And if they did, would they be willing to include the Farmer's Market (seems like a good opportunity to do that).

Important to remember just how much Steve has been pushing the idea that the Farmer's Market is the next big place. Maybe he knows about things that will help all this make more sense...

Steve frequently teases about some big stuff coming yet to be revealed. If downtown OKC was to experience Charlotte or Austin-like development, then it's very possible that stretch could be developed and vibrant by 2020. What are the chances of that happening though?

Just a thought. There are those that are very interested in seeing the county jail built anew away from DT, out near Choctaw as I recall. Those with that view haven't exactly been doing major leaps to try and salvage the existing jail, nor has anyone else.

If a new jail site comes into play, the existing jail site wouldn't seem to be easy to repurpose. Seems it might come a tumbling down, making for another nice project site not so far north of their new hotel in the FJ space.

At 22 years old, building a new one and tearing down this one might be slightly less a debacle than tearing down Turner Field after 17 years... though I'm no fan of it being downtown by any means.

Let's say there was a big movement to redo the streets and sidewalks in the west downtown / Farmer's Market area, complete with BID's, TIF dollars and other public incentives.

Without some major employers and/or developments (besides this one hotel and a couple of small buildings in Film Row) I would still say this is an outrageous misappropriation of resources.


Keep in mind that even with all the development along 10th & 13th in Midtown, very few of those streets have been redone and just try walking from the CBD. Terrible or non-existent sidewalks, vacant lots everywhere, dilapidated structures, etc.

Then let's stroll over to Deep Deuce and East Bricktown, where you have these same issues.

THEN let's take on Core to Shore, a huge area where we are investing a hundred million just for a park and yet the surrounding areas are worse than west downtown.

And these are just in the central core. The huge majority of our major thoroughfares throughout the City do not have sidewalks and the current project will only make a very small dent.


I've said this so many times: We need to create critical mass in a few select areas instead of spreading our resources all over the bloody central city. It's just like suburban sprawl, just on a smaller scale.

Just a thought. There are those that are very interested in seeing the county jail built anew away from DT, out near Choctaw as I recall. Those with that view haven't exactly been doing major leaps to try and salvage the existing jail, nor has anyone else.

If a new jail site comes into play, the existing jail site wouldn't seem to be easy to repurpose. Seems it might come a tumbling down, making for another nice project site not so far north of their new hotel in the FJ space.

This building is not only a mess for it's intended purpose, repurposing it would be even a bigger challenge.

It has very narrow window slits engineered into it's structure, among other limitations.

Keep in mind that even with all the development along 10th & 13th in Midtown, very few of those streets have been redone and just try walking from the CBD. Terrible or non-existent sidewalks, vacant lots everywhere, dilapidated structures, etc.

Then let's stroll over to Deep Deuce and East Bricktown, where you have these same issues.

THEN let's take on Core to Shore, a huge area where we are investing a hundred million just for a park and yet the surrounding areas are worse than west downtown.


I agree about the walkability (or lack thereof) of those areas, however none of those as of yet have a logical connection to P180 streetscapes (although P180 does creep into midtown on Harvey, Robinson and along 5th) where as Main and Sheridan just kind of stop. I was only advocating the continuation. (Similarly one could argue for the continuation of P180 up Harvey and/or Robinson, which would be fine by me, and would be a benefit to OCU law).

Pete, your posts today seem to indicate that you think this is all a big mistake and are hoping that 21c will change their mind and pick a better location.
Is that the case?

I understand your concerns, and certainly they are all valid points. But there is not one thing that you pointed out that isn't perfectly well known to Craig Greenberg and the others at 21c involved in selecting the Fred Jones Building. And they are still going ahead. That speaks volumes to me.

Remember, they already cut about 40% of the original scope of P180 which is why there isn't much connection between the existing work and the other urban districts.

I'm saying that sort of thing should be done first, long before we go off in yet another direction.

I am too starting to sour to the location of this hotel. This would be so much better if it were to compliment one of the already existing districts rather than be the anchor for an entirely new one. Part of OKC's problem is no critical mass. There are several districts all competing right now and in the end there needs to be winners and losers and the winners will need to take it to the next level.

Wish they would've built new on the canal corner.

Hotel Black, First National, Rock Island Plow, Hightower, 1101 N. Broadway, Mayfair Apartments, Dowell Center (remember, it has a historical facade under that cladding)... Lots of smaller, historical buildings that could have space added.

They have also done new construction (Bentonville).

Remember, they already cut about 40% of the original scope of P180 which is why there isn't much connection between the existing work and the other urban districts.

I'm saying that sort of thing should be done first, long before we go off in yet another direction.

I agree much was cut, but I thought that was all in the CBD. When I go back to early posts in the P180 thread (in particular post #70), I don't really see that much intended interconnectivity in the original planning, though I only went 3 pages into the thread, so that may have changed, but my memory just isn't that good.

They cut almost all of EKG which would have provided a huge link between Bricktown and the CBD.

And even though P180 dollars were never allocated for this, try walking on Dewey, Lee or Shartel north of 5th up towards Midtown. The sidewalks are either completely gone or deplorable.


My point is that why would we spend millions on yet ANOTHER area when a good chunk of the main part of our downtown -- and a linkage between areas with hundreds of millions in private investment with much more possible -- looks like post WWII Germany?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/dewey.JPG

Best place IMO would be the U-Haul building in B-Town.....now that would be the perfect location.

Hotel Black, First National, Rock Island Plow, Hightower, 1101 N. Broadway, Mayfair Apartments, Dowell Center (remember, it has a historical facade under that cladding)... Lots of smaller, historical buildings that could have space added.

They have also done new construction (Bentonville).

I agree. Midtown would be perfect for this if it were to be new construction. If not, there are plenty of other choices that would help out existing recovering districts downtown. Even Lower Bricktown if they were able to strike a deal with Hogan for some of the parking lots would be better than way out in the middle of nowhere.

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this is a big gamble.

I actually drove past this area on Sunday just to see what it was like. Lots of "dead space", near jail, only activity is industrial firms, significant homeless population (a lot of which were pushed westward when midtown and SoSA was cleaned up). The area is just nowhere close to being stabilized. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in to listed to 21c's decision making. Are these hotels pretty self sufficient and people wouldn't really be leaving? Because that's the only reason I could think of in which they wouldn't be bothered by the surrounding areas. But hey if they think they can be a leader in revitalizing the area then go for it.

In a perfect world, this would be about 2 or 3 blocks to the south and east so it could at least be closer to Film Row.

Best place IMO would be the U-Haul building in B-Town.....now that would be the perfect location.

That would be awesome. I doubt U-Haul would sell though. They seem intent on keeping that location.

My point is that why would we spent millions on yet ANOTHER area when a good chunk of the main part of our downtown -- and a linkage between areas with hundreds of millions in private investment with much more possible -- looks like post WWII Germany?

Couldn't agree more. I get depressed every time I go to Midtown. Despite all the progress, there are still far too many boarded up buildings and urban prairie to say the district is anywhere close to having "arrived." I see huge potential in that area and if all resources were focused on just a few areas like Midtown, Uptown, Auto Alley, and eventually Core2Shore we could end up with something really awesome. Or, we could end up with twice as many half-arsed "districts" that don't even come close to measuring up with the urban districts in cities half the size of OKC. It's pretty simple when you get down to it.

Remember TIF funds (and no doubt other incentives) are part of this, so the City has been and will be actively involved in this whole deal.

So, why would they steer them here?


And BTW, the Farmer's Market is another half mile away and separated by a blighted area of semi-industrial properties (and old I-40 footprint). If the City is planning to spend a bunch of public funds in this area, I may flip my lid. There are so many needs in the areas where there has been considerable public and private investment, with plenty more to come. It's not like Midtown, Bricktown and Core to Shore are close to done and we need to go running off to throw millions -- and personnel resources -- in an area that is way premature.

How about letting the central city fill in a bit and grow towards these areas, first?

Remember TIF funds (and no doubt other incentives) are part of this, so the City has been and will be actively involved in this whole deal.

So, why would they steer them here?


And BTW, the Farmer's Market is another half mile away and separated by a blighted area of semi-industrial properties (and old I-40 footprint). If the City is planning to spend a bunch of public funds in this area, I may flip my lid. There are so many needs in the areas where there has been considerable public and private investment, with plenty more to come. It's not like Midtown, Bricktown and Core to Shore are close to done and we need to go running off to throw millions -- and personnel resources -- in an area that is way premature.

How about letting the central city fill in a bit and grow towards these areas, first?

So the city should deny TIF funding? Which would effectively kill the project.

Remember TIF funds (and no doubt other incentives) are part of this, so the City has been and will be actively involved in this whole deal.

So, why would they steer them here?


And BTW, the Farmer's Market is another half mile away and separated by a blighted area of semi-industrial properties (and old I-40 footprint). If the City is planning to spend a bunch of public funds in this area, I may flip my lid. There are so many needs in the areas where there has been considerable public and private investment, with plenty more to come. It's not like Midtown, Bricktown and Core to Shore are close to done and we need to go running off to throw millions -- and personnel resources -- in an area that is way premature.

How about letting the central city fill in a bit and grow towards these areas, first?

I think whoever is making these decisions needs to take a trip to Louisville, Columbus, or Charlotte to learn how important critical mass is to developing an urban district and why it's best to keep public focus and incentives on Bricktown, the CBD, Midtown/Auto Alley, and Uptown until they are more complete. I understand the city wants to revitalize the west end and the farmers market, but let's make the existing "meh" districts awesome before moving resources to new areas.

So the city should deny TIF funding? Which would effectively kill the project.

I'm not saying that; I'm thrilled for this project.

I'm just saying that it is hard to understand given all the other possibilities and needs in OKC.


I will also say that I have a lot of respect and trust in the Alliance for Economic Development and Cathy O'Connor in particular. I know she has been involved in this, so I'm sure there is plenty of solid thought and planning that is going into this.

try walking on Dewey, Lee or Shartel north of 5th up towards Midtown. The sidewalks are either completely gone or deplorable.

I live in Midtown, and I've walked from 13th all the way down to the boathouse, with many destinations in between. I very much understand the ridiculousness of those streets.

I like the idea of the U-Haul building instead (even though I know there won't be a change). What's the square footage? Is it comparable?

^

Shawn, I certainly didn't mean to call you out in any way. You are one of the people that have committed themselves to downtown by living there and being actively involved. I meant to aim my comments at anyone reading the thread. :)


And besides those streets and sidewalks being ridiculous, they are also down-right embarrassing. Every time I come to town all excited to see all the new happenings, I pass through those areas and shake my head at how bad it still looks.

Bridging the existing districts where there has been a lot of investment and where there is still tons of potential (Midtown, AA, CBD, DD, Bricktown, etc.) should be a priority long before we go off in a bunch of new directions. I still feel this way about Core to Shore, too, but we're already committed on the park, so might as well see it through.

It's cool. I know, was just saying.

I definitely agree existing districts should come first in terms of general priority. But I wouldn't be hurt with doing main and sheridan as part of an incentive package because they eventually need to be done anyway.

Pete, do you think there is anything that can be done at this point to change the location of this hotel? If so, what?

Sounds like the deal is done and I doubt anyone wants to consider another location at this point.

However, it will be very interesting to see what is tied into all of this in terms of further incentives, possible other developments, etc.

Also, it will be interesting to find out how this all evolved and how they ended up at this site in the first place.

Remember TIF funds (and no doubt other incentives) are part of this, so the City has been and will be actively involved in this whole deal.

So, why would they steer them here?


And BTW, the Farmer's Market is another half mile away and separated by a blighted area of semi-industrial properties (and old I-40 footprint). If the City is planning to spend a bunch of public funds in this area, I may flip my lid. There are so many needs in the areas where there has been considerable public and private investment, with plenty more to come. It's not like Midtown, Bricktown and Core to Shore are close to done and we need to go running off to throw millions -- and personnel resources -- in an area that is way premature.

How about letting the central city fill in a bit and grow towards these areas, first?

Pete, what would the criteria be for Not qualifying / being denied TIF funding?

It's cool. I know, was just saying.

I definitely agree existing districts should come first in terms of general priority. But I wouldn't be hurt with doing main and sheridan as part of an incentive package because they eventually need to be done anyway.

I never understood why we did so much of Main in the first place at the expense of much more heavily-traveled and developed streets.

Sheridan was a little different because most of that was not part of P180.

What benefits are there to this area? I see several.

First, they have easy interstate access from Western. They also have a lot of parking on Fred Jones family-owned lots nearby. While they won't immediately have great access to downtown amenities, they're only a 4 block walk from the Preftakes block. They aren't that far away.

Second, they will be about a block from the new Boulevard. Like the interstate, they'll have easy car access.

Third, the Fred Jones family owns a lot of land in the area and has the money to develop it. 21c are clearly working very closely with the family, so I would anticipate there is the potential for something else to materialize there.

Fourth, it's two blocks from the Main Street Arcade, which is supposed to be being redeveloped and could turn into something pretty cool. I would expect that if this and the Preftakes block are redeveloped, that could spur a lot of changes down Main St. It's true there's a sea of parking along that street, but it's only one block up from the successful developments on Film Row.

21c and the city are probably counting on this being one of the big steps to rejuvenating Main. Deep Deuce will be completely full by the time this hotel opens. Automobile Alley will be nearly full. Midtown will be in much better shape and will be better connected, and will have a huge number of apartments that will be about to hit the market. It's not unreasonable to think that this will be the next area the city targets.

I am curious how long it will take for development to just west across Classen. This makes the development of the Sunshine Cleaners building just NW of this that much more interesting. Like someone mentioned on the Sunshine Cleaners thread, it would make for a great beer garden for COOP.

hoya, very well-reasoned.

I suppose another way to look at this (as opposed to a missed opportunity for a more developed area) is that we are darn lucky that an operation like this is willing to make such a massive investment in this building, otherwise it and that area might sit untouched for another couple of decades.


I just get worked up when tax payer dollars and City officials are involved, because I (we) have a fundamental distrust based on how things have been decided in the past. However, as I said, I really do respect Cathy O'Connor and hope there is much more to this than meets the eye.

What benefits are there to this area? I see several.

First, they have easy interstate access from Western. They also have a lot of parking on Fred Jones family-owned lots nearby. While they won't immediately have great access to downtown amenities, they're only a 4 block walk from the Preftakes block. They aren't that far away.

Second, they will be about a block from the new Boulevard. Like the interstate, they'll have easy car access.

Third, the Fred Jones family owns a lot of land in the area and has the money to develop it. 21c are clearly working very closely with the family, so I would anticipate there is the potential for something else to materialize there.

Fourth, it's two blocks from the Main Street Arcade, which is supposed to be being redeveloped and could turn into something pretty cool. I would expect that if this and the Preftakes block are redeveloped, that could spur a lot of changes down Main St. It's true there's a sea of parking along that street, but it's only one block up from the successful developments on Film Row.

21c and the city are probably counting on this being one of the big steps to rejuvenating Main. Deep Deuce will be completely full by the time this hotel opens. Automobile Alley will be nearly full. Midtown will be in much better shape and will be better connected, and will have a huge number of apartments that will be about to hit the market. It's not unreasonable to think that this will be the next area the city targets.

Good points. I am sure the city is thinking about this from a long-term perspective. Does anybody see the existing districts to be fully gentrified by 2017ish to justify going in a new direction that soon?

What do the people who own the FJ Plant also own in the area? Do they own any of the buildings to the south of it? We need to get Chip Fudge to weigh in on all this.

If I understand it they own a lot of the surrounding area (with the City being the other land owner) - AND - these are the same people who own the land where the Convention Center is planned. Land swap? Big cash payment that has to be spent somewhere?

It is definitely a risk for the 21c people. I'm not a risk taker but I appreciate those who are. I would think it will be at least 2020 before this area is a place you really want to walk around.

Now, on a personal note, I'm kinda cheap and I have parked on the street (for free) in this area for the past 5 years. I've walked to work downtown every day and have never had any safety issues at all. Now I'm probably not ordinary in that regard, willing to walk about 8 blocks every morning and evening just to save $30 a month in parking fees. But the area is safe.

If 21c is willing to go through a few tough years in the beginning, they could have an amazing location and a lot of success. I guess it depends on how big a risk you are willing to take.

It is definitely a risk for the 21c people. I'm not a risk taker but I appreciate those who are. I would think it will be at least 2020 before this area is a place you really want to walk around.

Now, on a personal note, I'm kinda cheap and I have parked on the street (for free) in this area for the past 5 years. I've walked to work downtown every day and have never had any safety issues at all. Now I'm probably not ordinary in that regard, willing to walk about 8 blocks every morning and evening just to save $30 a month in parking fees. But the area is safe.

If 21c is willing to go through a few tough years in the beginning, they could have an amazing location and a lot of success. I guess it depends on how big a risk you are willing to take.

I used to do that at OU. I put my bike on the back of the car, park several blocks away for free, and ride the last 1/4 mile.

Well, they could have come to OKC without nearly this sort of risk, so I still don't completely get it.

I suspect there are two big incentives for them to take this particular site: 1) The building is amazing -- they probably fell in love with it; and 2) The Jones family may have made them an outstanding deal.

Fantastic too see a development of such caliber coming to OKC. Will be very interesting to follow given the pioneering aspect of this location.

I thought the historic facade under the Dowell Center was no more after it was "modernized" in the 50s?

If I understand it they own a lot of the surrounding area (with the City being the other land owner) - AND - these are the same people who own the land where the Convention Center is planned. Land swap? Big cash payment that has to be spent somewhere?

Wasn't there talk about the family initially wanting to do some kind of mixed use housing on the CC site? Maybe they'll do that on the properties adjacent to the 21c now.

This building is only 2 blocks from the Hart building, 3 blocks from Joey's/Paramout. With the pace of growth on Film Row, I can see many more of the existing storefronts on Sheridan and Main getting filled with new restaurants and offices in the next 3 years. Imagine staying at this hotel during deadcenter Film Festival.

The location is one block from Sheridan streetscape improvements (Main & Shartel) and two blocks from Project 180 (Main & Lee).

I wouldn't want to lose a chance to redevelop a building like this into something amazing over one or two blocks of extra walking distance.

I'd really like to see a development (residential) built on the lot across and north of this. Something else to view out the hotel window besides the Oklahoma County Jail--not that any out of towners would know what it is. Will be nice if we hear that the family is actually looking to invest in some of their empty lots.

I'd really like to see a development (residential) built on the lot across and north of this. Something else to view out the hotel window besides the Oklahoma County Jail--not that any out of towners would know what it is. Will be nice if we hear that the family is actually looking to invest in some of their empty lots.

I know a couple that literally won't go to downtown OKC. Why? Because the jail is there and they are afraid of a prison riot and the prisoners escaping and rioting through Bricktown killing at will. I'm serious.

Well, those are probably the kind of people who think too much money from MAPS is going to the downtown. What a shame to miss all the fun though. They don't even go to Thunder games? That usually is the thing that will get anyone downtown.

I'd really like to see a development (residential) built on the lot across and north of this. Something else to view out the hotel window besides the Oklahoma County Jail--not that any out of towners would know what it is. Will be nice if we hear that the family is actually looking to invest in some of their empty lots.

I figured that if we're forced to build a new jail we should turn the old one into housing. At least you know you can get out if there's a fire. Given the propensity of developers for these short names like LEVEL, the Edge, etc, I figured we could come up with a good name for it: The Cell, the Lock-up, Busted. Something like that.

I know a couple that literally won't go to downtown OKC. Why? Because the jail is there and they are afraid of a prison riot and the prisoners escaping and rioting through Bricktown killing at will. I'm serious.

Those people are stupid.

. . for Heaven's sake. ..the Civic Center is almost within spitting distance of the jail. Kudos to the "brave souls" who show up for the Phil, Pops, and all the other events that take place at the Civic Center. . .and " up the block" at the OKCMOA. I don't think "Downtown" is lusting for those "kind" of folks anyway. . . their loss. not ours.

I know a couple that literally won't go to downtown OKC. Why? Because the jail is there and they are afraid of a prison riot and the prisoners escaping and rioting through Bricktown killing at will. I'm serious.

Quoting Stanley Tucci from Devil Wears Prada: "What sad little people."

Well, they could have come to OKC without nearly this sort of risk, so I still don't completely get it.

I suspect there are two big incentives for them to take this particular site: 1) The building is amazing -- they probably fell in love with it; and 2) The Jones family may have made them an outstanding deal.

Clearly it was the sales job put on by Fred Hall. Hard to find fault with this project; it's going to be a big win for OKC.

Good points. I am sure the city is thinking about this from a long-term perspective. Does anybody see the existing districts to be fully gentrified by 2017ish to justify going in a new direction that soon?

Fully gentrified? Probably not. Gentrified enough? Yes.

I figured that if we're forced to build a new jail we should turn the old one into housing.

Prison Hotels: A Growing Trend (PHOTOS) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/23/prison-hotels-uk_n_3466047.html)

It would also make good dorm rooms for a downtown university campus.

Steve makes some good points about the location in his followup story.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/3908548?embargo=1


But one question kept popping up after I broke the story Sunday in The Oklahoman: How can an upscale hotel and art museum open up in such a desolate section of downtown?

It's a fair question. A decade ago, any development west of Walker Avenue would have prompted curiosity and bewilderment. The area stretching from Reno Avenue to Main Street between Walker and Western avenues was littered with abandoned buildings frequented by vagrants.


Deep Deuce in 1993 was a wasteland of empty lots and boarded-up buildings. Bricktown was a struggling, aspiring entertainment district. The Central Business District was dead at night and on weekends. Automobile Alley also was a desolate stretch of boarded up buildings.

Skeptics had their doubts in 1993 and have since been proven wrong. And those who can't see the opportunity ahead with the Fred Jones property (a very cool, authentic 1916 Ford Model T plant) fail to understand and observe what is already transpiring.

Downtown is already growing to the west. The future John W. Rex Elementary School and the Hunsucker Law Firm building are both rising from the ground along Sheridan at Walker Avenue. Those two buildings alone will erase the scar


Have no doubt, the family won't sit on their remaining properties long once the deal with 21c Museum Hotels is completed. That possibility alone makes the museum-hotel proposal far more significant to the development of the west edge of downtown than many may realize.

Three questions

1. Which plots in the immediate area do the owners of the FJ building also own?

2. Are they currently developing in other areas of the city?

3. Which plots of land does the city own in the immediate area?

Steve makes some good points about the location in his followup story.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/3908548?embargo=1

Eh…Bricktown got so much of the development in the late 90s early 2000s, and Deep Deuce has nabbed a majority of the more recent major development up until the last 2 years. For sure there were not near the number of areas in the city being developed when DD and BT really got going. Now you've got Midtown, Auto Alley, Finishing out Deep Deuce, some things in Bricktown, 23rd, Plaza, Western, C2S. There's just 5x the amount of competition from other districts for developers to consider than DD and BT had to deal with.

It's all certainly possible, but the economy, local and national, is going to have to strengthen over the next 5 years and serious amounts of outside capital are going to need to be coming in if we're going to stretch this far west in the short term.

Also, if you're using 1993 as the start date and coming all the way to 2008 when DD really started getting some momentum, you're talking about 15 years. 21c doesn't have 15 years for this area to get working. If this area doesn't get major development in the next 5, I fear 21c is going to be less than impressed with OKC.

On a more positive note, they did put up that RFP for the lot off RSK and, what was it, Dewey/Lee or Lee/Shartel? That will also hopefully be a solid proposal that will help spur on the west side of DT.

Also, Steve did not break this story. We did, days before his Sunday article.

Here are the properties owned by the Jones family:

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/4002d1372964752-fred-jones-building-fredjones2.jpg

Imagine staying at this hotel during deadcenter Film Festival.

Heck, imagine it being added to the venue list! (since they specifically mention film screenings as one of the event types they'd host)

Pioneering developers pointing west in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/pioneering-developers-pointing-west-in-oklahoma-city/article/3908548)
(Mobile)

Teo, I don't think the downtown districts "compete" with each other as much as you represent. I believe development in district A and/or B makes development in district C an easier sell to users, residents, investors, and bankers. Bricktown stagnated for a while, yet now seems to be gaining as much or more momentum as it's ever had, despite (because of?) major development in other districts. Downtown is downtown is downtown, or - put another way - a high tide floats all boats.

I know a couple that literally won't go to downtown OKC. Why? Because the jail is there and they are afraid of a prison riot and the prisoners escaping and rioting through Bricktown killing at will. I'm serious.

your parents?