I'm excited about the new hotel and it being an art museum. The west side of downtown is devoloping into a massive arts district with the Art Museum, Art galleries on Film Row, Civic Center, Carpenter Square on Main, The Paramount, radio station, etc.

This is just another spark that will continue to draw development west. The fact that it is more than just a hotel will draw more development around it. Having a massive art gallery with a restaurant will make it a destination, and will draw development to Classen.

I could also see a massive rooftop bar ontop of the hotel.

Does anyone know how old the tiny building to the north of the Fred Jones plant is? It looks like it could have been built in 1900?

Teo, I don't think the downtown districts "compete" with each other as much as you represent. I believe development in district A and/or B makes development in district C an easier sell to users, residents, investors, and bankers. Bricktown stagnated for a while, yet now seems to be gaining as much or more momentum as it's ever had, despite (because of?) major development in other districts. Downtown is downtown is downtown, or - put another way - a high tide floats all boats.

I agree.... more development downtown in any district means less development in NW OKC or South OKC. I feel that downtown is drawing more local businesses and the sububuran growth is all chains. So the more downtown grows the more local businesses and corporations will thrive.

I agree.... more development downtown in any district means less development in NW OKC or South OKC. I feel that downtown is drawing more local businesses and the sububuran growth is all chains. So the more downtown grows the more local businesses and corporations will thrive.I highly doubt that, but alright.

I agree.... more development downtown in any district means less development in NW OKC or South OKC. I feel that downtown is drawing more local businesses and the sububuran growth is all chains. So the more downtown grows the more local businesses and corporations will thrive.

Local developers / Real Estate groups may have a smaller pool of dollars to spread around. That is true. Yes, we want to see outside investment continue to pour-in so our "local investment dollars" are able to fund Other projects. Success breeds success. Just like this project, 21c Museum, this outside dollar allows for the local developer to spend in the surrounding adjacent properties as well. You need both. And, the suburban growth is the same, but with a different group of national developers (chains) that have a different business model, but they need the local deveoper / small retail store to invest too. Again, you need both.

There are two buildings on the north side. The one to the west belongs to the Granite Company behind it. They use it for storage. I looked at buying the property before I bought my Film Exchange lot 6-7 years ago. They told my realtor that they would entertain offers to sale but would never give us a number so I went with the lot instead. The other building belongs to the Fred Jones family. Interesting building as it is two stories but doesn't look like a lot of sq footage on either floor. (very small footprint)

From Steve's article:

The Fred Jones property, 800 W Main, is just one block to the north of Film Row and technically an extension of that district. The entire block, and several properties to the north, east and south, are owned by the Hall family. The family's members are proud descendants of the local early day automotive pioneer Fred Jones, and they have rebuffed plenty of development proposals for the block that they deemed too ordinary.

Have no doubt, the family won't sit on their remaining properties long once the deal with 21c Museum Hotels is completed. That possibility alone makes the museum-hotel proposal far more significant to the development of the west edge of downtown than many may realize.

This is what gets me the most excited about this property and the impending surrounding development.

I agree.... more development downtown in any district means less development in NW OKC or South OKC.

Absolutely correct. A strong and growing urban core reduces the expansion of the suburban fringe.

Absolutely correct. A strong and growing urban core reduces the expansion of the suburban fringe.

I'm very good with reducing (or even halting) significant EXPANSION of the suburban fringe, but still want to see the suburban areas to which we are already committed remain stable and in fact ALSO see new and interesting development. I mean, we have already made the investment in those areas, and besides, the city is only as good as ALL of its parts. I think it only becomes a zero-sum game when we continue to allow unchecked new expansion at the fringes - which creates a geometric growth in public infrastructure investment and responsibility, as you often aptly point out - IN LIEU OF quality suburban infill and redevelopment. There are plenty of people who will never adopt an urban lifestyle, and that is fine. We should focus on making our existing suburbs better, and at the same time make exurban greenfield development less attractive by fully shifting the expanding financial burden of it all to the people who insist on going there.

But when it comes to development within the city's center (which I would characterize as inside the old Grand Avenue loop), I say all of it is good, and ALL of it benefits EVERYONE ELSE within that boundary.

From Steve's article:

The Fred Jones property, 800 W Main, is just one block to the north of Film Row and technically an extension of that district. The entire block, and several properties to the north, east and south, are owned by the Hall family. The family's members are proud descendants of the local early day automotive pioneer Fred Jones, and they have rebuffed plenty of development proposals for the block that they deemed too ordinary.

Have no doubt, the family won't sit on their remaining properties long once the deal with 21c Museum Hotels is completed. That possibility alone makes the museum-hotel proposal far more significant to the development of the west edge of downtown than many may realize.

This is what gets me the most excited about this property and the impending surrounding development.

Note the typo/error on the address in the article. It should be 900 W. Main.

As illustrated in the aerial I've posted several times, the Jones family doesn't own a huge amount of property in that area, especially when you consider they will have to provide a lot of parking for the hotel.

It will take scores of property owners to truly redevelop and bridge this development to the rest of downtown.

Will probably go with garage parking it would seem. Perhaps that's the Alliance's role.

Assuming a garage or parking on one of those lots, there still isn't a lot of area to develop; nothing that would allow for several hundred living untis, unless they wipe out all the smaller buildings directly south of FJ's (and I doubt that will happen):

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/4002d1372964752-fred-jones-building-fredjones2.jpg

These are some of the buildings directly south of the proposed hotel:

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/searches/sketches/picfile/2731/R013689095001pA.jpg

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2731/R013689315001pA.jpg

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2731/R013689270001pA.jpg

...

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/searches/sketches/picfile/2731/R013689095001pA.jpg

...

Were I king for a day ... these two get reworked into some combination of eatery/retail/office. The space to the west of these, on over to Classen, becomes ground level retail, topped with multi-level parking, topped with one to three level office and three to six level residential. Oh, to be king for a day.

We should try to save the buildings to the south IMO.

We should try to save the buildings to the south IMO.

The buildings Pete posted are the ONLY structures worth saving to the south of the FJ building. The rest are nondescript, connecting buildings in the form of loading bays that should be demolished. With the connecting buildings gone, you have still have tons of space on the lot. Or say they only save two, there is just so much vacant land, empty structures, and POTENTIAL.

Maybe not for several hundred residential units, but the area could be so much more than what is currently present.

Sorry, meant save the ones he posted. I go by there all the time and agree the other buildings are expendable.

Okay, spent some time plotting ownership of properties in West Downtown (WeDo?? :) ) along Main, Sheridan and California.

Yellow is owned by Jones family, pink is City/Police owned, green has been been developed / redeveloped to a decent standard or is already in the hands of motivated developers.

Properties at the SW corner of Sheridan & Shartel are already owned by Chip Fudge; he has said he would like to buy all the lots directly north owned by Irwin Business Machines but thus far the existing owner has been stubborn. Those properties, along with the cluster directly north (Dagwell Storage), seem to be key in linking the existing Film Row development with 21c / Main Street. And of course, the City/Police doing something with all those surface parking lots.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/westdowntown.JPG

Since Pete (kinda) brought up nomenclature....

I made a quick mod to my previous map to show the blocks composing Film Row.

http://dl.dropbox.com/s/tdme0jvy4f34vuc/FilmRowBlocks.jpg

Film Row extends from Main to California, and from Walker to Classen.

Personally, I'd like to call the parts west of Sheridan as "West Film Row". Or perhaps it shoud be "Film Row West". Either way, this is the new frontier to conquer.

Strictly for traffic reasons, south of FJ would make a great location for a multi-story building that included:

Level 1: Grocery (Preferably something of quality like Whole Foods that likes urban locations)
Level 2: Office
Level 3: Housing
Level 4: Housing
Level 5: Housing

Garage goes between FJ and this building.

This would provide really easy access to a new, grocery store for not only all of downtown but also lots of people with access to Classen and the highway system.

Most importantly, I'd like to see that whole block get developed very rapidly if 21c goes there to help provide a bookend for Sheridan and the west side of downtown. I suspect again, the Alliance is putting a ton of focus on that area right now with their planning. Getting a few balls rolling now would make that whole corridor could explode with development in just a matter of a few years. Faster than we are seeing in Midtown actually.

On edit: Even if it can't be included today in plans, I hope a Sheridan line from end-to-end is in the near future for our streetcar enthusiats. If there ever was a need for a pedestrian extender in the downtown OKC area, The Steel Yard to 21c and everything in between will represent much of the best of OKC Urban lifestyle.


Sid, I would have "like'd" that post if it had been possible. :)

I have to say that I don't keep up with the streetcar thread(s) for the most part because all the details (technicalities/politics) are boring to me (sorry!). So I'll ask you: do you think a linear route along Sheridan, as you have suggested, is a possibility for Phase 2?

Ok, this is a zoom-in of Pete's earlier map post showing lot ownership.

http://dl.dropbox.com/s/h88lh3vuxb0lg2a/CityServices.jpg

What is the big building (with that huge parking lot) just south of the jail? The Google map says "Oklahoma City General Services". Nice vague term.

Is that part of the jail complex? What is the future of this building -- i.e. is it to remain or has someone metioned any redevelopment possibilities?

Strictly for traffic reasons, south of FJ would make a great location for a multi-story building that included:

Level 1: Grocery (Preferably something of quality like Whole Foods that likes urban locations)
Level 2: Office
Level 3: Housing
Level 4: Housing
Level 5: Housing

Garage goes between FJ and this building.

This would provide really easy access to a new, grocery store for not only all of downtown but also lots of people with access to Classen and the highway system.

Most importantly, I'd like to see that whole block get developed very rapidly if 21c goes there to help provide a bookend for Sheridan and the west side of downtown. I suspect again, the Alliance is putting a ton of focus on that area right now with their planning. Getting a few balls rolling now would make that whole corridor could explode with development in just a matter of a few years. Faster than we are seeing in Midtown actually.

On edit: Even if it can't be included today in plans, I hope a Sheridan line from end-to-end is in the near future for our streetcar enthusiats. If there ever was a need for a pedestrian extender in the downtown OKC area, The Steel Yard to 21c and everything in between will represent much of the best of OKC Urban lifestyle.

How about a Courtyard and Pedestrian path between FJ and the 5 story development and a parking garage on the NE corner of Sheridan/FJ Road. Make FJ Road emergency access only and develop it for pedestrians.

^

It's City of OKC Fleet Services for all the various city vehicles (maintenance, etc.).

^

It's City of OKC Fleet Services for all the various city vehicles (maintenance, etc.).

Oh, ok. Well that's not going anywhere, then.

All those pink City properties and other surface lots are prime candidates for another Metropolitan / Level / Steel Yard / Edge scaled housing project or 2, 3 or 4.

That area desperately needs living units to bring it alive, on top of anything the Jones family may do with their properties.

Oh, ok. Well that's not going anywhere, then.

Remember, OKC has a huge fleet maintenance facility off of sw15th and Portland. Be nice if they would consolidate to that location.

With today's announcement of Blair Humphries' resignation to go to work on the Downtown Airpark project does this location now make more sense?

I like that idea but that would mean the garage would have to have Classen access. Doable but less than ideal. Mid-block garage access is problematic, especially for a wide road like Classen. If you wanted to make that work, you'd need to rework Classen a bit to include dedicated turn lanes. All of that is doable but would add the redevelopment costs of the area. I think I'd rather leave Fred Jones open and use it for the garage access and let Classen continue to act more as a main artery to Reno. Now, a minor two-lane with lots of pedestrian space as the new Fred Jones Road? You bet.

I'm confused. the NE corner of Sheridan and Fred Jones road is a block removed from Classen. I'm right in thinking you're talking about your proposed development going on the same block as 21c, not on the other side of Sheridan, yes?

The garage I'm proposing would only have access from Sheridan.

I am curious what the 21c people have been told in terms of future development in that area and what is to come to entice them to pick that location. Are there certain things city officials can share with other potential developers as far as future development of areas? For example, can someone say, "We have a developer looking to build 300+ apartments within two blocks of here with ground floor retail, etc"

Just learned that the estimated renovation price for this project will be around $50 million.

To put that in perspective, the Colcord renovation was only $16 million. Very different buildings obviously, but this project will be more than three times the investment for 138 rooms versus 108 at the Colcord.

And how much was the Skirvin renovation? Around the same amount if I remember correctly.

The Skirvin was a $55 million renovation.

Do we know how much of this coming from Fred Jones Family and how much is coming from 21c?

For now, we don't know who is paying what and I wouldn't be surprised if we never did as the relationship has been labeled a 'partnership'.

I'm excited at what is happening to the West side of Downtown. The wonderbread factory and the Fred Jones bldg used to capture my imagination as a kid driving on the old elevated crosstown. I'm so stoked about this project!

Is there any way to get the police HQ redesigned now that this quality development is on the go? Surely it is clear the city did not consider this area would take off when the police station was planned, but things change and so should the HQ fronting main St.

$50 million for that area of town? This project is baffling to me; perhaps even dubious.

Maybe we'll see some rapid redevelopment nearby that makes this project more logical. I've always thought that the westside has enormous potential.

Wow that is great, 50 mil... West Anchor!

Also, Steve did not break this story. We did, days before his Sunday article.True, but as the late Chan Guffey (at the time, city editor of the Oklahoman) told me personally in 1958, "It's not news until we print it." That attitude still holds true, I fear, and is one of the reasons for the decline of print journalism...

NOTE: I'm not dissing Steve for this; he has bosses who project company policy. I suspect he'd be more than willing to give credit where it's due, but must continue to project official policy! At least, that was my attitude when I worked at The Great Moral Daily (the in-house name used by the Times staff to refer to the morning paper) and I have a strong belief that he feels the same way but cannot say so in public. And he did "break" the story, if you consider "break" to mean publishing before any other conventional medium. Blogs and on-line forums don't count in that case...

Pete and I have different interpretations of breaking the "story." I saw no "story" here at OKC Talk. That's it. There's a big difference between repeating an unattributed tip and actually reporting, doing interviews and writing a story. I could have done what Pete did a week earlier. I CHOSE to get the FULL STORY, to do the work that's involved with that. I did a story. Pete put out an anonymous tip. Big difference. Now, if Pete were to have interviewed the company's president, gotten details of the deal, gotten local reaction, etc., then yeah, he would have broken the story. Notice I didn't say I broke "the news." Yeah, Pete did that. But he didn't break the story. I realize this response might trigger another feeding frenzy at my expense. I'm getting used to it. I chose not to respond to Pete's earlier comment in this thread. But I'm not going to hide behind the idea that my column somehow conformed to commands from up above. It was my wording. I stand by it. Let the hate begin.

Pete and I have different interpretations of breaking the "story." I saw no "story" here at OKC Talk. That's it. There's a big difference between repeating an unattributed tip and actually reporting, doing interviews and writing a story. I could have done what Pete did a week earlier. I CHOSE to get the FULL STORY, to do the work that's involved with that. I did a story. Pete put out an anonymous tip. Big difference. Now, if Pete were to have interviewed the company's president, gotten details of the deal, gotten local reaction, etc., then yeah, he would have broken the story. Notice I didn't say I broke "the news." Yeah, Pete did that. But he didn't break the story. I realize this response might trigger another feeding frenzy at my expense. I'm getting used to it. I chose not to respond to Pete's earlier comment in this thread. But I'm not going to hide behind the idea that my column somehow conformed to commands from up above. It was my wording. I stand by it. Let the hate begin.

No hate here. I agree with you 100%.

Pete and I have different interpretations of breaking the "story." I saw no "story" here at OKC Talk. That's it. There's a big difference between repeating an unattributed tip and actually reporting, doing interviews and writing a story. I could have done what Pete did a week earlier. I CHOSE to get the FULL STORY, to do the work that's involved with that. I did a story. Pete put out an anonymous tip. Big difference. Now, if Pete were to have interviewed the company's president, gotten details of the deal, gotten local reaction, etc., then yeah, he would have broken the story. Notice I didn't say I broke "the news." Yeah, Pete did that. But he didn't break the story. I realize this response might trigger another feeding frenzy at my expense. I'm getting used to it. I chose not to respond to Pete's earlier comment in this thread. But I'm not going to hide behind the idea that my column somehow conformed to commands from up above. It was my wording. I stand by it. Let the hate begin.

I don't hate Steve. I think that's a fair and accurate assessment. It is true that there really was no story here at okctalk, just snippets of information about who and where. The full story came from Steve and the Oklahoman. I suspect Steve knew some of the snippets of information but couldn't publicly do a story with details until either the company allowed him that right or deals had publicly gone down. Either way, it is a good job by Pete and Steve giving us the information from a few different angles. Keep doing what you're doing boys.

No hate here. I agree with you 100%.

Forgive me if my comment came off the wrong way. I'm just tired of all these threads turning into debates over my work.

Forgive me if my comment came off the wrong way. I'm just tired of all these threads turning into debates over my work.

Steve,

I think everyone appreciates your contribution to OKC way more than you think......

$50 million for that area of town? This project is baffling to me; perhaps even dubious.

Maybe we'll see some rapid redevelopment nearby that makes this project more logical. I've always thought that the westside has enormous potential.

Think big. OKC is the can-do city (despite our numerous foibles). I've quit underestimating OKC. So much has happened that I never thought would, i.e., renovation off Plaza Court, infill in inner-city neighborhoods, complete infill of Deep Deuce, explosion of housing, skyscraper(s), rail-based transit system. This city is on a roll so it's not a wild thought to imagine three city blocks being renovated in the heart of an exploding and rapidly densifying urban core where thousands of new housing units are being built, companies are relocating, and a rail-based transit system is about to be deployed. Even by 2016, when this is expected to be finished, the city will have changed a lot more.

I could have done what Pete did a week earlier. I CHOSE to get the FULL STORY, to do the work that's involved with that

Are you saying you knew about this deal and were working on the 'story' BEFORE this thread broke on Wednesday?

Or are you saying you took the information found here and used that as the genesis for your story?

And also, do you think those people you interviewed would have gone on record if the 'news' wasn't already out?


And BTW, there is lots of work involved in getting the information I provided as well. It's not just an "anonymous tip" any more than what you do is just "talking on the phone".

Steve,

I think everyone appreciates your contribution to OKC way more than you think......

This. Don't get riled up by a vocal minority, Steve. A large majority here appreciate your work and understand your role and the role of this board are different and complimentary.

Steve,

I think everyone appreciates your contribution to OKC way more than you think......

Agree.

I truly think the dynamic we have here is great with Pete and Steve. Honestly, I don't think OKC would be where it is or as supported as it is if it weren't for this site and Steve's great stories.

What is so great and what I live about it is usually we hear whispers and tidbits of info here than the anticipation builds. Then when I see the paper it's like Christmas morning reading the details in Steve's story.

Then back to OKCTALK to debate and see additional info.

This. Don't get riled up by a vocal minority, Steve. A large majority here appreciate your work and understand your role and the role of this board are different and complimentary.

This has been repeated here -- literally -- hundreds of times. By me personally dozens of times.

"Let the hate begin" implies otherwise and that's unfair.

There will always be a few harsh critics when you are in the public eye but that is not even close to characterizing the opinions that are expressed on this site.

Are you saying you knew about this deal and were working on the 'story' BEFORE this thread broke on Wednesday?

Or are you saying you took the information found here and used that as the genesis for your story?

And also, do you think those people you interviewed would have gone on record if the 'news' wasn't already out?


And BTW, there is lots of work involved in getting the information I provided as well. It's not just an "anonymous tip" any more than what you do is just "talking on the phone".

I was working the story before Wednesday. I fully knew about it long before it was first posted here. You broke the "news" Pete. I broke the story. Big difference.

The story is bigger than "who broke what". Today's information river is fed by multiple streams. When the story becomes about the information process and not the information, then everyone suffers.

Many or most of us are avid OKCTalk participants or viewers, and we also subscribe to the Daily OK. Both serve a valuable purpose and shouldn't be forced to compete.

Please, Steve and Pete, don't be drawn into a pi$$ing match that serves no one and only feeds those that would keep instigating it. 98% appreciate both sources and personalities.

Steve and Pete, can you answer this for me? I would appreciate your insite.


I am curious what the 21c people have been told in terms of future development in that area and what is to come to entice them to pick that location. Are there certain things city officials can share with other potential developers as far as future development of areas? For example, can someone say, "We have a developer looking to build 300+ apartments within two blocks of here with ground floor retail, etc"

The story is bigger than "who broke what". Today's information river is fed by multiple streams. When the story becomes about the information process and not the information, then everyone suffers.

Many or most of us are avid OKCTalk participants or viewers, and we also subscribe to the Daily OK. Both serve a valuable purpose and shouldn't be forced to compete.

Please, Steve and Pete, don't be drawn into a pi$$ing match that serves no one and only feeds those that would keep instigating it. 98% appreciate both sources and personalities.

I agree. That's why I didn't respond to Pete's first comment. But Jim's comments, while historically true and could have provided me "cover" with OKC Talk, simply didn't apply here, and it would have been disingenuous of me to have let that stand.
I've said my bit. Pete has said his. Let's move on.

I was working the story before Wednesday. I fully knew about it long before it was first posted here. You broke the "news" Pete. I broke the story. Big difference.

The only other journalist on this thread failed to see this distinction so this isn't as simple as you making a decree based on semantics and that being the final word.

Also, your comments in this thread and on Twitter immediately after this thread was posted sure sounded like you thought 21c was going into Hotel Black.

Steve and Pete, can you answer this for me? I would appreciate your insite.

Good question. It's tricky, because you often have developers competing for similar projects and opportunities. So a person like Cathy O'Connor are constantly walking tight-rope. They have to keep confidences if developers are going to share their plans. This dialogue, by the way, often helps in the city quietly playing a de facto planning role in terms of timing, public improvements, etc. So to answer your question, there is very little a city official can share with a developer about what other developers are up to if their plans have yet to be made public. A good developer, however, is usually able to do their own intelligence work and figure out what is what. And in this case, it's not difficult to figure out that west downtown is seriously in play.

The only other journalist on this thread failed to see this distinction so this isn't as simple as you making a decree based on semantics and that being the final word.

Also, your comments in this thread and on Twitter immediately after this thread was posted sure sounded like you thought 21c was going into Hotel Black.

Are you calling my honesty into question? I was, and am, tracking something very different with Hotel Black. I was meeting with the president of 21c and an executive with Hall Capital before you even posted your bit. We met Wednesday morning in the bar at the Sheraton Hotel and arranged our meeting on Monday.

This isn't a pissing match, it's a discussion of the roles of the various forms of media that now report news. I have never attacked Steve or treated him with anything other than great respect.

I also feel the need to stick up for this site and the work we do here. Especially on the very website (rather than Twitter or Steve's blog) where I have invested tens of thousands of dollars of my own money and thousands of hours of work.

Steve understands this better than anyone, as evidenced with his frequent posts/tweets/blogs/chat comments about defending what he does for a living and how he does it.

And I'm not taking these discussions any more to my Twitter or blog either. And I've often praised your work with this site. But we disagree greatly as to whether what you've started to do with this site is "breaking news" or "breaking the story." And I doubt that's going to change. So can we go back to talking about 21c?

It was said recently that when actors publicly disagree the only winner is People Magazine. I don't see a winner in a "Pete v. Steve" thing, but everyone here wins when there is a Pete AND Steve thing.

The rules & roles of journalism & blogging are evolving, so this isn't unusual for two hard-working, competitive guys who love this city. I hope that you guys can take it offline and work things out. Let us know when that happens.