I really like 21c going into the Fred Jones Building. When Pete first posted that he heard it may go into the Fred Jones Building, I couldn't help but do a small, subtle fist pump.

I really like 21c going into the Fred Jones Building. When Pete first posted that he heard it may go into the Fred Jones Building, I couldn't help but do a small, subtle fist pump.

That's funny. Any particular reason why? Do you have an affinity for that old building or that area?

I really like 21c going into the Fred Jones Building. When Pete first posted that he heard it may go into the Fred Jones Building, I couldn't help but do a small, subtle fist pump.

It's better than I could have hoped for. The Hotel Black being redone would have been cool, but it will be redeveloped no matter what. I had thought the Fred Jones Building might stay empty for a long time.

^

I agree completely -- a stunning turn of events that no one thought possible for at least another five years.

Got to give credit to Chip Fudge (and others, like Dunlap Codding and the Paramount folks) for getting Film Row to the point that something like this is even possible.


It also means that Main Street really needs to pick up it's game; and the fact we will be using taxpayer money to build a fortress of an elevation for the new police station now looks even more misguided.

Speaking for myself, I like the idea of the museum being open 24/7. I don't always sleep well and one does grow tired of Waffle House or IHoP as a goto time killer.

Does make me wonder ... will the most transient among us develop a deeper appreciation for the arts? If so, at least I'll have some company.

...It also means that Main Street really needs to pick up it's game; and the fact we will be using taxpayer money to build a fortress of an elevation for the new police station now looks even more misguided.

I agree and have been thinking the same thing as thus development has been revealed. Just a few weeks ago some were saying in the police station thread that it wasn't especially important for the area around the police station to be walkable.

Yet as this hotel comes online a only a block from the proposed station, it will become more obvious that we are creating an unnecessary pedestrian disconnect from places like the Civic Center, the OKC National Memorial and the NW part of downtown. Will it be possible to walk from one place to the other? Of course. But will the sidewalk draw a person there, or make them feel especially safe walking that way? No.

As a reminder, this is the Main Street facade of the new police station:

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r960-7d8369a9052d3aa3264e325c4f423cc9.jpg

^ ugh

^ ugh

The 60s called. They want their bad architecture back.

The 60s called. They want their bad architecture back.

Even the 60's doesn't want that anymore. The City needs to start holding itself to a higher standard.

Why oh why can't we get this...

http://edmondok.com/PhotoGallery/39/20111730%20Edmond%20PSC.jpg

...because too many people in charge in OKC have a 'sophistication and style' deficit. As someone else said, the 'culture of cheapness" is rooted in OKC.

That's funny. Any particular reason why? Do you have an affinity for that old building or that area?

I've been in & around the western edge of downtown throughout my life. My dad was in that restoration church (on Linwood Blvd) for a couple of years before he died & when I would go to see him, we would always travel around that area & the Fred Jones Building always grabbed me.

...because too many people in charge in okc have a 'sophistication and style' deficit. As someone else said, the 'culture of cheapness" is rooted in okc.

nm.

...or it might be that it's 2013 and a building design like the EPD's version doesn't fit with this day and age of lunatic, 15 minutes of fame psychos out there. Could the design better fit the streetscape? Yes; but if I where working in that building dealing with certain people with nothing to loose, the more security the better.

You could basically shoot up the whole front entrance of the EPD and not even leave the car. Hell, if you planned it out right you could even shoot the place up then make the next green light. So i'm sure that plays more of a part when it comes to these designs than what people on the internet hope and wish these sort of places would look like. Safety first; accessibility second (GOLDEN RULE).

There are people out there that look at things in a broader vision and the developers of this project know this will be a great area....with or without the jail.

nm - getting off topic

There are people out there that look at things in a broader vision and the developers of this project know this will be a great area....with or without the jail.

You're right...and wrong. Looking at things in a broader vision can/should also mean that the City and developers work to ensure that each piece works together to elevate - rather than diminish - the neighborhood as a whole.

No question the area will still be great, but that will now to some extent be IN SPITE of the police station rather than (potentially) BECAUSE of it.

And the whole "you fantasizing hacks on the Internet know nothing about security and there is no way to build a secure police building that also has a good street presence" is a straw argument. WTC-1 (the Freedom Tower) INTENTIONALLY LOCATED on street frontage (rather than in a huge plaza like the previous twin towers) to make a statement about engaging with the city around it despite its inarguable status as a major target of terrorists. Is it ridiculously hardened? Of course. But paradoxically it also is being built to interact directly with the street.

Just because you can't think of a way to make it work with the street AND be safe doesn't meant a talented architect or urban planner could not do so.

Finally, regarding the Edmond building, it's fine for Edmond because of style of the the surrounding neighborhood, but would be thoroughly inappropriate and gimmicky for the OKC center, where that particular style of territorial-era architecture has not existed for more than half a century.

There. Did I manage to piss EVERYBODY off?

Wow, didn't realize the galleries were free. This will be a world class downtown amenity.

I will check out the one down in Cincy sometime.

As a reminder, this is the Main Street facade of the new police station:

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r960-7d8369a9052d3aa3264e325c4f423cc9.jpg

Oh my, that is going to be ugly. I actually appreciate the front perspective of this project bc I do appreciate art moderne/international/mid century.

However it's not a particular arch style, but rather the lack of any, that makes this rear view difficult to look at. The building has no street interaction at all.

I've always liked that old Fred Jones building. Ever since I was a kid. For years I've thought that place would make great loft or studio apartments.

...or it might be that it's 2013 and a building design like the EPD's version doesn't fit with this day and age of lunatic, 15 minutes of fame psychos out there. Could the design better fit the streetscape? Yes; but if I where working in that building dealing with certain people with nothing to loose, the more security the better.

You could basically shoot up the whole front entrance of the EPD and not even leave the car. Hell, if you planned it out right you could even shoot the place up then make the next green light. So i'm sure that plays more of a part when it comes to these designs than what people on the internet hope and wish these sort of places would look like. Safety first; accessibility second (GOLDEN RULE).You obviously have no clue what so ever to the specifics of the new Edmond Police Station. No one is going to successfully "shoot up the entrance". I'm not even going to get into it though.

What I find interesting is the proximity of this project to the much-debated Classen, Western, Reno intersection with the boulevard.

Excellent point.

I really hope the reuse of this building amps up an effort to redo Classen to make it more pedestrian friendly. That road does not need three lanes going either way. Widen the median, make it prettier and add bike lanes and sidewalks on either side, especially from Reno up to 23rd street.

I really hope the reuse of this building amps up an effort to redo Classen to make it more pedestrian friendly. That road does not need three lanes going either way. Widen the median, make it prettier and add bike lanes and sidewalks on either side, especially from Reno up to 23rd street.

I drive Classen too and From Work every day. On most days I wish it had 4 lanes going each way. Classen is also the snow route.

This is incredibly exciting. It's worth it to watch the NewsOK video that accompanies Steve's article. The owners really seem to get it. This will be OKC's coolest downtown hotel.

I really hope the reuse of this building amps up an effort to redo Classen to make it more pedestrian friendly. That road does not need three lanes going either way. Widen the median, make it prettier and add bike lanes and sidewalks on either side, especially from Reno up to 23rd street.

Classen south of 23rd could use a big dose of pretty. This sounds like a good idea to me.

Somebody else mentioned making Classen a very bike-friendly thoroughfare and I think that is a genius idea.

Would really link all the historic neighborhoods farther north and west to the central core.

It would be great if we could find another corporate benefactor to do a Project 180 for bikes.

Classen could be a bike corridor all the way to NW Expressway and with the huge ROW and medians on NW it could be turned into a bike corridor as well. I have friends in Okarche that bike to OKC on the weekends.

Somebody else mentioned making Classen a very bike-friendly thoroughfare and I think that is a genius idea.

Would really link all the historic neighborhoods farther north and west to the central core.

It would be great if we could find another corporate benefactor to do a Project 180 for bikes.

And if this really does spawn a complete revitalization of the western core, Classen becomes a great western edge to create an "outer loop" for streetcar expansion:

Park / Convention Center > Film Row > Up Classen > 16th / Plaza District > Asian District > 23rd / Uptown > Broadway > Bricktown > Park / Convention Center

Then we'd kind of have a CBD / Midtown Loop, a Park / Uptown Loop, avoid the fight with HH, and end up with a very connected core. It also kind of creates the opportunity for park and ride lots at the ends of the boulevard, so people driving into the city could ditch their cars and ride public transit to their destination(s) without having to deal with or clog up the central grid.

This would also help link Midtown/Mesta Park with Classen-Ten-Penn/Plaza/Gatewood/OCU too. That seven lane buffer is obviously a physical and mental barrier between these areas.

Somebody else mentioned making Classen a very bike-friendly thoroughfare and I think that is a genius idea.

Would really link all the historic neighborhoods farther north and west to the central core.

It would be great if we could find another corporate benefactor to do a Project 180 for bikes.

http://www.okctalk.com/transportation/29005-minneapolis-midtown-greenway.html

I drive Classen too and From Work every day. On most days I wish it had 4 lanes going each way. Classen is also the snow route.

This could be fixed with a few things: the new boulevard (even thought it is going east to west, not north to south) and timing of lights. My wife drove that every day for three years and said it was busy, but not so busy a lane couldn't be taken out.

Classen could be a bike corridor all the way to NW Expressway and with the huge ROW and medians on NW it could be turned into a bike corridor as well. I have friends in Okarche that bike to OKC on the weekends.

I never understood why the city has never added bike lanes and sidewalks to NW Expressway from Classen all the way to Council. There is plenty of room on either side and that could link Lake Hefner trails, down Expressway to Classen to the River.

I never understood why the city has never added bike lanes and sidewalks to NW Expressway from Classen all the way to Council. There is plenty of room on either side and that could link Lake Hefner trails, down Expressway to Classen to the River.

I agree with this EXCEPT for at the May interchange. Those short ramps from May where cars speed into the NW Exp traffic with minimal looking would be a bicyclists death trap.

I agree with this EXCEPT for at the May interchange. Those short ramps from May where cars speed into the NW Exp traffic with minimal looking would be a bicyclists death trap.

Good point. At that area, you would probably need to bring the path south and cross at the light at May in front the of the Target. Then, continue the path on either side, hugging the E-S or N-E ramps.

This is the direction we need to continue to follow. Outside investment that sees the potential ( ROI ) in our City & State. Looking forward to seeing this project's ribbon cutting. Welcome 21c Museum!

Do we have any kind of timeline? Or any examples to base our expectations on (such as how long it took their hotels in other cities to come online)?

I suspect this will take a while due to the need to cleanup a building that was used for manufacturing. I bet that will take close to a year itself.

Also, before that even starts they are likely to be applying for all types of incentives.

Once construction actually began on the Cincinnati property, it was about 1.5 years.

My guess would be opening sometime in 2016.

I agree with this EXCEPT for at the May interchange. Those short ramps from May where cars speed into the NW Exp traffic with minimal looking would be a bicyclists death trap.

Tunnels, obviously. Adds expense I know.

I still think this is a very odd location...

I took a look at their Louisville and Cincinnati locations and they are both very close to the heart of those respective CBD's in areas much more dense.

Plus, there is so much nothingness between Fred Jones and everything else, and what is there -- and not moving -- is not appealing: the county jail, police station, etc.


I worry this will be too much of an island for an extended period of time. It's very hard to imagine that much change in the next few years.

On the other hand, here's hoping that this announcement will ramp up development, planning and cleanup in the immediate area.

Well, if they don't finish construction for 3 years, that will give a bit of time for that part of the city to develop a little more. The 21c people also mentioned in an interview that they're happy to start the revitalization process, and seemed to understand that it may take a few years before the surrounding area really catches up. I would presume that there'll be a push to have a Classen streetcar line, in part to connect this hotel. I could see two or three more places to eat spring up in that area, to serve people staying in the hotel. And I'd presume that the City Rescue Mission will be moving elsewhere eventually.

In the VERY least a 21c-sponsored Spokies stop (and probably one on the opposite end of film row) will be needed to coincide with the opening.

Would also be a good interim step to modify the 50 route slightly...

Well, if they don't finish construction for 3 years, that will give a bit of time for that part of the city to develop a little more. The 21c people also mentioned in an interview that they're happy to start the revitalization process, and seemed to understand that it may take a few years before the surrounding area really catches up. I would presume that there'll be a push to have a Classen streetcar line, in part to connect this hotel. I could see two or three more places to eat spring up in that area, to serve people staying in the hotel. And I'd presume that the City Rescue Mission will be moving elsewhere eventually.

That's the thing about OKC. You have to plan for the long term being that the gentrification of the core is really still in its early stages. Within 3-4 years, by the time this hotel opens, film row should be much more developed. The anticipation of the hotel will probably spur development, because this is no small deal at all.

Somebody else mentioned making Classen a very bike-friendly thoroughfare and I think that is a genius idea.

Would really link all the historic neighborhoods farther north and west to the central core.

It would be great if we could find another corporate benefactor to do a Project 180 for bikes.

What if on Classen from downtown through the Asian district you segregated each of the outermost lanes with a curbing and make them into bike lanes which could be still used as emergency exit lanes and snow routes for cars if conditions required? Or do it on the inside lanes and make the medians walkable and with good landscaping.

I saw in the interview they don't mind going into areas that need revitalization, but I'm telling you this location is completely different than anything they have done so far.

Also, the properties between Fred Jones and anything decent are held by dozens of separate owners who have been sitting on them for decades. It's not all the sudden they are all going to agree to sell or develop. And even if I was a developer, there are other parts of town I'd rather focus on than far west downtown.

I absolutely love the concept and the FJ building, but I hate that this will be so far removed from everything else we already have planned for downtown.

Yes, I'm sure this must be part of a bigger plan otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

The good news is that the City does control a good chunk of property along Main Street. The bad news is what they now have planned for the new police station is a terrible design, especially in light of this new development.

I saw in the interview they don't mind going into areas that need revitalization, but I'm telling you this location is completely different than anything they have done so far.

Also, the properties between Fred Jones and anything decent are held by dozens of separate owners who have been sitting on them for decades. It's not all the sudden they are all going to agree to sell or develop. And even if I was a developer, there are other parts of town I'd rather focus on than far west downtown.

I absolutely love the concept and the FJ building, but I hate that this will be so far removed from everything else we already have planned for downtown.

Steve spoke of mind blowing development in the next five years. To me, that means some serious gentrification at a serious pace. I am sure the developers of this 21c know more than we do about what is in store for that specific area. I doubt they would embark on such an ambitious project if they had doubts about the location.

Okay, so this opens in 2016.

Who exactly is going to stay there and what will they do once they arrive?

This property is HALF A MILE from the Myriad Gardens, and that half mile is well dodgy; horrible, crumbling sidewalks, etc. Do you think someone is going to pay a couple hundred dollars a night and then walk the better part of a mile through a rough neighborhood to get to anything downtown has to offer? They could offer a car service but doesn't that defeat the purpose of being downtown in the first place?

Keep in mind, we will soon have over 3,000 hotel rooms downtown, all of which feature infinitely better locations.

And conversely, this is very far removed from the thousand of living units in the downtown area. Virtually everyone coming to the gallery and restaurant will be driving to get there.

I'm sorry, I just don't get this at all. I really hope there is something huge on the horizon that will bridge this massive gap and provide big improvements in infrastructure. But even if that happens, this is still very far removed from 99% of what has already been accomplished downtown.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/fjview.JPG

What do the people who own the FJ Plant also own in the area? Do they own any of the buildings to the south of it? We need to get Chip Fudge to weigh in on all this.

I agree with you Pete. Huge win for OKC but I am still scratching my head on the location.

Remember, before OCU would consider putting their law school here they insisted on a streetcar line. And even then, the deal still fell through.

No way the streetcar goes here now; not for a very long time, anyway.

Even if there is quite a bit of development in this area, this hotel will still be nowhere near most the downtown attractions. What could possibly be built in the surrounding area in the next 5 years that would be any kind of draw?? Maybe a few more restaurants and bars... We'll be very lucky to double what is now in Film Row in that time. How would even that make this area any sort of destination?

I get the hotel itself is cool and interesting but I just can't see any scenario -- even pie-in-the-sky -- where this location makes sense for an up-scale hotel.

I could see office or residential, but a destination hotel?? And I assure you this is a VERY different location than Louisville and Cincy.

So, phase two of the streetcar has is it tentatively going to the OUHSC, correct? With the law firm and the school going in to empty parking lots on Sheridan, I am curious if they know of more developments happening west on Main and Sheridan to provide infill. There are only two buildings on the entire Sheridan, Main, Shartel and Lee block so there is plenty of room for development over there. Also, the main street arcade is currently being worked on (retail if I remember correctly). I am curious about the large empty space directly north of this building and who owns it.

I also thought during the Chip Fudge OKC Central chat he said he was working on expanding west of Shartel...

Incidentally, if the city's part of the deal (aside from tax incentives) were to P180 the streetscapes on Main and Sheridan to Classen, this would be the best time for it, less disruption to businesses that aren't there yet...

And if they did, would they be willing to include the Farmer's Market (seems like a good opportunity to do that).

Important to remember just how much Steve has been pushing the idea that the Farmer's Market is the next big place. Maybe he knows about things that will help all this make more sense...

Yes, Fudge owns the building just west of the Hart and is planning for storage and perhaps some retail in the front. He also said he wants to buy the property directly north of that but the present owner has been stubborn.


But I ask again: What could possibly developed in this area in the next five years that would make this location much better??

Several large housing developments would be a start, but as of now I haven't even heard a hint of anything like that.


And no matter what is built, this building is still a long way from everything else worthwhile in downtown with no plan -- long-term or otherwise -- to even bring the streetcar in that direction.

I also thought during the Chip Fudge OKC Central chat he said he was working on expanding west of Shartel...

Here is the chat transcipt you discussed:

OKC Central Chat transcript, Sept. 20, 2013 | News OK (http://newsok.com/okc-central-chat-transcript-sept.-20-2013/article/3884956)