The "Automatic Gratuity" removes that pleasurable part of the dining experience that allows the diner to say Thank You, personally, to the people who brought the food to your table and made the entire visit more pleasurable.

(this is why I sometimes wonder about the habit/personal practice of just adding the tip to the CC receipt , , , and the related question regarding whether is it a gaffe or a faux pas to slip the waiter or waitress a five after adding the tip to the slip of paper and saying, "this is for you"? probably it's both of them. As if I care about propriety . . . geez.)

btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning. Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp. I prefer Orange Roughy.

I sent them an email Sunday about my displeasure and she responded to it this morning and asked if she could call me so I gave her the number and she called.

She also responded to me via Twitter when I posted a pic of a very undercooked burger that I picked up on a to go order a month or so ago. I will give them props for that.

I usually overtip, so if I go somewhere and they automatically just add 16%, it's probably saving me money.

Agree about "server" but your alternative doesn't make it, either.

QUOTE=RadicalModerate;705800]The "Automatic Gratuity" removes that pleasurable part of the dining experience that allows the diner to say Thank You, personally, to the people who brought the food to your table and made the entire visit more pleasurable.

(this is why I sometimes wonder about the habit/personal practice of just adding the tip to the CC receipt , , , and the related question regarding whether is it a gaffe or a faux pas to slip the waiter or waitress a five after adding the tip to the slip of paper and saying, "this is for you"? probably it's both of them. As if I care about propriety . . . geez.)

btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning. Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp. I prefer Orange Roughy.[/QUOTE]

Lady named Linda from Irma's called me this afternoon asking if i wanted a refund and I declined the offer she asked if i would remove the negative posts I left on urban spoon about the incident, I told her that i think the policies are not suitable for this type of restaurant.


(Sorry Garin -- I accidentally removed part of your post while attempting to respond. ~ Pete)

I find it interesting that removing a negative post on urbanspoon is worth about $60.

oh and why don't people use yelp in OKC ?

urbanspoon seems to have caught on in the food cirlces here...

You've got a lot of proving to do.

As do you, if you plan on trying to hold me to more than anecdotal evidence.


As I mentioned already, low wages for wait staff isn't everywhere in the US.

I'm well aware. There are 7 or 9 states that do not allow restaurants to take the tip-credit.



In fact, many states require employers to pay at least minimum wages if they didn't receive enough in tips.

All States.


Please, stop stating that if servers were paid normal wages that somehow the world would end.

I didn't even come close to saying the world would end. I said things would change. The business model is incredibly different in the two systems.


Washington figured out it works better for everyone and I'm glad they did. I don't feel like I have to tip in order for my server to be able to afford a meal but I can leave a tip as a way of saying thank you.

I have a dream that in the future my CC company allows me to set an automatic gratuity for any purchase done at a restaurant and that POSs can automatically take care of that.

Irma's, I'm a fan. Now if we can just get Oklahoma to see the silliness of $2.15/hr wages.

I'm going to say this again, because I think it's the most important aspect of this argument that nobody is acknowledging:

If a restaurant includes a service charge with the ticket, then the server has no legal right to that money. None whatsoever. Irma's can legally keep every dime that is made off of the service charge, as long as the server's average wage over a pay period is at least $7.25/hour.

------

As for the postulation, I'm just telling you, if you remove the tip system, the odds that serving remains a lucrative option decrease dramatically…and if it's not a lucrative option, you decrease the pool of people willing to stay in the industry. There are servers in this city who make $70k/year…and they do it working about 36 hours/week. Do you really think restaurants are going to be willing pay servers $15 to $25/hour let alone the near $40/hour these top of the line people are making?

And what is the average US consumer going to do when prices raise a substantial amount? Right now, you can run a 20 person FOH staff @ an average of 8 hours per person for $341. When that number climbs to $1600, how much do you have to raise your prices? At least a 300% (closer to 400%) increase in FOH labor costs…if the restaurant averages $12k a night in sales, they've taken a 10.5% hit to their operating margin. So they have to raise their prices at least 10% and that's without a service charge factored in.

I'm also skeptical of any examples of how wage-based restaurants are working in the US, because people, I would be willing to bet, are still by and large leaving 20% tips even on top of higher wages (and prices).

You know what the average tip in Europe is? Round-it up...

I find it interesting that removing a negative post on urbanspoon is worth about $60.

oh and why don't people use yelp in OKC ?

urbanspoon seems to have caught on in the food cirlces here...

It's not just $60…it was the assumption that the gesture would make Garin feel valued and bring him back in (ostensibly to spend another $60)…it's an assumption that works more often than you would think. And yeah…how many people does it take reading that negative comment to translate into $60 of lost revenue from people who would have otherwise come in?

It's not just $60…it was the assumption that the gesture would make Garin feel valued and bring him back in (ostensibly to spend another $60)…it's an assumption that works more often than you would think. And yeah…how many people does it take reading that negative comment to translate into $60 of lost revenue from people who would have otherwise come in?

Agreed. And to many, social media greatly influences how they spend their money and their time.

A few times a week a group of 4-8 of us patronize different lunch spots around downtown OKC. We've eaten at Irma's numerous times. If this policy stays in effect, we won't dine there as a group again.

Agree about "server" but your alternative doesn't make it, either.


=RadicalModerate;705800]btw: I think the term "Server" is demeaning. Hospitality Coordinator sounds a lot better.
as long as they don't give me any of that automatic gratuity carp. I prefer Orange Roughy.

I was kidding. About the alternative label. (It should have read Hospitality Coordination Specialist.) j/k

You guys are going to let this go three pages without posting this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

(NSFW, obviously)

Jay Porter | Observations From A Tipless Restaurant, Part 1: Overview (http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-restaurant-part-1-overview/)

-M

1. I hate when waiters or former watiers get mad at people for not tipping enough. How much you're paid is between you and your employer. Gratuity is just that; gratuitous. It's something extra and it's not a right.

2. If your wait staff is being chronically stiffed on tips to the point that you have to add gratuity to the check automatically, then perhaps the problem is that your wait staff sucks and that's why they're not getting tips.

3. I'm with Pete on tip creep. A percentage tip takes care of inflation. If a burger cost more today than it did in 2000, then 15% of a more costly burger is going to be more.

4. Also, I'm tired of EVERYONE wanting a tip. You see tip jars on counters in so many establishments these days. At the cleaners, coffee place, sandwich place etc. These places get paid a wage. That's your job. Don't expect a tip for doing what you were hired to do.

5. I've read a few articles about restaurants that have decided to pay their wait staff a normal wage and do away with tips. It's not a gratuity added on or a percentage added to the ticket; it's a wage. And the result has been better service because the wait staff isn't worried about getting paid or getting stiffed and it takes the odd and sometimes uncomfortable dynamic out of the customer/waiter relationship. That puts the onus on the employer. Hence if a waiter sucks, they get fired, not a 3 cent tip. If you're afraid that it will raise the cost of the food too much, then there's still Taco Bell et. al. That sounds like the way to go to me.

Jay Porter | Observations From A Tipless Restaurant, Part 1: Overview (http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-restaurant-part-1-overview/)

-M

I read through all 6 part of this.

Let me preface this by saying that I think there is so much good information in this series and a lot of great insight into the restaurant industry for people who have never been in it. I am in agreement with almost all of his individual claims.

Where I differ from Mr. Porter is the overall picture of how things will change in the industry going forward. Dining will be more expensive and will take longer. Lucrative waiting positions will grow sparse to non-existent and so the industry will lose veteran servers, and will fail to have the room for growth for less-experienced servers to see it as a worthwhile use of their time. Individual restaurants, especially on the more casual end, will actually probably stabilize some, but the industry as a whole will be met with less longevity.

It will also be more difficult to start a restaurant. Margins will be even tighter, prices will be higher and patrons will be forced to either expand their restaurant budget or find other dining options. More places like Chipotle and Smashburger will increase in the market, eliminating full-service in favor of some aspect of self-service. And considering the average employee that you have at a restaurant, abuse of the system will grow. That may be easy to weed out if you're one of a handful of restaurants in town working this system. But when you have the entire industry adopt this system, all of the sudden your pool of candidates becomes a lot more taxing to wade through, and your competition to land them is a lot higher. Abuse of the system looks like servers who pass on going the extra step in hospitality because it brings with it no reward, servers who milk the clock because it's now actually lucrative to do so, servers who don't worry about up-selling items because it doesn't impact the pay, servers who let "attention to detail" slide, like filling up water or replacing used silverware, servers passing on dialoguing with guests about the menu opting to instead just be an order-taker.

The abuse of any system is always going to happen. And I'm not going to say that this new system wouldn't work…clearly it would. It's just that wide-spread implementation of this system would establish a different dining experience than Americans are used to.

Sid called this a success story…well the restaurant is now closed (to be sure, not necessarily due to operating reasons) and was a 3*/5* restaurant on Yelp and a 72% restaurant on Urbanspoon. The comments read like any other restaurant's, so it sounds like The Linkery was not bad, but just average…sounds more like a meh story than a success story.

Part of my job description is to wine and dine clients for breakfast, lunch, and sometimes dinner. Mostly breakfast and lunch their can be at any given time 2-4 guests plus myself for each meeting. Irma's has been on this rotation for several years both locations to be exact, I've never been subjected to the automatic gratuity from any restaurant for the last 17 years in business with exception of a few times with a larger group of clients. Regardless if I have fewer than 5 in my party I will never step foot back into Irma's again. Kaiser's is just as close and makes a good shake to boot.

Part of my job description is to wine and dine clients for breakfast, lunch, and sometimes dinner. Mostly breakfast and lunch their can be at any given time 2-4 guests plus myself for each meeting. Irma's has been on this rotation for several years both locations to be exact, I've never been subjected to the automatic gratuity from any restaurant for the last 17 years in business with exception of a few times with a larger group of clients. Regardless if I have fewer than 5 in my party I will never step foot back into Irma's again. Kaiser's is just as close and makes a good shake to boot.

I was a waiter. Rule of thumb for us was 6 guests -- and there was a good reason for it. The larger the party, the crappier the tip. It's fairly standard practice. Haven't heard of doing that for five guests, though. Sorry you had a bad experience. Still, somehow I doubt your absence will have much of an impact on Irma's bottom line going forward.

A few people on Twitter picked up this thread and tweeted it, so word has definitely started to get around.


And do most "6 or more" automatic gratuity policies include children?

A few people on Twitter picked up this thread and tweeted it, so word has definitely started to get around.


And do most "6 or more" automatic gratuity policies include children?

I have an issue with the policy in general - but I really have an issue with kids being counted as adults. Sure kids can make a bigger mess, blah, blah, blah.... but its a terrible policy.

So, if you left a tip at a "tipless" restaurant would the owner call the cops or just bar you?
Would the waitperson accepting it get fired?
This redistribution of the wealth is more complicated than it might first appear!
(borrowed from Dennis Moore/Monty Python)

Tips should not be forced on people, isn't that why it is called a tip? You tip some, upon your own will and experience you had with them.

I think this is precisely the attitude that leads to automatic gratuity being added to the check. The answer is, yes, you are supposed to tip. That's how we do it in America. In Europe, tips are literally reserved for superlative service, and no more than 10% is recommended. But they pay their wait staff a living wage (and most of them get health insurance through their governments).

It would suck to bust my ass and have someone with your views as a patron trying to decide if I qualify for a tip.

I think this is precisely the attitude that leads to automatic gratuity being added to the check. The answer is, yes, you are supposed to tip. That's how we do it in America. In Europe, tips are literally reserved for superlative service, and no more than 10% is recommended. But they pay their wait staff a living wage (and most of them get health insurance through their governments).

It would suck to bust my ass and have someone with your views as a patron trying to decide if I qualify for a tip.

So, are you saying you'd be 'entitled' to a tip because your employer doesn't pay you much?

If you were truly 'busting your ass' then your tips at the end of the day would most likely be just fine.

Exactly what are SoonerGuru's 'views' that are so wrong? He doesn't think he should be FORCED to tip. He didn't say he doesn't tip regardless. He also clarifies that the tip is representational of the individual experience ----- Oh my God that's so unfair!

Like I've said, I worked as a waiter and then changed to bartending - because I found it paid much better. But it all depends on where you work and how you work.

I see zero scenario where it would be right to force a family of 5-6 to have to pay a predetermined tip amount.

Digression Alert: I just remembered that one of the first discussionarguments I got involved with in here was about tipping at Sonic.
Two Bucks minimum. That shouldn't be a rule. Simply a choice.

So, are you saying you'd be 'entitled' to a tip because your employer doesn't pay you much?

If you were truly 'busting your ass' then your tips at the end of the day would most likely be just fine.

Exactly what are SoonerGuru's 'views' that are so wrong? He doesn't think he should be FORCED to tip. He didn't say he doesn't tip regardless. He also clarifies that the tip is representational of the individual experience ----- Oh my God that's so unfair!

Like I've said, I worked as a waiter and then changed to bartending - because I found it paid much better. But it all depends on where you work and how you work.

I see zero scenario where it would be right to force a family of 5-6 to have to pay a predetermined tip amount.

Bates you hit the nail on the head it's all about the entitlement.

Well then, I hope you don't think "carp" was a typo! Just covering my @$$, don't you know.


I was kidding. About the alternative label. (It should have read Hospitality Coordination Specialist.) j/k

Well then, I hope you don't think "carp" was a typo! Just covering my @$$, don't you know.

I'm fairly sure that it's OK to serve carp at a kosher restaurant, but not to carp about it.
Perhaps a rabbi should be consulted in order to cover one's "s" here?
He (or she) might even throw in a tip about tipping for half price.
Especially if he (or she) is a moel?

Noted.

I'm fairly sure that it's OK to serve carp at a kosher restaurant, but not to carp about it.
Perhaps a rabbi should be consulted in order to cover one's "s" here?
He (or she) might even throw in a tip about tipping for half price.
Especially if he (or she) is a moel?

So, are you saying you'd be 'entitled' to a tip because your employer doesn't pay you much?

If you were truly 'busting your ass' then your tips at the end of the day would most likely be just fine.

Exactly what are SoonerGuru's 'views' that are so wrong? He doesn't think he should be FORCED to tip. He didn't say he doesn't tip regardless. He also clarifies that the tip is representational of the individual experience ----- Oh my God that's so unfair!

Like I've said, I worked as a waiter and then changed to bartending - because I found it paid much better. But it all depends on where you work and how you work.

I see zero scenario where it would be right to force a family of 5-6 to have to pay a predetermined tip amount.

Perhaps you weren't a waiter very long for this very reason. Ever worked Sunday lunch after church gets out?

Noted.

Amen.

Perhaps you weren't a waiter very long for this very reason. Ever worked Sunday lunch after church gets out?

Boo-Hoo. Then don't work at Luby's! (that's just my sarcasm venting)

I worked at plenty of places as a waiter that had terrible tipping customers........ guess what? When I realized it wasn't my attitude or skills that were hurting my income - but, in fact, either the restaurant and/or its customers - I got a job doing the same thing for more money somewhere else.

There are plenty of days and shifts as a waiter or bartender that don't pay enough to make it worth the effort - but you either suck it up, because its part of the job, or you move on. You think a Tuesday night bartending at the former 5th Seasons Inn at Broadway Ext and 63rd made me anything? Nope. But the weekend 'free bar' for guests made it so worth putting up with the other crap the rest of the week.

If the only flag you've got to fly is the, "those damn pesky penny pinching Christians on Sundays from noon to three" then you don't have my sympathy on this issue.

How about instead of bitching about the people who actually ensure you have a job (your customers) you re-evaluate if the 'problem' really is a problem and how you and the restaurant can overcome it without annoying, inconveniencing or otherwise causing your customers to become 'former customers.'

If you were truly 'busting your ass' then your tips at the end of the day would most likely be just fine.
.

Probably not on an early Sunday afternoon.

I have an idea how about all restaurants be closed on Sunday, then they won't have to take the chance of the church crowd coming in and not tipping well. This could also promote more family dinners around the kitchen table which we all could you more of and maybe these restaurants might benefit like Chick fila has.

I don't chime in often, but here is my two cents. I used to work in the restaurant industry and here are some of my viewpoints.
1. It is back breaking and sometimes overwhelming work during peak busy hours.
2.not many people can do this type of work, this is the ultimate in multitasking.
3.$2.13 an hour is not negotiable for the server paid by the restaurant, and VERY few places pay more than that.
4.if my level of service was underpar and i was seen just standing around, i deserved a bad tip...if I was busy, most people would understand and still leave a decent tip.
5. Some people come in (not all) and treat servers like they are trash, thats not cool.
6. Some people come in and treat servers with ultimate respect, those people are getting the best service. (See where l'm going with that?)
7. In a lot of restaurants, the server is required to give a percentage of their tips to the bartender, busser, and the hostess. That is a requirement. In other restaurants where they do not give this percentage, they have do everything including cleaning up after messy people after they leave.
8. Servers have to deal with multiple tables making multiple requests at the same time and also have to deal with unexpected problems in a timely manner, no exceptions, or their tip suffers...very few people can handle that.
9.although, i can understand viewpoints against the auto-tip practice, I still firmly stand by it, just for the fact, you can walk into a restaurant and not ever have to leave your seat and the person taking care of you has to endure way more than you realize or even see. People that have never worked in a restaurant just do not understand what their particular server truly does for them, such as prepping for the shift, what kind of nut-job may be in there next table, how many tables they have...etc, etc...
9 the list could go on and on. But in reality, if paying 9 dollars to someone who has to clean up after you, put up with 1000's of different neurosis in a months time, and ensures you have good service bothers you...you may want to re-evaluate dining out in a full service restaurant all together. To the rest of the population who gets it, CHEERS!

I just now read all of the replies...I have dined at Irma's by Chesapeake quite a few times, and they do have a "house rules" section on the menu that is usually facing up when they seat you, and it does mention items including a gratuity for parties of a certain size. In this case, I am assuminh its "5". But kudos to them for at least trying to make sure you're aware of it.

The whole idea of the patron determining a gratuity is why the U.S. generally has great service and places like the U.K. are horrible.

Tips represent *incentive* which is completely removed when added automatically.


It goes against the cultural norm and therefore such establishments run the risk of losing business because of it.

Personally, I would say something to the manager of the restaurant and probably go there less frequently if the policy didn't change. I don't want someone else making that decision for me.

Anecdotal, but I just got back from Japan where tipping is considered extremely rude (servers earn a living wage directly), and everywhere I went the service was fantastic. There's probably a lot of cultural differences there in terms of ideas of the role of service, but I found it fascinating.

+ 1 Anthony. If servers are expected to fold napkins, bus tables or anything other than serving the food they should be paid minimum wage at a minimum. If there is a number where an auto tip kicks in, then yeah your kids count also. They are eating, right? Only thing I would do different is make sure the server gets the tip, and not the house. Leave a cash tip and delete the charge for tip at the register if paying with plastic.

You would think that restaurants would pay a full hourly wage for opening and closing side work, but they do not. Restaurants require their servers to provide excellent service in order to get decent tips and offset the 2.13 an hour. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

Why are people stuck on tipping based on percentage of meal cost?

I order a steak at a nice restaraunt (for example, West) and it costs me $40.
My friend next to me orders a chicken salad and it costs $15.

The server spent the exact same time and energy providing both of us for the night. But the customer who ordered a more expensive item is punished by societal norms?


I have heard many times servers say something along the lines of "I got stiffed on a $100 tab tonight"... Were they really expecting $20+ because they brought a nice bottle of wine for two people? Then on the other end of this scale, the server could have been running sodas back and forth to a table all night for the same two people who only ordered said soda and an appetizer. Now these soda people have a $20 tab.

Anytime I have brought this up to people (usually friends that are servers and ranting after work or something) they are dumbfounded.

PS for anyone unfamiliar with what "stiffing" is to a server, it most certainly does not mean they got 0.00 on the tip line. It means they did not get the percentage they expected based on total bill.

Good service gets tipped. Bad services gets justifiably stiffed. The attitude that a tip is mandatory just because the service staff took and delivered your order is hogwash. I worked decades ago in a tip environment and had the same attitude back then.

Why are people stuck on tipping based on percentage of meal cost?

I order a steak at a nice restaraunt (for example, West) and it costs me $40.
My friend next to me orders a chicken salad and it costs $15.

The server spent the exact same time and energy providing both of us for the night. But the customer who ordered a more expensive item is punished by societal norms?


I have heard many times servers say something along the lines of "I got stiffed on a $100 tab tonight"... Were they really expecting $20+ because they brought a nice bottle of wine for two people? Then on the other end of this scale, the server could have been running sodas back and forth to a table all night for the same two people who only ordered said soda and an appetizer. Now these soda people have a $20 tab.

Anytime I have brought this up to people (usually friends that are servers and ranting after work or something) they are dumbfounded.

PS for anyone unfamiliar with what "stiffing" is to a server, it most certainly does not mean they got 0.00 on the tip line. It means they did not get the percentage they expected based on total bill.

Exactly my argument when discussing happy hours with my friends...I tipped a minimum of ten bucks on a $30 tab since our server brought numerous beers throughout the night...They stuck with being cheap and tipped 20%

Why are people stuck on tipping based on percentage of meal cost?

I order a steak at a nice restaraunt (for example, West) and it costs me $40.
My friend next to me orders a chicken salad and it costs $15.

The server spent the exact same time and energy providing both of us for the night. But the customer who ordered a more expensive item is punished by societal norms?


I have heard many times servers say something along the lines of "I got stiffed on a $100 tab tonight"... Were they really expecting $20+ because they brought a nice bottle of wine for two people? Then on the other end of this scale, the server could have been running sodas back and forth to a table all night for the same two people who only ordered said soda and an appetizer. Now these soda people have a $20 tab.

Anytime I have brought this up to people (usually friends that are servers and ranting after work or something) they are dumbfounded.

PS for anyone unfamiliar with what "stiffing" is to a server, it most certainly does not mean they got 0.00 on the tip line. It means they did not get the percentage they expected based on total bill.

I know nobody who uses the term "stiffed" for anything other than no tip. I assure you, I know more waiters than you do.

I get what you're trying to intimate with your story, but the idea that a $20 tip on $100 inexplicably feels far less bearable than a $125 ticket with no tip is just crazy.

What's funny, is that it's precisely the people who choose to tip poorly (<18%) that will be most surprisingly displeased were the system to ever change. Dinner would at the very least become more expensive (at least 20% more expensive).

Good service gets tipped. Bad services gets justifiably stiffed. The attitude that a tip is mandatory just because the service staff took and delivered your order is hogwash. I worked decades ago in a tip environment and had the same attitude back then.

Yep…that sure is all they did to make sure you could eat dinner without any work but going to the restaurant and sitting down.

while at my honeymoon in bora bora our hotel restuarants had a built in 12% service charge on everything that had to do with food/drink. Like a lot of oversea countries tipping was a no no. I thought it was awesome and the service was top notch.

But we were told above that if you have automatic tipping, that means there is no incentive for giving good service. This must be the exception to the rule. ;)

I know of an incentive...Called staying employed

If the server gives bad service, then yes, speak to the management and they WILL remove the gratuity. Plain and simple. The main reason for the auto tip is to protect the server from the IRS. Servers are subject (as is the restaurant) to audits from the IRS. Sometimes when there is a larger party, and only one person paying the tab, they sometimes get "stickershock" from not realizing how much it would cost to wine and dine lets, say 15 people. There are many times when that one person got in over his head with such a large tab, that they end up punishing the server with a low tip. The IRS does have the ability to look at the amount of sales for a server anf believe me, they want to see the server claiming x amount of dollars in grats compared to their sales. So one of the main reasons for the auto tip is to protect the server from having to get taxed on nothing. And yes, I already know thats crappy, but thats the way it is. Servers have no way of changing tax laws, they are just required to make the IRS happy in that particular area. This is also out of the restaurants control as well.

Exactly! Like every single other job in the world. I have to smile and be uber kind to customers every day. Imagine how nice I'd be if I got tipped! :)

And the fact that most folks take pride in doing their job well...Restaurant business isn't unique

I know nobody who uses the term "stiffed" for anything other than no tip. I assure you, I know more waiters than you do.

I get what you're trying to intimate with your story, but the idea that a $20 tip on $100 inexplicably feels far less bearable than a $125 ticket with no tip is just crazy.


Perhaps it depends on the establishment or area. I, too, was under the impression that being 'stiffed' meant zero tip. But I was surprised when I found out about several servers claiming they were "stiffed" when they were actually just "shorted" for a better term. I think stiffed should be reserved for zero tippers, I find it hard to understand since it is all subjective at that point.

And yes, I mostly threw that PS line in that post to help clarify for that specific incident.

So let's quit beating around the bush here. For wage-based system advocates, I'd like to see the following questions answered:

What should a server's wage be? And what, if any, benefits should be included?

What should their job entail?

What should bartender, host, and bus staff be paid, if those positions should even still exist?

What is an acceptable rise in menu prices to implement the new system?

Even though I used to be a server back in the day...I do agree with severely reducing a tip for intentionally rude or sub-par service. The issue here is people who walk into a full service restaurant knowing full-well that they are about to be served by someone who works for those gratuities to put food on the table and pay their bills, and then try to find reasons to not pay for the service provided even if the service was good.

Im sure some of you have seen some of the ridiculous receipts out of las vegas that have added gratuity built in like this http://www.buzzfeed.com/percival/190000-bar-tab-from-a-las-vegas-nightclub-1v0u

granted if you are going to spend that much at a bar money is no issue, but should you have to pay $30,000 tip? seems way overboard and there should be a cap. I want that server job if they get it all. but I would assume something like that amount gets split up.

I also like how there is a blank line at the bottom just in case you wanted to add more

1. I hate when waiters or former watiers get mad at people for not tipping enough. How much you're paid is between you and your employer. Gratuity is just that; gratuitous. It's something extra and it's not a right.

2. If your wait staff is being chronically stiffed on tips to the point that you have to add gratuity to the check automatically, then perhaps the problem is that your wait staff sucks and that's why they're not getting tips.

3. I'm with Pete on tip creep. A percentage tip takes care of inflation. If a burger cost more today than it did in 2000, then 15% of a more costly burger is going to be more.

4. Also, I'm tired of EVERYONE wanting a tip. You see tip jars on counters in so many establishments these days. At the cleaners, coffee place, sandwich place etc. These places get paid a wage. That's your job. Don't expect a tip for doing what you were hired to do.

5. I've read a few articles about restaurants that have decided to pay their wait staff a normal wage and do away with tips. It's not a gratuity added on or a percentage added to the ticket; it's a wage. And the result has been better service because the wait staff isn't worried about getting paid or getting stiffed and it takes the odd and sometimes uncomfortable dynamic out of the customer/waiter relationship. That puts the onus on the employer. Hence if a waiter sucks, they get fired, not a 3 cent tip. If you're afraid that it will raise the cost of the food too much, then there's still Taco Bell et. al. That sounds like the way to go to me.+1

FWIW, I've tipped far more than the order total more than once, and encourage others to consider the same.

An example would be some inexpensive nacho orders and soda, when we sat and sat and sat and grazed more than once in the process of catching up with old friends. I knew well we had the table for two, if not three, typical rotations for a table. To tip on the tab alone in my opinion would be to mistreat a server, and I find most to be cordial and fun folk. Not my style to whiz on a stranger's shoes, and definitely not on the shoes of someone who is likely to carry my food and drink in the future.

FWIW, I've tipped far more than the order total more than once, and encourage others to consider the same.

An example would be some inexpensive nacho orders and soda, when we sat and sat and sat and grazed more than once in the process of catching up with old friends. I knew well we had the table for two, if not three, typical rotations for a table. To tip on the tab alone in my opinion would be to mistreat a server, and I find most to be cordial and fun folk. Not my style to whiz on a stranger's shoes, and definitely not on the shoes of someone who is likely to carry my food and drink in the future.

That's good bull, and similar to what another poster said about happy hours. If I go somewhere and take up a table with a buddy and just have some cheap swill for 3 hours to catch a game, I take care of that server appropriately. There have even been times where I'll try to let the server know our intentions up front, and sometimes they appreciate that, so that they can take care of other tables with food, as long as they kept an eye on our beers.

Boo-Hoo. Then don't work at Luby's! (that's just my sarcasm venting)

I worked at plenty of places as a waiter that had terrible tipping customers........ guess what? When I realized it wasn't my attitude or skills that were hurting my income - but, in fact, either the restaurant and/or its customers - I got a job doing the same thing for more money somewhere else.

There are plenty of days and shifts as a waiter or bartender that don't pay enough to make it worth the effort - but you either suck it up, because its part of the job, or you move on. You think a Tuesday night bartending at the former 5th Seasons Inn at Broadway Ext and 63rd made me anything? Nope. But the weekend 'free bar' for guests made it so worth putting up with the other crap the rest of the week.

If the only flag you've got to fly is the, "those damn pesky penny pinching Christians on Sundays from noon to three" then you don't have my sympathy on this issue.

How about instead of bitching about the people who actually ensure you have a job (your customers) you re-evaluate if the 'problem' really is a problem and how you and the restaurant can overcome it without annoying, inconveniencing or otherwise causing your customers to become 'former customers.'

WTF are you talking about? I averaged about 21% in tips. i wasn't bitching about tips. I haven't been a waiter in years. I was explaining that the culture we live in dictates that you tip between 15 and 20% for good to excellent service. If the service sucks, don't tip. Are you confusing my posts with someone else?

It is true that the worst tips are on Sunday after church gets out, as anyone who works in the restaurant industry will attest.

Yep…that sure is all they did to make sure you could eat dinner without any work but going to the restaurant and sitting down.

Those two events are not even close to being comparable to somebody who knows from which they speak.

Why are people stuck on tipping based on percentage of meal cost?

I order a steak at a nice restaraunt (for example, West) and it costs me $40.
My friend next to me orders a chicken salad and it costs $15.

The server spent the exact same time and energy providing both of us for the night. But the customer who ordered a more expensive item is punished by societal norms?

I have heard many times servers say something along the lines of "I got stiffed on a $100 tab tonight"... Were they really expecting $20+ because they brought a nice bottle of wine for two people? Then on the other end of this scale, the server could have been running sodas back and forth to a table all night for the same two people who only ordered said soda and an appetizer. Now these soda people have a $20 tab.

Anytime I have brought this up to people (usually friends that are servers and ranting after work or something) they are dumbfounded.

PS for anyone unfamiliar with what "stiffing" is to a server, it most certainly does not mean they got 0.00 on the tip line. It means they did not get the percentage they expected based on total bill.

I would say I was dumbfounded, but I've never been a waiter or waitress.
All I can say is: That is the most unexpectedly brilliant way of viewing "the issue" that I've ever read.

WTF are you talking about? I averaged about 21% in tips. i wasn't bitching about tips. I haven't been a waiter in years. I was explaining that the culture we live in dictates that you tip between 15 and 20% for good to excellent service. If the service sucks, don't tip. Are you confusing my posts with someone else?

It is true that the worst tips are on Sunday after church gets out, as anyone who works in the restaurant industry will attest.

No confusion here.... Actually you were 'bitching about tips' - specifically Sunday Crowd tips and more broadly, "The larger the party, the crappier the tip."


It is true that the worst tips are on Sunday after church gets out, as anyone who works in the restaurant industry will attest.

Maybe, maybe not - regardless, we're talking about 1-4 hours of an entire work week. You said yourself you averaged 21% in tips.

I don't have a horse in this race other than to banter back and forth on the subject based on my perspective.

FWIW, I've tipped far more than the order total more than once, and encourage others to consider the same.

An example would be some inexpensive nacho orders and soda, when we sat and sat and sat and grazed more than once in the process of catching up with old friends. I knew well we had the table for two, if not three, typical rotations for a table. To tip on the tab alone in my opinion would be to mistreat a server, and I find most to be cordial and fun folk. Not my style to whiz on a stranger's shoes, and definitely not on the shoes of someone who is likely to carry my food and drink in the future.
Ditto. I've done the same thing many times for the very same reasons.

We just booked our office Christmas party yesterday and when we were looking at places, all of them had mandatory 20% tip added except one place which was 22% (McNellies) and Dave and Busters which was 18%. My standard is 20% so I don't mind unless we get one waiter for our party of 25.

If you would like the kind of service you get when servers aren't tipped and make something like minimum wage you are always welcome to go to McDonalds.

So many cheap people in the world, seriously, if you can't afford the tip, don't eat at full service restaurants. Personally I prefer the tip system, I was a waiter and bartender years ago in my college years and it was excellent training for the real work world in how to talk to and treat people.

Also, don't forget that very often the tip you give to the waiter is also partly going to the bartender, the hostess and the bus boy. There are lots of people making sure you are taken care of when you eat out. Don't be a cheap ass, take care of them right back.

Dayna Morales, Waitress And Marine, Denied Tip Because Of Her 'Gay Lifestyle' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/14/dayna-morales-marine-tip-gay-lifestyle_n_4273801.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices)

And it wasn't even a Sunday. Seems like a good argument on why minimum wage as a "floor" should be standard.

Dayna Morales, Waitress And Marine, Denied Tip Because Of Her 'Gay Lifestyle' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/14/dayna-morales-marine-tip-gay-lifestyle_n_4273801.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices)

And it wasn't even a Sunday. Seems like a good argument on why minimum wage as a "floor" should be standard.

What? Because someone misses out on a ~$20 tip, we should reform the minimum wage for servers?
It's entirely possible to make a killing on the right nights waiting tables. You certainly don't get rich doing it, and sometimes don't even get by, but I don't think it's part of our culture that wait staff is the pinnacle job in anybody's career progression.
You need to come up with a better argument.
BTW, what makes you think it didn't happen on a Sunday?

No, we should reform the minimum wage for servers because it is the right thing to do. While it may not be an occupation that is a pinnacle job, it is one of the most popular of occupations by females w/o a post H.S. education. A significant number of these women have children, and not only do they not get minimum wage, they rarely get any benefits either. No sick time, no vacation time, no insurance. Nor does this not take into account the harassment these workers receive from the public (such as exhibited) or sexual harassment of another nature. While it can be tut tut'd away and be told "go somewhere else" these workers in many cases do not have the luxury of being out of work looking for something else. I guess they could ask their parents for a loan to start a business, but how viable is that?

I can tell it did not happen on a Sunday by the date on the receipt, but I guess Wed. night is the second most popular time for the cheap crowd to be out.