Better idea, have a huge open house and invite people to see the Cox Convention Center, then show them virtual tours and pictures of other closely comparable convention centers to our new one. Then ask, "Now, do you think we need a new convention center?"

Better idea, have a huge open house at Cox and then shuttle them to Reed Center in Midwest City, which is a vastly better facility. IN MIDWEST CITY.

Better idea, have a huge open house and invite people to see the Cox Convention Center, then show them virtual tours and pictures of other closely comparable convention centers to our new one. Then ask, "Now, do you think we need a new convention center?"

I don't even think you'd have to show them other centers. As a whole the Cox Center is awful. I'm surprised Cox actually wants their name on it. The "updated" areas are so-so, but the spaces are nothing more than what you might find at your average extended stay hotel that has meeting space. That area is probably fine for seminars, but the larger exhibit space is really a piece of junk and the common areas around it show a lot of decay. If MAPS touched the interior of the south side of the convention center, there are no visible signs of it.

Honestly, the argument for a new convention center really doesn't have to be centered around exponential growth. I really don't see how we can keep the events we already have with the current state of the cox center. I'd probably be on board with a new center if for nothing else to stave off retraction. I've actually been to a handful of events there in the last year and, while I get a nostalgic kick out of going into the arena, there really is just an overall depressed feeling about the space. I hate to think that the Cox center is partly responsible for a lot of visitors' first impression of the city. I'd probably be in favor of leveling the Cox Center even if there were no plans to replace it. It's that bad.

Better idea, have a huge open house at Cox and then shuttle them to Reed Center in Midwest City, which is a vastly better facility. IN MIDWEST CITY.

Soooooooooooooo freaking true, and just a tad embarrassing OKC.

Better idea, have a huge open house at Cox and then shuttle them to Reed Center in Midwest City, which is a vastly better facility. IN MIDWEST CITY.

Problem solved. Let Midwest City have the business. It's part of the metro.

Problem solved. Let Midwest City have the business. It's part of the metro.

Yep and the largest meeting room is 20,000 square feet. I bet we will get a TON of conferences with that size of space...

Problem solved. Let Midwest City have the business. It's part of the metro.

Yes. Our merchants and hotels don't want any of that business. We don't want the sales tax proceeds! Let it go to Midwest City!!!! Great solution!!!!! Brilliant!!!! Great strategy!!!!!

Problem solved. Let Midwest City have the business. It's part of the metro.

Are you always bitter or just when you sit down at a keyboard? You'd find a way to make the double-rainbow guy hate life.

We benefit from Tinker. Let them build a convention center and subsidize a hotel. Or at least maximize the one they've got if it's so much better than ours. Heck, we probably should raze downtown and build everything over there by the base, so we wouldn't be so sprawled and all.

In all fairness.. MWC zip code autos to Oklahoma City, so most sales tax of MWC residents who buy online goods and are taxed is actually sent to OKC and not MWC.. so you benefit from MWC.

In all fairness.. MWC zip code autos to Oklahoma City, so most sales tax of MWC residents who buy online goods and are taxed is actually sent to OKC and not MWC.. so you benefit from MWC.

In all fairness, we raise revenue in OKC through sales taxes, so we don't benefit when people stay in Midwest City hotels, eat in Midwest City restaurants, and patronlze Midwest City retailers. This is clearly too complicated for mkjeeves to understand.

Just to clarify my statement, my sales tax comment is directed at online sales and not brick and mortar establishments.

A letter was sent out a few years ago to MWC residents asking them to report their use tax and sales tax for online sales, solely on a voluntary basis so that the city could be properly credited for those tax dollars being lost to OKC.

In all fairness, we raise revenue in OKC through sales taxes, so we don't benefit when people stay in Midwest City hotels, eat in Midwest City restaurants, and patronlze Midwest City retailers. This is clearly too complicated for mkjeeves to understand.

That depends on who "we" is, the downtown OKC elite, everyone in OKC limits, the government as an entity unto itself, or the Metro in total. But that's clearly too complicated for you to understand.

I've said before I support upgrading or replacing the Cox center with something that serves the community. I don't support building a new convention center with the plan to immediately expand it and subsidize a hotel in an effort to chase mythical convention business. Even less so when there are other facilities in the area that can handle some of the business and probably need some of the business to help support them too.

That depends on who "we" is, the downtown OKC elite, everyone in OKC limits, the government as an entity unto itself, or the Metro in total. But that's clearly too complicated for you to understand.I've said before I support upgrading or replacing the Cox center with something that serves the community. I don't support building a new convention center with the plan to immediately expand it and subsidize a hotel in an effort to chase mythical convention business. Even less so when there are other facilities in the area that can handle some of the business and probably need some of the business to help support them too.

Why do you have to be condescending and degrading ? Is it just your nature ?

You guys need to get along...lol

We benefit from Tinker. Let them build a convention center and subsidize a hotel. Or at least maximize the one they've got if it's so much better than ours. Heck, we probably should raze downtown and build everything over there by the base, so we wouldn't be so sprawled and all.

Do you know that Tinker is actually in OKC ?

Are you always bitter or just when you sit down at a keyboard? You'd find a way to make the double-rainbow guy hate life.


This is clearly too complicated for mkjeeves to understand.


Why do you have to be condescending and degrading ?

Ask sooner and brett, since you've decided it's your job to (selectively) police the forum. As always, you're more concerned with the source than the issue. Don't go changing.

Do you know that Tinker is actually in OKC ?

okay. My sentiment remains, if the citizens in Midwest City have a good convention center, good for them. We, as co-citizens of the Metro, should respect and support that, not undercut it by flooding the area with an overabundance of CC space and a subsidized hotel.

okay. My sentiment remains, if the citizens in Midwest City have a good convention center, good for them. We, as co-citizens of the Metro, should respect and support that, not undercut it by flooding the area with an overabundance of CC space and a subsidized hotel.

Total apples and oranges.

Just to throw a question out there: Are there any large American cities where the convention center is in a suburb?

We benefit from Tinker. Let them build a convention center and subsidize a hotel. Or at least maximize the one they've got if it's so much better than ours. Heck, we probably should raze downtown and build everything over there by the base, so we wouldn't be so sprawled and all.

Wait what?

This got fun, obnoxious, and ridiculous all at once. I'm impressed!!!

Problem solved. Let Midwest City have the business. It's part of the metro.

Please move somewhere else...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

okay. My sentiment remains, if the citizens in Midwest City have a good convention center, good for them. We, as co-citizens of the Metro, should respect and support that, not undercut it by flooding the area with an overabundance of CC space and a subsidized hotel.

This is so stupid it doesn't warrant an answer. Like the tail is going to wag the dog.

A convention for 20k+ people is different than a seminar of 1k. BIG difference.

A convention for 20k+ people is different than a seminar of 1k. BIG difference.

So it was an absurd comparison to start with.

guys... please stop the personal attacks and stick to discussing the topic. -M

So it was an absurd comparison to start with.

Since it was MY comparison I will note that the juxtaposition was strictly focused on quality of venue, not size. It straight kicks the Cox Center's butt in that regard. So does the conference center attached to the JQH-built Embassy suites in Norman. As has been pointed out by many before me, you can't be a suburb of nothing. But you have indicated in previous posts that you are mostly OK with that, so whatever. Personally I would like OKC convention-goers to experience the BEST meeting space the metro has to offer, not the third or fourth-best.

For what it's worth - since people not in the industry usually aren't aware of the conferences and conventions we regularly host here and in fact sometimes assume we host few if any - this week Oklahoma City hosted the National Association of Sports Commissions (http://www.sportscommissions.org/About), with great success. The attendance was close to 900, and they circulated throughout the community spending lots of $$ while here. They had great exposure to OKC, and in fact today I was forwarded a glowing e-mail sent by a member to the CVB congratulating them on the success of the event and the efforts of the OKC CVB staff. This was the group's first visit to OKC, and while I am proud that the city performed so well it pains me a little bit to think that one of their main impressions was still the dated convention facility. This is the type of group that would NEVER book in Midwest City, and it's the type of business that we need to protect, preserve and attract more of, which requires a new and modern facility, plain and simple.

I saw attendees of that conference all over downtown, and then even at Belle Isle walmart (they were wearing their conference t-shirts).

So it was an absurd comparison to start with.

Exactly, it is absurd to think we should have the main convention center for the OKC metro area not in the OKC proper area. The mere idea of it is ridiculous at best. That is why the DT OKC area needs a new, better, larger convention center. I don't care about the convention center usage studies, I know we would get more business and most of it would go to benefit small businesses and hotels in that area. The Barons would probably move to the Fairgrounds arena (which needs an upgrade anyway) and it would be a better space for groups coming in to town.

Again, to clarify my post, it's not a personal attack, what I was getting at is that a DT CC doesn't interrupt the business of the REED center and vice versa.

I don't believe that anyone suggested it did..? I only saw mkjeeves' suggestion that he would be fine with all of OKC's convention business moving to another (any other?) city in the metro.

Or perhaps more accurately, he suggests that OKC shouldn't expand/improve its convention facilities because it might steal business away from Midwest City.

I don't support building a new convention center with the plan to immediately expand it and subsidize a hotel in an effort to chase mythical convention business.
When I was working at the Colcord and the Renaissance... I thrived on that continual stream of "mythical convention business". Even tho I supervise the valets at Saint Anthony now... I still get asked to help out at the Renaissance (where our company is based out of) when large conventions are in town, which is pretty often.

A study showed that Oklahoma City could support a convention center hotel with a capacity of 735-rooms. We should be pushing for 700-900 room range to allow for 10-20 years of future growth.

He are two cities which possess hotels which might fit into that category:

Kansas City:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Hyatt_Regency_Crown_Center_Kansas_City_MO.jpg
Sheraton Kansas City Hotel at Crown Center

Rooms: 733
Suites: 39
Height: 504 feet, 45 stories
Value: $150 million


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSepuAqpXTe-nk4DJuJcroUzBf5Oa4e5NYqXn7VvCmF68dV6OTK6Q
Jacksonville, FL Hyatt Regency Riverfront Hotel

Rooms: 963
Height: 19 stories
Value: $200 million


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Laramie, do you have any idea how much of each hotel was paid for by tax payers and what the builders paid?

The biggest issue you are going to come up with is the KC hotel was built for $150,000,000, that is true, but it was built in 1980. What would that translate to in 2018-2020 numbers?

Yeah, a 900 room hotel would be nice to see here to plan for future growth.

Laramie, do you have any idea how much of each hotel was paid for by tax payers and what the builders paid?

The biggest issue you are going to come up with is the KC hotel was built for $150,000,000, that is true, but it was built in 1980. What would that translate to in 2018-2020 numbers?

Doubt if any taxpayer funds were involved.

Figures probably represent the original cost. The Jacksonville Hyatt Riverfront went into foreclosure last year and was sold for $53 million; the debts on it were $195 million.

Hyatt in Downtown Jacksonville sold for $53 million - Jacksonville Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/02/12/hyatt-in-downtown-jacksonville-sold.html)

IMO: Oklahoma City will probably have to sweeten somebody pot to lure a major reputable hotel chain here to construct a project of that magnitude. Let's hope we can save that $30 million in the MAPS III contingency fund for a future investment; an investment that could jump start the convention center--our central location is going to be a plus.

These figure probably represent the original cost; you talking about $400-450 million range for the 733-room, 45 story Sheraton Kansas City Crown Center if built after 2014; the calculator link below was used. Inflation appears to climb at 1% a year.

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value from 1913-2014 (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/)



http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

From the gazette:

To build or not to build?

Oklahoma City faces multiple decisions on a proposed hotel that’s tied to a new downtown convention center.

BY BEN FELDER

EDITOR’S NOTE: This is part two of a two-part story about the proposed MAPS 3 convention center and related hotel. Find part one at okgazette.com.

Seven years after its grand opening, the Renaissance Grand, a nearly 1,000-room convention center hotel in St. Louis, closed one of its buildings as $98 million in bonds used to help construct the hotel went into foreclosure.

The hotel, which opened in 2002 and went through foreclosure proceedings in 2009, was recently sold to a group that plans to renovate it under a new financial package that will see the city of St. Louis take a reimbursement hit on loans it issued to help pay for the hotel development.

It’s a cautionary tale that opponents of a potential convention center hotel in Oklahoma City can point to as a reason the city would be foolish to help support a similar hotel as part of a planned $250 million convention center. But in the same way OKC’s future convention center is a different project than those in other cities (see last week’s Oklahoma Gazette for more), a new convention center hotel in Oklahoma City, if one is ever built, would also follow a different path than ones built in cities like St. Louis, Boston and Nashville, where original occupancy estimates have not been met.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it feasible?
A new convention center, which was approved by voters as a part of the 2009 Metropolitan Area Projects Plan 3 (MAPS 3), is coming to downtown. However, there are some who believe the success of the new convention center will depend on whether a large anchor hotel is also part of the project. The proposed hotel isn’t part of the MAPS 3 project, so city management is studying the best ways to attract possible investors.

“It will work without a hotel,” said Cathy O’Connor, president of The Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City. “But it won’t work as well as it’s able to. We will not be as competitive without [a convention center hotel].”

The Oklahoma City Council is waiting for another report on the feasibility of a publicly supported hotel. O’Connor said the report, which is due this summer, will outline the options available to the city to help fund a hotel that could have as many as 775 rooms.

The convention center will work without the hotel, but the hotel won’t work without public assistance, O’Connor said.

“Full-service hotels are hard to do without public help,” O’Connor said. “If you look around, we have a lot of hotels being built in Oklahoma City right now, but not a full-service hotel. The Embassy Suites is the closest, but it is getting some [public] help. It’s a tough environment for those big hotels.”

More than just rooms
The number of hotel rooms a city has is often viewed as a benchmark for attracting convention traffic. However, the total number of rooms is not always the most important factor, but rather how many of those rooms are within just a few hotels, convention center officials say.

For example, Nashville, which is rated as a top 15 convention destination by the event and survey firm Cvent, has a total of 20,373 hotel rooms. That is 18,000 fewer rooms than St. Louis, which does not have as strong a convention industry. However, the difference between the two cities is that Nashville has a few larger hotels that are desirable for conventions that wish to locate the majority of their guests under one roof.

Cash or credit?
Oklahoma City’s proposed convention center is the most expensive MAPS project to date, but at an estimated $250 million, its price tag is only a fraction of those recently built or proposed in other cities. Also, the convention center is being built with money generated through sales tax, which makes the project less of a financial risk.

Public assistance for a new convention center hotel could be achieved through a variety of methods, O’Connor said, including through tax increment financing, also known as TIF, or creating a nonprofit that owns the hotel.

“The hotel is going to be riskier [than the convention center] just from that perspective,” O’Connor said about the funding options the city will face. “How much riskier? I don’t know. I think there are things that you can do to mitigate that risk, and those are some of the things the city council will want to look at. You certainly structure these things so the financial risk is not bore by the city.”

O’Connor also adds that the city has a track record of conservative funding practices when paying for large projects.

“Just general financial management in Oklahoma City is much more conservative than you will see in some other places,” O’Connor added.

In the coming months, the city council will be presented with a detailed study on the funding options that exist for supporting a convention center hotel, and there will most likely be a vote on whether or not Oklahoma

I am not sure what happened at the end. It just cut off both online and in print. Just a gazette error, I guess.

Thanks for posting that. I have confidence that the city will make the right decision and do a great job with this.

Just to compare, Tulsa's convention center has two connected hotels, a 450 room DoubleTree and a new 180 room aLoft for a total of 630 rooms.

The Oklahoma City Council is waiting for another report on the feasibility of a publicly supported hotel. O’Connor said the report, which is due this summer, will outline the options available to the city to help fund a hotel that could have as many as 775 rooms.


Who is the consultant?

Just to compare, Tulsa's convention center has two connected hotels, a 450 room DoubleTree and a new 180 room aLoft for a total of 630 rooms.Double Tree is Hilton right?

Double Tree is Hilton right?

Hilton Brand...

Just to compare, Tulsa's convention center has two connected hotels, a 450 room DoubleTree and a new 180 room aLoft for a total of 630 rooms.

How are they doing in helping Tulsa land major national conventions? Looking at their convention calendar it doesn't appear that much.

Thanks for posting that. I have confidence that the city will make the right decision and do a great job with this.

Why do you believe that? Is their track record good for this kind of thing (or anything similar)? Be nice if the right decision was made and a good job was done, but I'll believe it when I see it... At least the state's not in charge of it. :-P

Why do you believe that? Is their track record good for this kind of thing (or anything similar)? Be nice if the right decision was made and a good job was done, but I'll believe it when I see it... At least the state's not in charge of it. :-PWell, you have a good point. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking more than anything.

A study showed that Oklahoma City could support a convention center hotel with a capacity of 735-rooms. We should be pushing for 700-900 room range to allow for 10-20 years of future growth.

He are two cities which possess hotels which might fit into that category:

Kansas City:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Hyatt_Regency_Crown_Center_Kansas_City_MO.jpg
Sheraton Kansas City Hotel at Crown Center

Rooms: 733
Suites: 39
Height: 504 feet, 45 stories
Value: $150 million


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSepuAqpXTe-nk4DJuJcroUzBf5Oa4e5NYqXn7VvCmF68dV6OTK6Q
Jacksonville, FL Hyatt Regency Riverfront Hotel

Rooms: 963
Height: 19 stories
Value: $200 million


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

KCMO just went pretty far into the hunt for the GOP convention but ultimately fell short with hotel count.

http://hoklife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/JWMarriott.jpg
JW Marriott Indianapolis, $450 million
JW Marriott Indianapolis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JW_Marriott_Indianapolis)

http://www.heroesonline.com/images/blog/images/westin-exterior.jpg
Westin Charlotte, Adjacent to Convention Center
Westin Charlotte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westin_Charlotte)

I like the first one better

That Hyatt in Jax is a mile from the convention center. The nearest thing Jax has to a convention hotel is the Omni but you have to take the Skyway train to get to the cc.

Btw - that yatch in the picture at one time was the 17th largest in the world. In person it is freaking huge.

yep, I think the KCMO hotel is nice to emulate; maybe 900 rooms though to give OKC flexibility for single large conventions, NBA Finals/All-Star games, or multiple smaller events.

One other idea is - maybe build two convention hotels (ala Tulsa), both being about 500 rooms or whatever. Let them have some architectural and retail significance to enhance the convention centre. Both hotels would have to be highrise given the limited footprint available - which would further add to OKC's skyline and give the city flexibility (large vs. multiple small events, big ticket/dollar vs conservative funded). This would also enhance OKC's business hotel offerability without impacting existing hotels too much.

I honestly like the idea of some sort of significant highrise hotel/office tower to be built WITH the Chesapeake Arena. Anyway, definitely some great ideas to be had and some Sim City ala OKC.

Good times indeed.

The Westin Charlotte is a very nice hotel. A JW Marriott is a step above though. Isn't OKC supposed to be getting a full-service Marriott downtown anyways? That seemed to be the indication from Steve's chat last week and then Pete confirmed.

Just to throw a question out there: Are there any large American cities where the convention center is in a suburb?

Orlando

http://www.occc.net/

Orlando

Welcome to the Orange County Convention Center (http://www.occc.net/)

To be fair, the convention center in Orlando is not technically in a suburb, but it is not downtown. But, I guess I take Orlando as an exception because their main attraction is Disney and the convention center is closer to that than downtown. Most city's main attractions are their downtown because that is where most of the hotels/restaurants/sight-seeing areas are.

To be fair, the convention center in Orlando is not technically in a suburb, but it is not downtown. But, I guess I take Orlando as an exception because their main attraction is Disney and the convention center is closer to that than downtown. Most city's main attractions are their downtown because that is where most of the hotels/restaurants/sight-seeing areas are.

It is actually in unincorporated Orange County. It has an Orlando mailing address but is not in the city limits.

Every city limit in the US
http://www.maptechnica.com/us-city-boundary-map/city/Oklahoma%20City/state/OK/cityid/4055000

It is actually in unincorporated Orange County. It has an Orlando mailing address but is not in the city limits.

Every city limit in the US
Oklahoma City, OK :: Boundary Map and Geodata for the City of Oklahoma City in Oklahoma, U.S.A. :: MapTechnica (http://www.maptechnica.com/us-city-boundary-map/city/Oklahoma%20City/state/OK/cityid/4055000)

It is in the "subburbs" the same way the stockyards is. That is to say it is not

It is actually in unincorporated Orange County. It has an Orlando mailing address but is not in the city limits.

Every city limit in the US
Oklahoma City, OK :: Boundary Map and Geodata for the City of Oklahoma City in Oklahoma, U.S.A. :: MapTechnica (http://www.maptechnica.com/us-city-boundary-map/city/Oklahoma%20City/state/OK/cityid/4055000)

Technically, Disney is in Lake Buena Vista, FL, but if you asked anyone where Disney World was, they would say Orlando.

It is in the "subburbs" the same way the stockyards is. That is to say it is not

I was using the term 'suburb' in the sense of the development style. The OCCC is in the land of curvelinear streets, cul-de-sacs, expressways, surface parking lots, and large setbacks. Very few people are walking to a convention at the OCCC.

Something like Austin new JW Marriott will look good in the OKC skyline

http://www.jwmarriottaustin.com/cms/cache/882x491_36_8a00a96dab59d987385f894d3b1609c4.jpg

Hotel in Downtown Austin | JW Marriott Austin (http://www.jwmarriottaustin.com/)

Something like Austin new JW Marriott will look good in the OKC skyline

http://www.jwmarriottaustin.com/cms/cache/882x491_36_8a00a96dab59d987385f894d3b1609c4.jpg

Hotel in Downtown Austin | JW Marriott Austin (http://www.jwmarriottaustin.com/)

Seriously, besides the Ritz-Carlton, the JW Marriott's are as nice a hotel as one can find in the states. The service is several steps above the average Marriott hotel as well.

I never stayed at a JW Marriott, but had heard great reviews.