Sorry, but using the Pythagorean theorem still yields a 212.13 foot straight line distance, so... no banana daiquiri for you! :(

Yeah, I did have the thought (post-post) that C^2 might be the answer ;-)

A hotel establishment is usually a bar/restaurant though and that is permissible right? It's just "class C" liquor licenses i.e. a bar that doesn't serve food that cannot be granted within 300 feet of a church or school as far as I know. I would hate for that to prevent redevelopment of the Hotel Black or hinder it from its potential.

Yeah, I'm wrong.

^

True but remember there was an exception made in Bricktown for ACM@UCO.

That took a change in state law. Sb1218. And it did not provide an exception for schools or churches. Only university's and colleges in a bid district

But also keep in mind the Stage Center Tower is going in right next to the school and will definitely have at least one restaurant, so there will have to be a work-around regardless of One North Hudson. Same goes for the bus station.

They need to just repeal the silly law completely. What good is it possibly serving? Are children slipping into bars after school??

Remember the law only applies to abc 3. Bar. Restaurants with abc 2 are allowed

Parking and liquor laws in the core need to be entirely revamped. You can't have high density development strangled by low to medium density zoning laws.

Also, as to the size of One N. Hudson…wouldn't you just add the old Auto building to the north? Those together are surely big enough (though connecting the two buildings past the first floor may not be feasible.

They have already changed things like parking requirements (in urban districts they are universally waived) and they should do the same with alcohol.

The difference, of course, is that the parking was the jurisdiction of the City and alcohol laws are set by the state.

They have already changed things like parking requirements (in urban districts they are universally waived) and they should do the same with alcohol.

The difference, of course, is that the parking was the jurisdiction of the City and alcohol laws are set by the state.

Even conservative Mary Fallin agreed to waive the alcohol rules for Bricktown. That should be expanded to cover the other urban districts.

Even conservative Mary Fallin agreed to waive the alcohol rules for Bricktown. That should be expanded to cover the other urban districts.

Not just urban districts, though…anywhere where High Density development has a legitimate chance to occur, which includes smaller towns, and both major cities. In OKC, Western is a great example of a street that is affected by sundry zoning laws (state or local). There are so many churches and schools along that stretch, and it's not downtown, so restaurant parking requirements remain stringent…and I imagine there are several other issues that are restraints on developers and good urban development. If I have to have massive amounts of parking to start a restaurant, then, well, that sucks.

Do we know what percentage of these hotels are dedicated to the museum/entertainment aspect of the development and how accessible and useful they are to the local residents?

Not just urban districts, though…anywhere where High Density development has a legitimate chance to occur, which includes smaller towns, and both major cities. In OKC, Western is a great example of a street that is affected by sundry zoning laws (state or local). There are so many churches and schools along that stretch, and it's not downtown, so restaurant parking requirements remain stringent…and I imagine there are several other issues that are restraints on developers and good urban development. If I have to have massive amounts of parking to start a restaurant, then, well, that sucks.

Wow I never knew that. Now I understand why people say the laws favor sprawl. There should be a state law waiving all parking and alcohol ordinances within districts that meet a certain criteria. I wonder how much cool development is actually stifled by these laws.

Do we know what percentage of these hotels are dedicated to the museum/entertainment aspect of the development and how accessible and useful they are to the local residents?

In other cities their gallery/public space is close to 10,000 square feet, which is quite large.

Well, that would help this area to be an Arts District…really hope OKC can land this at that location. The MBG would be unbelievably special with everything you could see and get to within 2 cross-walks.

Well, that would help this area to be an Arts District…really hope OKC can land this at that location. The MBG would be unbelievably special with everything you could see and get to within 2 cross-walks.

I completely agree. I think OKC needs more developments like this to increase the vibrancy of the arts scene here. This will be a HUGE score if it happens. Downtown Louisville is very vibrant and a magnet for creative people, a definite model for OKC. It just so happens that they have one of these hotels.

I don't know what their space needs are, but I've kind of thought that GE moving into the Fred Jones Building would make sense. Would also help jump start westside development.

I completely agree. I think OKC needs more developments like this to increase the vibrancy of the arts scene here. This will be a HUGE score if it happens. Downtown Louisville is very vibrant and a magnet for creative people, a definite model for OKC. It just so happens that they have one of these hotels.

It's kinda funny & ironic. I was reading an article from earlier this month about a new Aloft Hotel to be built in downtown Louisville & it mentioned the Aloft as potential competition to none other than 21c. We have an Aloft, they have a 21c; they're getting an Aloft, we're possibly getting a 21c….

First, the law that was passed was NOT specific to Bricktown. It allows the school (in Bricktown's case ACM@UCO) to waive the distance requirement. It does NOT apply to churches.

Second, as has been pointed out, the distance requirement ONLY pertains to what is licensed in OKC as ABC-3, or liquor-only with no food. An ABC-2 establishment, with 50% or more food sales, could literally locate next door to an urban school or a church.

Third, a hotel would NEVER be licensed ABC-3. Even if they had a bar that was bar only (think Red Piano at the Skirvin), it would SHARE its license with the hotel's restaurant. That is, there would be a single (ABC-2) license issued for the entire hotel. There would not be multiple licences issued throughout the building. Therefore, the bar (even if in a separate room or part of the hotel) would be like the bar area in a restaurant.

It surprises me that there continues to be so much confusion on this board regarding this issue, as it is discussed often.

^

Thanks for the clarification. I'll bookmark this post and cut & paste it next time this issue comes up.

I would be SHOCKED to ever see the Fred Jones building change hands. The Hall family holds Mr. Jones' legacy very dear, and he not only worked in that building on the Model T assembly line as a young man but later bought that building from Henry Ford himself. It's much more than a real estate investment property to them (of which they have plenty of others). I believe we can/will see something great there one day, but I doubt it will involve transfer of ownership. Does anyone recall whether the proposed/abandoned OCU Law relocation to that building involved lease or purchase? I'm betting the former.

That's nice but why not put the building to use? Why dangle it around like an unused ornament?

I didn't say they wouldn't put it to use; in fact I said I expect something great will happen there. I just said that I don't expect they will ever SELL the place. Sheesh, you bothered to quote my post...how about actually READING it? ;)

A video teaser about Steve's upcoming Sunday story:

NewsOK Videos (http://newsok.com/historic-fred-jones-building-into-a-museum-hotel/multimedia/video/2860112247001)

Wow! What a kick start this is going to be for Film Row / West Downtown. The entire downtown footprint is rapidly densifying. Who here would have believed all this would happen even three years ago? Amazing.

Wow! What a kick start this is going to be for Film Row / West Downtown. The entire downtown footprint is rapidly densifying. Who here would have believed all this would happen even three years ago? Amazing.

I agree. This is a game changer for that area.

Excellent news! Although not the location I would have picked. This is the major "Anchor" film row and western DT has been needing. Fantastic! Super Duper!

At long last, the Fred Jones Building has found a new purpose and use -- as a 21c Museum Hotel (http://www.21cmuseumhotels.com/):

NewsOK Videos (http://newsok.com/historic-fred-jones-building-into-a-museum-hotel/multimedia/video/2860112247001)

^^^^like!

Is this the new Hot spot for dt OKC? Film Row and Core to Shore? If I am excited over the development now, I might **** my pants when the Streetcar comes!

In that NewsOK video, president of 21c Museum Hotel, Craig Greenberg, speaks about his admiration for the old Fred Jones building and the opportunity to be a catalyst for redevelopment of Film Row.

So, how did he develop the knowledge and interest of this building and the area? Perhaps it was from this:

Officials, business leaders on GLI GLIDE trip to Oklahoma City, part of Fischer's local-option sales tax push - Insider Louisville (http://insiderlouisville.com/news/2012/10/15/officials-business-leaders-on-gli-glide-trip-to-oklahoma-city-part-of-fischers-local-option-sales-tax-push/)

That was a visit from numerous Louisville businessmen and leaders to Oklahoma City from about a year ago.

Still love those comments about OKC! Stereotypes seem to take awhile to fade1

Here's a quick map that I threw together:

http://dl.dropbox.com/s/pno4ddqg3a4ayt3/FredJonesBuildingMap.jpg

Steve Lackmeyer 10:44 a.m. We will have no shortage of things to talk about during the Christmas holidays.


Guest 11:23 a.m. What are you writing about in your next big story? Be as vague or as specific as the story warrants.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:23 a.m. Something really cool for this Sunday's paper.

This must be one of the Christmas presents Steve alluded to in the live chat. Or rather things we will be talking about for the Christmas season.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Fred%20Jones%20Plant/RAC20100753-.jpg

This is also great news for the old Sunshine Laundry building. Having this nearly across the street will make the building much more appealing.

So, it's confirmed: 21c Museum Hotel to the Fred Jones Building.

One North Hudson will still be redeveloped too, but perhaps it now will be housing rather than a hotel.


It also shows how good the sources are here on this site: 1) We were the first to put out the information about 21c coming to OKC; 2) we were the first to say there was a good chance it was going in the Fred Jones Building; 3) we reaffirmed the Fred Jones information even though it seemed unlikely; 4) I'm very sure that getting this information out there prompted the timing of the official announcement, as until two days ago nobody had talked or even hinted about this and I know for a fact it was extremely hush-hush.

That's a great old photo. About 1925 maybe?

Ok, here it is:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3068/2726606062_b83fc32f3f_o.jpg

Photo by Andrew Shockley (taken July 2008)

Source: Old Ford Assemby Plant | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/25690090@N03/2726606062/)


That's a great old building. But it doesn't scream hotel to me. I can see how a museum could be placed in there. Then again, 21c has done this with other historic buildings, and their hotel concept is a bit different from the norm, so it might be a better fit than I think.

Will be very interesting to see their plans as to how they are going to renovate this.

Keep in mind the Jones family owns much more in the immediate are than just this one building. Will be interesting to see what they do with everything else.

You know they will need considerable parking but what about the warehouse structures?

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/4002d1372964752-fred-jones-building-fredjones2.jpg

Disappointed it's that far away from the action

That building alone is 173,000 square feet, compared to the Colcord at just over 100,000 and they have 108 rooms plus a restaurant and a decent amount of meeting space.

I suspect this building will yield at least 150 rooms, even allowing for a large art gallery.

Disappointed it's that far away from the action

Yes, I was about to say the same thing. Seems a little premature for that area.

As far as Project 180 reconstruction goes on Main St. is Lee right now. On Sheridan, the Film Row streetscaping goes to Shartel. I wonder if there will be work on the streets around the hotel area.

Pretty sure it will be BRINGING the action to its own doorstep. Five years ago, Midtown and the Plaza District were pretty far from the action too.

Thanks to thus project I'm more excited about prospects for West Main, which I have always felt was a sleeping giant.

Regarding Pete's marked-up photo showing FJ land ownership, I truly hope the buildings on Sheridan that make it to the sidewalk are retained. They are worthwhile structures for adaptive reuse.

I still maintain that the building won't change hands. Look for the Halls to be partners in the development.

Yes, I was about to say the same thing. Seems a little premature for that area.

I think it's pretty exciting. Originally I expected that the revitalization effect would slowly creep westward

<---

Now with this amazing new western anchor, the effect should go both ways, with stuff filling in between

---> . . . . <---

Granted, the immediate area around (what will be) the new 21c hotel is not riveting at the moment. But I suspect that will change fairly quickly now.

.....Regarding Pete's marked-up photo showing FJ land ownership, I truly hope the buildings on Sheridan that make it to the sidewalk are retained. They are worthwhile structures for adaptive reuse.

Any ideas?

Clearing out the metal buildings and rehabbing the historical warehouses would make a great bar district.

Tons of parking and removed from any homeowners.

Picture those warehouses with overhead doors leading to big patios... Food truck pulled up, etc.

Any ideas?

Yes...hire a qualified architect sensitive to HP and urban planning issues!

I'm wondering... can we assume this will be a "preservationist" renovation? For example, leaving the "Fred Jones Mfg" signage in place, and the water tower on the roof, etc?

As far as Project 180 reconstruction goes on Main St. is Lee right now. On Sheridan, the Film Row streetscaping goes to Shartel. I wonder if there will be work on the streets around the hotel area.

Interesting question. It sure could use it.

It's probably too early to talk about it now, but it would be cool if the Fred Jones family along with the hotel ownership could work with the city and create some kind of mixed public/private fund to bring P180 style landscaping around the new hotel area.

Interesting location. I wonder how they will handle the paucity of parking in that location?

...One North Hudson will still be redeveloped too, but perhaps it now will be housing rather than a hotel....

Given my choice, I'd prefer a hotel. But either would be great for revitalizing that corner. If it is housing, I hope they put a restaurant (or some such) on top. I want the general public (including me!) to be able to enjoy the views from up there.

I think it's pretty exciting. Originally I expected that the revitalization effect would slowly creep westward

<---

Now with this amazing new western anchor, the effect should go both ways, with stuff filling in between

---> . . . . <---

Granted, the immediate area around (what will be) the new 21c hotel is not riveting at the moment. But I suspect that will change fairly quickly now.

That's what I've been sayin'. This western anchor for OKC is a good thing to help tie in and expand toward the Farmer's Market area, and eventually down into Stockyard City. Downtown is made up of patches with empty nothings in between. This is a great way to connect those empty nothings and turn the fabric of OKC into a quilt.

Why in the world would anyone want to alter the overall look of that building? For this community it is a unique example of that particular type of industrial architecture (save perhaps the much-smaller Sherman Iron Works in Bricktown). It is one of the most inarguable examples of historic architecture left in OKC. An HP-centric approach to the renovation is the only type that makes sense in this particular instance.

That said, the decision will need to be made as to whether the original Ford Motor Company heritage is emphasized (requiring removal of FJ signage) or whether the later (circa WWII) Fred Jones (re)Manufacturing history is celebrated/preserved. I think normally you would want the former, but owing to the longstanding tenure of the current ownership, you're more likely to see the latter, which in this case is fine.

Wow! What a kick start this is going to be for Film Row / West Downtown. The entire downtown footprint is rapidly densifying. Who here would have believed all this would happen even three years ago? Amazing.

I believed it was going to happen. If you think things are booming now - just wait, this is a snowball rolling downhill and it is just getting started (and not just in OKC but on a national scale).

I believed it was going to happen. If you think things are booming now - just wait, this is a snowball rolling downhill and it is just getting started (and not just in OKC but on a national scale).

Maybe not the best choice of phrases given OKC's weather forecast tomorrow... :eek:

j/k

Steve's story.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/3907837?embargo=1


The redevelopment calls for 135 hotel rooms, a contemporary art museum and locally owned restaurant. The building is on the west end of Film Row, and is surrounded by blighted properties.


The tentative partnership agreement between Hall Capital and 21c calls for the hotel group to be lead developer and to also manage the completed hotel and museum. Greenberg visited Oklahoma City last week and started conversations with city, state and federal officials to request a mix of public financing needed to make the project a reality.

Some of the assistance, tax increment financing, historic tax credits and new market tax credits, are similar to funding providing for the renovation of the Skirvin Hilton Hotel in 2006.


Greenberg said the museum displays at all the hotels are free to the public, and the galleries double as event space open to civic groups, film screenings and cultural presentations. The museums are typically open 24 hours a day, seven a days a week.

“One of the really fun things about our museum is a focus on works of all media,” Greenberg said. “We have a lot interactive art, which usually involves a form of video, as well as sound art, paintings and photographs.”


“This building has great history, it has great potential as a hotel museum and restaurant,” Greenberg said. “We welcome the opportunity to become a catalyst for further redevelopment of west downtown and Film Row.”

This thread should probably now be merged with the new thread about the hotel. I posted this in that thread also.

Steve's story.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/3907837?embargo=1


The redevelopment calls for 135 hotel rooms, a contemporary art museum and locally owned restaurant. The building is on the west end of Film Row, and is surrounded by blighted properties.


The tentative partnership agreement between Hall Capital and 21c calls for the hotel group to be lead developer and to also manage the completed hotel and museum. Greenberg visited Oklahoma City last week and started conversations with city, state and federal officials to request a mix of public financing needed to make the project a reality.

Some of the assistance, tax increment financing, historic tax credits and new market tax credits, are similar to funding providing for the renovation of the Skirvin Hilton Hotel in 2006.


Greenberg said the museum displays at all the hotels are free to the public, and the galleries double as event space open to civic groups, film screenings and cultural presentations. The museums are typically open 24 hours a day, seven a days a week.

“One of the really fun things about our museum is a focus on works of all media,” Greenberg said. “We have a lot interactive art, which usually involves a form of video, as well as sound art, paintings and photographs.”

[QUOTE]“This building has great history, it has great potential as a hotel museum and restaurant,” Greenberg said. “We welcome the opportunity to become a catalyst for further redevelopment of west downtown and Film Row.”[/QUOTE

This project makes me wish we were putting in a linear streetcar route from 235 to Classen on Sheridan. I know it is water under the bridge for this phase but I hope (really badly) that someone is considering the transit opportunities of that corridor.

Yes, that would be very cool. That would traverse the heart of downtown from eastmost to westmost points.

At the very least, we've got to have a line running through Film Row at some point. Imagine passing through here:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7401/9780226491_894a83d37d_b_d.jpg

With a stop at (or near) Joey's Pizzeria. :)

135 rooms, eh? Well, Pete's estimate of 150 was a little high, but not by much.

I suspect with that count, the rooms would be quite, well... roomy!

I'm guessing the funding assistance that Greenberg is requesting will be forthcoming in fairly short order. This project seems like a complete slam dunk. The City of OKC could only have hoped for such a good project and tenant for the old building.

It actually seems to be a better fit than the OCU Law School was proposed earlier for that building.