This doesn't restrict you from moving somewhere that you can walk for everything.

I like both options. I like the ability to drive, and want to live and work in a place where I'm not required to drive everywhere. I don't see why I can't have both.

Building a city that is entirely reliant on the automobile just doesn't make good sense.

This doesn't restrict you from moving somewhere that you can walk for everything.

Trudat, but where does this place exist in Oklahoma?

So in 77,000 sq miles the only place with true freedom of movement is a tiny 8 block area.

I never said Deep Deuce was the only place. You're putting words in my mouth.

Fair enough - so let's say there are 80 Deep Deuce type places in Oklahoma (and of course we know there isn't). So in 77,000 sq miles there are only 640 blocks where freedom of movement actually exist? Everywhere else I would have to buy my freedom of movement which depending on location and income can be anywhere from 35% to 50% of take home pay. Does the Tea Party know about this hidden mandate?

Gotta be honest, there is no bigger advocate for public transit than me, but I love a great looking car.

I wish the Tesla Model S was cheaper. In lieu of that, I may get a Mustang. LOL

Mustang..... Vette..., it's amazing what a few curves w/ horsepower can do. The Tesla Model S is there too. They are definately hitting the mark of what the consumer wants.

Fair enough - so let's say there are 80 Deep Deuce type places in Oklahoma (and of course we know there isn't). So in 77,000 sq miles there are only 640 blocks where freedom of movement actually exist? Everywhere else I would have to buy my freedom of movement which depending on location and income can be anywhere from 35% to 50% of take home pay. Does the Tea Party know about this hidden mandate?
No, you can walk anywhere you like (private property excepted). But there is a cost in time and effort. With a car you are paying for convenience, not freedom. Your freedom doesn't go away because its inconvenient. The same holds true regardless of whether you travel by car, horse & buggy, jet, etc.

I'll be sticking with my '07 Ford Five Hundred for a bit. it gets decent gas millage and my wife love driving it. If I could buy new I would get a '14 Taurus.

I have always bought a "practical car". The motorcycle took up the slack. But after driving various cars, the Mustang is for me. If the Tesla was at $30,000 $35,000, I would do that.

Curves, nice engine, Brembo brakes.... and maybe a glass roof for non-hail raining days.

But yeah, if your going to drive around in a bubble, you might as well pick the right bubble for you.

I would opine on which streetcar models are sexy, but that would directly feed into all of the MAPS 3 Transit conspiracy theories propogated by Ed & Company.

I love the idea of mass transit but rail doesn't stop at taco bell drive thru

You eat at Taco Bell? I'm not against fast food per se, but Taco Bell is the butthole of cuisine. It is terrifically bad and practically inedible. You are a "worthy cook?"

I think you could cut fuel consumption, gridlock and pollution in half if not down to a quarter. Just by teaching people better driving habits and steering away from the bankers hours schedules that so many businesses run on these day. Not every business needs to run on a 8-4 or 9-5. In fact many would probably be more profitable if they opened later in the day because more people are out and about.

I think you could cut fuel consumption, gridlock and pollution in half if not down to a quarter. Just by teaching people better driving habits and steering away from the bankers hours schedules that so many businesses run on these day. Not every business needs to run on a 8-4 or 9-5. In fact many would probably be more profitable if they opened later in the day because more people are out and about.

Or let more people telecommute. My job could easily be done from Zanzibar, but I have to be in the building, at my desk, like a good little monkey.

You eat at Taco Bell? I'm not against fast food per se, but Taco Bell is the butthole of cuisine. It is terrifically bad and practically inedible. You are a "worthy cook?"

Yeah I'm no cook. But if you think the Doritos loco taco is "inedible" then I feel sorry for your taste buds.

Curves, nice engine, Brembo brakes.... and maybe a glass roof for non-hail raining days.

So today I went for it. Me loves some "American freedom". lol Streetcar service is my carbon offset! Seriously though, this muscle car gets better gas milage than the Japanese Acura. Can't believe it really!

So today I went for it. Me loves some "American freedom". lol Streetcar service is my carbon offset! Seriously though, this muscle car gets better gas milage than the Japanese Acura. Can't believe it really!
I have a 650 horsepower car that gets 28 mpg on the highway. Anything is possible lol.

lol. what is it?

Just a Pontiac that I've poured a ridiculous amount of money into.

You can get a Corvette well into the 30s if you tune it and drive it right.

Better Access to multiple different types of Transportation = Freedom!

To Attract Millennials, Automakers Look To Smartphones : All Tech Considered : NPR (http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/08/29/216106564/to-attract-millennials-automakers-look-to-smartphones)


Millennials are driving less and getting their licenses and cars later, and automakers are left to figure out how to compete not just with each other but also with consumer electronics. Cars used to represent freedom — now everyone knows, including carmakers, that's not true anymore. For millennials — and almost everyone else — freedom is now the cellphone.

...

"You can't have the car reboot as you're driving down the freeway and all the systems collapse," Anwyl says.

I don't think cars are going to be obsolete from people's lives in the future. I do think you will likely see most families go back to the way things were years ago where most families owned 1-2 cars instead of 2-3 like they do now.

It doesn't help much that the auto industry is producing boring vehicles for the most part. The few that do catch your eye are pieces of junk. Anymore only pickups catch my eye especially now that they are being made with better fuel economy.

Oh man...there are a few smaller trucks with diesel engines coming soon...that's gonna kick arse.

Yet another example of the "freedom" of the automobile.

» Feds Consider Vehicle Location Tracking in New Cars Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind! (http://www.infowars.com/feds-may-require-vehicle-location-tracking-in-new-cars/)

Sustainable Development | Agenda 21 | New World Order (http://www.teaparty911.com/issues/sustainable_development_agenda_21.htm)

Sustainable Development | Agenda 21 | New World Order (http://www.teaparty911.com/issues/sustainable_development_agenda_21.htm)

???

Bicycle lanes are part of a UN plot?

The Electric Sun (http://electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm)

Yet another example of the "freedom" of the automobile.

» Feds Consider Vehicle Location Tracking in New Cars Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind! (http://www.infowars.com/feds-may-require-vehicle-location-tracking-in-new-cars/)

So this could be an issue for those people that own a car this new but don't have a smart phone or OnStar in their car? I mean can't they track you by one of those means already?

Here is an interesting ideas that will probably never happen. (http://io9.com/the-proposal-to-put-a-bikes-only-highway-high-over-lond-1493894692)

Interesting discussion from ODOT:

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/newsmedia/press/2014/14-001_january_commission_wrap-up.pdf

Executive Director Mike Patterson provided a report on transportation funding included in the federal budget agreement approved by Congress and the President in December. A $9.6 billion appropriation was made to the Highway Trust Fund, which had a record low balance in late 2013, to ensure federal funding remains available to the states for highway and bridge projects nationwide. The trust fund has relied on congressional appropriations several times in recent years as declining federal fuel tax revenues have failed to keep pace with increased transportation needs and construction costs.
“This infusion of money from Congress will allow ODOT to continue projects in the Eight-year Construction Work Plan,” Patterson said. “However, we continue to ask Congress for a long-term fix to the Highway Trust Fund that will provide sustainable and reliable transportation funding.”

You know - maybe they should spend a lot less time giving themselves awards for doing their job.


An Oklahoma Department of Transportation project to rehabilitate six miles of I-40 in Seminole County was
recently recognized by the American Concrete Pavement Association with an Excellence in Concrete
Pavement award. At the Monday, Dec. 9 meeting of the Oklahoma Transportation Commission, ACPA
Oklahoma/Arkansas Chapter Executive Director Brent Burwell presented the prestigious Gold Award in the
Divided Highways (Rural) category to ODOT.

Yeah I suppose if you spend half a billion dollars on concrete, that a concrete association will recognize your outstanding service to the concrete community.

Concrete Pavement Association?

WAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

» Ford Motors ?Knows Everyone Who Breaks The Law? Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind! (http://www.infowars.com/ford-motors-knows-everyone-who-breaks-the-law/)

Reading this thread makes me think again about how much the political landscape is changing. There just is no way to label things as left and right. It's becoming more of Corporate Rule versus the populist masses who live somewhere in the middle and are tired of being manipulated by Big Government AND the Global Corporate greed. I know I take many positions today that a few years ago I would have considered "far right"...but honestly....there are just as many positions I have today that not that long ago I would have considered part of the "looney left." I think it's not me changing as much as the fence posts. The populist groundswell isn't from the "right" or the "left" - it's from realization that what we're doing now, and not just with government, but with our culture, Does. Not. Work.

Zookeeper - I am trying to adjust to these changes also. For me it came down to a series of events that caused me re-think the world. I read The Road to Serfdom just about the time the Great Recession hit, then there was the Great Recession, I learned how the Federal Reserve System and currency works, I found Suburban Nation while perusing the library, adopted the New Urbanism, and finally I watched The Pruitt Igoe Myth and eventually Surviving Progress. Along that path everything just came together and clicked and now the mysteries of the world make total sense to me - and you're right, the way we are doing things doesn't work and it is going to collapse. We didn't just start down the wrong recently, we have been on it for a long long time.

Just came across this today.

Out of Gas: Most Americans Can't Afford New Cars - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/out-gas-most-americans-cant-afford-new-cars-n58876)




A car isn't a way to get from point A to point B, it's freedom. The promise of an automobile goes beyond the thrill of the open road or being able to get a late-night pint of ice cream when you want. With a car, you've arrived. And with a car, you can always leave. Social mobility, a new life in a new town, used to be just a black ribbon of interstate away.

Now, amid stagnant wages and a shaky recovery, the average new car price rose last year by $1,536.

"Americans can only afford used cars," said Louis Hyman, an assistant professor in the labor relations, law, and history department at Cornell University. "The recovery has only been for those at the top and not for normal Americans."

...

But just because they can't afford it doesn't mean they aren't signing up to buy it, lured by a credit boom targeting ever riskier auto buyers.

This month, Standard & Poor's warned we could be entering the peak of a sketchy auto loan bubble that sounds suspiciously familiar.

The agency reported the number of loans packaged into securities with borrowers more than a month behind on their payments rose to its highest in three years. Several rounds of stimulus spending have driven investors to buy anything that beats inflation, experts say. That includes securities based on loans to subprime car buyers, and more loans being made to folks who can afford them less.

"We're at a turning point with respect to subprime auto loan performance, similar to where we were in 2006," said the ratings agency in its recent report, referencing the point right before the housing market collapsed.

...

Recent studies show that since the start of the recession, teens are increasingly waiting longer to get their licenses. And of the members of "Generation Y," those born 1977-1994, with no plans to buy or lease a car, 80 percent say they can't afford it.

Dealerships point out that car loans are much smaller than home loans, decreasing risk. And when forced to choose, buyers may skip the payment on their house. But they won't miss the one on their car.

"These are really good gambles for the banks," said Alan Helfman, owner of River Oaks Chrysler Jeep Dodge Ram in Houston, "They'll let the home go before the car. You got to get to work. You got to eat."


So much for freedom.

So much for a vibrant growing economy with promise for all. Guess we just sit back and wait for trickle down economics. LOL.

Just came across this today.

Out of Gas: Most Americans Can't Afford New Cars - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/out-gas-most-americans-cant-afford-new-cars-n58876)



So much for freedom.The same thing could be said for the bus. When you're restricted by having to wait for the bus, how is that freedom? You're forced to wait and sit for a street car or a bus... Cars allow for more freedom because they are not guided by tracks or a predetermined route.

The same thing could be said for the bus. When you're restricted by having to wait for the bus, how is that freedom? You're forced to wait and sit for a street car or a bus... Cars allow for more freedom because they are not guided by tracks or a predetermined route.

Not everyone can afford a card though, so while they do allow for more freedom - it doesn't do any good for those that can't afford them or have someone willing to buy it for them.

Walking is free and in a well planned and developed traditional neighborhood all the daily needs of life should be within walking distance.

For most of the places I have lived stateside, car ownership seemed to be a requirement. You needed a car as a prosthetic to do just about anything. Yet all of the places I have lived overseas have never required anything but your own ability to move. That felt like true freedom, and those experiences were transformational to me. A five or ten minute walk could lead to groceries, haircuts, laundry services, cafes, bars, work, sports parks, mass transit, and in one city I was even able to walk to the domestic airport. You don't know true freedom until you're able to decouple from the car -- and live better.

For most of the places I have lived stateside, car ownership seemed to be a requirement. You needed a car as a prosthetic to do just about anything. Yet all of the places I have lived overseas have never required anything but your own ability to move. That felt like true freedom, and those experiences were transformational to me. A five or ten minute walk could lead to groceries, haircuts, laundry services, cafes, bars, work, sports parks, mass transit, and in one city I was even able to walk to the domestic airport. You don't know true freedom until you're able to decouple from the car -- and live better.I've known several people from London who love it here. They have had no problems with walk-ability issues. It's a matter of preference. One could go to Europe and tell people there, you don't know freedom until you've had a car and an infrastructure that supports car transport.

I've known several people from London who love it here. They have had no problems with walk-ability issues. It's a matter of preference. One could go to Europe and tell people there, you don't know freedom until you've had a car and an infrastructure that supports car transport.

That's kind of the point of this thread -- you have to pay for your ability to move around by car, and that infrastructure prevents more active transportation. At some point, those costs are going to become untenable. Anyway, you can still move around Europe and Asia by car, but the infrastructure is not specially tailored to it like it is here. It's also not heavily subsidized there. I'll take the freedom that affords me a range of choices near my home, and save the car for long haul trips to places the train doesn't serve.

as a person who plays a lot of golf, love my car

I've known several people from London who love it here. They have had no problems with walk-ability issues. It's a matter of preference. One could go to Europe and tell people there, you don't know freedom until you've had a car and an infrastructure that supports car transport.

I don't think anyone is saying owning a car is bad or that a car doesn't give you freedom to some extent. True freedom though is being able to do what you need with the freedom of being able to choose how you want to go there. If I want to go to work, I don't have an option to walk or take a bicycle, train, or bus. Well I shouldn't say I don't have an option, but it is not a logical or reasonable solution considering my commute is around 30 miles each way. We don't have the public transportation to get me to work. So my choices are pretty limited.

I would argue you don't know freedom until you've had the ability to live your life through whatever means you want without being restricted to one thing. We also need to be realistic, not everyone can afford a car - which is the whole point of this thread. Some people simply don't have the credit or family members that will afford them that option - for whatever reason.

just to comment on your statement that not everyone could afford a car, you could say the same about housing. I think we all agree that right now deep deuce and eventually midtown are our most "urban" up and coming districts. but one wouldn't say they are cheap to live there. so not a lot of people have that financial freedom to live in those areas. if that makes sense.

I don't think anyone is saying owning a car is bad or that a car doesn't give you freedom to some extent. True freedom though is being able to do what you need with the freedom of being able to choose how you want to go there. If I want to go to work, I don't have an option to walk or take a bicycle, train, or bus. Well I shouldn't say I don't have an option, but it is not a logical or reasonable solution considering my commute is around 30 miles each way. We don't have the public transportation to get me to work. So my choices are pretty limited.

I would argue you don't know freedom until you've had the ability to live your life through whatever means you want without being restricted to one thing. We also need to be realistic, not everyone can afford a car - which is the whole point of this thread. Some people simply don't have the credit or family members that will afford them that option - for whatever reason.Ok, that is a very reasonable point.

That's kind of the point of this thread -- you have to pay for your ability to move around by car, and that infrastructure prevents more active transportation. At some point, those costs are going to become untenable. Anyway, you can still move around Europe and Asia by car, but the infrastructure is not specially tailored to it like it is here. It's also not heavily subsidized there. I'll take the freedom that affords me a range of choices near my home, and save the car for long haul trips to places the train doesn't serve.

Why do you think there isn't car infrastructure in Europe, or even Asia. Europe is fully developed for car transportation. It happens to also have a mature rail infrastructure too, but it doesn't mean they don't drive.

The point is, that some can't afford gas, cars, etc. as readily as others. But some also can't afford flying, or even the train. That's just the way it is. We have been very spoiled in this country and even the relatively low income have been able to afford a higher lifestyle than in many, if not most other places. It may well change. But keep in mind, part of the reason our economy developed across the country so quickly is because of effective point-to-point transportation, particularly of raw and finished goods. It has enabled many resources to me maximized in locations with advantages to do so.

One of the things I miss I wad a student at OSU and maybe drove my car once a week. Everything I needed was a short free bike ride away. Work, class, dining, stores, girlfriends, and entertainment.

This could seem off-topic, but the reality is we must think about what kind of lifestyle is sustainable for the masses. Given the choices in this thread - the car culture certainly is not.

Bill Moyers said one of the only times he broke in an interview with real tears was the conclusion of this interview with Wendell Berry. He said it was because he knew he had just heard the truth and it was overwhelming to know that great men like Berry don't come along every day. Here's that interview. 40 minutes - you could do a lot worse with the time.


http://youtu.be/2ejYAfcjJmY

Why do you think there isn't car infrastructure in Europe, or even Asia. Europe is fully developed for car transportation. It happens to also have a mature rail infrastructure too, but it doesn't mean they don't drive.

I said you can still move around Europe and Asia by car, but the infrastructure is not specially tailored to it like it is here.

Anyway, you can still move around Europe and Asia by car, but the infrastructure is not specially tailored to it like it is here.

Says it pretty clearly right here.