And I'm not taking these discussions any more to my Twitter or blog either. And I've often praised your work with this site. But we disagree greatly as to whether what you've started to do with this site is "breaking news" or "breaking the story." And I doubt that's going to change. So can we go back to talking about 21c?

It's not just about semantics, it's about taking credit and withholding it when due.

That seems to be the basis of the disagreement, and the point I wanted to make clear.

Just a note here, as far as 3 weeks back I remember Steve specifically saying that he was tracking housing for the hotel Black when someone questioned it being turned into a boutique hotel.

This is all good discussion - keep the info channels open.

Just a note here, as far as 3 weeks back I remember Steve specifically saying that he was tracking housing for the hotel Black when someone questioned it being turned into a boutique hotel.

This is all good discussion - keep the info channels open.

Very well aware of that -- it's not what I'm referring to. Read back through this thread.

End the feud! Stop it now this is nuts and immature. Never again shall The Feud rear it's head in another thread.

I agree. I've asked to go back to the topic repeatedly. Pete and I need to agree to disagree. What we do is different. That's where I'm at. Time to move on.

It was said recently that when actors publicly disagree the only winner is People Magazine. I don't see a winner in a "Pete v. Steve" thing, but everyone here wins when there is a Pete AND Steve thing.

The rules & roles of journalism & blogging are evolving, so this isn't unusual for two hard-working, competitive guys who love this city. I hope that you guys can take it offline and work things out. Let us know when that happens.

I agree.;

Any guess as to what is going to go where in this building? I think Sid was talking about tearing down everything that backs up to the building excluding four buildings facing Sheridan for reuse and building a parking garage. I know at the Mansion at Forsyth Park in Savannah is 125 rooms complete with two restaurants and a cooking school. They have a small parking lot behind the hotel for parking for hotel guests only. I would think the taller portion of the building would house the hotel and restaurant and the smaller portion on the corner of Classen and Main would house the museum. Thoughts?

As I look at the building again, maybe the restaurant would be better on the smaller side facing the corner of Main and Classen with a dedicated bar up stairs that way when they decide to tear down the ugly metal fence along Classen, they can put in a patio.

Happy Birthday, Sid! :kicking:

Forgive me if my comment came off the wrong way. I'm just tired of all these threads turning into debates over my work.If I offended you, please accept my apology. It's quite possible, especially with the change of ownership a couple of years ago, that the culture at Opubco has changed greatly since I worked there and they now do allow full freedom to staff writers to report facts as they are, rather than omitting details that don't further the corporate goals.

And I DO agree with your distinction between breaking the news, and breaking the story. Confirmation and usable quotes are very much a part of the full story. IMO that's why, as I said before, blogs and on-line forums don't (yet) count as "responsible journalism," although they're great fun and do frequently provide worthwhile service to the public interest (such as helping organize protest against "old boy" thinking in certain circles).

Keep up the good work!

Thanks Pete for the reminder I'm getting old. ;)

Happy birthday!!

And if you are getting old, I'm getting ancient. :o

The story is bigger than "who broke what". Today's information river is fed by multiple streams. When the story becomes about the information process and not the information, then everyone suffers.

Many or most of us are avid OKCTalk participants or viewers, and we also subscribe to the Daily OK. Both serve a valuable purpose and shouldn't be forced to compete.

Please, Steve and Pete, don't be drawn into a pi$$ing match that serves no one and only feeds those that would keep instigating it. 98% appreciate both sources and personalities.+1

I've known about 21c for a long time and so I know there is no scenario I'd accept where Steve didn't know about it too.

Pete, great job digging up what you did and get it out there to the people. Everyone here thoroughly enjoys and appreciates the effort you put into this site. It's the only website I can't stand not checking daily -largely because of the work you and others put into it, including Steve (though more so in the past).

Steve, keep doing the grunt, journalism work that has kept you employed for so many years. OKC Central and your connections are incredibly unique for a plains city our size. You've got a special talent and we all appreciate it a ton.

On to the 21c discussion...

I'm curious Steve, during your interviews with either the municipal, Alliance, or 21c leadership, did the topic of peripheral development come up. If I know you at all, I suspect you are working on a much longer piece on the topic of west downtown development trends and 'what to look for'. Can you tease out a few generalizations? Namely, I'm interested in which E/W road will become the "west-side" corridor, especially as it relates to transportation and early redevelopment efforts. Sheridan appears to be the logical one but there's still lots of room and time for surprises.

Cheers and happy holidays to everyone.Happy birthday Sid! What can I get you for your __ birthday? Perhaps if I told you the idea of narrowing Classen has kind of grown on me is a gift maybe? ;) lol

But seriously man, happy birthday to you and may your family have a great Thanksgiving and happy holidays man! :)

As a innocent bystander, I gotta agree with Steve on this one. When Pete made his first comment about "breaking the story" (which was snarky in nature), I went back to read the thread, as I didn't recall it going down that way. Sure enough, Pete had heard things about both locations, but didn't say confirmed until Steve had his piece online. I don't categorize this as breaking a story. I truly appreciate Pete's work and love this site, but it certainly seems that Pete has been been vocal in his desire/ambition to "outscoop" Steve and subsequently broadcast this chest puffing feat to the world. Steve has had his moments as well, but they have already been hashed out in other threads so I will not go into those.

You both do qaulity work and I religiously follow both, but the childish behavior is growing tiresome. Both of you need to man up and confront each other about your obvious passive agression towards one another and move on. Like adults.

I
.....

On to the 21c discussion...

I'm curious Steve, during your interviews with either the municipal, Alliance, or 21c leadership, did the topic of peripheral development come up. If I know you at all, I suspect you are working on a much longer piece on the topic of west downtown development trends and 'what to look for'. Can you tease out a few generalizations? Namely, I'm interested in which E/W road will become the "west-side" corridor, especially as it relates to transportation and early redevelopment efforts. Sheridan appears to be the logical one but there's still lots of room and time for surprises.

Cheers and happy holidays to everyone.

Yes, there is a lot more in play for the west side. But I'm at not at liberty to get into details. I pretty much hinted at things in my column.

Question to all of you: how do you think the property immediately north of the Fred Jones plant can be developed in a way that compliments the 21c hotel and yet can function with the jail in the background and also act as a visual buffer to the jail?

Bail bonds!

Bail bonds!
(Watch Urbanized and I now get into an online fight....)
;)

Question to all of you: how do you think the property immediately north of the Fred Jones plant can be developed in a way that compliments the 21c hotel and yet can function with the jail in the background and also act as a visual buffer to the jail?

Sounds like a tower to me! Thanks for the good news Steve!

:D

Sounds like a tower to me! Thanks for the good news Steve!

:D

No, no... I'm not suggesting anything! I'm sincerely asking for your ideas!

Was worth a try :-)

Thanks Pete for the reminder I'm getting old. ;)

And here I thought you were like the rest of us, and your kiddos held that job full-time. :)

Happy BD

Housing! With perhaps a little retail on the ground floor.

There is zero new housing in a half a mile of that Fred Jones building and it's desperately needed before the district can have much life.

I'd love to see three or four decent-sized housing projects for the area between FJ and the CBD.

It's a rather low-key area of Downtown and based on the building stock, it will likely never be a particularly dense area/district for things like office/residential/retail/restaurant (in relation to other areas of downtown). It will have some of those things sure, but it's not going to be the go to area for any of this.

It is closest to the "Arts District", and whatever is built really ought to work in conjunction with this theme so that someday we will actually have an arts district.

I would think a mixed-use facility would be ideal, something between a 5 and 10 story building with residential or office on the top…maybe even a rooftop bar, but I can't decide if that cheapen's a potential rooftop bar by 21c.

If the jail is going to be around forever, then an art exhibit that specifically focuses on works themed around related things might be nice. It would be nice to have 2 galleries in one area so that you can make a long event of going to this part of town.

Other options include a small theater, live performance bar (in the cabaret, broadway, jazz vein), comedy club (I'm very meh on this idea), a dance studio - preferably with a performance space. It would be neat if the rooftop had some functionality to it, even if it weren't a bar…some sort of Rooftop Theater.

And again, if the jail is going to be there, we may as well embrace it and try and use the jail as inspiration for how we can create a unique, desirable (yes I know jail is anything but that), and fun/interesting area of town for both locals and visitors.

It really does need to be arts related though.

^ Seems pretty reasonable, but it might be best to have extra emphasis on retail (boutique) to create some hustle and bustle across the street from the hotel for guests to interact with. Right now, I see a really lonely, very nice hotel. Who knows how the intervening years will change that.

I'd say some kind of monument.. maybe a fountain with some limited grounds, maybe some kind of observation point on top of an arch of some kind....like 6 to 8 floors tall. Something that would be a draw with the arts.

As a innocent bystander, I gotta agree with Steve on this one. When Pete made his first comment about "breaking the story" (which was snarky in nature), I went back to read the thread, as I didn't recall it going down that way. Sure enough, Pete had heard things about both locations, but didn't say confirmed until Steve had his piece online. I don't categorize this as breaking a story. I truly appreciate Pete's work and love this site, but it certainly seems that Pete has been been vocal in his desire/ambition to "outscoop" Steve and subsequently broadcast this chest puffing feat to the world. Steve has had his moments as well, but they have already been hashed out in other threads so I will not go into those.

You both do qaulity work and I religiously follow both, but the childish behavior is growing tiresome. Both of you need to man up and confront each other about your obvious passive agression towards one another and move on. Like adults.

I like you both and consider both my friends but just can't help to think what my 11 year old son likes to say whenever any of us are squabbling........]"Girls, Girls, you're both pretty". [/COLOR] Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Housing! With perhaps a little retail on the ground floor.

There is zero new housing in a half a mile of that Fred Jones building and it's desperately needed before the district can have much life.

I'd love to see three or four decent-sized housing projects for the area between FJ and the CBD.

I agree that housing would be a great get for Film Row. With this announcement and the progress on the school, the timing seems right.

I wonder if there's a way to build a garage on the north half of that lot that would screen housing on the south half from the jail.... is the property big enough for that?

^
Not unless they acquire the marble / tile place north of that parcel.

What they own is not very deep.


Steve -- without revealing too much -- are you aware of other non Chip Fudge projects for Film Row or generally between 21c and the CBD?

I haven't heard a thing other than the City propose a large parking garage along Main, but that was only part of a high-level study done a couple of years ago.

(Reminder that in the graphic below, Jones/Hall properties are in yellow, City/Police in pink, developed and/or in good hands in green).

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/westdowntown.JPG

Pete

Has the first little building on NE corner of Classen and Main changed hands in last several years? Last time I looked at it, it was owned by the granite people. The second building and lot is Fred Jones but the first lot shouldn't be unless they sold it.

Pete

Has the first little building on NE corner of Classen and Main changed hands in last several years? Last time I looked at it, it was owned by the granite people. The second building and lot is Fred Jones but the first lot shouldn't be unless they sold it.

Yes, I believe they sold it because in my first graphic -- that I did about a year ago -- the Jones family did not own it and now they do.

It's a weird quirk of the County Assessor system that they often combine previously separate properties into one parcel/record when they fall under the same ownership.

There used to be two separate properties on the north side of Main, but now there is just one owned by Hall Capital. If I hadn't taken a screen shot (with parcels delineated) a couple of years ago, I never would have even noticed this change.

Any clue what it sold for? I had wanted that property before I bought my current lot but never could get price from them

^

See my revised post above.

This is just now one large parcel and there is not data of a sale, although a "non-sale" transaction took place on 10/4/13. I'm sure there was a sale between these two parties, but because the properties are now combined, that information is lost.

This same little wrinkle in the County system makes looking up sales data on other properties very deceiving. For example, Chesapeake bought dozens of separate properties for their main campus, but if you go to look it up on the assessor's system, you only see several large parcels. All the sales data on the small parcels is gone, unless you happen to know what those parcel #'s were (and for those properties, I do).

Leonard Sullivan Oklahoma County Assessor Real Property Detail Sheet (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R013689630)

I smell something bigger afoot.

Interesting that it just sold recently. Like I said before, I had talked with them and they said they were interested in selling it 6-7 years ago but could never get them past make offer and we really didn't haven't any clue what it was worth. It is a really small piece of land but does give them the opportunity to clean it up for the hotel.

You'd really like to see the Tile and Marble Building acquired and at least the metal building razed.

Yes, I believe they sold it because in my first graphic -- that I did about a year ago -- the Jones family did not own it and now they do.

It's a weird quirk of the County Assessor system that they often combine previously separate properties into one parcel/record when they fall under the same ownership.

There used to be two separate properties on the north side of Main, but now there is just one owned by Hall Capital. If I hadn't taken a screen shot (with parcels delineated) a couple of years ago, I never would have even noticed this change.

Starts to make more sense now, right?

Question to all of you: how do you think the property immediately north of the Fred Jones plant can be developed in a way that compliments the 21c hotel and yet can function with the jail in the background and also act as a visual buffer to the jail?

From an architectual perspective, yes. It would be pretty easy.

EDIT: I missed the "how" part of your question so I probably need to elaborate =)

I smell something bigger afoot.

Walgreens sells something for that, Spartan. :wink:

How about a mixed-used commercial mid-rise? Have ground level retail and restaurants and maybe 5-7 stories of offices above it.

Sid, that really is a fantastic plan, and I'd be impressed like hell if we cold pull off something that well put together.

That being said…I would be a mix of enraged, depressed, disappointed, and despondent.

Why?

Because Oklahoma City's Art Scene is a joke. It's laughable, and embarrassing. And it's not because of a lack of quality people in the Arts. It's because so few in this town seem to actually, genuinely give a #$%! about them. Building a Stadium in the Arts District would be an unmistakable slap in the face to every person who has stuck around with their Arts career in this crap-hole-of-a-town-for-the-Arts.

It's already a joke that our "Arts District" is surrounded by a Jail, Municipal Court and Police Headquarters, has very few amenities, and can't even keep something like "The Oklahoma Contemporary" within its boundaries. Plopping down a Sports stadium (which Sports are arguably the #1 detractor from the Arts nationwide) in that same district just can't happen.

A modern mid rise office building would be perfect.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/5162eb66f92ea1428c00b898/MPBRendering.jpg

Hint of the old with a respectable dosage of modern. And ground floor retail.

^I like that.

A modern mid rise office building would be perfect.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/5162eb66f92ea1428c00b898/MPBRendering.jpg

Hint of the old with a respectable dosage of modern. And ground floor retail.

I agree. The scale of something like that would fit in well with the area.

A modern mid rise office building would be perfect.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/5162eb66f92ea1428c00b898/MPBRendering.jpg

Hint of the old with a respectable dosage of modern. And ground floor retail.

I can dig it!

That would contrast against the Fred Jones Building, but not in a bad way. I sense some synergy here.

Someone contact Gary Brooks and see if he can build that. Does he do office buildings?
:)

Sid, that really is a fantastic plan, and I'd be impressed like hell if we cold pull off something that well put together.
Because Oklahoma City's Art Scene is a joke. It's laughable, and embarrassing. And it's not because of a lack of quality people in the Arts. It's because so few in this town seem to actually, genuinely give a #$%! about them. Building a Stadium in the Arts District would be an unmistakable slap in the face to every person who has stuck around with their Arts career in this crap-hole-of-a-town-for-the-Arts.

It's already a joke that our "Arts District" is surrounded by a Jail, Municipal Court and Police Headquarters, has very few amenities, and can't even keep something like "The Oklahoma Contemporary" within its boundaries. Plopping down a Sports stadium (which Sports are arguably the #1 detractor from the Arts nationwide) in that same district just can't happen.

Wow. As someone who is only slightly involved with arts in this community, I find this quite insulting. No the arts community isn't as polished as some in other communities but its definitely here and thriving in a lot of corners. And lots do support it here...to suggest otherwise is a slap in the face to those people.

And please drop the sports and art as a zero sum game argument. Its at best untrue and at worst elitist. The Field Museum in Chicago is thriving and its across the street from Soldier Field for goodness sakes. Communities can and do have both.

Sid, that really is a fantastic plan, and I'd be impressed like hell if we cold pull off something that well put together.

That being said…I would be a mix of enraged, depressed, disappointed, and despondent.

Why?

Because Oklahoma City's Art Scene is a joke. It's laughable, and embarrassing. And it's not because of a lack of quality people in the Arts. It's because so few in this town seem to actually, genuinely give a #$%! about them. Building a Stadium in the Arts District would be an unmistakable slap in the face to every person who has stuck around with their Arts career in this crap-hole-of-a-town-for-the-Arts.

It's already a joke that our "Arts District" is surrounded by a Jail, Municipal Court and Police Headquarters, has very few amenities, and can't even keep something like "The Oklahoma Contemporary" within its boundaries. Plopping down a Sports stadium (which Sports are arguably the #1 detractor from the Arts nationwide) in that same district just can't happen.

Our arts scene is certainly not a joke. However, to your point, the nomenclature of "Arts District" is a joke. Perhaps instead of denigrating our otherwise fertile arts scene, you should advocate renaming the "Arts District."

A modern mid rise office building would be perfect.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/5162eb66f92ea1428c00b898/MPBRendering.jpg

Hint of the old with a respectable dosage of modern. And ground floor retail.

LOVE THIS. I'm very impressed with your design aesthetics.

Our arts scene is certainly not a joke. However, to your point, the nomenclature of "Arts District" is a joke. Perhaps instead of denigrating our otherwise fertile arts scene, you should advocate renaming the "Arts District."

Our Arts Scene is a joke because Arts are married to public input…and when the spouse of the Arts is in bed with everyone but the Arts…well…yes…it's a joke.

I really don't need any other example than how quickly and happily we approach the idea of razing Stage Center. Game. Set. Match.

I've even said the reverse of what you two are implying, which is that it's not for a lack of talent. On the contrary, there are lots of talented people in the Arts in OKC…you know how valued they are? They're lucky to make a lower to lower-middle class living pouring far more than 40 hours/week into their craft…oh, and at least 20 hours/week at a job that can actually pays on a regular basis.

The Thunder's most recent Gate Receipts in Forbes were $43M … I'd be very surprised if all the top Arts organizations total revenue was $43M combined. And that's total revenue for the Arts Orgs and not gate receipts…I'd be shocked if gate receipts totaled 10% of that $43M.

A modern mid rise office building would be perfect.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/5162eb66f92ea1428c00b898/MPBRendering.jpg

Hint of the old with a respectable dosage of modern. And ground floor retail.

Just have that corner part on Classen and that type of design is gold.

Our Arts Scene is a joke because Arts are married to public input…and when the spouse of the Arts is in bed with everyone but the Arts…well…yes…it's a joke.

I really don't need any other example than how quickly and happily we approach the idea of razing Stage Center. Game. Set. Match.

I've even said the reverse of what you two are implying, which is that it's not for a lack of talent. On the contrary, there are lots of talented people in the Arts in OKC…you know how valued they are? They're lucky to make a lower to lower-middle class living pouring far more than 40 hours/week into their craft…oh, and at least 20 hours/week at a job that can actually pays on a regular basis.

The Thunder's most recent Gate Receipts in Forbes were $43M … I'd be very surprised if all the top Arts organizations total revenue was $43M combined. And that's total revenue for the Arts Orgs and not gate receipts…I'd be shocked if gate receipts totaled 10% of that $43M.

Very few theater productions have taken place in the Stage Center for some time now. It may be an architectural wonder to some but it was poorly planned for any sort of production or plays. You should take that up with the architect and not the state of the arts community. Besides, how can you focus on the SC and ignore the massive planned renovations to the Civic Center Music Hall or momentum citywide to get more live music venues?

As far as artists struggling here, ever heard of the term "starving artist"? This is not something only in OKC. Go to Santa Fe, arguably the best art scene within driving distance. For every Georgia O'Keefe-level successful artist, there are 50 painters who have to peddle their work to tourists on the Plaza between working their "normal job" to pay bills. Even my family friend, who is mad talented and landed a role on a mid-level Broadway play in NYC, still has to work as a nanny to spoiled Manhattan brats 25 hours a week. She hates doing it but she's got bills and will do anything for her big break. Just the nature of the game.

Our Arts Scene is a joke because Arts are married to public input…and when the spouse of the Arts is in bed with everyone but the Arts…well…yes…it's a joke.

I really don't need any other example than how quickly and happily we approach the idea of razing Stage Center. Game. Set. Match.

I've even said the reverse of what you two are implying, which is that it's not for a lack of talent. On the contrary, there are lots of talented people in the Arts in OKC…you know how valued they are? They're lucky to make a lower to lower-middle class living pouring far more than 40 hours/week into their craft…oh, and at least 20 hours/week at a job that can actually pays on a regular basis.

The Thunder's most recent Gate Receipts in Forbes were $43M … I'd be very surprised if all the top Arts organizations total revenue was $43M combined. And that's total revenue for the Arts Orgs and not gate receipts…I'd be shocked if gate receipts totaled 10% of that $43M.

Razing a dilapidated, non-functional building to make way for a tower that will hopefully house a sizable company's employee base is hardly a perfect example of OKC's lack of the Arts.

http://brighamyen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/TCA_Olympic+Hill_HanoverLOW.jpg

(Watch Urbanized and I now get into an online fight....)
;)

I prefer to limit my Internet fights to Twitter... ;)

This development should be the catalyst in redeveloping the western segment of downtown OKC! Love this concept. The vibe I get is a big metropolitan, tastefully done development. Adds to OKC becoming a more cosmopolitan city with nice amenities!

http://brighamyen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/TCA_Olympic+Hill_HanoverLOW.jpg

Is this a 21c hotel? Or are you just posting something you like?

Ok, for the area north of the Museum 21C location
clear that entire area, including where the jail stands now. Dig down a ways and put in a multi-level parking structure below ground level. Build it so you can add a big arse retail/office/maybeevenresidential space above it in a few years and then in thirty or so years dig it back up and put in a really awesome tower for an energy company instead.

No? It's happened before. Maybe not wait thirty years though.

Is this a 21c hotel? Or are you just posting something you like?

No, just something that would look nice there.

TCA Architects Help Design the New Urban Neighborhoods of Downtown LA | DTLA RISING (http://brighamyen.com/2013/03/11/hanover-olympic-hill-mixed-use-project/)

No, just something that would look nice there.

TCA Architects Help Design the New Urban Neighborhoods of Downtown LA | DTLA RISING (http://brighamyen.com/2013/03/11/hanover-olympic-hill-mixed-use-project/)

Yes, and that is real retail space.