^^^^ + 1000

How many rooms is that? 1,000? Would 1,500 be better? How about FIVE THOUSAND ROOMS? That would be GREAT! Amiright?

There is an optimal number for the planned facility. Any more would likely require extensive, open-ended subsidy. It would also artificially impact supply/demand downtown and cause real financial harm to existing hotels by depressing room rates. The whole thing is a delicate balance that requires careful consideration, not a juvenile, poorly-contemplated "bigger/taller is always better" approach.

I know the favorite sport on here is to second guess public officials, but this is a project where we would be very wise to pay heed to consultants.Except when public officials recommend something like building a new highway. Then it's okay to second guess them.

I think it's better to go big rather than go home and do at least 1,000 rooms. That's just my thinking though.

Some more info.:

The RFP specifically states that proposals should be for a 500 to 800 room hotel. While it's possible a group may propose bigger or smaller, it's unlikely.

This is from the study done by the outside consultants the City hired:

We believe a 735-room Upper Upscale, full-service hotel (Hilton, Marriott, Starwood, Hyatt, or similar variation as identified by the industry standard - Smith Travel Research) would successfully meet the needs created by the new convention center being developed in downtown Oklahoma City.
We have also assumed that the new convention center will be coming online by early 2019 and operating as intended. Ideally the hotel would open around the same time and should offer upper upscale (3 to 4-star) accommodations. We believe a 735-room Upper Upscale, full-service hotel (Hilton, Marriott, Starwood, Hyatt, or similar variation) would successfully meet the needs created by the new convention center being developed in downtown Oklahoma City.


This is from that same study:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cchotel020715.jpg

Know that it is difficult to predict what the city will need come 2020 thru 2025. The study appears to be conservative with some wiggle room (500+/800-).

Hope they go with the higher 735-800 rooms. We are the only major city in this region (Tulsa, Wichita, Fort Worth, Kansas City, Dallas, Houston) without a Hyatt Regency.

If the 735 Room estimate was a minimum number rooms for this project, then we need to look at this from a much larger perspective. Image. Why would we want to spend $250 M and get the minimum number of rooms ? We shouldn't. We are not Texas. We are not Austin, Dallas, or Houston, ....we are OKC and we have a totally different set of National Perceptions we need to make sure that this Hotel is a statement of Who we want to be and Not what we have been.

Let's make this project a Statement of our best.......not the minimum. This is not a "state project"....thankfully. This is city project, and it will reflect who we want it to be. It is about capacity to handle the larger conventions, not just the scraps of business. This is about Recurring business from people outside our city & state excited about being here and wanting to return. It is that simple. This is not the time to build a "AAA Baseball Stadium" for our convention hotel. ...it doesn't have to be The Venetian in Vegas, but this is our opportunity to make a statement. Atlanta, Denver both have 1,000 + rooms. We need to hit that mark too. Let's build for the future, not the past.

I'm with Urbanized on this. The teenage perspective of bigger is always better is pretty naive when it comes to business planning.

In this case, bigger can actually quite easily be WORSE. But whatever, there is no reasoning with some people.

Suffice to say that there is probably not a single regular poster on this board who wants extra hotel guests downtown more than I do, or who is more personally invested in getting them here. I'm not saying these things just for the sake of arguing.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. I'm out, as it pertains to the size debate. Carry on.

Some more info.:

The RFP specifically states that proposals should be for a 500 to 800 room hotel. While it's possible a group may propose bigger or smaller, it's unlikely.

This is from the study done by the outside consultants the City hired:

We believe a 735-room Upper Upscale, full-service hotel (Hilton, Marriott, Starwood, Hyatt, or similar variation as identified by the industry standard - Smith Travel Research) would successfully meet the needs created by the new convention center being developed in downtown Oklahoma City.
We have also assumed that the new convention center will be coming online by early 2019 and operating as intended. Ideally the hotel would open around the same time and should offer upper upscale (3 to 4-star) accommodations. We believe a 735-room Upper Upscale, full-service hotel (Hilton, Marriott, Starwood, Hyatt, or similar variation) would successfully meet the needs created by the new convention center being developed in downtown Oklahoma City.


This is from that same study:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cchotel020715.jpg

Those consultants used projected attendance data from the Chamber/Convention Sports and Leisure report. Not sure why anyone would rely on either at this point.

I'm with Urbanized on this. The teenage perspective of bigger is always better is pretty naive when it comes to business planning.

Also part of business 101...not all business is worth pursuing. Sometimes it just isn't profitable. The groupthink around here seems to be we want every convention we could possibly get regardless of cost. No thanks.

I've heard the architects are Populous (same as convention center) and GSB. This is from another local architect so I don't know if that's a fact. GSB has a decent hospitality portfolio: Hospitality | gsb (http://www.gsb-inc.com/hospitality)

I say 800 rooms at 28 stories. Would that satisfy? Is that too big for the Anti-teenage group? Is this too small from the teenage perspective?

When we open our doors for business on this one, we don't want to say NO to the larger groups. This IS the business question you must answer first. How much business do you want to miss on. If we spend over a quarter of a billion dollars and we are ok with telling the larger groups "sorry our brand new hotel is too small to accommodate your group". That is the business decision that we must make.

The NEW OKC Convention Hotel should be this.... Impressive, Exciting, and has that WOW factor. It must be 100 % capable of saying YES to every convention group that calls and expresses an interest in our new shiny city.....OKC.

This is simply a business plan designed to capture existing market-share.....and tomorrow's new business too. It's that simple.

When we open our doors for business on this one, we don't want to say NO to the larger groups. This IS the business question you must answer first. How much business do you want to miss on. If we spend over a quarter of a billion dollars and we are ok with telling the larger groups "sorry our brand new hotel is too small to accommodate your group". That is the business decision that we must make.

The NEW OKC Convention Hotel should be this.... Impressive, Exciting, and has that WOW factor. It must be 100 % capable of saying YES to every convention group that calls and expresses an interest in our new shiny city.....OKC.

This is simply a business plan designed to capture existing market-share.....and tomorrow's new business too. It's that simple.

Theoretically, Jessica Alba, Kate Upton, and Jennifer Lawrence could all come over to my house tonight. That doesn't mean that I need to run out and buy an ultra-king sized bed today on the 10% chance that it happens.

Where's that ignore button?

While I agree with Urbanized and Rover in principle, I think OKC needs to consider the image here with this. And, since we're using taxpayer funding we might as well get our biggest bang for our buck.

What does that mean? I think something north of the suggested minimum of 735 would be fine. Whether that's 750, 800, 900, or 1000 - I don't know but I would be impressed with anything above 735. Especially given Urbanized great synopsis about convention blocks (typically of 500 rooms), it would be nice for the hotel to make premium $$ on the rest of the rooms and I think OKC could support another 300 or so room 4 star hotel downtown to give hilton and renaissance a little competition while also increasing the market for that segment. ...

Sure for image and bragging rights I'd love for OKC to build the largest hotel in the state (likely ever) at 1000 rooms or north of it. But, if that isn't possible then I'd be more than impressed if OKC built 800 and supported that. Nice compromise?

While I agree with Urbanized and Rover in principle, I think OKC needs to consider the image here with this. And, since we're using taxpayer funding we might as well get our biggest bang for our buck.

What does that mean? I think something north of the suggested minimum of 735 would be fine. Whether that's 750, 800, 900, or 1000 - I don't know but I would be impressed with anything above 735. Especially given Urbanized great synopsis about convention blocks (typically of 500 rooms), it would be nice for the hotel to make premium $$ on the rest of the rooms and I think OKC could support another 300 or so room 4 star hotel downtown to give hilton and renaissance a little competition while also increasing the market for that segment. ...

Sure for image and bragging rights I'd love for OKC to build the largest hotel in the state (likely ever) at 1000 rooms or north of it. But, if that isn't possible then I'd be more than impressed if OKC built 800 and supported that. Nice compromise?

I agree.

Whatever gets done, I hope the city doesn't decide to go cheap and do less than 735 rooms. I also hope it is iconic in some way architecturally.

Nm

BYW, what is the criteria for ICONIC? Is that just something you really like?

Something that stands out. Something a little MORE like this.

http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/files/import/127716-omnilights.jpg

And LESS like this.

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/04/2c/35/8f/sheraton-oklahoma-city.jpg

I understand a lot of people on here aren't fans of LED lighting. Here is an alternative.

http://www.tnetnoc.com/hotelphotos/071/1110071/2631759-Omni-Nashville-Hotel-Hotel-Exterior-1-DEF.jpg

Iconic, to me, is anything that when shown around the country, or around the world, would be recognizable immediately as being exclusively OKC. None of those are iconic. We tend to throw around "iconic" and "world class" too easily. We need something appropriate, with good aesthetics, and affordable. We do not have to have something iconic.

ya, Urban/Rover - we agree with you. I just think the city could support more non-block convention rooms in 4+ star level than just 235 rooms. Plus, having a larger hotel gives the city the opportunity to go after a Tier 1 convention and compete handedly in the Tier 2 market.

Whether it's 1000+ or 'just' 800; I think we need to go bigger than the recommended minimum (735) for image, longevity/potential, and to 'reward' taxpayers if you will by getting yet another OKC icon they can be proud of. Just taking your great posts and expanding a little bit based on OKC's potential and NEED to go big in order to compete.


Just for insight/inspiration: Seattle originally built the Sheraton Hotel back in the late 1980's at something like 600 rooms IIRC. Seattle's Washington State Convention Centre is smaller than OKC's planned convention center yet Seattle is obviously a Tier 2 market and gets those bookings. This lead to the rise of a number of other hotels nearby AND most recently an expansion of the Sheraton Hotel to the current number of just under 1300 rooms, by far the largest in the state (iirc). Keep in mind that SEA has to compete with a Tier 1 international competitor only 130 miles to the north who 'naturally' gets the best conventions, so we 'eventually' went big.

Since OKC is looking to compete in Tier 2, has steep regional competition (Dallas only 150 miles S), AND since OKC is seeking taxpayer assistance for a grand convention hotel - my argument is let's do it right the first time because going back to the well may prove more difficult (AND EXPENSIVE) than it would be now. We wont beat Dallas but it would be great to be 'considered' as at least an alternative for large bookings when they are overbooked (for instance) or have those 'extra' rooms available at the premium price-point.

I don't want this hotel to look like it belongs in Vegas.

The RFP responses are due back in just over 3 weeks, so we should get a good look at some options at that time.

Since there will likely be multiple submissions, I suspect the bidders will do their best to present some nice conceptual renderings in an attempt to gain consideration.

Very interested to see the various proposals.

So are we talking the March 3rd city council meeting, or some meeting more specialized to the discussion?

"AND since OKC is seeking taxpayer assistance for a grand convention hotel - my argument is let's do it right the first time because going back to the well may prove more difficult (AND EXPENSIVE) than it would be now."
---------------------------

Great timing. We're living an uncertainty with oil prices, never tested under these market conditions, and we act like Oklahoma City's only needs for the future lie with a, "grand convention hotel," partially paid for by taxpayers. Great timing. Where are the "conservatives" who should consider this kind of government giveaway - at this time - lunacy? Oh, right, if it benefits the fat cats downtown, any giveaway is an "investment."

Since this is being subsidized, it should be eye-catching (in a good way). BTW, many of the new towers in Vegas are very nice, not at all like the old gaudy style on the strip. You can have eye-catching or even iconic in a good way, like the Transamerica building in SF and U.S. Bank tower in L.A. without being trendy or showy.

There will be compromises between cost and aesthetics. Developers will not do excessive design and risk pricing themselves (and consequently OKC Conventions) out of the picture. That would do no one good. Nice and upscale with appropriate amenities is going to be required., but it doesn't have to be a Ritz. Omni is a a great compromise. They don't tend to try to be "iconic", but good value in a full service hotel. Given that we are seeing multiple parties interested, I tend to believe the chosen one will be a pretty nice design and brand.

What about a W? Something like this would be very modern and aesthetically pleasing without being too gaudy.

http://www.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/W-Bangkok.jpg

Looks great bchris02:

Just as Hot Rod mentioned about Seattle's stages of development...

Oklahoma City is in a four stage transition: Egg, Larva, Pupa to the Adult Butterfly. We're somewhere near the second stage. You want developments to succeed; then don't be afraid to take some risks--it's called skin in the game.

The Devon Tower and the Skydance Bridge are structures that are recognized as apart of our transition. Get ready, there's more to come.

Ideally, let's seek a serious conference hotel offer that will rival what we need to attract our share of tier 2 conventions; let's meet the challenge, set the bar a tab higher. Competition will make for a better OKC hotel industry.

I'm staying at the W in Dallas in a couple weeks. Looks pretty nice to me!

Marriott currently being built in Houston, I can see something like this here. 10129 10130

Ok, this may sound a bit cheesy but I actually think it would be cool. What would you think of a W Hotel that is basically some what shaped like a W? For example, to fairly tall towers on each end and the middle being more solid with a bit of a pyramid shape. It would be one building but give the illusion of 2 tower and perhaps 3. It would be the first W Hotel to literally look a bit like a W and I think it would look pretty hip. This isn't a serious post as I know that isn't likely to happen, just another one of my genius ideas. :D

Ok, this may sound a bit cheesy but I actually think it would be cool. What would you think of a W Hotel that is basically some what shaped like a W? For example, to fairly tall towers on each end and the middle being more solid with a bit of a pyramid shape. It would be one building but give the illusion of 2 tower and perhaps 3. It would be the first W Hotel to literally look a bit like a W and I think it would look pretty hip. This isn't a serious post as I know that isn't likely to happen, just another one of my genius ideas. :D

What would be more of a possibility is an Omni hotel shaped as an "O".

Or a Hyatt shaped like an H. They can build two 50 story towers and the link them with a skybridge in middle.

What would be more of a possibility is an Omni hotel shaped as an "O".

Who wouldn't want to come and stay at the "Big O"? :cool:

Theoretically, Jessica Alba, Kate Upton, and Jennifer Lawrence could all come over to my house tonight. That doesn't mean that I need to run out and buy an ultra-king sized bed today on the 10% chance that it happens.

10%?!?!!

Man you are optimistic and/or confident. :-)

What would be more of a possibility is an Omni hotel shaped as an "O".

Sheraton in China...

10131

10%?!?!!

Man you are optimistic and/or confident. :-)

lol

Iconic, to me, is anything that when shown around the country, or around the world, would be recognizable immediately as being exclusively OKC. None of those are iconic. We tend to throw around "iconic" and "world class" too easily. We need something appropriate, with good aesthetics, and affordable. We do not have to have something iconic.

I wish I could find it now, but a few years ago I watched a program on iconic architecture. The basic rule of thumb was that to be iconic it could be depicted in a drawing using 5 black lines or less and the structure and city could be identified by 90% of people surveyed. Some of them I remember were the Golden Gate Bridge, Eiffel Tower, Pyramid at Giza, Sydney Opera House, Leaning Tower of Pisa, St Louis Arch, original World Trade Centers, Seattle Space Needle, Burj-al-Arab, and the original LAX control tower. There were more but I don't remember them.

What about a W? Something like this would be very modern and aesthetically pleasing without being too gaudy.


I would love that too, but we (Starwood) don't have very many W hotels next to or attached to convention centers. In fact, there are only two:

W Montreal
http://www.starwoodhotels.com/pub/media/1471/who1471ex.156232_xx.jpg

W San Francisco
http://images.quikbook.com/400x300/w-san-francisco-san-francisco-exterior-1268-100.jpg

Starwood will be more likely to propose a Westin:

Westin Minneapolis
http://www.starwoodhotels.com/pub/media/1723/wes1723ex.142954_xx.jpg

Westin Austin Downtown
http://lodgingmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/westinaustindowntown-620x330.jpg

I would love that too, but we (Starwood) don't have very many W hotels next to or attached to convention centers. In fact, there are only two:

W Montreal
http://www.starwoodhotels.com/pub/media/1471/who1471ex.156232_xx.jpg
If we got something like this, I wouldn't care so much about height. Of course, height would be an added plus, but a hotel like this would be awesome.

We should know the direction where we could possibly be headed on the conference hotel come mid March and beyond. A 735-800 room conference hotel should allow us room for growth into the 2020-30 decade. MAPS 4 collections (2017-2025) will give us some kind of indication about market supply & demand.

Projections:

MAPS 4, if all goes as projected we won't need to subsidize anything. A second conference hotel could be in demand as the convention center hotel complex swallows up the Chesapeake Energy Arena; plans for a new world-class NBA arena (possibly a public-private partnership) as apart of MAPS 5 collections (2025-2032) would be our next center piece project.

As much as I would love to have a W Hotel, I just don't think it should be the "Convention Hotel" because of the higher prices and perhaps just a little bit too much of a step up for this. Yeah, I can't believe I just said that but I think I would rather see an Omni or Westin type hotel and between 750-850 rooms. Someone posted the O shaped Sheraton and the more I looked at it, the more I loved it. It would be perfect for OKC, it is basically almost putting the O in OKC. It would look great, be iconic and recognizable and would be a place that not many cities in the country or world would have.

It would only further draw more people to come here and want to stay in a place like that. With that said, I loved the W pics above and if the CC Hotel does well, it would be amazing to build a smaller 350 room W Hotel to combine with the CC Hotel. It would put us around 1000-1100 rooms and that would be ideal. I don't think anyone would be upset by getting moved to the W if the CC Hotel was booked. Ok, it is settled, we should campaign for an 800 room Omni shaped like an O like the pic above (could someone re-post it in a bigger pic) and then get the ball rolling on a W Hotel to follow. If this happens, OKC has arrived and will be known as a major player. :cool:

This is getting ridiculous. After reading this thread, now I'm hoping for something like this, just to piss people off:


http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/d9/bc/65/motel-6-san-angelo.jpg

^that would almost be worth the meltdown.

This is getting ridiculous. After reading this thread, now I'm hoping for something like this, just to piss people off:


http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/d9/bc/65/motel-6-san-angelo.jpg

Really? I was thinking something more along the lines of this.

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/1d/e8/c6/motel-parking-lot.jpg

maybe what okc needs is a good old fashioned fin and feather center

Home at Fin and Feather - Oklahoma's Family Resort (http://finandfeather.publishpath.com/)

Really? I was thinking something more along the lines of this.

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/1d/e8/c6/motel-parking-lot.jpg

It's sad but I think I've stayed in both of those motels.

As far as I can tell from that picture, I'd actually happily stay in that last one. It looks like a charmer, and I like little roadside motels like that sometimes on driving vacations, for the nostalgic/homey factor.

As far as I can tell from that picture, I'd actually happily stay in that last one. It looks like a charmer, and I like little roadside motels like that sometimes on driving vacations, for the nostalgic/homey factor.

I agree. One time on a visit from North Carolina I stayed at a "Star Motor Inn" in Cookeville TN. It had a real nostalgic feel to it.

We're straying a bit from topic, but one of my favorite roadside motels of all time is the Curly Redwood Lodge in Crescent, CA. The entire motel, including interior elements such as paneling and furniture, was built from a single giant redwood.

Lets move some mountains while we're at it. We need to make an impression. (I guess the mound over at the cultural center site might have to do.)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Many_Glacier_Hotel.jpg

We can just cover the Producers Co-op with dirt. That would give us some nice picturesque rolling hills for the backdrop.

This is getting ridiculous. After reading this thread, now I'm hoping for something like this, just to piss people off:


http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/d9/bc/65/motel-6-san-angelo.jpg


In my previous post I was just having some fun, something this board needs at times. I didn't really think we will be getting an O shaped building and a W Hotel next to it, but it sure sounds cool! Some of you are seriously wound up a little too tight. Relax, take some deep breaths and just have some fun and not get so bent out of shape. I'm a pretty social and fun person but this site brings out my inner nerd self. I've loved looking at skyscrapers since I was a kid. I used to draw downtown buildings and compare skylines when I was as young as 8 years old. My 11, I think I had memorized the population of every major city in the country! Some of you guys though scare me, I mean this site brings out the bitterness and anger within you and that's a bit scary. Take some deep breaths and just realize that it's a message board and we all have the same thing in common and that is improving OKC- we just differ at times on how to do it and what it needs. It is however nothing that should ever warrant all the times people get mad and attack someone personally, or even worse send me a personal message attacking and threatening me like one poster on here did.

#BoardDrama

What about a W hotel, next to an Omni hotel and the Winstar builds a hotel next to that, then a small amenities building with a pool south of it? From above, it would spell WOW!

Nice!

what about a w hotel, next to an omni hotel and the winstar builds a hotel next to that, then a small amenities building with a pool south of it? from above, it would spell wow!

that would literally put okc on the map!

Iconic!

We can just cover the Producers Co-op with dirt. That would give us some nice picturesque rolling hills for the backdrop.

Murals of iconic structures with LED lighting and mountains in the background.

LMAO! I don't know what you guys have been smoking but pass the pipe.

Let's reconstruct

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4mw3SEkDhsNZwCdvsB3GnHmeG-w56apBLygzNkKatAR_zNbHzhttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSDRF_sJOLX6INR4gbkNo8Ij29aNDJa O8yP19p6r3wXaowUcSjjg
Oklahoma City needs a Bates...