An application has been submitted to allow a live music / event venue to be established at 415 - 421 NW 23rd, which is immediately east of the Tower Theater.

I just had a long phone conversation with the proprietor who most recently managed the Granada Theater (http://granadatheater.com/) in Dallas (incredibly awesome music venue).

He has investors and the plan is to combine the three large lease spaces immediately east of Tower Theater into about 17,500 square feet of event / music space. To put that in perspective, Grandad's Bar just down the road is around 4,000 square feet.

If this all passes the various zoning and design committees -- which it certainly should -- the venue would feature a high-quality stage and sound and light system.

It would also be a bar, but a "music-first" place, rather than a bar with a band in the corner.

First and foremost, the ownership group will be bringing in promotion expertise and while they hope to attract a wide variety of acts, the main focus will be indie bands.


One obvious question: Why not do this in the Tower Theater? A: That was their first choice but the current owners seem content to sit on that property for the foreseeable future.


We all know that OKC is in desperate need of not only good music venues, but the promotion expertise to attract acts that routinely go to Cain's in Tulsa or even the Granada. If everything goes to plan, this will be a big step in that direction.



Marque type signage including roof and building front mounted with
changeability for announcement of upcoming shows. Signs may be lighted
including but not limited to neon and moving images.


The proposed SPUD contains two structures; the applicant does not anticipate demolition of
either structure at this time. The applicant intends to develop the site for an entertainment
venue/event space

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/23rdliveb.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/23rdlive.jpg



These are the three spaces, representing about 17,500 square feet of space.

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2682/R046601260001sA.jpg

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2682/R046601240001sA.jpg

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2682/R046601220001sA.jpg

Awesome! Just what we need!

Fantastic news!

Pete, did you get a sense for how extensive a renovation they are planning? (new façade, etc.)

Any word on the name or what the cost is going to be? To make it look like one contiguous space, I would think they would need to do some extensive exterior renovation. Of course, the question everyone is going to ask, what about parking? I would guess the lot across the street from the Tower Theatre would be the most obvious place.

I cannot believe that the Tower Theater owners shot themselves in the foot by sitting on the sidelines. A live music venue was the highest use for their property. Having a venue next door destroys the value of their property.

I cannot believe that the Tower Theater owners shot themselves in the foot by sitting on the sidelines. A live music venue was the highest use for their property. Having a venue next door destroys the value of their property.

The only thing that would be better than a live music venue at the Tower Theatre would be an Alamo Draft House. It will probably end up being like the Will Rogers Theatre events center.

I cannot believe that the Tower Theater owners shot themselves in the foot by sitting on the sidelines. A live music venue was the highest use for their property. Having a venue next door destroys the value of their property.

Maybe, maybe not. Music venues do well in clusters, rather than isolation. Granada is the best venue on lower Greenville, but it's not the only one. A successful venue here could spur a redevelopment of Tower Theatre. If finding financing is really what is holding Marty back, maybe proof of concept next door will help?

Hopefully they get rid of the horrible brown overhang.

What's the square footage of the ballroom down by Crossroads Mall?

What's the square footage of the ballroom down by Crossroads Mall?

21,000, so slightly larger than this proposed venue.

This may work out for the best. Have the music venue in this location and eventually convert the Tower Theater into an indie movie theater like Circle Cinema.

21,000, so slightly larger than this proposed venue.

But this will be the largest, centrally located venue, right?

But this will be the largest, centrally located venue, right?

Bricktown Event Center is bigger.

It's funny that everyone talks about OKC needing something like Cain's in Tulsa, but the Bricktown Events Center is very similar, it just doesn't book the acts.


What we need is promotion and it sounds like that might be the best thing about this new project.

Bricktown Event Center is bigger.

It's funny that everyone talks about OKC needing something like Cain's in Tulsa, but the Bricktown Events Center is very similar, it just doesn't book the acts.


What we need is promotion and it sounds like that might be the best thing about this new project.

Yeah, except it pretty much sucks.

How so?

Cains looks cool from the outside but it's just a big open space with a stage and people standing around.

Bricktown Event Center is bigger.

It's funny that everyone talks about OKC needing something like Cain's in Tulsa, but the Bricktown Events Center is very similar, it just doesn't book the acts.


What we need is promotion and it sounds like that might be the best thing about this new project.

I have always wondered why this venue never has any good concerts. It has been sponsored by COCA-COLA and CHEVY, yet most of the good shows are at the Diamond Ballroom. The Diamond isn't bad on the inside and has fantastic parking that's free. It just looks crappy from the outside and is a little out of the way. A good venue in a emerging district mixed with new/talented promoters is exactly what we need. I saw a great show at Diamond about a month ago. There was a great crowd that night and the band was pretty taken aback by OKC's enthusiasm for them. There is quite a bit of demand for quality live shows here, and I hope this project is able to tap into that.

How so?

Cains looks cool from the outside but it's just a big open space with a stage and people standing around.

OK, that's the way most concert venues are. However, Cain's is dripping with charm, wood floors, etc. Bricktown Events Center not so much. Not to mention the godawful acoustics.

The only thing that would be better than a live music venue at the Tower Theatre would be an Alamo Draft House. It will probably end up being like the Will Rogers Theatre events center.
Alamo isn't going into old single screen theaters, they are going into former multi-screen theaters or building new multi-screen theaters.

OK, that's the way most concert venues are. However, Cain's is dripping with charm, wood floors, etc. Bricktown Events Center not so much. Not to mention the godawful acoustics.

Sounds very much like the Farmer's Market.


I guess my point is that there are venues, just very little in bookings.

OK, that's the way most concert venues are. However, Cain's is dripping with charm, wood floors, etc. Bricktown Events Center not so much. Not to mention the godawful acoustics.
Acoustics can be modified to something reasonable if an owner has the desire to spend the money to improve them.

IIRC, the is the former home of Design Resources owned by Michael Smith (who used to post here as Old Downtown Guy).

IIRC, the is the former home of Design Resources owned by Michael Smith (who used to post here as Old Downtown Guy).

No, that space is now Back Door BBQ: 315 NW 23rd.

This is really awesome to hear. I hoped one day to have the resources to open a music venue, and still may. But it sounds like the godawful Diamond Ballroom and whatever other hole in the wall venues we have will either shape up or ship out. Hopefully DCF aligns with these guys or a new set of promoters steps up to bring better acts here.

Acoustics can be modified to something reasonable if an owner has the desire to spend the money to improve them.

Anything can be improved with investment. To this point none of our venues have shown any desire to be better because they had no competition. And for the record, Cains is a great venue with amazing gear and great acoustics. If we can get a few venues here at LEAST to that standard, then maybe it'll raise the game here and actually make this a great music town. There are really incredible artists here but there's no where to play where you don't have to bring your own gear, run your own sound, and peddle your own CD's all to play for tips.

The owner of the Chevy Bricktown Event Center has publicly discussed the fact that he is making significant changes including addition of a wraparound balcony and major upgrades to the sound and acoustics. The official announcement was made a few months ago at an event announcing Chevy's official sponsoring partnership with Bricktown and with the event center. I don't believe it was covered in any media, so you won't find links. He is aware that the building is, as it sets, an event space that occasionally hosts concerts. He wants it to be a music venue, capable of hosting other events.

That said, it has hosted a number of great shows including Wilco, The White Stripes, The Killers, The Avett Brothers, Grace Potter, Derek Trucks, The Flaming Lips, Loretta Lynn, Morrissey and others. It's not without precedent for that venue to host excellent shows, and the owner would like very much to host more of them. The planned improvements should help tremendously.

^

As always, thanks for the inside Bricktown scoop.

Weren't most those concerts some time ago? What changed where they pretty much stopped?

I actually like that venue. I organized a class reunion there 10 years ago and we hired Banana Seat (10-piece band) and it was all awesome.

The stage is nice and high providing good site lines from anywhere on a crowded floor, the proportions are good, etc.


I've been told that what really needs to happen is good promotion and then have several venues with good sound systems so they can all feed off each other. As I said earlier, this seems like a step in that direction and I think everyone can feel the collective hunger for a better live music scene in OKC. I suspect if done right, there would be a tremendous response.

Banana Seat at the Bricktown Brewery (way back when) was always a good time. They did their schtick very well.

Yes, though all of those shows mentioned happened within the past decade, most of them happened 3, 5 or more years ago. I think it definitely is an issue with promoters to some extent. While the owner has an excellent relationship with David Fitzgerald (DCF Concerts), Fitzgerald DID buy the Diamond a few years ago. So naturally, he wants to put shows into his own venue to support it, and to gain the most revenue.

The next issue if DCF is booking is that if the show is really special he is likely to send it instead to Cain's Ballroom (he regularly books at Cain's), where he is likely to get a sellout, or at least better attendance. Shows TEND to be better attended in Tulsa for a number of reasons, including the fact that Tulsa, historically, is more live-music-inclined than OKC. Simply put, they are in the habit of going to see live music, so they are more inclined to go. Does that make sense?

Another dynamic, in my opinion, is that OKC folks will happily drive to Tulsa to see a show, whereas Tulsa folks usually couldn't be bothered to come to OKC, (usually correctly) assuming the band will be back through Tulsa soon, anyway. I would estimate at any given show in Tulsa that maybe 10-20% or more in attendance are from the OKC area.

I also know many OKC folks would turn down a show at an OKC venue like the Diamond and drive to THE SAME SHOW at Cain's or Brady if they can, just because they prefer the Tulsa venues. I saw this happen several weeks ago when Local Natives played back-to-back at Cain's then Diamond, and know if OKC people who chose the Tulsa show over the one here. We don't do ourselves any favors there.

Hopefully as new venues emerge (this one, the newly-opened Bricktown Music Hall (http://www.bricktownmusichall.com/)) and as the Chevy Bricktown Event Center improves, promoters AND artists will take more of an interest in OKC.

There is also the prospect of the Wormy Dog group doing a bigger venue in east Bricktown.

It seems we have the venues and will soon have more, but what we are lacking is quality promotion... I truly believe that if we get some good indie bands there are enough young and young-minded people in OKC now that they will eat it up with a spoon.

I fall firmly into the young-minded category. Most shows I go to (and I go to a lot) are punk/indie shows at places like The Opolis, The Conservatory, ACM Performance Lab, Diamond, Cain's, Brady, where the average age is probably 20-25 and everyone is looking at me wondering who brought their dad to the show.

I've been pushing hard for the Bricktown Music Hall guys to add plenty of good indie shows to the mix, and they are listening. Only a few shows so far, but great venue reviews from the bands who've played and the fans in attendance, so hopefully quality bookings start turning for them.

There is also the prospect of the Wormy Dog group doing a bigger venue in east Bricktown.

It seems we have the venues and will soon have more, but what we are lacking is quality promotion... I truly believe that if we get some good indie bands there are enough young and young-minded people in OKC now that they will eat it up with a spoon.
I agree, promotion is the key problem. Even 15-20 years ago the Brewery would pull in some pretty big names and crowds with a less than optimal venue for concerts.

Yes, that is right about the Bricktown Brewery.

I know The Outfield played there, among others.


Just seems like we can never get anything cohesive... Venues that are not really investing in their equipment, no consistency in booking, etc.

There is absolutely no reason there shouldn't be at least a decent live music scene in OKC, or any city of our size.

The Outfield, Smithereens, Flock of Seagulls, The Tragically Hip, Spin Doctors, lots of others. Dave Matthews was booked there once, but the show was pre-empted by the Murrah bombing and rescheduled at a different venue.

Molly's Yes and Caroline's Spine played there quite a bit, bands with Tulsa connections who had major label albums. I remember a lot of bands from the early 90's era played there.

What's the square footage of the ballroom down by Crossroads Mall?

Who cares. That place sucks.

Sorry, but the promoters in OKC who dream big don't have money. The ones with money don't take risks. It absolutely sucks for a city of its size -- and with the musical talent that is from here -- that OKC is such a weak, weak place for touring artists.

Buildings are nice, but without the right promoter(s), we will never have a music scene as good as Tulsa.

Yes, though all of those shows mentioned happened within the past decade, most of them happened 3, 5 or more years ago. I think it definitely is an issue with promoters to some extent. While the owner has an excellent relationship with David Fitzgerald (DCF Concerts), Fitzgerald DID buy the Diamond a few years ago. So naturally, he wants to put shows into his own venue to support it, and to gain the most revenue.

The next issue if DCF is booking is that if the show is really special he is likely to send it instead to Cain's Ballroom (he regularly books at Cain's), where he is likely to get a sellout, or at least better attendance. Shows TEND to be better attended in Tulsa for a number of reasons, including the fact that Tulsa, historically, is more live-music-inclined than OKC. Simply put, they are in the habit of going to see live music, so they are more inclined to go. Does that make sense?

Another dynamic, in my opinion, is that OKC folks will happily drive to Tulsa to see a show, whereas Tulsa folks usually couldn't be bothered to come to OKC, (usually correctly) assuming the band will be back through Tulsa soon, anyway. I would estimate at any given show in Tulsa that maybe 10-20% or more in attendance are from the OKC area.

I also know many OKC folks would turn down a show at an OKC venue like the Diamond and drive to THE SAME SHOW at Cain's or Brady if they can, just because they prefer the Tulsa venues. I saw this happen several weeks ago when Local Natives played back-to-back at Cain's then Diamond, and know if OKC people who chose the Tulsa show over the one here. We don't do ourselves any favors there.

Hopefully as new venues emerge (this one, the newly-opened Bricktown Music Hall (http://www.bricktownmusichall.com/)) and as the Chevy Bricktown Event Center improves, promoters AND artists will take more of an interest in OKC.

DCF is part of our problem. They force everything to Diamond, which they own and which sucks, and they tend to book a lot of schlock.

I am very excited about the prospect overall of a new music venue, I just hope they commit to really booking acts multiple times a month. We need touring indie artists of note, who are on current tours, not just reunion crapola.

Sounds very much like the Farmer's Market.


I guess my point is that there are venues, just very little in bookings.

That venue has a different problem than the Bricktown Coca Cola Events Center.

I agree that Tulsa has historcally been more live music oriented, just as they have been more arts oriented. Like many things though, OKC has nowhere to go but up. Demand for live music will increase as more and more twentysomethings choose to call OKC home. Tulsa may always be the live music capital of the state, but there is no reason you should be limited to only red-dirt country in a city of 1.3 million people. I guess it goes back to the entire fact of life here that permeates every aspect of development in OKC; the people with the money refuse to take risks.

Ok, back to the proposed venue. From an urban revitalization standpoint, this is an unfortunate choice of use. I'd much rather other uses be in this space and they somehow get the Dillons to sell the Tower Theater to them and use that. Maybe that's what this is? A leverage tactic to get them to sell Tower?

This is fantastic news. Hopefully renderings come sooner than later.

Ok, back to the proposed venue. From an urban revitalization standpoint, this is an unfortunate choice of use. I'd much rather other uses be in this space and they somehow get the Dillons to sell the Tower Theater to them and use that. Maybe that's what this is? A leverage tactic to get them to sell Tower?

What to do when they won't sell and you know there is a massive need/demand for a live music venue in that area?


My understanding is they asked Dillion for a price, and although it was steep, this group was willing to pay it. Then Dillon changed his mind and didn't want to sell.

And I don't think this was the first time he's turned interested parties away.


Dillon & Co. have owned the Tower for over eight years now.

What to do when they won't sell and you know there is a massive need/demand for a live music venue in that area?


My understanding is they asked Dillion for a price, and although it was steep, this group was willing to pay it. Then Dillon changed his mind and didn't want to sell.

And I don't think this was the first time he's turned interested parties away.


Dillon & Co. have owned the Tower for over eight years now.

Oh, I agree, there's not much you can do when they won't sell. It's just danged unfortunate that they won't. It's just an unfortunate situation.

I believe the now well-organized Uptown merchant association is starting to lose patience with the Tower situation, as we all are.

It's one thing when you can't get financing or the economics just won't work, it's quite another just to squat on a very important piece of property.

Well on the positive side, if the Tower isn't going to come back to life for awhile, this is exactly what that dead block needs to bridge the gap between Cheevers/Grandad's/Backdoor/Tuckers/Taco Bell (Hehe) and the Rise/Big Truck/Pizza 23, etc. This is the kind of development that will begin to bring Uptown closer to it's true potential, without the Tower being developed. To be honest, while frustrating, if everything around it gets developed and that is all that's left for awhile, it doesn't really matter. We're still getting the exact same venue that was supposed to bring the tower, and thus that part of the district, to life right next door. The Tower is iconic and important but in the end it's just a vacant building space and it's not preventing the district from getting the live music venue/draw it desperately needs. Should be interesting to see what happens but I don't think the Tower Theater is near as crucial to the success of 23rd St. as some are making it out to be.

I believe the now well-organized Uptown merchant association is starting to lose patience with the Tower situation, as we all are.

It's one thing when you can't get financing or the economics just won't work, it's quite another just to squat on a very important piece of property.

But yeah, it's freaking ridiculous that Dillon can't make it work...if Landrun Commercial could find financing to renovate basically an entire city block that is arguably in near as bad of condition as the Tower...there is really no excuse. Dillon just found out how much groups are willing to pay for his damn property and wants to see how much more he can get out of it after the rest of uptown is developed.

It seems we have the venues and will soon have more, but what we are lacking is quality promotion... I truly believe that if we get some good indie bands there are enough young and young-minded people in OKC now that they will eat it up with a spoon.

I have been singing this song for a long time now. It is interesting too how enamored people are with Cain's as a space. They book good acts and it has a great history, which is what I like about it, but as an actual space it is relatively pedestrian. It's a good room, but not a "wow, this place is amazing" type room. I think it's legacy is more about the talent that has played there than the actual venue.

But, as you keep saying, the key element is promotion. It is interesting, because just the other day I was talking about what a void there is here right now and that even when DCF does do some good shows, they seem very poorly operated. I was wondering how long it would be for competent promotion in North Texas to recognize the potential market opportunities in OKC. It's such a great expansion opportunity for them. They could even use it to do a sort of 2-in-one by booking a band on tour in both Dallas and OKC and leverage some of their admin and promotion costs. OKC is a great routing date for a lot tours, which helps the agents, and the logistics of a promoter working in both markets makes a lot of sense.

Funny though, how it starting to sound like we might go from famine to feast. I just hope saturation doesn't become a factor.

I agree that Tulsa has historcally been more live music oriented, just as they have been more arts oriented.

I like our art events better. Tulsa's probably better on the "fine arts" side of the spectrum, but it certainly is in no way better than OKC is local art talent or events.

They force everything to Diamond, which they own and which sucks, and they tend to book a lot of schlock.

They do a crappy job of booking that place. Interestingly, though, I have been to a couple of shows there that sounded better than anything I have seen at Cain's.


I also know many OKC folks would turn down a show at an OKC venue like the Diamond and drive to THE SAME SHOW at Cain's or Brady if they can, just because they prefer the Tulsa venues.

I always try and check Dallas if something isn't coming here. There are definitely some better venues than Cain's around DFW, certainly in terms of charm and acoustics.

Tulsa and Dallas are my go-to places for concerts. I always make a night (or weekend) of it and get a hotel near Cains, in Deep Ellum, Lower Greenville etc. I've been to a few shows at Diamond Ballroom and would not go back if I could help it. The shows themselves weren't bad at all but you don't get the whole experience there that you would in Tulsa or Dallas. I cannot wait for this venue to come in so I can have this experience in my back yard and support OKC businesses and Uptown. Excited for what this will bring to our city!

Where does everyone reckon parking will be? Or should be.

I asked about parking and there will be none dedicated.

I bet people will start using that old lot directly across 23rd, although it's owned by the Tower Theater people.

Otherwise, there is scattered parking behind the strip on 23rd and hopefully people will be walking between bars and restaurants and retail anyway.

Where does everyone reckon parking will be? Or should be.

THAT was "ed zachary" my first thought . . .

Where does everyone reckon parking will be? Or should be.

My sharing of this thread on Facebook raised he same question. If the place holds 1000 people (just a rough estimate), parking is going to be quite an issue I imagine. Hell, parking at big truck can be an issue sometimes.

There are venues like this in every city, quite a few of them in old theaters in Denver and clubs scattered all over Austin that parking ends up being in neighborhoods. That does create issues in the neighborhoods but it is just a fact of like in these older areas that are transitioning into night life districts.

My sharing of this thread on Facebook raised he same question. If the place holds 1000 people (just a rough estimate), parking is going to be quite an issue I imagine. Hell, parking at big truck can be an issue sometimes.

This is going to be an issue for sure. BUT at the same time, this will be one of our first concert venues in the middle of an active district. I kind of like that this place won't be a single entity for people to park, attend, and leave. Uptown will have to come up with a solution, but until that happens, people will have to actually park and walk through the district like they would in bigger cities.

Maybe this will allow us to have a concert venue and something like the Alamo draft house right next to it.

This is going to be an issue for sure. BUT at the same time, this will be one of our first concert venues in the middle of an active district. I kind of like that this place won't be a single entity for people to park, attend, and leave. Uptown will have to come up with a solution, but until that happens, people will have to actually park and walk through the district like they would in bigger cities.

This is a good point. 23rd will be very vibrant when there's a sell out show.

Also, I would imagine that a great many of those people shouldn't be driving anyway. Cabs are always an option.

This is a good point. 23rd will be very vibrant when there's a sell out show.

Also, I would imagine that a great many of those people shouldn't be driving anyway. Cabs are always an option.

Who knows? Maybe the street car will be an option eventually as well.

Who knows? Maybe the street car will be an option eventually as well.

The only way it will ever be an option here is for it to be continued up Broadway and then across 23rd. since those darn Heritage Hills residents won't let it go up Walker.