promised.

What is certain is that the poor property-owning saps in Oklahoma County will be zapped with a tax bill to finance this scheme, and they'll never know just whom is truly profiting. If we had a truly investigative news source in Oklahoma, we might find out who the winner in this Ponzi scheme -- the promise of vapor jobs for "just a few pennies" of your hard-earned tax dollars - really is.

And color me skeptical, but I have a sneaking suspicion it isn't gonna be the taxpayers.

Wonder how long before we find Gene Stipe hooked into it somehow :sarcasmYep, this is one scam they can't blame on "ole" Gene. He's not the Vice-Chair of the Chambers Aviation and Aerospace Committee.

Ok... but isn't GM still paying property tax, even if it just sits there?


I guess not as of September! So we just did the federal govt a favor AND GM one also (Hey thanks for leaving, GM, let us take this burden off of you now!)

Follow the money, asks who benefits. 2000 more voters decided a property tax increase was good for all home owners in the city.

I bet that 2000 don't even own their own homes...

Follow the money, asks who benefits. 2000 more voters decided a property tax increase was good for all home owners in the city.

Yeah its not really worth beating a dead horse...its done...still not real happy about it..time to move on though.

... 2000 more voters decided a property tax increase was good for all home owners in the city.

Is that a real issue for you David? Would it have been better, or worse, from your perspective, if the outcome of the vote had been based on a majority of 200 or 20,000 rather than 2000?

Like the outcome or hate the outcome, the number who care enough to vote, in either direction, will always have more say than the multitudes who can't turn off the x-box, telly or set aside their freakin' spiderman paint by numbers sets for a mere 20 minutes.

.... freakin' spiderman paint by numbers sets...

:artist: Where can I get one?