actually, the downtowns are very comparable in area but SA is just more built up (or should I say, not torn down).

as for portland, consider the block sizes they use (very small) when trying to compare. Yet, I'd agree that Portland CBD is probably twice as built up but still not as impressive as OKC due to their OVER-use of midrises (again, likely due to the block sizes).

I'm not too familiar with OKC's downtown boundaries but from the little research I did on this forum, you guys consider OKC's downtown to be a network of districts in the central area of OKC? The business district, arts district, bricktown, etc.

The area called "downtown" in San Antonio is what I guess you would call the business district in OKC. In SA, downtown is so called the Central Business District.

So in essence, I guess what I'm saying is SA has a much larger CBD which has a wide gap of high rises clusters.

Outside of downtown are the "fringe districts" of Southtown, River North, SoFlo, Midtown, Pearl, LoBro, Near East and Cattleman Sqaure. They, along with downtown/cbd, make up the urban core of San Antonio.

Those districts would be like the Bricktown, Arts, Midtown districts in OKC that combined to make the downtown of OKC.

you should factor in that Core to Shore will add 1300 acres of new downtown. The park will take 78 acres and the convention center will occupy some but there will be plenty of room for development there.

Add the Health and Science center and downtown OKC may be a little larger than downtown SA.

I think the land area considered to be a part of downtown compared to other cities is irrelevant if large swaths of that land is covered by surface parking and grassy lots. San Antonio's downtown is clearly much denser and more built out even if it's smaller in actual size. Whether or not that's actually the case depends on how you define downtown. San Antonio's CBD dwarfs OKC's, but when you add in the surrounding districts the size becomes more similar. Still, San Antonio is much more built out while OKC still has a lot of surface parking and grass lots, filled with potential, waiting for a developer.

SA's downtown is not so much "built out" as "not demolished". I was on a ULI trip down there in November and was amazed by how many beautiful buildings were still standing there, empty, waiting to be renovated. Incredible potential still remains. In OKC those buildings would have been turned to rubble decades ago.

I'll also point out that I wouldn't consider a place like The Pearl to be downtown SA. Distance- and connectivity-wise it was perhaps comparable to Farmers Market, but back when an elevated I-40 served as a barrier. The districts commonly included in the defined boundaries of downtown OKC are far more contiguous. The big difference for Pearl is the river connection provided by Museum Reach.

That said, Pearl might be the best large-scale urban infill redevelopment in the U.S.. It's absolutely incredible.

On the subject, here's a write up on the current and proposed hotel projects in downtown Dallas:

Building boom could add more than 1,000 hotel rooms in downtown Dallas | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/business/columnists/steve-brown/20150129-building-boom-could-add-more-than-1000-hotel-rooms-in-downtown-dallas.ece)

Steep competition. Which is why I'm not sure OKC could ever land anything "big" over Dallas, given that it's only a couple hours away. This makes it more important to compete against the other mid tier cities.

On the subject, here's a write up on the current and proposed hotel projects in downtown Dallas:

Building boom could add more than 1,000 hotel rooms in downtown Dallas | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/business/columnists/steve-brown/20150129-building-boom-could-add-more-than-1000-hotel-rooms-in-downtown-dallas.ece)

Steep competition. Which is why I'm not sure OKC could ever land anything "big" over Dallas, given that it's only a couple hours away. This makes it more important to compete against the other mid tier cities.

It's a nationwide arms race to capture the market. The other side isn't standing by. Good for convention planners to have lots of options and competition from providers. Bad for cities spending their money to compete for that business.

SA's downtown is not so much "built out" as "not demolished". I was on a ULI trip down there in November and was amazed by how many beautiful buildings were still standing there, empty, waiting to be renovated. Incredible potential still remains. In OKC those buildings would have been turned to rubble decades ago.

I'll also point out that I wouldn't consider a place like The Pearl to be downtown SA. Distance- and connectivity-wise it was perhaps comparable to Farmers Market, but back when an elevated I-40 served as a barrier. The districts commonly included in the defined boundaries of downtown OKC are far more contiguous. The big difference for Pearl is the river connection provided by Museum Reach.

That said, Pearl might be the best large-scale urban infill redevelopment in the U.S.. It's absolutely incredible.

The Pearl is most definitely not downtown. it's about a mile and a half north of downtown (from Main Plaza). It's technically within Midtown and in the Tobin Hill neighborhood, but has quickly made its own name for itself, separate from both Midtown and Tobin hill.

As I said previously, Downtown San Antonio is one whole area and would be considered the CBD of San Antonio just like the Business District of OKC.

The other districts outside of downtown help to make up the urban core of San Antonio.

And yes, the urban loop does provide a disconnect within the urban core. Many have wanted to bury (tunnel) the section of i37 that runs north and south on the east side of downtown. Similar to the big dig in Boston.

On the subject, here's a write up on the current and proposed hotel projects in downtown Dallas:

Building boom could add more than 1,000 hotel rooms in downtown Dallas | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/business/columnists/steve-brown/20150129-building-boom-could-add-more-than-1000-hotel-rooms-in-downtown-dallas.ece)

Steep competition. Which is why I'm not sure OKC could ever land anything "big" over Dallas, given that it's only a couple hours away. This makes it more important to compete against the other mid tier cities.

That's not really that impressive for a city the size of Dallas, OKC has more than that planned/UC as well. Same here in Denver.

That's not really that impressive for a city the size of Dallas, OKC has more than that planned/UC as well. Same here in Denver.

It's impressive, imo, because that area of Dallas already has a ton of hotels and they literally opened a new 1,000 room high rise convention center hotel in the last year or two. So another 1,000 rooms in multiple projects shows demand is there when there are already a crap ton kf hotel rooms already.

Whereas in OKC. there weren't many hotel rooms so the demand was understandable and the new rooms are just meeting demand in what seems to be an underserved area.

Denver is an inbetween situation.

P.s.

Are there really 1,000 under construction or planned for downtown okc?

P.s.

Are there really 1,000 under construction or planned for downtown okc?

It's closer to 2,000 if you look at the hotel summary:

Downtown Hotel Summary - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Downtown+Hotel+Summary)

It's impressive, imo, because that area of Dallas already has a ton of hotels and they literally opened a new 1,000 room high rise convention center hotel in the last year or two. So another 1,000 rooms in multiple projects shows demand is there when there are already a crap ton kf hotel rooms already.

Whereas in OKC. there weren't many hotel rooms so the demand was understandable and the new rooms are just meeting demand in what seems to be an underserved area.

Denver is an inbetween situation.

P.s.

Are there really 1,000 under construction or planned for downtown okc?
If you count the proposed convention center hotel, yes.

http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Downtown+Hotel+Summary

It's closer to 2,000 if you look at the hotel summary:

Downtown Hotel Summary - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Downtown+Hotel+Summary)

Clicked the link and counted. I wouldn't count the Convention center hotel because right now it's a hypothetical and speculative figure.

Also, and I don't mean this as an insult but an observation, but why are almost all the hotels designed to look like suburban hotels?

Clicked the link and counted. I wouldn't count the Convention center hotel because right now it's a hypothetical and speculative figure.

Also, and I don't mean this as an insult but an observation, but why are almost all the hotels designed to look like suburban hotels?

The convention center hotel is not hypothetical. It's going to happen and whatever room count it ends up with would still put the room count well above 1000. And don't get us started about the design of the hotels. That's a very hot topic here. :wink:

The convention center hotel is not hypothetical. It's going to happen and whatever room count it ends up with would still put the room count well above 1000. And don't get us started about the design of the hotels. That's a very hot topic here. :wink:

I agree, it will happen, but there is no tangible proposal. So I wouldn't count those rooms at this time.

Let's not turn this into a SA v OKC thread. The OKC v Tulsa one is bad enough. My ______ is bigger than yours is unnecessary and a bore.

You know what we do need though? A San Antonio vs Charlotte discussion. Something tells me that thread could go on for a long, long time.

Let's not turn this into a SA v OKC thread. The OKC v Tulsa one is bad enough. My ______ is bigger than yours is unnecessary and a bore.

I don't think that's what occurring at all. There was a small duration were San Antonio was mentioned, but that has since passed.

You know what we do need though? A San Antonio vs Charlotte discussion. Something tells me that thread could go on for a long, long time.

No versus discussion is needed. Between any cities.

I wonder how many hotel rooms Charlotte has downtown. I bet it's more than San Antonio. If only there was someone on this board who could tell us about it. I don't think I can hear enough about those two cities.

I wonder how many hotel rooms Charlotte has downtown. I bet it's more than San Antonio. If only there was someone on this board who could tell us about it. I don't think I can hear enough about those two cities.

Not sure why you're trying to bait and stir the pot?

Let's not turn this into a SA v OKC thread. The OKC v Tulsa one is bad enough. My ______ is bigger than yours is unnecessary and a bore.there is no comparison. SA is the dominant city. I'm not sure whether or not you've kept up with the San Antonio thread, but their developments are light years ahead of anything we have here. It's laughable to compare OKC to SA at this time. SA competes with cities like Charlotte and Austin, not Oklahoma City. Anyone trying to compare the two are just trying to start arguments.

Not sure why you're trying to bait and stir the pot?

I don't know what you're talking about man. I am just very interested in those two cities. That's why I come to OKCTalk, to hear about those other places.


there is no comparison. SA is the dominant city. I'm not sure whether or not you've kept up with the San Antonio thread, but their developments are light years ahead of anything we have here. It's laughable to compare OKC to SA at this time. SA competes with cities like Charlotte and Austin, not Oklahoma City. Anyone trying to compare the two are just trying to start arguments.

And that's what I'm saying. If I could hear more about these two cities, and maybe Dallas too, on this board I'd be really happy. We really don't hear enough about them as it is.

I don't know what you're talking about man. I am just very interested in those two cities. That's why I come to OKCTalk, to hear about those other places.



And that's what I'm saying. If I could hear more about these two cities, and maybe Dallas too, on this board I'd be really happy. We really don't hear enough about them as it is.i will post more about Dallas but josh does a really good job about posting updates about new developments going to SA.

Maybe there should be an "Other cities" forum, because when I click on an OKC topic, I do it because I'm interested in OKC. If what happened with another city's convention center hotel is relevant, then well and good. But personally, I have no interest in Dallas, San Antonio, Omaha or Tulsa. It's nice when they have their own titled threads so I can skip them. That's all.

I totally agree with Betts. These threads about the hotel, 499 Sheridan, OG&E constantly move to the top of the page and I dutifully click, to see if any relevant news/analysis/opinion has been presented. More often than not, I'm disappointed as the conversation is either about other cities, or one sentence complaints about how everything should be "taller." Or even worse, how a stumble on something has led to hand-wringing and discussion about "moving to a city that gets it." When Pete, Spartan, Betts, Sid Burgess or a few others is the most recent poster, I still have hope.

I don't know what you're talking about man. I am just very interested in those two cities. That's why I come to OKCTalk, to hear about those other places.



And that's what I'm saying. If I could hear more about these two cities, and maybe Dallas too, on this board I'd be really happy. We really don't hear enough about them as it is.

I apologize. I misinterpreted your posts.

If you are interested in what's happening in San Antonio, I started this thread (http://www.okctalk.com/other-communities/35797-san-antonio-%7C-deep-heart-3.html)over a year ago detailing the city and metro areas. There is pictures of urban core areas as well as suburban areas. There's news updates on developments in both the urban core and suburbs.

It's 19 pages long now, so it's a lot of info. lol

I apologize. I misinterpreted your posts.

If you are interested in what's happening in San Antonio, I started this thread (http://www.okctalk.com/other-communities/35797-san-antonio-%7C-deep-heart-3.html)over a year ago detailing the city and metro areas. There is pictures of urban core areas as well as suburban areas. There's news updates on developments in both the urban core and suburbs.

It's 19 pages long now, so it's a lot of info. lol

All is good, josh. Please continue what you're doing.

Do all convention centers/hotels have their own parking garage? I've never driven to a convention in my life. I've always arrived by taxi, train or subway. Does that mean we're really expecting primarily in state and local meetings?

The San Diego convention center has a large underground garage and the three convention hotels nearby each have large structured parking garages.

Do all convention centers/hotels have their own parking garage? I've never driven to a convention in my life. I've always arrived by taxi, train or subway. Does that mean we're really expecting primarily in state and local meetings?

They all have a great amount of parking....Orlando, Chicago, Anaheim, Las Vegas, Dallas, ....

The only conventions I've driven to have been local ones or ones in Dallas. Anything elsewhere ends up involving a plane flight and a taxi ride. I suppose you could fly in and rent a car, but in hindsight the only convention spot that seems like a good idea for is Anaheim, all the others have been in the middle of a metro with lots of amenities in easy walking distance.

The Grand Hyatt convention center in San Antonio has five levels of underground parking built under it.

The McCormick Place convention center in Chicago is surrounded by 5800 spaces on 3 sides.

The only conventions I've driven to have been local ones or ones in Dallas. Anything elsewhere ends up involving a plane flight and a taxi ride. I suppose you could fly in and rent a car, but in hindsight the only convention spot that seems like a good idea for is Anaheim, all the others have been in the middle of a metro with lots of amenities in easy walking distance.Light rail now goes from DFW International to downtown within walking distance of the Convention Center.

It is a safe bet that every convention center in the US is surrounded by more parking than could ever be needed. With few exceptions most convention centers are used primarily by local residents and mass transit in the US is light-years behind the rest of the world. Here in Jax our convention center is served by the skyway but there aren't enough people living downtown to make not driving a viable alternative for enough people.

The QEII center in London doesn't have any parking at all. In fact, if you look at their website they give direction by train, tube, walking, bicycle, and bus, but when you get to the part about driving the recommend that you don't drive.

How to Find Us | The Queen Elizabeth II Centre (http://www.qeiicentre.london/contact-us/how-to-find-us)

Every dollar not spent on parking is one more dollar that can be put into the facility itself.

It is a safe bet that every convention center in the US is surrounded by more parking than could ever be needed. With few exceptions most convention centers are used primarily by local residents and mass transit in the US is light-years behind the rest of the world. Here in Jax our convention center is served by the skyway but there aren't enough people living downtown to make not driving a viable alternative for enough people.

The QEII center in London doesn't have any parking at all. In fact, if you look at their website they give direction by train, tube, walking, bicycle, and bus, but when you get to the part about driving the recommend that you don't drive.

How to Find Us | The Queen Elizabeth II Centre (http://www.qeiicentre.london/contact-us/how-to-find-us)

Every dollar not spent on parking is one more dollar that can be put into the facility itself.

Having actually exhibited in London multiple times, I can tell you that exhibitions are way different there and much more limited. They are much more limited in where they draw from and the exhibition culture is way different . If you are trying to in any way compare conventions in OKC with London that would be absurd. We need to deal with reality in OKC and not dogma and theoreticals based on cities and countries with which we share few similarities. We can imagine lots of utopian but unreal solutions for OKC. It is easy to hypothesize but hard to actually do something. Let's deal with OKC and what it needs.

I've driven to conventions in OKC, Kansas City and Dallas and rented cars for conventions in Orlando, Minneapolis and Detroit, in part for the freedom to do sightseeing away from the convention while I was at those places. The only convention I remember attending and not driving or renting a car for was in Seattle.

I could have taken a cab on some of those excursions but not for things like driving from Detroit to the Toledo Art Museum and back.

Let's take a moment and dispel this creeping false notion in this forum that convention centers - and specifically our convention center - are used nearly exclusively for locals. While it's important to understand that locals DO use a facility, I can tell you from extensive experience that downtown OKC already annually sees many meeting attendees from all over the state, the region, and even all over the U.S.. This with woefully inadequate facilities that are a complete convention sales liability.

OKC has a number of advantages over many similarly-sized and even many larger cities. First and foremost we have a large (and rapidly-growing) number of quality hotel rooms within a ten minute WALK of our facilities (the golden, make-or break rule). We have a huge (and rapidly-growing) concentration of quality dining and entertainment options within ten minute walking distance of our facilities (golden rule number 1b). Our downtown is (and even more importantly IS PERCEIVED BY VISITORS to be) safe, clean and easy-to-navigate. We are at a confluence of three major interstates, making us easy to drive to from anywhere in the region (creating a prime regional option). And while our connections by air and the related facilities are not perfect, they are at the very least adequate.

Additionally, we have an experienced, connected, well-funded and aggressive CVB staff. They are currently setting the national sports world on fire thanks to many of the issues I mention above, and also largely because they usually don't need quality convention facilities to do well. But those facilities would help us get even MORE sporting events, let alone traditional conferences and conventions.

The CVB already books events that we probably shouldn't even get considering the facilities we offer. If they can get someone to look past the current convention center on paper and get them here for a site visit they can almost always close some business, but too often it's a commitment to book when the new CC is complete.

Either way, the idea being trotted out here that our new CC will mostly only see local bookings is complete and utter nonsense. Ironic that it's a misinformation campaign has been fabricated to combat alleged puffery in projected convention booking numbers. Even if those numbers were overly optimistic, two wrongs don't make a right.

Great post, Chad.

I've made a reversal quite some time ago about the CC. Like it or not, it is something we need. Our current one is just a joke.

Let's take a moment and dispel this creeping false notion in this forum that convention centers - and specifically our convention center - are used nearly exclusively for locals. While it's important to understand that locals DO use a facility, I can tell you from extensive experience that downtown OKC already annually sees many meeting attendees from all over the state, the region, and even all over the U.S.. This with woefully inadequate facilities that are a complete convention sales liability.

OKC has a number of advantages over many similarly-sized and even many larger cities. First and foremost we have a large (and rapidly-growing) number of quality hotel rooms within a ten minute WALK of our facilities (the golden, make-or break rule). We have a huge (and rapidly-growing) concentration of quality dining and entertainment options within ten minute walking distance of our facilities (golden rule number 1b). Our downtown is (and even more importantly IS PERCEIVED BY VISITORS to be) safe, clean and easy-to-navigate. We are at a confluence of three major interstates, making us easy to drive to from anywhere in the region (creating a prime regional option). And while our connections by air and the related facilities are not perfect, they are at the very least adequate.

Additionally, we have an experienced, connected, well-funded and aggressive CVB staff. They are currently setting the national sports world on fire thanks to many of the issues I mention above, and also largely because they usually don't need quality convention facilities to do well. But those facilities would help us get even MORE sporting events, let alone traditional conferences and conventions.

The CVB already books events that we probably shouldn't even get considering the facilities we offer. If they can get someone to look past the current convention center on paper and get them here for a site visit they can almost always close some business, but too often it's a commitment to book when the new CC is complete.

Either way, the idea being trotted out here that our new CC will mostly only see local bookings is complete and utter nonsense. Ironic that it's a misinformation campaign has been fabricated to combat alleged puffery in projected convention booking numbers. Even if those numbers were overly optimistic, two wrongs don't make a right.

You are out of your mind if you think OKC's convention facilities are not dominated by locals.

Cox Convention Center :: Events (http://www.coxconventioncenter.com/events/all)

Great post, Chad.

I've made a reversal quite some time ago about the CC. Like it or not, it is something we need. Our current one is just a joke.

Is there actually anyone opposing the new convention center or the hotel?

Great post, Chad.

I've made a reversal quite some time ago about the CC. Like it or not, it is something we need. Our current one is just a joke.

Definitely 'something we need' when you compare us to regional cities we will compete with for conventions (Albuquerque, Fort Worth, Kanas City, Memphis, Tulsa, Wichita) which are available for us to lure. It will take facilities comparable to venues in those cities to attract reputable conventions.

The Cox Convention Center from the community needs assessment model receives a passing grade.

In-state/local conventions (gatherings) does little to bring new money into the local host city's coffers. Regional/National conventions circulate new 'out-of-state' money into the state and local (host) economy--this allows you to grow and increase your financial base.

Definitely 'something we need' when you compare us to regional cities we will compete with for conventions (Albuquerque, Fort Worth, Kanas City, Memphis, Tulsa, Wichita) which are available for us to lure. It will take facilities comparable to venues in those cities to attract reputable conventions.

The Cox Convention Center from the community needs assessment model receives a passing grade.

In-state/local conventions (gatherings) does little to bring new money into the local host city's coffers. Regional/National conventions circulate new 'out-of-state' money into the state and local (host) economy--this allows you to grow and increase your financial base.

We see this demonstrated by the 8 horse shows that come to Oklahoma City every year. They spend nearly 200 million dollars here annually. This is new money to our economy brought here from outside Oklahoma and left in our economy. There is a huge potential for a new convention center here.

Definitely 'something we need' when you compare us to regional cities we will compete with for conventions (Albuquerque, Fort Worth, Kanas City, Memphis, Tulsa, Wichita) which are available for us to lure. It will take facilities comparable to venues in those cities to attract reputable conventions.

The Cox Convention Center from the community needs assessment model receives a passing grade.

In-state/local conventions (gatherings) does little to bring new money into the local host city's coffers. Regional/National conventions circulate new 'out-of-state' money into the state and local (host) economy--this allows you to grow and increase your financial base.

If we want to bring new money into the City we can't compete with Albuquerque, Fort Worth, Kanas City, Memphis, or Wichita because they don't have enough out-of-state conventions either. Go look at the their convention center calendars. They are dominated by activities targeting local attendees also. That is like trying to steal stuff from someone just as a poor as us. We can't get rich that way. At best, we need to hope to grab a convention or two from the Tier 1 cities.

If we want to bring new money into the City we can't compete with Albuquerque, Fort Worth, Kanas City, Memphis, or Wichita because they don't have enough out-of-state conventions either. Go look at the their convention center calendars. They are dominated by activities targeting local attendees also. That is like trying to steal stuff from someone just as a poor as us. We can't get rich that way. At best, we need to hope to grab a convention or two from the Tier 1 cities.

I would say OKC should try to complete with cities that are a tier up like Indianapolis and Charlotte. This city will never be a Tier I convention city nor should it try to be, but I really think its geographic advantage should allow OKC to play with Tier II cities despite being so much smaller. Just think, OKC may one day be able to host one of the political conventions. A lot of people would say it can't happen but I think its a goal to shoot for.

If we want to bring new money into the City we can't compete with Albuquerque, Fort Worth, Kanas City, Memphis, or Wichita because they don't have enough out-of-state conventions either. Go look at the their convention center calendars. They are dominated by activities targeting local attendees also. That is like trying to steal stuff from someone just as a poor as us. We can't get rich that way. At best, we need to hope to grab a convention or two from the Tier 1 cities.

Agree,

We should eye something bigger; also we certainly can't do it with what we have now. It is important that we plan for the future...

A current calendar wouldn't be the only instrument you would want to use to gauge the conventions a city wants to lure; look at their current facilities compared to ours. Calendars change according to the event schedule; whereas facilities are relatively fixed.

We don't have anything comparable to what those cities possess to compete if we were to receive consideration for a reputable convention.

Fort Worth (25) and Kansas City (41) are the cities we need to exceed if we want to become a Top 50 convention meeting destination.

Especially, a convention preference where they want everything in one convention center & hotel complex. That is why it will be to our benefit to develop a large anchor hotel, one with at least a minimum of 735 rooms.

We need something in the vicinity closer to 1,000 rooms if we want to have an edge on those cities or grab a convention or two from cities like Atlanta (8), Dallas (9), New Orleans (10), San Antonio (13) or Denver (15).

Cvent's Top 50 Meeting Destinations in the United States | Cvent (http://www.cvent.com/en/sem/top-50-meeting-destinations-us-2012.shtml)

The danger with such a large hotel is that it is the same approach Walmart uses for parking lots - building for the once a year event. When you do that it creates a very high operating cost for the rest of the year. It is better to have conventions over-flow into other downtown hotels than operate at 50% capacity for the vast majority of the year.

The danger with such a large hotel is that it is the same approach Walmart uses for parking lots - building for the once a year event. When you do that it creates a very high operating cost for the rest of the year. It is better to have conventions over-flow into other downtown hotels than operate at 50% capacity for the vast majority of the year.

That is not why Walmart builds big parking lots.

Tons of studies show that with 80% of parking filled people are x less likely to stop and shop. Solution. Build bigger parking lots

If the city has a vision of wanting to become a significant convention city, it should build the facility to realize that vision. OKC would have never become an NBA city had it not built an arena capable of hosting the NBA or NHL in MAPS 1. I am sure plenty of people in the early 1990s that thought the arena in the Cox Center was good enough or would have accepted a much smaller arena.

If the city has a vision of wanting to become a significant convention city, it should build the facility to realize that vision.

Here is the little secret the Chamber didn't make public. Their own study says that a facility the size of what we are building is going to be a total failure. The study recommends a phase 2 that will double the size. OKC is going to have to build that second phase.

Here is the little secret the Chamber didn't make public. Their own study says that a facility the size of what we are building is going to be a total failure. The study recommends a phase 2 that will double the size. OKC is going to have to build that second phase.

JTF, do you have a link to that study from the OKC Chamber?

We have to make this work because we are probably not be given a second chance to make progress until MAPS V.

Again, build for the future. You can always close off floors not being used if the supply exceeds demand. If you have the rooms available to accommodate the larger Tier 1 type conventions; you don't have to take 18 months or longer to build a Phase II. A convention where blocks of 300-500 rooms will be needed could be scheduled if you have twice the room count available.

OKC's goal should be to build an anchor hotel that allows the city to become a Top 50 meeting destination. Make whatever concessions & incentives you need to make to get close to 1,000 rooms. You will receive better consideration if you avoid using neighboring hotels to accommodate the overflow. A Phase II could also cost you twice the amount it cost to build a Phase I starter of 500 rooms.

IIRC OKC is the only city without a luxury downtown Hyatt Regency among the regional cities listed (Albuquerque, Fort Worth, Kansas City, Memphis, Tulsa & Wichita).

If the city has a vision of wanting to become a significant convention city, it should build the facility to realize that vision. OKC would have never become an NBA city had it not built an arena capable of hosting the NBA or NHL in MAPS 1. I am sure plenty of people in the early 1990s that thought the arena in the Cox Center was good enough or would have accepted a much smaller arena.

This actually came up when we realize that we needed a six-month extension of the MAP 1 collections to finish the projects.


◾MAPS were funded by a temporary one-cent sales tax approved by city voters in December 1993. The tax was later extended by a vote of the people for six months to cover cost increases during construction and expired on July 1, 1999.

Oklahoma City - Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS) (http://www.redevelopmentreuse.com/projects/Oklahoma-City/35)

Consideration was given to scratch the Indoor Sports Arena (The Peake). The logic was that we weren't filling the 13,909-seat Myriad to warrant building a 19,599-seat arena. If we hadn't built the Peake, Louisville would have had that trial run with the New Orleans Hornets because they would have used 18,900 seat Freedom Hall. The Sonics' relocation would have never become a reality for OKC.

Here is the little secret the Chamber didn't make public. Their own study says that a facility the size of what we are building is going to be a total failure. The study recommends a phase 2 that will double the size. OKC is going to have to build that second phase.
Yes, we know...everything being done in OKC will always be a total failure. Everything done here is wrong.

Let's take a moment and dispel this creeping false notion in this forum that convention centers - and specifically our convention center - are used nearly exclusively for locals. While it's important to understand that locals DO use a facility, I can tell you from extensive experience that downtown OKC already annually sees many meeting attendees from all over the state, the region, and even all over the U.S.. This with woefully inadequate facilities that are a complete convention sales liability.

OKC has a number of advantages over many similarly-sized and even many larger cities. First and foremost we have a large (and rapidly-growing) number of quality hotel rooms within a ten minute WALK of our facilities (the golden, make-or break rule). We have a huge (and rapidly-growing) concentration of quality dining and entertainment options within ten minute walking distance of our facilities (golden rule number 1b). Our downtown is (and even more importantly IS PERCEIVED BY VISITORS to be) safe, clean and easy-to-navigate. We are at a confluence of three major interstates, making us easy to drive to from anywhere in the region (creating a prime regional option). And while our connections by air and the related facilities are not perfect, they are at the very least adequate.

Additionally, we have an experienced, connected, well-funded and aggressive CVB staff. They are currently setting the national sports world on fire thanks to many of the issues I mention above, and also largely because they usually don't need quality convention facilities to do well. But those facilities would help us get even MORE sporting events, let alone traditional conferences and conventions.

The CVB already books events that we probably shouldn't even get considering the facilities we offer. If they can get someone to look past the current convention center on paper and get them here for a site visit they can almost always close some business, but too often it's a commitment to book when the new CC is complete.

Either way, the idea being trotted out here that our new CC will mostly only see local bookings is complete and utter nonsense. Ironic that it's a misinformation campaign has been fabricated to combat alleged puffery in projected convention booking numbers. Even if those numbers were overly optimistic, two wrongs don't make a right.

How many national meetings do we host compared to local or state-wide meetings (that we would safely assume would already go to a revitalized OKC over Tulsa or..Lawton?)

Nobody is disputing A) we hold a lot of meetings and functions and B) we have become by far the state's best city for an event. The thing though is that we accomplish that by building a great city, and not just great convention facilities. A lot of our event-based success is from venues other than the convention center. We will interrupt an otherwise contiguous park down to the river and still won't gain many more conventions than we already have.

The problem with this debate is two-fold:
1. It is okay to admit that we need a new convention center to hold even. Don't oversell it.
2. We need to also focus on events in general, and building a great city that is desirable to people.

You are out of your mind if you think OKC's convention facilities are not dominated by locals.

Cox Convention Center :: Events (http://www.coxconventioncenter.com/events/all)
A gross mis-characterization and over-simplification of what I posted. Hardly a surprise.

JTF, do you have a link to that study from the OKC Chamber?


I don't have a link. The Chamber has not made it public. The study has three parts - Phase I, Phase II, and the hotel. The reason the Chamber didn't release it was because they knew if the total cost was presented all at once the public would never go for it, so they piecemealed it out. By getting phase I on the MAPS ballot they knew it would put the City on the hook to build the rest, and the City seemed more than happy to be on the hook for it.

Taxpayer support, hotel a must for Oklahoma City convention center, study says « Watchdog.org (http://watchdog.org/125098/oklahoma-city-convention-analysis-subsides/)

We opened the Myriad Convention Center in 1973 the same year the 26 story 600 room Oklahoma Biltmore Hotel closed; that left us with two hotels in operation downtown (Holiday Inn & the Tivoli Inn). Two years later, we only had one downtown hotel, 395 room Sheraton Century Center when it opened in 1975.

The hype about the potential of the Myriad Convention Center died from the lack of adequate hotel rooms to sustain any major conventions. By the time the city finally passed a 'bond issue' to build the Myriad, the few hotels we had in operation, DIED.

We lost the National Finals Rodeo in 1985, the NFR had outgrown the Myriad Convention Center (11,800 rodeo capacity).

We'll have Bricktown Entertainment, Bricktown Canal, Cable Car Transit along with a number of amenities to support the potential success of our new downtown convention center & hotel.

We're projected to open the new Oklahoma City Convention Center in 2019; let's not repeat our errors. Come 2020, we need to be ready with an anchor hotel (735-1000 rooms) available to handle some tier 1 type conventions.

Here is the little secret the Chamber didn't make public. Their own study says that a facility the size of what we are building is going to be a total failure. The study recommends a phase 2 that will double the size. OKC is going to have to build that second phase.

So, you have no source yet you still cry wolf? If you can provide proof(which you can't) then why should we take your word for it?
The negativity from you is astounding........

Here is the little secret the Chamber didn't make public. Their own study says that a facility the size of what we are building is going to be a total failure. The study recommends a phase 2 that will double the size. OKC is going to have to build that second phase.

That's quite an accusation, Kerry, Prove it. Prove it's more than just made up to advance your agenda. There is a second phase planned going forward but when did looking beyond the current plan become nefarious? It sure worked out well with the arena...

"Here is the little secret the Chamber didn't make public. Their own study says that a facility the size of what we are building is going to be a total failure."

I think you just made that up, Kerry. Prove you didn't...