Ate today at Irma's in midtown 2 adults 3 kids and gratuity was added into the bill when I asked about it I was it was part of their new billing system. Anybody else have a problem with that?

Being a former server.. No I do not have a problem with it. Too many people as of late think it is acceptable to not tip. Back when I served, at least one table a night would not tip... And you could tell the moment they ordered that they wouldn't. This is a case of the crappy behaviour of a few ruining it for the rest.

No problem at all since an adequate tip should always be factored into the decision to head to a restaurant anyway...I have encountered so many cheapskates that are just looking for an excuse to leave a crappy tip

I wouldn't like that. .. How much did they add?

I would have no problem with 15% being added automatically and having to talk to a manager to have it reduced/removed if the service was bad enough to do so. If the service is that bad management needs to know.

4988

We'll I like to be the one to decide the tip I'm going to leave. Because bad service does happen this was not one of those cases however if it were you now have to make a scene to have the tip removed instead of just tipping accordingly to the bad service you might have received. We eat at Irma's quit often but sadly today was the last time.

Sid you make some good points, I have a real problem with the restaurant not having to pay their employee and now are forcing the patron do it. Is there a law that restricts restaurants from just paying the wait staff a fair wage? If not then Why don't they step up and do it.

Although I haven't waited tables since the mid nineties, I don't remember being stiffed that often. Usually was more of a factor of people only tipping 10%. I do not ever remember making less than non wait staff minimum wage. The wait staff has to report their tipped earnings each shift because the employer has to make up the difference if the server isn't making the regular minimum wage. Every server I knew reported nothing more or very little more than the credit card tips as they wanted their cash tips to be unreported.

It irritates me when restaurants automatically add it and generally it costs the waiter because if they are going to preset the amount, then that is what I am going to pay. As a general rule, I always tip at least 20% and 25% if really good service so if they want to add 15%, then that is what they are stuck with. You take the good with the bad. However, I generally will not visit restaurants that do that as there is no incentive for the staff to provide attentive service. I will not be visiting Irma's again either.

A gratuity is not an entitlement. If you are working somewhere where people don't tip, change restaurants. If restaurants can't find qualified wait staff, then they will pay a higher wage.

From Nolo.com. It had the best explanation of Oklahoma and federal law.

What is the minimum wage in Oklahoma?

The minimum wage in Oklahoma is $7.25 per hour.

Is the minimum wage different in Oklahoma for tipped employees?

The FLSA allows employers to pay a lower hourly minimum wage, as long as that wage plus the tips the employee earns adds up to at least the full minimum wage for each hour worked. If not, the employer has to make up the difference. In Oklahoma, employers can pay tipped employees an hourly wage of 50% of the minimum wage, as long as the employee’s tips bring the total hourly wage up to the state minimum wage.

I do not eat out that often but I have 99.8% of the time tipped. I even tip at Sonic. Servers will know ahead of time that I'm not tipping if I have to get up and make a bit of a scene to get refills or whatever. I have walked into the kitchen at times if I can't get anybody's attention. I do not suffer in silence.

This is a very interesting issue in the American restaurant industry and potentially the most important one with regards to how the industry will look over the next 25 years if things change.

As a server, I would not be a fan of the service charge on every table for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that a server has no legal right to the money received on a service charge. The restaurant actually has to calculate the service charge as income. But if there is no service-charge/gratuity on the check, and a patrol leaves the server $100 on a $50 tab, the restaurant has no right to any of that $100.

Furthermore, while I would be for a slight rise in the server-minimum wage from say $2.13/hour to something like $5.50/hour, the server is offered protections/advantages by the $2.13/hour that s/he would otherwise not have in a non-tipped system.

1. Great nights are all yours. If you sell $1,000 of product and average 30% on your tips (probably because one very generous individual), then you can walk out with $300 (less a likely tip-out to other employees like hosts/busboys/bartenders/sommeliers). However, if you're paid the federal minimum wage, you can be required to pay into a tip-pool that could severely lessen how lucrative your job may be.

2. If you receive $2.13/hour, you cannot be docked pay for walk-outs, breakages, or cash-register shortages. So if a table walks out on a $200 tab, and a server being paid $2.13/hour, the restaurant cannot recoup any of that cost from the server. If they pay the server the full minimum wage, they can recoup all of the cost so long as the employee still makes $7.25/hour.

Know that if tipping goes away as a whole in favor of set hourly rates, that we should expect as a society to have a vastly different experience when dining.

Fewer servers would be employed on a nightly basis, and they would be required to cover a lot larger territory in the restaurant (resulting in a lower quality of service), and because they are not tipped, many servers would not have any sort of incentive to go above and beyond taking an order and delivering food. Menu prices would also increase due to higher labor costs.

The whole idea of the patron determining a gratuity is why the U.S. generally has great service and places like the U.K. are horrible.

Tips represent *incentive* which is completely removed when added automatically.


It goes against the cultural norm and therefore such establishments run the risk of losing business because of it.

Personally, I would say something to the manager of the restaurant and probably go there less frequently if the policy didn't change. I don't want someone else making that decision for me.

^^like^^

Didn't read all the replies, and I'm sure my opinion won't be popular - but - I would not continue to patronize a restaurant that forced me to pay a tip on a party of say 8 or less.

And I say this as someone who worked many, many years as a server and even longer as a bartender.

My reasons;
1.) The service may not have been deserving of a tip. Is the customer now expected to ask for money back if the service was substandard?

2.) If you make the tip decision for me, then I'm not going to give you a penny more - and I often tip more than 15-20% if the service and food are exceptional.

I know what servers make and that's not my concern - that's between the server and their employer. I tip if the service warrants it and that's all I concern myself with.

Some kid in India probably made the shirt I bought at Sam's Club today and only was paid pennies for it - does that mean I should put a $10 bill in an envelope and send it to him? No.

My guess was that OP was part of the after-church crowd. Said crowd is notorious for poor tipping. I'll bet at almost any other time other than Sunday morning, this wouldn't have happened.

Looking at that bill, they added a 16.6% gratuity.

That's a strange number and frankly, outrageous.

BTW, I'm quite sure they cannot add this without first printing it on their menu or telling you before ordering.

They can't simply wait until after the meal then just add some arbitrary surcharge.

We're there more people in the party than stated on the receipt and separate checks were issued?

Was the policy fully disclosed on the menu?

I'm not a fan of automatic gratuities because it's no longer a gratuity. It's a user fee and probably an unpopular one. Also as Brian stated it may actually reduce the tips the servers earn.

We're there more people in the party than stated on the receipt and separate checks were issued?

Was the policy fully disclosed on the menu?

I'm not a fan of automatic gratuities because it's no longer a gratuity. It's a user fee and probably an unpopular one. Also as Brian stated it may actually reduce the tips the servers earn.


Nope it was just me ,wife and the kids. And no it wasn't anywhere on the menu.

Nope it was just me ,wife and the kids. And no it wasn't anywhere on the menu.

It also is not listed on their online menu as of 11/10/13

This is unfortunate to hear as I'm a fan of Irma's. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this because if they are adding 16% I will not be going there anymore. I've never had outstanding service there so I couldn't justify paying that much. It's already a fairly expensive place.

unless I am in a large party I will not eat at any establishment that fines you for eating there. If I get good service I am generous, but if I get dismal service I want the option to leave a penny and a note about future career choices.

I've heard of people crossing out the automatic gratuity and writing in the actual amount and signing the slip. Not sure how well that works.

I'm with those that typically tip well. I waited tables for almost 10 years. My bottom end is 20%, and I tip up to 35% for a really good experience. However, if it's automatic? They get the 15% that was added. It costs the waiter money when that happens.

I also don't return to a place that adds gratuity. If you're that concerned about your waiters, pay them more. There are places I like to support because they pay their tipped staff a true hourly wage.

Looking at that bill, they added a 16.6% gratuity.

That's a strange number and frankly, outrageous.

18% on the subtotal

Personally, I think the restaurant thinks its looking out for its employees but this reeks of 'small minded, over management.'

They could raise their prices by say 10% and give that (plus any tips) to the wait staff and most customers wouldn't notice and probably wouldn't feel as offended.

Terrible marketing/customer service move IMO.

^^^That. What Brian said.

Frankly, if I noticed a charge like that on the check, I'd refuse to pay it.
If the management tried to hit me with a "defrauding an innkeeper" charge, I'd respond with a "defrauding a diner" charge.
(and this from a 20%--pre sales tax--tipper).

Wait staff should earn minimum wage regardless.
Automatic gratuities result in two things from me:

I only pay the mandatory gratuity amount and not my normal gratuity, which is 20%-plus for reasonable service and 25%-plus for excellent service, since I once worked in the service industry during my high school and college years.
I do not return to that establishment after letting the manager know why.

Any table 5 or more is the policy, I talked to them this morning over the phone and confirmed that the new menus stated the charges now. So Irma's burger shack can kiss my butt goodbye for good.

Any table 5 or more is the policy, I talked to them this morning over the phone and confirmed that the new menus stated the charges now. So Irma's burger shack can kiss my butt goodbye for good.

Wow, FIVE or more? I've never heard of such a thing, especially when including kids.

By Patricia Sabatini Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Some diners view automatic gratuities as a convenience. For others, it's like being force fed.

Either way, the practice of automatically adding tips to bills for big groups -- often tables of six to eight people or more -- could quietly disappear following an IRS ruling that forces restaurants to classify such charges as wages, not tips.

"Say Goodbye to Automatic Gratuities" is how one law firm put it in an alert to the hospitality industry last year in anticipation of the ruling that's now set to take effect Jan. 1.

Florida-based Darden Restaurants -- operator of Olive Garden, Red Lobster, LongHorn Steakhouse, The Capital Grille and others -- said it would decide by yearend whether to eliminate automatic 18 percent tips for parties of eight or more at its some 2,100 locations.

The country's biggest casual dining chain already has dropped the practice at 100 of its restaurants in various markets across the nation. Instead, it prints suggested gratuity amounts on diners' receipts -- for 15, 18 and 20 percent of the total bill, excluding tax -- leaving the tip line blank for customers to fill in.

"We're testing this change in an effort to determine the best way to preserve tips for our employees while following the IRS guidance," spokesman Rich Jeffers said.

So far, diners have said they like seeing suggested tip amounts on their checks, he said.

"The feedback we're hearing from guests is that it is very convenient."

Darden began rethinking its tip policy after the IRS issued updated guidance further clarifying a decades-old rule that treats mandatory gratuities as wages, subject to payroll taxes. The agency planned to start enforcing the regulation in earnest this past January, but delayed the action until Jan. 1, 2014, to give businesses more time to comply.

The action could complicate record keeping and could end up raising payroll taxes for servers and restaurants where automatic tips continue to be imposed.

The ruling would have little or no impact on businesses' payroll taxes if waitstaff correctly reported all tip income to their employers as required by law, the IRS said. Practically speaking, however, taxes could go up if some workers have been underreporting their tips.

"If all tipped employees report 100 percent of their tips, the additional FICA [payroll] tax burden on the employer should be negligible, if any," the Internal Revenue Service said in an online Q&A on the issue.



Read more: IRS ruling may take gratuities off the menu - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (http://www.post-gazette.com/businessnews/2013/09/08/IRS-ruling-may-take-gratuities-off-the-menu/stories/201309080166#ixzz2kLubvAjb)

My guess was that OP was part of the after-church crowd. Said crowd is notorious for poor tipping. I'll bet at almost any other time other than Sunday morning, this wouldn't have happened.

This was my experience when I was a waiter for a summer. Sunday afternoons were the worst, the most work for little compensation.

If it costs the same today as it did two weeks ago I don't get what the hullabaloo is all about...If the server's service sucks they get let go

I can't wait for the restaraunt service industry to be overhauled.

Tipping in the US is so backwards that it is flat-out embarrassing. WHY are customers responsible for paying employees? Why not call it 'wage contribution', because it is most definitely not a 'tip' anymore.

By the way, what is up with this constant percentage creep with tipping?

Not that long ago, 10% was the accepted norm and 15% was reserved for exceptional service. Now it seems 15% is assumed and 20 or 25% is not unusual when service is considered especially good.

And now "standard" mandatory tips are 18%??


These are percentages so why do they keep going up even when prices are already rising and thus the gross amount of tips is going up at the same rate?

If it costs the same today as it did two weeks ago I don't get what the hullabaloo is all about...If the server's service sucks they get let go

The entire concept of a tip is moot if its forced upon a customer. While the 'cost' may be the same to many - there is now the additional step for a customer to have to complain to get their 'tip' back if service was sup-par. Additionally, in many cases the end cost will be less because customers will often not tip more if forced to tip at all. Not to mention overall lower sales volume if people stop patronizing a restaurant out of principle.

There are plenty enough bad servers out there to disprove that "if the server's service sucks they get let go."

No Irma's for us.

Sid is right on. People go to Irna's for the food not the service. Might get it if we were talking Red Prime but...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ABqIfjmg5OY/TsuwzEBXydI/AAAAAAAABvo/wtl8uY0cGoQ/s640/fake+tip+1.jpg

^Speaking of the Sunday afternoon crowd...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ABqIfjmg5OY/TsuwzEBXydI/AAAAAAAABvo/wtl8uY0cGoQ/s640/fake+tip+1.jpg

^Speaking of the Sunday afternoon crowd...

We get it. You hate Christians. It seems that they are the only hypocritical, self-righteous, inconsiderate people in the world. Get rid of them and all the world's ills will be solved, right?

The wait severs should most definitely make more than $3 an hour, but I am on the side on no automatic gratuity, I will make that decision based of course on the service. I believe if all restaurants had automatic gratuity.....the service would really, really suck everywhere. I understand on large parties, but not five. I like of sound mind post....I am really tired of waiters picking on the Sunday crowd, like Christians are the worst tippers. That is so ridiculous. I thought the rich were the worst tippers and the poor were the best? or the American Indians are the best....wait......people with curly hair are the worst! People born on Thursdays are the best!!....whatever.

The fake tip is tacky, regardless of what the message is. If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to eat at a served table.

I can't wait for the restaraunt service industry to be overhauled.

Tipping in the US is so backwards that it is flat-out embarrassing. WHY are customers responsible for paying employees? Why not call it 'wage contribution', because it is most definitely not a 'tip' anymore.

Right, but you enjoy significantly lower prices for your food that you would be paying otherwise, and you do get better/quicker service because of this.

If the industry is overhauled and Front of House staff is actually paid a "reasonable" wage (we'll say $10/hour for your average restaurant like Chili's or Red Lobster) prices for food will be raised somewhere in the range of 10% to 30% and there would be less Front of House staff on the floor on any given night which would inevitably lead to "worse"/slower service.

You will also have a lot fewer veteran servers willing to spend time in the industry, unless there is (very unlikely in the US) a major incentive to keep people there. If you can't make $20/hour serving, then it's not somewhere you're going to be willing to stay for a long time…not when you have no shot at benefits and it's difficult to reach 40 hours/week without working 6 days.

I don't know what they pay servers in Europe, but I don't get the sense that it's particularly high unless you're talking about a premiere establishment. I'm almost entirely positive that if you translated that culture to the States, service would fall to ****.

I disagree Pete that service is worse in Europe. I've never sensed that kind of distinction at all in Europe. Even without always able to speak the local language, wait staff was always friendly.

Friendly =/= Good service. I'm going to make an assumption that you were traveling in Europe and so it probably wasn't a big deal to sit at a meal for an hour minimum. I personally enjoy the time to sit and relax, but there's no way that would translate well to the US, especially in a culture that expects everything quickly. The average table of 4 at your average restaurant wants in and out in 45 minutes…there's no way that has any prayer of happening in Europe if it's remotely busy. That would aggravate a lot of people.

Far more so than food timing though, general drink levels and pace of getting beverages is far slower in Europe and would probably be the first area Americans realized a difference in a tip-based system and a wage-based system, and I'm pretty sure most, with their penchant for gulping down tea and soda, would find that to be particularly annoying.

One thing I have noticed and wondered about in Europe...the waitstaff seems to have an average age of much older than in the US, and especially older male. Could that mean they are career jobs as opposed to in the US where it tends to be young transitional? (Low paying, no benefits and no future on average here. Yep, with single payer healthcare over there if nothing else.)

We get it. You hate Christians. It seems that they are the only hypocritical, self-righteous, inconsiderate people in the world. Get rid of them and all the world's ills will be solved, right?

Nope, it's just that if you ask any waiter, Sunday mornings are the worst.

--but if you wanted to eliminate terrorism, the oppression of minorities and most causes for war, getting rid of religion might be a good start.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a chunk of the waiters in Europe are family members of the restaurant owners just doing what they can to help the business out.

I don't think that's necessarily the exact answer, but a possibility. There were a decent amount of younger (20 to 35) servers/bartenders in Europe when I was there from July to mid-September

The wait severs should most definitely make more than $3 an hour, .

I posted this previously but seems to be missed. Waiters make more than 2.13 per hour. They have to report their tips at the end of each shift for tax purposes. If the $2.13 per hour plus their tips do not equal $7.25 per hour....the employer has to pay them more so they are making at least $7.25 per hour. This is federal law. Really not that hard though to get to $7.25 from $2.13. That is 5.12 per hour in tips. Most waiters have 4-5 tables in their section and turn tables every 45-60 minutes.

I not saying that waiters deserve only 7.25 per hour but when I waited tables at Chilis on Meridian and Pepperoni Grill, I always averaged $13-18 per hour including the time for closing duties. (even on Sundays but it is true at least in my experience that the Sunday crowds do not tip as well but neither did the stock show people either) The $2.13 per hour basically covered my taxes on the total wage.

ou aren't there to purchase wait service. You are there to purchase food.

Which is exactly why forcing customers to tip and how much to tip is ludicrous.


But you're not there to for the wait service, you are there for the food.

Not true - at least from my perspective. I go out to eat for the entire experience. Bad service can ruin that experience regardless of how good the food is and really great service can makeup for food that is otherwise nothing exceptional.

I do agree that for many restaurants the idea of paying next to nothing and relying on tips to cover your wait staff is crazy.

To me Irma's is a good example. IMO - restaurants such as Irma's should pay their staff a decent wage that is elevated by tips. Naturally the prices would have to reflect this. This might be a turnoff to some customers, but to me its the fairest route.


If I got out to eat more often, I'd be sure to eat at Irma's. I appreciate companies that are willing to get rid of the meaningless steps.

What are you talking about? They didn't get rid of anything other than my right to chose to tip or not and how much.

Lady named Linda from Irma's called me this afternoon asking if i wanted a refund and I declined the offer she asked if i would remove the negative posts I left on urban spoon about the incident, I told her that i think the policies are not suitable for this type of restaurant.


(Sorry Garin -- I accidentally removed part of your post while attempting to respond. ~ Pete)

Sid is right on. People go to Irna's for the food not the service. Might get it if we were talking Red Prime but...

Which is probably exactly why they instituted the forced tip policy. Obviously patrons didn't feel the need to tip enough to keep the wait staff happy. So, in a totally illogical reaction, the management decided to force the tip.

Red Prime is a good example of where I go for the whole experience of great atmosphere, great service and great food. In return I tip accordingly. I personally don't feel much of a need to tip at a burger joint unless the service is exception - which does happen.

Its no just for Sunday its everyday of the week lunch and dinner.Lady named Linda from Irma's called me this afternoon asking if i wanted a refund and I declined the offer she asked if i would remove the negative posts I left on urban spoon about the incident, I told her that i think the policies are not suitable for this type of restaurant.

Awesome. Glad you didn't cave in. Social media is an excellent motivator and change agent.

Garin, how did they get your contact information?


I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.

Garin, how did they get your contact information?


I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.

I have run into it a few times. The one who must be obeyed and I have three kids so we note it when we see it. Usually the number is 6 or 8.

Personally, I think the restaurant thinks its looking out for its employees but this reeks of 'small minded, over management.'

They could raise their prices by say 10% and give that (plus any tips) to the wait staff and most customers wouldn't notice and probably wouldn't feel as offended.

Terrible marketing/customer service move IMO.

Whoever posted on urban spoon recently about this issue (Garin?) already thinks Irma's burgers are "overpriced".

Even though the standard is to base the tip on a percent of the check tempered by the service rendered, I wonder how many people cut the tip when they perceive the food is overpriced?

Tips should not be forced on people, isn't that why it is called a tip? You tip some, upon your own will and experience you had with them.

Exactly. Which is why it should be called a wage. You should always pay someone wages owed, then if you want to give them a gift as a way of saying thank you, that option is always available. :)I would still tip even if they increased their wages. I don't have much understanding about this issue and maybe I will as I consider a new job where I would serve tables, but forcing a tip on people just seems messed up. Anyways, I will soon find out I suppose.

Garin, how did they get your contact information?


I've never heard of a restaurant enforcing this policy for five or more; very strange they would draw the line at such a low number.

I sent them an email Sunday about my displeasure and she responded to it this morning and asked if she could call me so I gave her the number and she called.

I have noticed that places are really taking notice to social media/review sites.

I somewhat recently left a comment on a business's google page and had no identifying information other than my story. The owner called me the following morning asking if I was the one who wrote the review.


It was bizarre.

I had lunch at Irma's recently. Good burger and rings. Iced tea. Perfectly reasonable service. Price was comparable with Teds for lunch. The server received from us the same tip amount as the crew at Teds. I would be happy with just water but usually order tea to spare any anxiety about the amount any drink adds to the bill and, hence, the tip. My servers would never lose tip money over the absence a $2-3 drink. Now, if I'd had just water at Irma's, my tip would have been less. Not so with Teds, as their service is, well, you know .. Teds. Maybe we should tip 30 percent at Teds?

But I don't go for this automatic gratuity carp.