Dead-on. OKC is doing good at expanding it's workforce base. If we've got to lose, we should celebrate losing to the Tulsa market. OKC needs Tulsa to thrive.

We are expanding, but we don't want / need Tulsa "Thriving" at OKC's expense.

We are expanding, but we don't want / need Tulsa "Thriving" at OKC's expense.

I agree. Tulsa has some built in advantages and if they really got their game together they could easily pass OKC. Maybe not in population right away but in desirability and eventually population after a few years of population boom. It could become San Antonio vs. Austin on a smaller scale. We don't want to give them a leg up if we can possibly prevent it.

It's a distribution center not a multi national corporate headquarters. I think we will be OK.

we don't want to give Tulsa / or any other competitor an advantage by have 1,000 jobs. Let's not scoff at this distribution center, it would have brought in ( wages only ) over $1/3 Billion dollars in 10 years.

I agree. Tulsa has some built in advantages and if they really got their game together they could easily pass OKC. Maybe not in population right away but in desirability and eventually population after a few years of population boom. It could become San Antonio vs. Austin on a smaller scale. We don't want to give them a leg up if we can possibly prevent it.

The jokes just write themselves

The jokes just write themselves

It's not a joke.

Tulsa is greener and hillier and has slightly less extreme weather. That is a built in advantage OKC can never match because of its geography. Tulsa is also on a major river and their downtown is directly on it. That's another built in advantage. They have the world class museums and the arts culture already established and are the live music capital of the state. Tulsa, with the right investment, could be much better than it is. Because of lack of vision their riverfront is a bed of mud for a better part of the year and their downtown is one of the nation's biggest parking craters. Their economy is also not growing near as fast as OKC's. If Tulsa were to land a corporate relocation or two, if they were to develop those parking craters with low-rise mixed use development like OKC is doing in Midtown, and if they were to dam up the Arkansas river to make it visually appealing year-round and properly develop it, then yes the tables could turn in Tulsa's favor. We don't want Tulsa to whither and die, but they are still very much a competing city with OKC and I have no doubt many Tulsa civic boosters would like nothing better than to see OKC lose its momentum. An Amazon distribution center is not that big of a deal though so this topic has gone more into hypothetical territory. It's still 1,000+ jobs though and even with all the exciting things coming to OKC, this city shouldn't start taking stuff for granted and letting opportunities pass.

It's still 1,000+ jobs though and even with all the exciting things coming to OKC, this city shouldn't start taking stuff for granted and letting opportunities pass.

Do you have any evidence that we should think that is happening?

It's not a joke.

Tulsa is greener and hillier and has slightly less extreme weather. That is a built in advantage OKC can never match because of its geography. Tulsa is also on a major river and their downtown is directly on it. That's another built in advantage. They have the world class museums and the arts culture already established and are the live music capital of the state. Tulsa, with the right investment, could be much better than it is. Because of lack of vision their riverfront is a bed of mud for a better part of the year and their downtown is one of the nation's biggest parking craters. Their economy is also not growing near as fast as OKC's. If Tulsa were to land a corporate relocation or two, if they were to develop those parking craters with low-rise mixed use development like OKC is doing in Midtown, and if they were to dam up the Arkansas river to make it visually appealing year-round and properly develop it, then yes the tables could turn in Tulsa's favor. We don't want Tulsa to whither and die, but they are still very much a competing city with OKC and I have no doubt many Tulsa civic boosters would like nothing better than to see OKC lose its momentum. An Amazon distribution center is not that big of a deal though so this topic has gone more into hypothetical territory. It's still 1,000+ jobs though and even with all the exciting things coming to OKC, this city shouldn't start taking stuff for granted and letting opportunities pass.

OK. True. But not by much. Tulsa used to be a real looker. It's fairly rough around the edges these days.

OK. True. But not by much. Tulsa used to be a real looker. It's fairly rough around the edges these days.

Have you been to South Tulsa recently, near the Utica Square area and the square miles surround it? Unfortunately, OKC has nothing yet that comes close. Its a true gem, reminiscent of the upscale neighborhoods in larger cities in the East Coast. I will definitely applaud Tulsa on having such an area. On the other hand, the Broken Arrow retail corridor is probably the ugliest suburban area I have ever seen. It makes OKC's Quail Springs area on Memorial look downright attractive.

I will say metro-wide, OKC is actually more aesthetically pleasing, even though Tulsa has a few square miles that completely blow away even OKC's best areas. Tulsa's climate though allows for tall, majestic trees with a thick canopy. OKC doesn't have that to work with.

Reports of Tulsa's demise are greatly exaggerated.

One shouldn't focus on the city alone. The Tulsa region is recovering well enough, and frankly, citizens of the region think too much of themselves to let their city fade. The city government is one thing, but the Tulsa establishment and the regional private sector will always see to it that Tulsa's livable and keeping up with the Joneses.

Metro Monitor - September 2013 | Brookings Institution (http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/metromonitor#M46140-this-qtr-employment-mv)

Having OU in the OKC metro is a big advantage. Large state universities are massive economic engines. The full potential of OU is currently unrealized but getting close with their investment in the Norman research campus and the OKC medical campus. Connecting OU/Norman to downtown OKC by rail and building more density on each end should be a higher priority.

Tulsa doesn't have the same favorable higher ed situation which limits its potential. Though with the right leadership TU could be a larger growth engine as the highest ranked university in the state, but not at its current size.

^

Having the OU Health Sciences Center in OKC is massive as well, especially in terms of high-paying employment.

And with the addition of GE, it seems as if momentum is building.


But I completely agree about better linkages between the Norman campus and downtown in particular. It's only 20 miles and there are already existing rail lines and stations.

This should be a much bigger priority than connecting Edmond IMO.

Having OU in the OKC metro is a big advantage. Large state universities are massive economic engines. The full potential of OU is currently unrealized but getting close with their investment in the Norman research campus and the OKC medical campus. Connecting OU/Norman to downtown OKC by rail and building more density on each end should be a higher priority.

Tulsa doesn't have the same favorable higher ed situation which limits its potential. Though with the right leadership TU could be a larger growth engine as the highest ranked university in the state, but not at its current size.

This is a MUST. HSR w/ our metro fully integrated w/ easy access to Edmond w/ Norman - Yukon w/ MWC would help all parties involved.

It's not a joke.

Tulsa is greener and hillier and has slightly less extreme weather. That is a built in advantage OKC can never match because of its geography. Tulsa is also on a major river and their downtown is directly on it. That's another built in advantage. They have the world class museums and the arts culture already established and are the live music capital of the state. Tulsa, with the right investment, could be much better than it is. Because of lack of vision their riverfront is a bed of mud for a better part of the year and their downtown is one of the nation's biggest parking craters. Their economy is also not growing near as fast as OKC's. If Tulsa were to land a corporate relocation or two, if they were to develop those parking craters with low-rise mixed use development like OKC is doing in Midtown, and if they were to dam up the Arkansas river to make it visually appealing year-round and properly develop it, then yes the tables could turn in Tulsa's favor. We don't want Tulsa to whither and die, but they are still very much a competing city with OKC and I have no doubt many Tulsa civic boosters would like nothing better than to see OKC lose its momentum. An Amazon distribution center is not that big of a deal though so this topic has gone more into hypothetical territory. It's still 1,000+ jobs though and even with all the exciting things coming to OKC, this city shouldn't start taking stuff for granted and letting opportunities pass.

World-Class museums?

Berlin has world-class museums, D.C. has world-class museums, Paris has world-class museums.

Tulsa may be ahead of OKC in the Arts, but they're nowhere near approaching world-class and could quickly be taken over if OKC ever really began investing money in that area.

As to the rest…the city is still in Oklahoma, and it's not so much prettier than OKC. Yes it is prettier, but they're behind in urbanization, where natural-topography really doesn't play a determining factor in how beautiful a city is. And the economy up there alone will keep Tulsa out of the running for the next 10 years.

People talk about OKC's economy as being not diversified enough…we've at least got a host of government jobs and notable companies in several other categories to go along with the energy hub, the latter fact being the biggest barrier to Tulsa's growth. What does Tulsa do? Where does it have a competitive advantage over any city in the US? OKC is a Top 5 city in the US for energy companies…so we actually have a chance at landing major companies like Enable, when they come around…and corporate relocations whenever companies like CLR and DVN get big enough to start buying up other sizable companies. Not to mention all the small companies that are built and brought in related to the large companies.

The longer it takes Tulsa to develop that competitive advantage in something, the distance between OKC and Tulsa will become increasingly insurmountable.

Not too sure Tulsa's museums are better than ours. I sat next to someone on a jet plane associated with the Western Heritage Museum a few years back and I brought it up if Tulsa's were better. She went on to tell me that OKC museums were better.......maybe she's a little biased, maybe not. She convinced me she knew what she was talking about though.

Tulsa may be ahead of OKC in the Arts, but they're nowhere near approaching world-class and could quickly be taken over if OKC ever really began investing money in that area.

I agree for the most part. The Philbrook is arguably world class but Tulsa as a whole is not a world class arts city. OKC could easily overtake Tulsa in the arts if some money was invested in that area. Live music as well if we could ever get the Tower Theater up and running.


As to the rest…the city is still in Oklahoma, and it's not so much prettier than OKC. Yes it is prettier, but they're behind in urbanization, where natural-topography really doesn't play a determining factor in how beautiful a city is. And the economy up there alone will keep Tulsa out of the running for the next 10 years.

People talk about OKC's economy as being not diversified enough…we've at least got a host of government jobs and notable companies in several other categories to go along with the energy hub, the latter fact being the biggest barrier to Tulsa's growth. What does Tulsa do? Where does it have a competitive advantage over any city in the US? OKC is a Top 5 city in the US for energy companies…so we actually have a chance at landing major companies like Enable, when they come around…and corporate relocations whenever companies like CLR and DVN get big enough to start buying up other sizable companies. Not to mention all the small companies that are built and brought in related to the large companies.

The longer it takes Tulsa to develop that competitive advantage in something, the distance between OKC and Tulsa will become increasingly insurmountable.

I do agree that as a city Tulsa for the most part isn't that much prettier than OKC, with Midtown Tulsa being an exception. OKC doesn't have anything that comes close to Midtown in Tulsa. Heritage Hills is the closest I can think of but its tiny in comparison and lacks a Cherry St commercial/entertainment district. OKC also doesn't have a Utica Square.

Outside of that, the remainder of Tulsa and its metro is really nothing to write home about, and in fact much of it is actually much UGLIER than most of OKC. For instance, I would say the Memorial area is way nicer looking than the Broken Arrow retail corridor. Where the real beauty advantage comes in is that Tulsa is in the foothills of the Ozark Mountains, and they have a slightly more moderate climate.

Economically speaking, you make a great point. Tulsa doesn't really have anything it leads in or that its near the top in. Without that, it's much less likely to take off and boom than OKC is. OKC economic development, lead by the GE Research Center seems like it is about to snowball. I really think in 10 years, nobody will be able to legitimately argue that Tulsa is ahead in anything except maybe the climate and natural beauty which it has been blessed with.

In addition to a rail-based mass transit connection to Norman, I'd like to see OKC partner with OU more to help them achieve AAU status.

It looks like according to NewsOK its a Macy's distribution center and it will be going to Tulsa.

It was Macy's!

Macy's to open distribution facility near Tulsa employing more than 1,000
By RHETT MORGAN - Tulsa World • Modified: December 17, 2013 at 6:37 am • Published: December 17, 2013

National retailer Macy's Inc. is expected to announce Tuesday that it is opening a distribution center that will provide more than 1,000 new jobs near Cherokee Industrial Park, according to multiple sources.

Gov. Mary Fallin is expected to visit Tulsa for a 1 p.m. press conference to make the announcement.

Macy's will locate a distribution center — known as a "fulfillment center" — east of the industrial park, which is located near U.S. 75 and 76th Street North. No one would comment publicly Monday on whom the employer would be or provide details about the jobs.

And people really thought this was Amazon, slowly beginning to realize people on here really don't know anything...

It was Macy's!

Macy's to open distribution facility near Tulsa employing more than 1,000
By RHETT MORGAN - Tulsa World • Modified: December 17, 2013 at 6:37 am • Published: December 17, 2013

National retailer Macy's Inc. is expected to announce Tuesday that it is opening a distribution center that will provide more than 1,000 new jobs near Cherokee Industrial Park, according to multiple sources.

Gov. Mary Fallin is expected to visit Tulsa for a 1 p.m. press conference to make the announcement.

Macy's will locate a distribution center — known as a "fulfillment center" — east of the industrial park, which is located near U.S. 75 and 76th Street North. No one would comment publicly Monday on whom the employer would be or provide details about the jobs.

Yep. This is the one that Oklahoma City had a shot at. This is a much needed shot in the arm for Tulsa, and we should celebrate that Tulsa got it, and not some other state. Amazon was never in the mix - but if it had, it would have been an even much bigger deal.

Wow, Macy's moves so much merchandise that they will employ 1000 people at those distribution center? Why am I having a hard time believing this will employ 1000 people? Sounds a little inflated if you ask me.

And people really thought this was Amazon, slowly beginning to realize people on here really don't know anything...

Pete was pretty damn close.

Wow, Macy's moves so much merchandise that they will employ 1000 people at those distribution center? Why am I having a hard time believing this will employ 1000 people? Sounds a little inflated if you ask me.

Macy's Martinsburg center to hire 2,100 seasonal workers
By The Associated Press
Advertiser
MARTINSBURG, W.Va. (AP) - Macy's Inc. plans to hire about 2,100 seasonal workers at its fulfillment center in Martinsburg for the upcoming holiday season.

That's three times the number of seasonal workers that the company initially projected it would hire.

Macy's spokesman Jim Sluzewski tells The Herald-Mail of Hagerstown, Md., that more seasonal workers are needed because of rapid growth in the company's online business.

The center employs 1,100 year-round workers.

Seasonal positions include full-time human resource administrator, overnight maintenance engineer, seasonal warehouse associate and seasonal security associate.



Macy's Martinsburg center to hire 2,100 seasonal workers - News - The Charleston Gazette - West Virginia News and Sports - (http://www.wvgazette.com/News/201310130006)

Wow, Macy's moves so much merchandise that they will employ 1000 people at those distribution center? Why am I having a hard time believing this will employ 1000 people? Sounds a little inflated if you ask me.

Macy's sells. Did not have a clue this project was them, but I also do not have any problem believing the projected job numbers now that it's out there. this is a great thing for OK in general, and Tulsa/Owasso area in particular.

Would have been nice to have it here, as I know several folks who could use a better job than the one(s) they presently hold down. But this is still a good big picture event.

I should know more details as to why OKC was passed over soon.

Something went sideways in terms of the site negotiation.

And people really thought this was Amazon, slowly beginning to realize people on here really don't know anything...

All you ever do is bitch and moan about how people here don't know anything. I don't need to see that. Ignore.

I did want to point out that nowhere other than here has there been even the slightest hint that OKC was in on this.

We also knew all about the size and number of employees and that Owasso was going to get it when OKC was eliminated.

Even the people in OKC economic devlopment that were negotiating directly with the consultant didn't know the company and they too thought it was Amazon.

Pete was pretty damn close.

Yes, the growth in online retail is the primary reason this Fulfillment Center was needed by Macy's. Their trying to stay competitive with Amazon.

Macy's, Inc. to Build Major New Fulfillment Center in Tulsa County, Oklahoma, to Support Omnichannel Growth - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/macys-inc-to-build-major-new-fulfillment-center-in-tulsa-county-oklahoma-to-support-omnichannel-growth-2013-12-17?reflink=MW_news_stmp)

And people really thought this was Amazon, slowly beginning to realize people on here really don't know anything...Yeah, and what do you know? Anyone on here said they *THINK* it might be a Amazon distribution center, and I glad it wasn't one, because that means in the future, OKC might land an Amazon distribution center. If the one in Tulsa had in fact been Amazon, OKC wouldn't have ever got one, now we at least have a chance.

BTW, do you even know anyone on here? I'm willing to bet, besides Pete and Steve, there are a lot of posters and lurkers that know a lot more about things going on in OKC than anyone realizes.

Incentives Help Tulsa County Land Macy's Distribution Center - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com | (http://www.newson6.com/story/24246870/incentives-help-land-macys)


Macy's chose a field just outside the city limits of Owasso for the location, after looking at 150 sites. The city put in a half million dollars, and the state is still negotiating other cash incentives, for worker training and infrastructure development.

Half a million? OKC couldn't come up with any more than that?

Half a million? OKC couldn't come up with any more than that?

I think Pete said above it had to do with siting...

Yes, I'm hoping to learn more about what happened with OKC, as we got right to the end then were eliminated.

And I'm told it wasn't over incentives, but something to do with the site.


BTW, I was incorrect when I said that those actively negotiating on OKC's behalf did not know this was Macys. I was told today that they did know, but that otherwise Macys used a code name (Project Socrates) to try and keep their identity as discrete as possible.

Other people in economic development were aware or the project but not the identity of the company.

Pete, I'm suspecting - but I have no proof - it involves the participation of the Cherokees....

Darn those Cherokees. LOL

We need to get the Chickasaws, Arapahoes, and Cheyennes busy to help us.

Pete, I'm suspecting - but I have no proof - it involves the participation of the Cherokees....

a nuance, I know, but do you suspect the Cherokees were wooing Socrates TO them? or AWAY from a known competitor? or both?

Maybe it wasnt such a bad thing that Macy's went to Tulsa and not OKC since millions in incentives were given out. Granted, property tax abatement is probably the most palatable of any incentive but Macy's certainly seemed to get the royal treatment. Giving them a sales tax exemption on the construction of the facility is really the worst part and totally unnecessary.

Macy's gets array of incentives to locate center in Tulsa County - Tulsa World: Owasso (http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/owasso/macy-s-gets-array-of-incentives-to-locate-center-in/article_b9f9297e-9c1f-57e6-bc8d-277637a52329.html)

Yikes, $21 million in tax breaks and incentives? Makes me wonder if there is a point where you have offered so many incentives that there is no longer a benefit to having the company in the area.

Maybe it wasnt such a bad thing that Macy's went to Tulsa and not OKC since millions in incentives were given out. Granted, property tax abatement is probably the most palatable of any incentive but Macy's certainly seemed to get the royal treatment. Giving them a sales tax exemption on the construction of the facility is really the worst part and totally unnecessary.

Macy's gets array of incentives to locate center in Tulsa County - Tulsa World: Owasso (http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/owasso/macy-s-gets-array-of-incentives-to-locate-center-in/article_b9f9297e-9c1f-57e6-bc8d-277637a52329.html)

And there you have it. Which city looks desperate here? Geez.

All of those people bemoaning this "loss" probably should eat a dish of crow. This is exactly what we thought: OKC picking its battles -- and very wisely in this case. My goodness Tulsa seems desperate.

So it looks like it will take local government around 75 years (give or take 25 years) to recoup their costs. That makes a lot of sense. And people still wonder why governments at every level are swimming in debt.

Wow and only 367 full time jobs out of nearly 1,400.

Its telling that from what I read, they are not getting anything from Quality Jobs Incentive Program, which requires the median pay to be at least the county average.

Very glad OKC passed on this. Sounds like a raw deal for Tulsa and the state.

I'm still hoping to find out what happened with the OKC negotiations.

In all this, the worst part is that a large majority of these jobs are part time. They like to use the fancy language of "full-time equivalent" but of 1,387 jobs they claim they will create, 1,020 of these jobs are part time. Woohoo! We gave away $21million for 1,000 people to get a few hours of work and no real benefits.

This really shows just how much further OKC is ahead of Tulsa in economic development right now. We probably laughed and walked away from the negotiations. We're working much bigger deals, including corporate HQs and expansions.

I'm still hoping to find out what happened with the OKC negotiations.

As soonerguru said - I hope OKC walked away from the table on this deal.

In addition to all of the above, the Cherokee Nation kicked-in $500,000 to sweeten the deal. ("Tulsa World", 122513)

Good for Tulsa I guess; but this is the perfect definition of a Pyrrhic victory. You expend more resources to win than you acquire in the victory.

Imagine a country where tax incentives and related items such as these weren't permitted and everyone had to compete on an equal playing field...tax wise.

Imagine a country where tax incentives and related items such as these weren't permitted and everyone had to compete on an equal playing field...tax wise.

That's the biggest problem in "economic development". No one really WANTS to give out incentives, in the econ. dev. business, but because some do, you get into a horrible spiral of having to out-do others for some projects.