Its obvious different people have different ideas of what kind of urban districts they would like to see. Good news is there are enough districts each one can have their own flavor. They don't have to all be the same. Nobody is right or wrong for wanting one type of district or the other. This isn't section 8 though so we can end the battle over the ethics of wanting or not wanting to live next door to that type of development. When a developer or the city talks about wanting to build a Cabrini Green in a location like this, then we can have the debate.

This isn't section 8 though so we can end the battle over the ethics of wanting or not wanting to live next door to that type of development.

Now let's bitch about living next to old people and their funny mothball smell.

Now let's bitch about living next to old people and their funny mothball smell.

The struggle is real.

Ha not funny and won't be happening. There is a very tight lid on development in Midtown..

It's a joke. HH residents voiced concern there would be "sex shops" going into the retail spaces in The Edge. We've been lampooning them ever since. OKCTalk inside joke.

Midtown senior housing project proceeds | News OK (http://newsok.com/midtown-senior-housing-project-proceeds/article/3915834)

From Steve's article:


Ward 6 Councilwoman Meg Salyer, who represents the neighborhoods, urged fellow council members to oppose the tax credits, saying she had not heard from one resident in favor of the project.

Ward 2 Councilman Ed Shadid challenged Salyer and the Heritage Hills residents, saying he spoke to representatives of the nearby Unitarian Church who expressed excitement at the possibility of interacting with the senior residents.

“We're either densifying the core or we're not,” Shadid said. “We're bringing a streetcar to the area. So is the threshold that if a certain number of neighbors oppose a project, we will abide by that? Is that the policy we're now setting?”

Four other council members, James Greiner, Pete White, David Greenwell and Pat Ryan, sided with Shadid, while Mayor Mick Cornett, and council members Larry McAtee and John Pettis sided with Salyer.

Wow, Meg Salyer and Mayor Mick were against this?

Good grief, it's a FOUR story building and is replacing a three story structure, yet the HH neighbors -- including Marva Ellard -- are saying it's too tall (among other things)?

Keep in mind, Heritage Hills is on the other side of 13th with a buffer of commercial on the north side of that street.

This looks like a great project to me, especially if they use quality building materials. That's really my only concern. I'm surprised people are against this. Who votes against grandma?

From Steve's article:



Wow, Meg Salyer and Mayor Mick were against this?

Good grief, it's a FOUR story building and is replacing a three story structure, yet the HH neighbors -- including Marva Ellard -- are saying it's too tall (among other things)?

Keep in mind, Heritage Hills is on the other side of 13th with a buffer of commercial on the north side of that street.

Yeah I get Meg Salyer voting against it since her office has been swamped by "Nay" voices, but why Mick? Why McAtee and Pettis?

I'm more interested in why Marva's against it. She is the opposite of an unreasonable person, and not bound by the whims of constituents.

Now let's bitch about living next to old people and their funny mothball smell.

Living next to old people has it's awesome points. My mom's neighborhood in Philly was pretty great until all the old people that kept an eye on everything started dying off. Now there are murders in cars across the street. Coincidence? Maybe. But, I like to think not.

I'm more interested in why Marva's against it. She is the opposite of an unreasonable person, and not bound by the whims of constituents.

Maybe because she's vying for the Villa Teresa property and wants this corner too?

Keep in mind, Heritage Hills is on the other side of 13th with a buffer of commercial on the north side of that street.

Yeah, I've never understood why HH is so intent on stopping developments south of 13th. It doesn't really affect their neighborhood at all.

Keep in mind, Heritage Hills is on the other side of 13th with a buffer of commercial on the north side of that street.

Let's also not forget that there is the street itself. A four lane 35 MPH road that I personally call "the downtown expressway" because it has the fastest speed limit downtown. HH has PLENTY of buffer from us insufferables.

It's pretty clear the HH establishment is going to fight any and all development anywhere near it's enclave.

They are fighting the live music venue on the other side of 23rd and you can bet they will do the same with Guyutes.

And of course, they fought the Edge.

This site plan is a big no-go. As posted above, I don't understand why anyone with a history of arguing for urban design would approve of this. Why is it so hard for OKC architectural community to incorporate universal urban design characteristics - they are overly simple.

1) no surface parking lots at intersection
2) Mass the building at the intersection

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/RH_zpsc44c71d7.jpg

As seen from the street...

http://www.madisonpreservation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Commercial-Hamilton-S-111-Jackman-Bldg-a.jpg

I have to agree that this site plan leaves a lot to be desired. But that can be discussed when this goes in front of urban design.

As for the project, I think it's a worthy effort to provide affordable senior housing in this area. Midtown should be a real neighborhood, not just a playground for young yuppies (not saying that it is, because it is not).

Actually, if they are ambulatory and active, they could add a surprisingly different vibrancy to the street. Too much sameness is the enemy of a good urban neighborhood. Agree that the site design could be better, though I understand that they were probably trying to emulate the Viila Theresa buildings next door, which were originally (large) single family dwellings that relate to the street like, well, single family dwellings of the era.

The thing that makes this property different is the fact that it is at the intersection, and special care should be given regarding how it interacts. JTF is right; putting a parking lot at the intersection blows.

I have to agree that this site plan leaves a lot to be desired. But that can be discussed when this goes in front of urban design.

As for the project, I think it's a worthy effort to provide affordable senior housing in this area. Midtown should be a real neighborhood, not just a playground for young yuppies (not saying that it is, because it is not).

Personally, I don't really care for the housing of people by income and age. I think it is important for people to interact with each other. Instead of this organization spending millions to build their own facility, I would prefer they use that money to either buy or pay the rent in any of the numerous other downtown housing developments. The same goes for housing for the poor.

Pete, not every HH resident is against these projects. I will post more on this later, but what happens is that some vocal residents speak up at certain meetings or write letters or emails that subsequently get posted here or elsewhere and these individuals appear to be speaking for the entire neighborhood or for the neighborhood association when this is not the case. I personally have gone to City Council meetings a number of times to speak up in favor of certain projects. I spoke at the recent meeting where the streetcar route was voted on. And I spoke at the meeting where the Council approved The Edge. I was FOR the project and Steve quoted me in his article the next day. I went on record as being a resident of HH and being in favor of the project. I am also on the board of HPI and can say that not everyone on the board agrees that development along 23rd and 13th is bad and that there is a sizable number of board members (and residents of the neighborhood) who want to see the areas bordering HH thrive and flourish. Our neighborhood was born as an urban one surrounded by business districts and that's the historical nature of our neighborhood, no matter what any one individual says.

Here's the article in which I was quoted: MidTown housing development wins approval from design committee | Phillips Murrah, PC (http://www.phillipsmurrah.com/articles/2012/01/20/midtown-housing-development-wins-approval-design-committee). I couldn't find it on the NewsOk archive but for some reason it was posted to the Phillips Murrah website.


It's pretty clear the HH establishment is going to fight any and all development anywhere near it's enclave.

They are fighting the live music venue on the other side of 23rd and you can bet they will do the same with Guyutes.

And of course, they fought the Edge.

^

Thanks so much for that perspective.

However, Meg Salyer doesn't seem to be getting your message, especially since she spear-headed opposition in the City Council:


Ward 6 Councilwoman Meg Salyer, who represents the neighborhoods, urged fellow council members to oppose the tax credits, saying she had not heard from one resident in favor of the project.

You got it!

Maybe because she's vying for the Villa Teresa property and wants this corner too?

Absolutely not. Her concern is the building is too big for the property, it's at what they say is a dangerous intersection. They'd love to see it across the street on the old Myriad Motor Inn property.

Pete, not every HH resident is against these projects. I will post more on this later, but what happens is that some vocal residents speak up at certain meetings or write letters or emails that subsequently get posted here or elsewhere and these individuals appear to be speaking for the entire neighborhood or for the neighborhood association when this is not the case. I personally have gone to City Council meetings a number of times to speak up in favor of certain projects. I spoke at the recent meeting where the streetcar route was voted on. And I spoke at the meeting where the Council approved The Edge. I was FOR the project and Steve quoted me in his article the next day. I went on record as being a resident of HH and being in favor of the project. I am also on the board of HPI and can say that not everyone on the board agrees that development along 23rd and 13th is bad and that there is a sizable number of board members (and residents of the neighborhood) who want to see the areas bordering HH thrive and flourish. Our neighborhood was born as an urban one surrounded by business districts and that's the historical nature of our neighborhood, no matter what any one individual says.

Here's the article in which I was quoted: MidTown housing development wins approval from design committee | Phillips Murrah, PC (http://www.phillipsmurrah.com/articles/2012/01/20/midtown-housing-development-wins-approval-design-committee). I couldn't find it on the NewsOk archive but for some reason it was posted to the Phillips Murrah website.

I apologize for not thinking to call you on this. If there is more debate, let's visit.

Absolutely not. Her concern is the building is too big for the property, it's at what they say is a dangerous intersection. They'd love to see it across the street on the old Myriad Motor Inn property.

Thanks for clarifying Steve. Had no idea, was just throwing that out there. Have since read your article.

^

Thanks so much for that perspective.

However, Meg Salyer doesn't seem to be getting your message, especially since she spear-headed opposition in the City Council:

Well, by "these projects" I meant projects that border HH. I didn't contact Meg on this one. Maybe I should have, but honestly it seemed so innocuous to me that I didn't think to do so.

But folks on OKCTalk seem to think that all HH residents oppose good development. This is not the case. This is a misperception created by some vocal residents. An example is the recent email from the Associate Board that went out regarding the proposed music venue on 23rd. The Associate Board is not the Heritage Hills neighorbood association board. It is something like the social committee inside the full board, which is called HPI (Historic Preservation, Inc.). The Associate Board organizes the annual HH home tour, for example. But that email from the Associate Board was not authorized by the HPI board. Someone on the Associate Board just wrote it and sent it out, without asking anybody. And of course because it came from the "Heritage Hills Associate Board" it appears to have the full authority of the official neighborhood board. It does not.

Pete, let's talk.

Well, by "these projects" I meant projects that border HH. I didn't contact Meg on this one. Maybe I should have, but honestly it seemed so innocuous to me that I didn't think to do so.

But folks on OKCTalk seem to think that all HH residents oppose good development. This is not the case. This is a misperception created by some vocal residents. An example is the recent email from the Associate Board that went out regarding the proposed music venue on 23rd. The Associate Board is a not the Heritage Hills neighorbood association board. Is is something like the social committee inside the full board, which is called HPI (Historic Preservation, Inc.). The Associate Board organizes the annual HH home tour, for example. But that email from the Associate Board was not authorized by the HPI board. Someone on the Associate Board just wrote it and sent it out, without asking anybody. And of course because it came from the "Heritage Hills Associate Board" it appears to have the full authority of the official neighborhood board. It does not.

Pete, let's talk.

Thanks for clarifying this. As a resident of Mesta Park, I was beginning to wonder why the opinion skewed so much on the other side of the street. Glad to know it is the opinion of the few (or one) and not of the many.

Thanks for clarifying this. As a resident of Mesta Park, I was beginning to wonder why the opinion skewed so much on the other side of the street. Glad to know it is the opinion of the few (or one) and not of the many.

Musg8411, you bet. My pleasure!

Thanks for clarifying this. As a resident of Mesta Park, I was beginning to wonder why the opinion skewed so much on the other side of the street. Glad to know it is the opinion of the few (or one) and not of the many.

Musg8411, you bet. My pleasure!

I apologize for not thinking to call you on this. If there is more debate, let's visit.

Steve, I guess you forgot that you are on vacation. :D

With everyone so up in arms about poor people living in Midtown, I think we are missing the true point here.

Old people!

Old people are going to ruin the dynamic of this young and vibrant area of town!

There has to be some ordinance against it!

Someone DO SOMETHING!



I only joke, I like old people.

Steve, I guess you forgot that you are on vacation. :D

Yeah, I'll fix that.

New rendering and site plan for this project, now officially named Classen Commons:



http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/8600d1405008422-classen-commons-clcommons1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/8601d1405008422-classen-commons-clcommons2.jpg

Looks like they followed JTF's advice. Very nice site plan!

I like this site plan much better than the previous where all the parking was facing 13th. I think it will fit in well with the neighborhood. Think HH/MP people are going to be against it?

Think HH/MP people are going to be against it?

I don't know how they could be.

So yeah, probably.

I imagine most of them won't mind it a bit. However I fully expect to hear from the small minority who have been very vocal on previous projects.

I imagine most of them won't mind it a bit. However I fully expect to hear from the small minority who have been very vocal on previous projects.

Yes I'm sure there will be a handful of complainers that like to complain. As we found with the former sunbeam home housing proposal... some people will complain about anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like it.

Here's a plan of the ground level:

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/8602d1405009907-classen-commons-clcommons3.jpg

My friend works on this!

Amazing improvement!

This is a much much better site plan! I'm so glad they moved the parking off of the intersection to the back. Maybe, as Sid says they should edge things closer to the sidewalk. On the other hand nothing on that block fronts the sidewalk. The Villa Theresa campus is set back quite a ways, as are all the office buildings on the opposite side of Classen. So having a set back is at least in keeping with things.

My only complaint is the architecture. I feel like the original mock-ups were invoking Villa Theresa and the buildings had a unique look to them. The new drawings look much more generic. This could be an old folks' home anywhere in the nation now. Borderline, dare I say it, "suburban".

So yes the site plan is now much improved,. and that probably makes up for the underwhelming architecture.

So LIHTC in Oklahoma has a 40-year compliance period...but only the same 10-year tax credit life? If so that's awful and I'm not so sure the HH people shouldn't go back to their pitchforks.

This is a much much better site plan! I'm so glad they moved the parking off of the intersection to the back. Maybe, as Sid says they should edge things closer to the sidewalk. On the other hand nothing on that block fronts the sidewalk. The Villa Theresa campus is set back quite a ways, as are all the office buildings on the opposite side of Classen. So having a set back is at least in keeping with things.

My only complaint is the architecture. I feel like the original mock-ups were invoking Villa Theresa and the buildings had a unique look to them. The new drawings look much more generic. This could be an old folks' home anywhere in the nation now. Borderline, dare I say it, "suburban".

So yes the site plan is now much improved,. and that probably makes up for the underwhelming architecture.

I think the building is pushed all the way to the setback and/or property line (you can see it in the site plan).

I agree that the building is less than interesting. For me, the quality of the exterior materials will make or break this project. I don't have high hopes because I already see PTACs below the windows. :)

This is a much much better site plan! I'm so glad they moved the parking off of the intersection to the back. Maybe, as Sid says they should edge things closer to the sidewalk. On the other hand nothing on that block fronts the sidewalk. The Villa Theresa campus is set back quite a ways, as are all the office buildings on the opposite side of Classen. So having a set back is at least in keeping with things.

My only complaint is the architecture. I feel like the original mock-ups were invoking Villa Theresa and the buildings had a unique look to them. The new drawings look much more generic. This could be an old folks' home anywhere in the nation now. Borderline, dare I say it, "suburban".

So yes the site plan is now much improved,. and that probably makes up for the underwhelming architecture.

I agree with the architecture, but it does resemble The Edge in some ways when compared to the 13th street side of things. That section of "Classen" is a mess when it comes to setbacks.

I wonder if anyone criticizing "the architecture" realizes this is low income housing that has to meet a zillion design requirements and anything else in the QAP.

They clearly set it back so far because they wanted to avoid the old people screaming "Get off my lawn!!!" out of their windows to all the future pedestrians of the area.

I wonder if anyone criticizing "the architecture" realizes this is low income housing that has to meet a zillion design requirements and anything else in the QAP.

Fair point.

Yet another redesign for this project:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/commonsoct1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/commonsoct2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/commonsoct3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/commonsoct4.jpg

Is it actually getting worse?

It seems to have gained a bit of height in places and has been re-arranged a bit, but nothing dramatically different.

The quality of this project will hinge on the materiality. The elevations & renderings don't really show enough to make a judgement. It could range from matching the adjacent Villa Teresa homes or be cheap brick, asphalt shingles, and vinyl windows like 1226 N. Shartel used to have before it was demo'd. http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/1454d1336856540-1226-n-shartel-1226shartel4.jpg

We'll see.

Yet another redesign for this project:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/commons121014a.JPG


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/commons121014b.JPG

I like it a lot better and with the pitched roof gone it looks a lot more urban.

Yes, this design is way better than the others.

huge improvement... -M

Wow! I can't remember another development that had such an improvement from initial design. Of course, will all the redesigns we never really know what we are gonna get.

Pete, how far are they along in the process of actually building this?

This latest design was submitted to the Downtown Design Review Committee for next week's meeting.

It seems they are ready to go on approval.

Looks fantastic.

How much chance is there for a switcheroo on the design once something gets approval from the Downtown Design Review Committee? Would it take a presentation to another Committee meeting?