[QUOTE=kelroy55;719972]So Jesus created

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So Is Jesus God ? Why yes he is He's God the Son.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So Is Jesus God?
Why yes he is He's God the Son.
Jesus is God. Jesus is the Son. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

http://i.imgur.com/jtk4VKI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jtk4VKI.jpg

That's funny. Not theologically correct in any way, just plain funny.

http://i.imgur.com/jtk4VKI.jpg


And then went back to heaven to sit at the right hand of...myself... while staying on Earth at the same time as a massive omniscient Ghost.

5492

Jesus is God. Jesus is the Son. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
And this is backed by science?

Not made, allowed.

So god allowed someone to set down an f5 tornado that killed people? Who is it he allowed to do such a thing?

So god allowed someone to set down an f5 tornado that killed people? Who is it he allowed to do such a thing?
No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. It was part of the plan or his will.
Not sure which I get them confused. This way when you have people that survives while all of their loved ones die...Ta da! Miracle. Now you owe Him one.

So why exactly is it ok to mock and denigrate what other people believe? I already stated I didn't want Prunepicker and Garin representing me, but they are entitled to what they believe. Those of you who don't believe didn't like it when they laid down statements of faith and expected you to accept it.

Having this kind of "dialogue" serves no one and will only make it more and more difficult for science and religion to have any kind of communication. We need the two to be able to have open and respectful dialogue, not become involved in mockery and outright rejection. I'm a professing Christian; I believe that Christ is the Son of God and died to redeem me of my sins. I also believe the Earth is 4.6 billion years and don't find the Big Bang Theory and God mutually exclusive. Am I worthy of your mockery? What exactly does that do to further anything constructive?

I'm not going to preach to you about my faith. I'm still very "new" in my understandings. I'd be happy to have discussions with anyone over PM should they wish. But I also don't think it is acceptable to constantly mock Christians and those of other religions. Maturity would be nice. /rant over

Well to be fair if the two mentioned posters would have framed their arguments in your manner they probably wouldn't be catching the crap that they do.
-they didn't frame their beliefs as statements of faith, they stated it be scientifically proven.
-one of these posters is the flagship for intolerance towards others beliefs so yeah others get a bit testy back.
-I haven't seen anyone mocking any of your statements or beliefs because you avoid my first two points.
-these two aren't really being mocked for being Christians either. Go back and reread the discussion between Sid & PP. That is the source of the mockery.

Well to be fair if the two mentioned posters would have framed their arguments in your manner they probably wouldn't be catching the crap that they do.
-they didn't frame their beliefs as statements of faith, they stated it be scientifically proven.
-one of these posters is the flagship for intolerance towards others beliefs so yeah others get a bit testy back.
-I haven't seen anyone mocking any of your statements or beliefs because you avoid my first two points.
-these two aren't really being mocked for being Christians either. Go back and reread the discussion between Sid & PP. That is the source of the mockery.

Hard to argue with much of anything you said. However, there has been plenty of mockery of the nature of the Trinity, F5 tornadoes, and the like. I'm well aware that those two can be extremely difficult to digest (I'm trying so hard work on being nice); mock them all you want. That doesn't bother me in the least.

Hard to argue with much of anything you said. However, there has been plenty of mockery of the nature of the Trinity, F5 tornadoes, and the like. I'm well aware that those two can be extremely difficult to digest (I'm trying so hard work on being nice); mock them all you want. That doesn't bother me in the least.

I use f5 tornadoes to mock religious leaders who claim that disasters are punishment for current events and social movements. I'll clarify, but not apologize, because some beliefs are worthy of mockery. If someone said the earth was flat, that is worthy of being challenged, as are racial prejudices and a whole range of beliefs. We judge people every day for their beliefs and actions. Having faith is fine, and I encourage it if that fits your worldview, I just don't want creation myths being taught in science class or self-authenticating religious texts being taught as infallible history.

I use f5 tornadoes to mock religious leaders who claim that disasters are punishment for current events and social movements. I'll clarify, but not apologize, because some beliefs are worthy of mockery. If someone said the earth was flat, that is worthy of being challenged, as are racial prejudices and a whole range of beliefs. We judge people every day for their beliefs and actions. Having faith is fine, and I encourage it if that fits your worldview, I just don't want creation myths being taught in science class or self-authenticating religious texts being taught as infallible history.

I understand and agree completely. I'm an historian. I wouldn't use the Bible as a source beyond contestation by any means. I obviously don't follow the literalist tradition given my previous statement on creationism.

And this is backed by science?
Science hasn't reached that level of intelligence. Maybe someday.

Next.

So god allowed someone to set down an f5 tornado that killed people?
Who is it he allowed to do such a thing?
Yes.

Who is it? What are you talking about?

So why exactly is it ok to mock and denigrate what other people believe?
I already stated I didn't want Prunepicker and Garin representing me...
It's not okay to denigrate people. That's something I won't do. I have
no idea why you wouldn't want me to represent you. I refuse to speak
for Garin.

... there has been plenty of mockery of the nature of the Trinity, F5
tornadoes, and the like. I'm well aware that those two can be extremely
difficult to digest (I'm trying so hard work on being nice); mock them all
you want. That doesn't bother me in the least.
Once again, I won't speak for Garin. What's difficult to digest? Seriously.
It appears to me that you want to satisfy the naysayers and not your
Faith.

As far as mocking goes, that's all they have to go on. Since they can't
deny my Faith or the existence of God that's all they can do. Logic
and reason need not apply. Just hate and make fun of us.

Are you falling for the ad populum appeal. It looks like you are.

... if that fits your worldview...
That's exactly what you're doing. You refuse to accept it so you reject
it. That's not very scientific. In fact, it's not scientific at all.

I use f5 tornadoes to mock religious leaders who claim that disasters are
punishment for current events and social movements.
You can count me out of that crowd. I don't subscribe to it. Not at all.

Wait! You already know that. Nevermind.

That's exactly what you're doing. You refuse to accept it so you reject
it. That's not very scientific. In fact, it's not scientific at all.

I reject anything that isn't evidence based, or at least put it on hold. I reject arguments based on faith alone.

... I just don't want creation myths being taught in science class or
self-authenticating religious texts being taught as infallible history.
This is where you leave science and hope for your biases.

Please tell how creation came about. Try to do it in a logical and
reasoned method instead of the usual belittling and demeaning manner
that you've been using. I'll await your answer.

I understand and agree completely. I'm an historian. I wouldn't use the Bible as a source beyond contestation by any means. I obviously don't follow the literalist tradition given my previous statement on creationism.

Brett...I completely respect your position. I totally understand your position and share a few of the same thoughts. Everything in life is balance and it is only natural we want to keep learning. The concern arrives when we start shutting down an open mind to alternate ways of thinking. Don't let the snake get under your skin as you now appear to be a target. It's their S. O. P. which is well known on this board. It is always entertaining that the burden of proof is ALWAYS on someone else and they refuse to take responsibility for their own comments and provide the support for their statements. It's always "you are biased", "you aren't providing any evidence" or other similar statements.

So thank you for your comments and I appreciate and support your position. I think most reasonable and mature people in this conversation feel the same way.

... So thank you for your comments and I appreciate and support your
position. I think most reasonable and mature people in this conversation
feel the same way.
It would be very cool if you could bolster your support with science, not
that you can. But it would be cool.

I'll await your non answer. LOL Too bad that logic and reason don't
support your unscientific thoughts.

It would be very cool if you could bolster your support with science, not
that you can. But it would be cool.

I'll await your non answer. LOL Too bad that logic and reason don't
support your unscientific thoughts.

It would be very cool if you could bolster your science (belief in the holy trinity) with support (physical evidence), not
that you can. But it would be cool.

It would be very cool if you could bolster your science (belief in the holy
trinity) with support (physical evidence), not that you can. But it would
be cool.
What are you talking about? I already have. You're mistaken and you
have no evidence to the contrary. Venture is very good at not supporting
his claims. In fact they rarely involve science, logic or reason. He's very
much an ad populum type of person.

You and I both know that.

What are you talking about? I already have. You're mistaken and you
have no evidence to the contrary. Venture is very good at not supporting
his claims. In fact they rarely involve science, logic or reason. He's very
much an ad populum type of person.

You and I both know that.

Plain and simple Prunepicker, do you really believe the earth is only 6 to 10,000 years old?

This thread totally derailed a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time ago.

I've been told Prunepicker is a very nice guy. I have not had the pleasure of meeting him. But part of me wonders if his role here is to remind us all of our relative sanity.

So why exactly is it ok to mock and denigrate what other people believe? I already stated I didn't want Prunepicker and Garin representing me, but they are entitled to what they believe. Those of you who don't believe didn't like it when they laid down statements of faith and expected you to accept it.

Having this kind of "dialogue" serves no one and will only make it more and more difficult for science and religion to have any kind of communication. We need the two to be able to have open and respectful dialogue, not become involved in mockery and outright rejection. I'm a professing Christian; I believe that Christ is the Son of God and died to redeem me of my sins. I also believe the Earth is 4.6 billion years and don't find the Big Bang Theory and God mutually exclusive. Am I worthy of your mockery? What exactly does that do to further anything constructive?

I'm not going to preach to you about my faith. I'm still very "new" in my understandings. I'd be happy to have discussions with anyone over PM should they wish. But I also don't think it is acceptable to constantly mock Christians and those of other religions. Maturity would be nice. /rant over

Wait a second......... So asking a completely legit question is now mocking? Maybe you can answer for me since pp dodged the question. People will say god made the beautiful morning, but won't say he made the f5 tornado that kills people? Why is that?

Wait a second......... So asking a completely legit question is now mocking? Maybe you can answer for me since pp dodged the question. People will say god made the beautiful morning, but won't say he made the f5 tornado that kills people? Why is that?

I'll happily dodge the question, too, as I doubt its anything more than a fishing expedition for more ammunition. If you really wish to become educated about the nature of God, don't go to a chat forum. Study a well-reviewed text or discuss it with a reasonable, educated person in person, instead. If you wish to see the Old Testament Christian exposition of the concept, read the book of Job.

This is the best thread ever. Either Prune is getting the biggest beat down of all time, or he is the best troll of all time. Either way, good stuff!

This is the best thread ever. Either Prune is getting the biggest beat down of all time, or he is the best troll of all time. Either way, good stuff!

You are wrong. You have no proof of this beat down or any trolling activity. There is no thread. The US troops have not entered Baghdad...

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

;)

Seriously?

Age of the Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth)

/thread.

Plain and simple Prunepicker, do you really believe the earth is only 6 to 10,000 years old?

This thread totally derailed a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time ago.

You won't get a straight answer if you get one at all.

I've been told Prunepicker is a very nice guy. I have not had the pleasure of meeting him. But part of me wonders if his role here is to remind us all of our relative sanity.

He is definitely a very nice guy, I can attest to that, as we were both at one of the meet-ups.

You won't get a straight answer if you get one at all.

What is an answer? Do you have proof to back up your claim that there is such a thing? No you don't. You are just making it up. Your bias for believing in this answers is clear. Come back when you have proof.

I'll happily dodge the question, too, as I doubt its anything more than a fishing expedition for more ammunition. If you really wish to become educated about the nature of God, don't go to a chat forum. Study a well-reviewed text or discuss it with a reasonable, educated person in person, instead. If you wish to see the Old Testament Christian exposition of the concept, read the book of Job.

Lol. Ammunition? really? It's a very straight foreword question. It's sad how Christians always feel like the victims. Always mistreated and defensive.

About the article in the original post. It's not told what method was
used, only that it's new.

Seriously?

Age of the Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth)

/thread.

That's not enough proof for Prune. You need to build a time machine and take him back billions of years and let him witness the formation of the earth. Until then, God made the heavens and the earth and there is nothing you can show him that will change his mind.

That's not enough proof for Prune...
Ya gotta love personal attacks. They bring intelligent discourse to
a different level.

Turning the tables just a little bit, I don't have any more problem believing in the three persons/one god thing, despite the lack of any physical evidence, than I do believing there are 27 separate dimensions that we cannot measure or observe just so that they can get the math to work properly on string theory. Dark matter is the name we have given to why our measurements of the mass of the universe are not correct.

I think mocking someone because they believe something that cannot be observed or proven, and then basing your own worldview on other factors that cannot be observed or proven shows a distinct lack of self-awareness.

Turning the tables just a little bit, I don't have any more problem believing in the three persons/one god thing, despite the lack of any physical evidence, than I do believing there are 27 separate dimensions that we cannot measure or observe just so that they can get the math to work properly on string theory. Dark matter is the name we have given to why our measurements of the mass of the universe are not correct.

I think mocking someone because they believe something that cannot be observed or proven, and then basing your own worldview on other factors that cannot be observed or proven shows a distinct lack of self-awareness.

I think mocking them is just fine when all of science disagrees with them.

--keep in mind we know the differences of dogma vs. science. If science could prove right now that the Earth is 6,000 years old and Jesus Christ rode around on pterodactyls, whoever published that paper would be peer reviewed and then get to cash their Nobel Prize check.

Why does God allow babies to be murdered?
Why does God send people to Hell even if they've NEVER had exposure to Christianity of any kind, like remote tribes in the Amazon?

Why does God allow babies to be murdered?
Why does God send people to Hell even if they've NEVER had exposure to Christianity of any kind, like remote tribes in the Amazon?

How do you know if they went to hell or not?

I think mocking them is just fine when all of science disagrees with them.

--keep in mind we know the differences of dogma vs. science. If science could prove right now that the Earth is 6,000 years old and Jesus Christ rode around on pterodactyls, whoever published that paper would be peer reviewed and then get to cash their Nobel Prize check.

Who out numbers who? Those that believe in a creator or those that believe only in science? The later is a very small minority in this discussion.

How do you know if they went to hell or not?

They didn't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Who out numbers who? Those that believe in a creator or those that believe only in science? The later is a very small minority in this discussion.

Likely because this state is religiously conservative. Have this argument in New York or Europe and the "popularity" will reverse. Arguing that an idea is correct because it's popular is foolish, a great many ideas weren't popular at first but proven correct eventually. People hold on to bad ideas long after they've outlived their usefulness.

They didn't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

So they are going to hell because they've never heard of Jesus? Sure glad god loves them.

Lol. Ammunition? really? It's a very straight foreword question. It's sad how Christians always feel like the victims. Always mistreated and defensive.

So you're saying you'd go to OKC Talk and ask honest questions for spiritual or philosophical advice, medical advice, legal advice and / or financial advice? I'd say a genuinely interested person in answers about any of those topic should find their way to a book store or professional.
I'm no victim, by the way. Just not interested in jumping into an argument that is clearly unwinnable (from either side).
It's sad how so many haters can't resist the chance to mock those they don't agree with. Always obstreperous, aggressive and closed-minded.

It's sad how so many haters can't resist the chance to mock those they don't agree with. Always obstreperous, aggressive and closed-minded.

To believe in something you can't see, smell, touch, hear, or taste in my opinion requires the most open mind of all. Prove it - they say. We can't prove it, that is why it is called faith. Funny how those who preach open-mindedness have no actual interest in doing it themselves.

We can't measure speed without comparing it to something at a different speed, but that doesn't mean we aren't moving (at least according to Einstein's 1st postulate). In other words, we can't prove God exists while being in a world where God exists.

And with those comments in mind, I will bow back out of the unwinnable debate.

[QUOTE=Chadanth;721168]Likely because this state is religiously conservative. Have this argument in New York or Europe and the "popularity" will reverse. Arguing that an idea is correct because it's popular is foolish, a great many ideas weren't popular at first but proven correct eventually. People hold on to bad ideas long after they've outlived their usefulness

Wrong answer! Christians and Muslims both believe in a creator " God" so I'm pretty sure the science community is the small minority.

Likely because this state is religiously conservative. Have this argument in New York or Europe and the "popularity" will reverse. Arguing that an idea is correct because it's popular is foolish, a great many ideas weren't popular at first but proven correct eventually. People hold on to bad ideas long after they've outlived their usefulness

Wrong answer! Christians and Muslims both believe in a creator " God" so I'm pretty sure the science community is the small minority.

I think its wrong to say that you must be either a faith believer OR a science guy. Sure, there are those who are one OR the other, but I'll bet that there are boat loads of those who have a faith in a creator and believe that science is a worthwhile pursuit. The scientific method is always a good method to use in many pursuits, in fact.

[QUOTE=Chadanth;721168]Likely because this state is religiously conservative. Have this argument in New York or Europe and the "popularity" will reverse. Arguing that an idea is correct because it's popular is foolish, a great many ideas weren't popular at first but proven correct eventually. People hold on to bad ideas long after they've outlived their usefulness

Wrong answer! Christians and Muslims both believe in a creator " God" so I'm pretty sure the science community is the small minority.

Again, incorrect.

Evolution Less Accepted in U.S. Than Other Western Countries, Study Finds (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060810-evolution.html)

Why doesn't America believe in evolution? - life - 20 August 2006 - New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9786-why-doesnt-america-believe-in-evolution.html)

I can find dozens more, though it's a waste of time. I also didn't mention Muslims, not that you would probably consider them progressive or anything; I cited Europe and New York (just as an example of a state that isn't in the bottom 5 in education). Again. the US is pretty far behind in this, compared to Europe and Japan. And we wonder why we're lagging in science and research... I'm sure it has nothing to do with backwards attitudes toward science being pushed here.

I think its wrong to say that you must be either a faith believer OR a science guy. Sure, there are those who are one OR the other, but I'll bet that there are boat loads of those who have a faith in a creator and believe that science is a worthwhile pursuit. The scientific method is always a good method to use in many pursuits, in fact.

Even the catholic church has said that they don't consider evolution and faith to be exclusive. They're not teaching young earth literalism.

Even the catholic church has said that they don't consider evolution and faith to be exclusive. They're not teaching young earth literalism.

That's the thing I find most interesting. I had a Catholic education from pre-school through 12th grade. Science class taught evolution. We then had religion/theology class for creationism among other topics. There definitely wasn't this significant divide or push to have one taught over the other. My biology teacher freshman year was even a devout Jesuit priest for decades and never uttered creationism once.

People always claim private education is better than a public school. In my experience, the private experience was void of all this BS you see being forced into public education. It is sad when schools ran by the diocese and Jesuits understand the importance of not trying to trump one over the other, but elected nutjobs feel a non-religious institution must include religious-based teaching.

So you're saying you'd go to OKC Talk and ask honest questions for spiritual or philosophical advice, medical advice, legal advice and / or financial advice? I'd say a genuinely interested person in answers about any of those topic should find their way to a book store or professional.
I'm no victim, by the way. Just not interested in jumping into an argument that is clearly unwinnable (from either side).
It's sad how so many haters can't resist the chance to mock those they don't agree with. Always obstreperous, aggressive and closed-minded.

Holy crap man, what in the hell are you talking about? I simply ask the believers a question. Are we not allowed to ask a question here at okctalk? Again, do you believe god created f5 tornadoes that produce death and destruction or does he only create the good things?

I think its wrong to say that you must be either a faith believer OR a science guy. Sure, there are those who are one OR the other, but I'll bet that there are boat loads of those who have a faith in a creator and believe that science is a worthwhile pursuit. The scientific method is always a good method to use in many pursuits, in fact.

I'm a firm believer you can have both. I have faith there's something out there that's greater than us but I don't believe it's one all powerful being that tossed down 10 rules for us to follow and flooded the earth. I think a lot of early religion was started to keep the uneducated masses in line. If you think about it God's got a great gig going on. If things are good it's God's blessing and if bad things happen it's God's Will. Why are there all these million dollar churches when Jesus preached against that kind of wealth? oh yeah, God's Will they have a multi million dollar church and salary for the preacher. I also see a lot of people using the Bible as set in stone on issues like being gay but ignore all the other parts they don't want to bring up because it goes against what they are doing.

I'll keep my faith but I choose to put most of it into science.

Holy crap man, what in the hell are you talking about? I simply ask the believers a question. Are we not allowed to ask a question here at okctalk? Again, do you believe god created f5 tornadoes that produce death and destruction or does he only create the good things?

I'm not sure about your question. Are you asking if God specifically made the tornadoes that hit Moore, or if the laws of nature created by God conspired to form the tornadoes that killed people in Moore?

I'm not sure about your question. Are you asking if God specifically made the tornadoes that hit Moore, or if the laws of nature created by God conspired to form the tornadoes that killed people in Moore?

If God is all powerful and knowing aren't those two the same? He/she knew they were forming and going to kill people didn't he/she?

I'm not sure about your question. Are you asking if God specifically made the tornadoes that hit Moore, or if the laws of nature created by God conspired to form the tornadoes that killed people in Moore?

Did he create the tornado that hit Moore like he created the nice beautiful weather on other days?