Pete, there is a contact name and number on the Public Works bid info page at OKC.gov. Spoken with her before in a similar, but much lower profile situation. She was infinitely helpful.

Yeah, Cathy gave me another contact as well.

I just haven't been that interested due to the recent bombshell but I'll check into it tomorrow.

I was kind of hoping the Oklahoman would just do it for me. :)

I was kind of hoping the Oklahoman would just do it for me. :)

Aw, come on, Pete. You're fast becoming a peer / contributor. Maybe they're hoping you'll do it for them! :)

I don't think the average Oklahoman reader would understand the implications. I'd be quite fascinated to see the markets assessment of OKC, even if it is preliminary (unnegotiated) and obsolete at the same time.

I also would like to know how disappointed the 100 story dreamer crowd were going to be.

Haha, same here now that you mention it.

I also would like to know how disappointed the 100 story dreamer crowd were going to be.
Are you referring to me? 100 stories? For real?

I also would like to know how disappointed the 100 story dreamer crowd were going to be.

I would imagine, very. Publicly financed hotels tend to have very wide floorplates due to the ease of land assembly with public involvement. From architectural theory, remember that height is a function of stress factors that cause the need to build up - unless you have an ego behind the project. CC hotel projects also tend to shy away from the spotlight.

Indeed, Spartan. The continuous braying of the "because it would be so cool, and if we act like a big city" crowd is nauseating. Things simply don't work that way. The taller it is, the more expensive it is. You only build taller if it makes financial sense. I was hoping to see a little lesson in reality with the opening of the proposals.

There's a tug of war ideology that continues to clash.

Sure it's cool to have height; however if you need a 600-800 room hotel, you may as well add height to it in order to maximize the best use for the space available. Quality & quantity comes with a price. If you build something, take the quality of those projects into account. Each MAPS project should make an impact:


MAPS I Arena, ballpark, canal & river.
MAPS II (for Kids) New schools - John Marshall, Douglass & U.S. Grant
MAPS III Rapids, transit & convention center.

Let's get back to basics. Continue to build, accentuate the positives & move forward. Quality should be the focus as we build and while we're at it, let's build something that helps with the bloom while we boom.

A dark downtown conveys a dead city.

Seattle:

http://www.roomstays.com/images/travelguide/seattle_night_skyline.jpg



In the winter, it get's dark at 4:30 in Seattle. Most people are still at work then...

Also, this is gaining traction is many jurisdictions: http://www.darksky.org/

Back to topic...

In the winter, it get's dark at 4:30 in Seattle. Most people are still at work then...

Also, this is gaining traction is many jurisdictions: http://www.darksky.org/

Back to topic...

Downtown Tucson is quite dark at night, and while their major arteries are lit up their neighborhoods are very dark. This is due to the need for less light pollution for the astronomical observatories. It's an interesting sight.

Of the 7 responses to the convention hotel RFP, only one had renderings.

These are from TCH Altera out of Dallas who is proposing a 22-story tower of 520 rooms in the first phase, along with extensive meeting rooms and 4 levels of underground parking. A second phase would add 306 more rooms in a 15 floor tower.

The flag could be Hitlon, Hyatt or Westin - a few others were listed as less likely possibilities.

They were not specific in what they wanted in terms of public assistance, just listed a long list of possibilities like TIF, sales and property tax abatement, the City buying the hotel back at some point, etc.

I'll summarize the rest of the responses later but there was no other building porn and most them were very general and not very exciting to read.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/altera1.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/altera2.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/altera3.jpg

They could have combined the 22 and 15 story tower for a taller more impressive looking building. Don't like it.

I agree, no attempt to bridge the two parks whatsoever.

Dangit Pete, I want more "building porn."

Not that it matters now but a few observations.

1) It is in the wrong place (no idea where the right place is yet).
2) Would it kill someone to build out to the sidewalk? The first phase will be 200' from Robinson until some future date when the second phase is built (if that ever even happened)
3) The building is oriented the wrong way. In order to provide 'eyes on the park' to promote safety, the maximum number of rooms need to face the parks. Plus, the customers will want a park view - not a convention center and arena view.

While I agree the orientation is off with it not towards the park I bet its because of the Myriad gardens. Anything that large, east-west will cast a large shadow on the park.

While I agree the orientation is off with it not towards the park I bet its because of the Myriad gardens. Anything that large, east-west will cast a large shadow on the park.

Worries about shadows on the park from surrounding buildings have been discussed numerous times on various threads and been shown to be of no consequence. How much actual time would the sun cast a shadow on the park from a building placed there? For any one portion of the part, it's just not an issue. The sun doesn't stay stationary too often. Look at the shadow depiction in the diagram. None of the shadow falls on the park.

Worries about shadows on the park from surrounding buildings have been discussed numerous times on various threads and been shown to be on no consequence. How much actual time would the sun cast a shadow on the park from a building placed there? For any one portion of the part, it's just not an issue. The sun doesn't stay stationary too often. Look at the shadow depiction in the diagram. None of the shadow falls on the park.

Right I specifically asked the director of the Myriad Gardens about this and she wasn't concerned at all.

One of the reasons they may be angling the taller parts of the buildings in that way is to preserve sight lines from Central Park back towards the CBD.

I don't like the those renderings at all. I would build a taller tower that holds around the recommended rooms of 750. That would make it about 32 stories instead of that. I also get tired of hearing people talk about the buildings shading MBG. Devon hasn't seemed to impact it and it is pretty darn tall. In fact, some shading is important because the constant direct sunlight can be more harmful than some shading at times. People seem to forget the sun moves, or more accurately the earth moves. :D

Of the seven proposals, none specifically said they planned to build more than 600 rooms other than one.

You can pretty much count on about 600 rooms and 20 stories.

The amount of requested public assistance was also pretty staggering. Not all responses gave a specific number but of those that did, it ranged from $70 million to $147 million.

The number that had most commonly mentioned was $50 million, so it looks like the City would be kicking in more than that, and perhaps well more.

What people need to realize is that this will be a functional development, not a nice development that seeks to transform downtown. The urban thing is nice but not the goal here.

What people need to realize is that this will be a functional development, not a nice development that seeks to transform downtown. The urban thing is nice but not the goal here.
Blasphemy!

What people need to realize is that this will be a functional development, not a nice development that seeks to transform downtown. The urban thing is nice but not the goal here.

Well, it should be at least considered. Honestly, everything downtown should have the goal of integrating with the "urban thing". Oklahoma City needs to have an urban center, not because it's neato, but because it helps us compete with other markets and helps to diversify our lifestyle options within the community. I don't think it's all that difficult to take a couple of square miles out of 600 and try and create a real urban district.

I failed to mention just about all the responses were structured so that public assistance would be asked for as a percentage.

So, the bigger the hotel, the more public money that would have to go in.

Most the requests were in the 35% to 70% range. Scale up the hotel from 600 to 750 rooms, and a good percentage of that price difference would have to be funded by the public.

What people need to realize is that this will be a functional development, not a nice development that seeks to transform downtown. The urban thing is nice but not the goal here.

Well, it should be at least considered. Honestly, everything downtown should have the goal of integrating with the "urban thing". Oklahoma City needs to have an urban center, not because it's neato, but because it helps us compete with other markets and helps to diversify our lifestyle options within the community. I don't think it's all that difficult to take a couple of square miles out of 600 and try and create a real urban district.

Well, it should be at least considered. Honestly, everything downtown should have the goal of integrating with the "urban thing". Oklahoma City needs to have an urban center, not because it's neato, but because it helps us compete with other markets and helps to diversify our lifestyle options within the community. I don't think it's all that difficult to take a couple of square miles out of 600 and try and create a real urban district.

I agree 1000%. I'm just laying out the facts, this is how these CC hotel projects go, and given our track record with urban design, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with something even MORE utilitarian. Imagine the OUHSC Embassy Suites on steroids.

This project's parameters doesn't have urban design anywhere in it. This is about sheer room counts to funnel into the CC. Nobody with advanced background in physical planning or urban design is going to touch this with a ten foot pole.

I am just illustrating the reality for everyone in case anyone is still under the grand deception of "yay we're getting a tower, yay put it right there on the park, yay!"

The study said to build a 750 room hotel so IMO that is what they should do. I would also hope it's taller than 20 stories. Closer to 30 would make an impression on the skyline. I mean if you are going to do it,do it right the 1st time.

We definitely need to go with what the study recommended, something in the neighborhood of 735 rooms.

This was the reason why Mayor Ron Norick took the original MAPS plan underground to craft the projects; he knew the scrutiny by the public & the media wouldn't allow them to get anything done.

Of the 7 responses to the convention hotel RFP, only one had renderings.

These are from TCH Altera out of Dallas who is proposing a 22-story tower of 520 rooms in the first phase, along with extensive meeting rooms and 4 levels of underground parking. A second phase would add 306 more rooms in a 15 floor tower.

The flag could be Hitlon, Hyatt or Westin - a few others were listed as less likely possibilities.

They were not specific in what they wanted in terms of public assistance, just listed a long list of possibilities like TIF, sales and property tax abatement, the City buying the hotel back at some point, etc.

I'll summarize the rest of the responses later but there was no other building porn and most them were very general and not very exciting to read.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/altera1.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/altera2.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/altera3.jpg


Phase I - 22 story, 520 room the first tower; then Phase II, a 15 story, 306 room tower for a total of 826 rooms; this far exceeds the 735 room study recommendation total . This would allow OKC to grow its convention business.

Who knows, by the time they get ready to build the 2nd Phase there may be need for a second 22 story tower or taller with 520 plus rooms which would allow us to accommodate two large groups at one time. Can you imagine the possibility of 1,040 room availability?

Phase I - 22 story, 520 room the first tower; then Phase II, a 15 story, 306 room tower for a total of 826 rooms; this far exceeds the 735 room study recommendation total . This would allow OKC to grow its convention business.

Who knows, by the time they get ready to build the 2nd Phase there may be need for a second 22 story tower or taller with 520 plus rooms which would allow us to accommodate two large groups at one time. Can you imagine the possibility of 1,040 room availability?

I may have my wires crossed, but I'd rather any sort of convention hotel this results in be mostly if not all private. If not private, I hope for great success anyway, but that it remains smallish and provokes greater private growth.

Oklahoma City committee cuts convention hotel candidates down to four | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-committee-cuts-convention-hotel-candidates-down-to-four/article/5405330)

Hopefully Omni is chosen.

I don't get it. The City is asking for proposals and they don't even know where the CC will be built, how big it will be, or when it will open. They are putting the cart WAY before the horse.

They had already sent out the RFP and started the process before the recent site snafu, so they really don't have any choice but to keep going.

They are also asking the hotels where they would like the convention center to go.

Here are the four finalists; all specified a big chunk of public incentives would be needed as well as a parking structure

Dollar figures in millions

# Entity Flag Rooms Total Cost Public Cost Notes
1 Omni Omni 600 $190.2 $70.5 $119.7 in equity; no debt. Remainder is public.
2 Marcus Hilton 600 $210.0 $63 to $84 Operates the Skirvin; private equity 10-15%; private financing 50-55%
3 Matthew Westin 600 $180.0 $50 to $90? $90 private debt; $40 private equity; $50 private financing
4 Mortenson Hyatt 600 $200.0 $80 to $120 Public investment of 40-60%

How do they know how much it will cost if they don't even know when or where it will be built nor how big the CC will even be? This is ripe for major cost over-runs.

Well Mortensen is out.

I am glad that they are requesting design proposals before making the decision... Otherwise they would already have enough to go off, literally. Omni has put together a very strong proposal this far, but if we are subsidizing a hotel, the design is paramount to me.

I'm not comfortable with Marcus' debt load.

How do they know how much it will cost if they don't even know when or where it will be built nor how big the CC will even be? This is ripe for major cost over-runs.

Bc land assembly is not their concern...you're thinking of a normal development.

How do they know how much it will cost if they don't even know when or where it will be built nor how big the CC will even be? This is ripe for major cost over-runs.

They all estimate their costs by key (room), so their part is pretty straight-forward. They all budget about $300K to $350K per key and that includes standard common areas and amenities.

They are not being asked to factor in land costs, parking or meeting rooms. It's still not clear how those things will be handled.

Worth noting the Ft Worth Omni is 615 rooms and 33 floors, but was originally planned to be 15-21 floors. Also has residences though?

The Dallas Convention center Omni is gorgeous. 1001 rooms and 23 floors I believe. I would be very happy with Omni and think they would put together a beautiful CC Hotel.

So I guess the hotel footprint will be same regardless of location or CC layout.

Worth noting the Ft Worth Omni is 615 rooms and 33 floors, but was originally planned to be 15-21 floors. Also has residences though?

Yes - the are several floors of residences that comprise the "tower" part of the Ft Worth Omni. I would love to see a similar development in OKC.

So I guess the hotel footprint will be same regardless of location or CC layout.

Right, although there is much to be decided about parking and meeting rooms. The hotel itself will almost certainly have quite a bit of meeting space independent of the convention center.

The one proposal where I uploaded the images.... That had a huge meeting facility that was attached but somewhat separate from the main hotel.

Although that proposal did not make the final cut, they were the only ones to think that far ahead and show parking and meeting rooms. Those two things will add a bunch to the total cost of this project.

The Dallas Omni is one of the nicest hotels we've ever stayed in by far. OKC would do well to go with Omni -- and OKC would have the benefit to critique / improve upon the Dallas one. It is a very nice hotel with outstanding service.

Yes - the are several floors of residences that comprise the "tower" part of the Ft Worth Omni. I would love to see a similar development in OKC.

I'm curious about these residences at the Ft. Worth Omni. Are they like full apartments or are they large studio-like suites that they sell and/or place on long-term lease?

While how nice a hotel may be is certainly an important factor, everyone needs to keep in mind that there will be significant public money put into this project; at least $60 million and perhaps more than $100 million.

That's a huge variable in all this.

While how nice a hotel may be is certainly an important factor, everyone needs to keep in mind that there will be significant public money put into this project; at least $60 million and perhaps more than $100 million.

That's a huge variable in all this.

Lightly stated, yes. "Oh, by the way, did we happen to mention...."

I'm curious about these residences at the Ft. Worth Omni. Are they like full apartments or are they large studio-like suites that they sell and/or place on long-term lease?

They are quite nice, full apartment sized residences.

Downtown Fort Worth Condos | Ft. Worth Luxury Condominiums - 1301 Throckmorton (http://www.omniresidences.com/index.html)

Cathy O'Conner just said in the City Council meeting that they are working on having urban renewal acquiring the site for the CC hotel which then wouldnt matter if it was publicly or privately owned. Interesting ripple that brings the original site into play like has already been said.

While how nice a hotel may be is certainly an important factor, everyone needs to keep in mind that there will be significant public money put into this project; at least $60 million and perhaps more than $100 million.

That's a huge variable in all this.

Pete, your assessment is reality. We'll have to invest millions if we want this to pay off. Oklahoma City has got to look at its neighbors to the south (Metroplex). Get away from the half step and do the Texas two step. Our city is at the crossroads & on the verge; it's time to break out...

Even if urban renewal buys it, it still requires a willing seller. If the same site is picked again do we still pay $250,000?

Pete White just going off on the Convention Center in today's City Council meeting, as they were being asked to approve the increased contract with Populous:

"The convention center committee is running the entire MAPS program. ALL our discussions and efforts are about the convention center and how we get the money for it. It's the tail wagging the dog. I just don't understand it. Nobody in my district even wants it."

"When the sidewalks went way over budget, we took money out of the general fund to be able to do a decent amount of mileage. And that was all to protect the contingency fund so the convention center could have more money."

"We are moving down a path without any concern for budget. The first site was changed by the committee. They we were going to pay $106 million for the new site; the only reason we didn't was due to issues over eminent domain. I bet we would have paid the $106 million."

This might be the liveliest council stream I've ever watched.

It's been great! I'm glad these things are going out into the open and being openly discussed.

Shadid really trying to pin Cathy O'Connor down on the public investment piece of the convention hotel.

Last time O'Connor and Tom Morsch (consultant) presented to the Council last fall, they said there "may be" public investment required.

But all the RFP responses came back in the $200 million range just for the hotel -- not including parking, land or additional meeting rooms -- and all indicated 40-60% public subsidy would be required.

Finally got Cathy to acknowledge that fact (had not been mentioned anywhere, even though these were received on March 3rd and Cathy was interviewed by both the JR and Oklahoman), but he really had keep asking very pointed and informed questions.

I thought it was interesting how McAtee was quick to chime in he was still hoping for zero public assistance and was on the committee that ultimately will have some say or direction in the Hotel. I still think the urban renewal is an interesting touch. Yet, how far behind does this put the CC. If populous will have their study done by July(I believe) and they choose a site and then urban renewal imminent domain is used when does that leave us. For the sake of other Maps projects they need to delay it behind some other projects and make it close to last, that way when its short on money in every aspect it cant draw from other budgets and they could then put it to a vote to extend it to make up for their shortcomings. But I think what Shadid and White see are budgets being cut all around except for this project which seems to be the most important to a select few. Yet, if a vote is required to reallocated the maps money from certain projects into the CC which is responsbile for that? Is it Maps committee? or the City council?

I still think the urban renewal is an interesting touch. Yet, how far behind does this put the CC. If populous will have their study done by July(I believe) and they choose a site and then urban renewal imminent domain is used when does that leave us.

(Not to hfry in particular) Why is using OCURA an idea? Can you spend more money and hide it under the OCURA mantel that way? Does it allow the city to spend more money on the Convention Center (or hotel) without using MAPS money (why in the world wound any city do that?)? Can OCURA buy the original plot of land at any price and sell / give it to the City for the budgeted price?

I thought it was interesting how McAtee was quick to chime in he was still hoping for zero public assistance and was on the committee that ultimately will have some say or direction in the Hotel. I still think the urban renewal is an interesting touch. Yet, how far behind does this put the CC. If populous will have their study done by July(I believe) and they choose a site and then urban renewal imminent domain is used when does that leave us. For the sake of other Maps projects they need to delay it behind some other projects and make it close to last, that way when its short on money in every aspect it cant draw from other budgets and they could then put it to a vote to extend it to make up for their shortcomings. But I think what Shadid and White see are budgets being cut all around except for this project which seems to be the most important to a select few. Yet, if a vote is required to reallocated the maps money from certain projects into the CC which is responsbile for that? Is it Maps committee? or the City council?
The maps committees only have recommending authority. The city council makes all the decisions