To your point B - the applicant's spokeswoman testified during the urban design commission hearing that this venue would draw 300-400 people per major show, which is expected to occur twice per week.

C - Hosting events once a month in the Paseo is not nearly as intrusive as hosting the same event twice per week from now on.

D - The applicant has likened this concept to the Granada theatre in Dallas. Those doors open at 7 pm every night (and have 200+ parking spots immediately adjacent to the building). How often are you at home for the night by 7? Would you want college kids, drunk or not, hanging outside of your house every night of the week, just a few yards away from your sleeping children?

E - agreed, its frustrating - but of the entire OKC community, they are the only ones that stepped up to the plate, invested their time and money in effort to make it better. I hope they live up to their timeline of spring 2014.

Is there anything that can be done to prevent the owners of the Tower Theater from developing the two huge vacant lots on the south side or 23rd into surface parking? I have heard that this is their intention. In my opinion a move like that would kill the district's opportunity to be truly special.

Is there anything that can be done to prevent the owners of the Tower Theater from developing the two huge vacant lots on the south side or 23rd into surface parking? I have heard that this is their intention. In my opinion a move like that would kill the district's opportunity to be truly special.

That's truly a shame, but expected. At least they aren't demolishing structures for surface parking though, meaning it can be easily redeveloped when ownership changes hands.

Is there anything that can be done to prevent the owners of the Tower Theater from developing the two huge vacant lots on the south side or 23rd into surface parking? I have heard that this is their intention. In my opinion a move like that would kill the district's opportunity to be truly special.

As it's always been that in the past, I don't see how they could be prevented from that use.

I believe the western part of that lot has always been parking, and the eastern was just a couple of houses until they were demolished sometime in the 70's.

D - The applicant has likened this concept to the Granada theatre in Dallas. Those doors open at 7 pm every night (and have 200+ parking spots immediately adjacent to the building). How often are you at home for the night by 7? Would you want college kids, drunk or not, hanging outside of your house every night of the week, just a few yards away from your sleeping children?

This won't be nearly as big or active as the Granada. I spoke with the owner directly about this; most nights will be smallish crowds.

And I believe the assumption that this will be just college kids is incorrect. Live music would attract people of all ages.


I understand the concern of the surrounding homeowners but remember there was a time when 23rd was fully developed and thriving and the area south of 13th was way more dense than it will probably ever be again. Most people who live in HH/MP/JP now only know the last few decades where those entire areas were almost completely abandoned.

People are going to have to get used to a thriving city core and if you can't tolerate someone parking on your street every once in a while or a little increased traffic or more people in the parks, it's probably time to put your house on the market. There will be plenty of buyers.

Fhh!

;)

What's intersting is that HH is in many ways the cradle of OKC's urban revitalization movement and HP movement. IIRC that organization was the first historic preservation group in the state..or perhaps it was OKC.

But that neighborhood began its comeback in the early 1970s, and many of the homes were not the grand structures we see today; the were chopped up into multi family flop houses and drug houses. The people who came in and revitalized them were the city's first urban pioneers, and it took a lot of hard work to restore that neighborhood to its former glory. At the time, nobody who mattered cared about downtown or the inner city, and I'm sure those people heard from their friends and families that they were crazy.

Of course, many/most of the people responsible for that have moved on, either to the great beyond or more likely by selling. And many of the people who live there now probably have no idea about the sketchy history.

I'm not sure if any of this has any real relevance to the discussion at hand, but it is an interesting irony nonetheless.

I own a house on 25th and Walker. Nearly all my neighbors are old apartments so there's hardly ever parking in front of my house as is. (I park in my garage) I don't care! We love to hang out on the front porch and see people walking all through out the neighborhood. I realize it's going to get much louder on my block but what comes with it will be so great. People are going to have to get used to people parking on the street in front of their houses in this area. As long as the visitors are here to enjoy the neighborhood then I'm happy.

This project goes before the Planning Commission next Thursday, Feb. 27th.

It was approved by urban design with the caveat a parking plan be created.

There are about about a dozen protest letters from people all in Heritage Hills or Mesta Park. Didn't see any from north of 23rd. Among those urging the committee to deny is Chris Lower, proprietor of Big Truck Tacos, Back Yard BBQ and the proposed Pizzeria Gusto as part of The Rise development.

The applicants countered with the following parking survey:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/livepark1.jpg



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/livepark.jpg

Pete, why would Chris Lower want denial?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/lower.jpg

Would it not be more productive to pressure the businesses that will not allow their lots to be used when closed and develop a positive plan than oppose this project? Very disappointing.

Pete, why would Chris Lower want denial?

For the good of the community at large, I'm sure. I mean, it's not like this is a city that doesn't desperately need a good, mid-sized music venue owned and operated by people with a history of great success with such projects. What this city really needs, obviously, before anything like this should be considered, is more empty wasted lots along 23rd street for people to park their cars in.

Lower wants to keep his restaurants in the sweet spot of being just urban enough to claim the distinction while still being a place that suburbanites and out of towners can drive right up to and park in front of like a strip mall fast food place.

Wow. I honestly think parking shouldn't even considered with something like this. If it is good enough, people will come. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't mind being in places with parking issues and with cars filled on every street and parking lot, it makes the area feel more alive, imo. I really hope this passes. What are the chances it doesn't?

Wow. I honestly think parking shouldn't even considered with something like this. If it is good enough, people will come. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't mind being in places with parking issues and with cars filled on every street and parking lot, it makes the area feel more alive, imo. I really hope this passes. What are the chances it doesn't?
The problem is the parking ends up on the streets in the residential areas adjacent to the main strip and creates other issues like people getting mugged on dark neighborhood streets headed back to their vehicles. That has happened in the hot areas of both Austin and Denver and there has been no real resolution to the problems. Most of those areas are not near light rail, especially in the case of South Congress and South Lamar in Austin where light rail doesn't exist. South Broadway in Denver has a light rail station at I-25 which is 3/4 to a mile south of the main business area. The areas developed organically because they were business strips in the past and most around here were developed in the early auto age. It is just hard to get the parking infrastructure developed at the same rate as the areas.

How big of a problem is this supposed impending mugging problem to begin denying new businesses to the district? Seems like a different solution to this hypothetical problem should be sought instead of blocking the development altogether, no?

Pretty sure this property falls within the urban boundaries where there are no parking requirements. This is how places in Bricktown and other districts can just put in a bar or restaurant and let people find parking on their own. Certainly true of the Plaza Distrcit, AA, Deep Deuce, Film Row, etc. Many, many businesses, bars and restaurants without dedicated parking in those areas.

I don't think they can deny this application due to lack of dedicated parking.

Pretty sure this property falls within the urban boundaries where there are no parking requirements. This is how places in Bricktown and other districts can just put in a bar or restaurant and let people find parking on their own. Certainly true of the Plaza Distrcit, AA, Deep Deuce, Film Row, etc. Many, many businesses, bars and restaurants without dedicated parking in those areas.

I don't think they can deny this application due to lack of dedicated parking.

Great news if so.

Parking spaces does not need to be the merit of a good or bad development. How it relates to the development from a planning perspective is much more important. And if it has none, that is even better.

If the parkers are respectful to the surrounding property owners, then there should be no problems. If they leave trash, park in the way of driveways, urinate on lawns, etc., then there will be problems. Without dedicated or available parking, it will be up to everyone to make it work. It won't be the parking that is or isn't the problem, it will be the behavior of the people involved.

My home's curb is green lined on the parking survey and I welcome this development.

This will draw the same people who go to the Plaza District, which really has virtually zero dedicated parking. People park on the streets in the surrounding neighborhoods during large events. And it works.

Most people around here are very inexperienced about parallel street parking. Lots of room on the street is wasted by people not squeezing in tighter, or starting a row too far down the street, leaving not enough room to get an additional car in before or after the intersection. The more districts that embrace on street parallel parking, the more experienced our drivers will be at utilizing it and providing room for a maximum amount of cars in the on street parking.

We are simply scared to not park in a parking lot. That's all this comes down to. The people who live on the affected streets don't know how they will handle it.

At some point we just need to jump in with both feet, even if we are nervous about the unknown. It works in other cities and it can work here. But once we build that big surface lot on 23rd, the rest of the district will embrace those. This is pivotal.

It should be noted that the Blue Note does not have any dedicated parking.

I'm chuckling at the irony of Chris being worried about the parking when, outside of the music venue, his businesses will unquestionably gain the most from a music venue. All of his restaurants are perfect for before/after show crowds, and as long as he can keep people out of his parking lots on show day, he'll still have plenty of guests during the show hours.

The difference between Midtown and 23rd, is that Midtown is not particularly walkable, and Midtown Plaza Courts has a horrible parking situation with no where to go to walk places. 23rd has all the street side parking that doesn't exist for Midtown, and though there are impediments, is still one of the most walkable areas in all of OKC.

Thanks for posting the letter, Pete.

To me, the letter reads like Mr. Lower is concerned more with the effect the music venue will have on the prospects for redevelopment of the Tower Theater, rather than the parking issues.

If the parkers are respectful to the surrounding property owners, then there should be no problems. If they leave trash, park in the way of driveways, urinate on lawns, etc., then there will be problems. Without dedicated or available parking, it will be up to everyone to make it work. It won't be the parking that is or isn't the problem, it will be the behavior of the people involved.
Very true, that is what has created some of the problems in these districts in Austin and Denver. Although Austin really has an issue of people in those neighborhoods adjacent to these districts of the "I have mine" mentality, they move into these areas because they "like the vibe" and then proceed to complain about everything that inconveniences them in the least and try to get changes to make the area more suburban minded. Just like those people who recently bought condos downtown and then complain about the noise that is inherent with living in downtown.


This will draw the same people who go to the Plaza District, which really has virtually zero dedicated parking. People park on the streets in the surrounding neighborhoods during large events. And it works.

Most people around here are very inexperienced about parallel street parking. Lots of room on the street is wasted by people not squeezing in tighter, or starting a row too far down the street, leaving not enough room to get an additional car in before or after the intersection. The more districts that embrace on street parallel parking, the more experienced our drivers will be at utilizing it and providing room for a maximum amount of cars in the on street parking.

We are simply scared to not park in a parking lot. That's all this comes down to. The people who live on the affected streets don't know how they will handle it.

At some point we just need to jump in with both feet, even if we are nervous about the unknown. It works in other cities and it can work here. But once we build that big surface lot on 23rd, the rest of the district will embrace those. This is pivotal.
That is not a problem here in Denver, before my wife changed properties we drove through the Capitol Hill area whenever I dropped her off and it was packed tight on the streets because all those apartments did not have dedicated parking. Many times they are too tight as a co-worker has found out at times not being able to get his car out.

It looks like this is dead for now.

Zoning denied for proposed Uptown live music venue and bar | News OK (http://newsok.com/zoning-denied-for-proposed-uptown-live-music-venue-and-bar/article/3938218)


Zoning for a proposed live music venue and bar along NW 23 in Uptown was unanimously denied by the Oklahoma City Planning Commission over concerns about parking and the possibility the venue would allow underage patrons access toalcohol.

It looks like this is dead for now.

Zoning denied for proposed Uptown live music venue and bar | News OK (http://newsok.com/zoning-denied-for-proposed-uptown-live-music-venue-and-bar/article/3938218)

Figures. This is Oklahoma City. I bet there were some sizable donations from NIMBYs in Heritage Hills to make this happen.

I think a lot of the concern centers around the assumption that if approved, it would hurt the Tower Theater revitalization efforts.

That's all fine, if Marty Dillon would actually do something now. Time to turn up the heat on him to redevelop or sell.

Pete, I know I keep asking you to post things I should be able to find on my own, but can you post the link or a scan of the ruling? I promise if you post a link, I'll be able to do it on my own next time. :tongue: Give a man a fish/teach a man to fish, etc.

They haven't posted the minutes yet but you can see them discussing the project on the archived video, starting at 52:25:

SIRE Public Access (http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=2049&doctype=AGENDA)

I overheard a couple HH residents talking about this a month ago. One was on the fence, the other slightly more against. Their concerns were the unknowns - the lack of a plan about when they'd be open, etc. They also indicated that some HH residents wanted the neighborhood to be officially against the proposal; the two people I heard talking did NOT want to go that route. They said that individual HH residents should be against it if they were against it. I appreciated hearing that. Another thing they mentioned - that they were excited when Granddad's was announced, but that it ended up not being as "classy" as they expected. It was an interesting analysis. Many HH residents think of themselves as classy, so they want classy amenities (i.e. Cheevers), but the majority of new businesses along the 23rd corridor are more take-all-comers... (not sure how to describe it without sounding pejorative - I love the development that has happened).

that they were excited when Granddad's was announced, but that it ended up not being as "classy" as they expected.

It sucks that it wasn't up to their standards, but honestly I wouldn't change a thing about Grandad's. It's tied for my favorite bar in OKC with Skinny Slim's.

It sucks that it wasn't up to their standards, but honestly I wouldn't change a thing about Grandad's. It's tied for my favorite bar in OKC with Skinny Slim's.

I would agree with you there. It's not for everyone. I think there is a need for a place with the selection of McNellies, but in a quieter atmosphere, if that makes sense.

I would agree with you there. It's not for everyone. I think there is a need for a place with the selection of McNellies, but in a quieter atmosphere, if that makes sense.

I would go to a place like that often.

The idea of a classier Grandad's is kind of amusing though. It was pitched as a honky tonk. I'm not sure what a "classy honky tonk" would look like.

I think a lot of the concern centers around the assumption that if approved, it would hurt the Tower Theater revitalization efforts.

That's all fine, if Marty Dillon would actually do something now. Time to turn up the heat on him to redevelop or sell.

Pete,

Have you been able to get a reaction from the Granada people? I wonder if this was a "here or nowhere" plan, or if they are determined to be in the market and will look elsewhere. I still think an experienced promoter could have some serious success in the market with the right venue.

In addition, I'm not sure what Marty Dillon's promotion experience is or what his plan would be for the Tower if he can ever get it open. I think it's going to have to be more than just another Will Rogers theater to justify its renovation costs.

I'll try and get in touch with the proprietor and find out his thoughts.


Also, I really don't understand how the PC can deny an application based on lack of parking, when this particular urban district has no parking requirements.

They stated other reasons for denying, but it seems that shouldn't have even come up as an issue and they should have explained that to residents.

While the proprieter doesn't seem to have his ducks in a tidy row by any stretch, something doesn't smell right here with the PC. They seem to be making up things as they go. I know the Conservatory and the Diamond Ballroom are all ages venues and it doesn't seem to cause enforcement nightmares.

If there are no parking requirements, then there are no parking requirements. If others are allowed to provide all ages shows then why is that a problem here and only here?

I'll try and get in touch with the proprietor and find out his thoughts.


Also, I really don't understand how the PC can deny an application based on lack of parking, when this particular urban district has no parking requirements.

They stated other reasons for denying, but it seems that shouldn't have even come up as an issue and they should have explained that to residents.

Yeah, it would be helpful if that was explained to people, because I am sure it will come up again. If that were the de jure reason for denying, then wouldn't that apply to any business wanting to lease that space? That would basically mean the property owners have to add parking before those spaces could ever be occupied. That would not be a good position for the district to be in.

However, I think we know that this was more about protecting the Tower than parking concerns, at least for the neighboring businesses. And, if that is the case, then it's even more of a shame that delays in opening the venue are now hindering other developments in the area. It's got so much momentum now that it would be a unfortunate if it is unable to fully capitalize on that because of the Tower, especially when I think we all thought it was the tower that was going to originally kick start the area. Now it seems it's holding it back.

As a reminder, they did try to lease the long-vacant parking on the south side of 23rd from the Tower owners, but were rebuked.

As a reminder, they did try to lease the long-vacant parking on the south side of 23rd from the Tower owners, but were rebuked.

It seems to me the Tower owners and the district should be working to find a way to make that lot viable, even if just in the short term. It's pretty much just sitting there unused as they complain about inadequate parking.

It looks like this is dead for now.

Zoning denied for proposed Uptown live music venue and bar | News OK (http://newsok.com/zoning-denied-for-proposed-uptown-live-music-venue-and-bar/article/3938218)Awesome! Looks like Edmond will not be getting any Electronic signs seeing as how things have been going lately.

So we ban herbs, we ban electronic signs, we ban live music venues, we ban stem cell research, we ban abortions, we ban gay marriage... ban ban ban ban... what the hell man. Can this place doing anything other than ban something? St. Anthony expansion has likely been downgraded as reported by another poster... there has been some crappy news lately. Honestly, when is OKC going to really get something cool like the Devon Tower again? At this point, I'm surprised it was even approved lol...

Not trying to be Debbie downer, but I was extremely excited for this project and those aholes at NIMBYS killed another great thing. I really hate those people sometimes. They have done some good, but 99% of the time they do nothing but bitch and gripe about things that are truly good will ultimately provide a huge asset to the city.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to appreciate everything else that is going on here which is truly incredible, but this really sucks.

I think a lot of the concern centers around the assumption that if approved, it would hurt the Tower Theater revitalization efforts.

That's all fine, if Marty Dillon would actually do something now. Time to turn up the heat on him to redevelop or sell.Just out of curiosity, wouldn't this help the Tower's future? More people on the street = more interest in redevelopment?

Not only is it unused, it's completely over-grown with weeds and an eyesore:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/towerparking.jpg

I just watched the segment. This is getting my blood boiling. Looks like I have a weekend research project (i.e., the propriety of the denial).

Not only is it unused, it's completely over-grown with weeds and an eyesore

Hopefully, now that his neighbors have gone to bat for him, they'll be able to say to Dillon, "hey, at least do something with that weed garden you have". I'm no fan of surface parking, but this is a wasted asset. They could even use it as a little outside festival area and put themselves on the street fair circuit that has really blown up and elevated a lot of districts over the last couple of years.

I was watching Steve live tweet about this yesterday and he was fairly critical of the fact that neither Miller nor his architect showed up at the planning commission meeting.

I was watching Steve live tweet about this yesterday and he was fairly critical of the fact that neither Miller nor his architect showed up at the planning commission meeting.

Yeah, that has to be noted as part of this discussion. He was granted many continuances and then failed to show when he had to know that people would be there. I don't think Catherine should have had to come - her design has no matter in the PC case.

... I'm not sure what a "classy honky tonk" would look like.

That's a honky tonk where they clean up the blood and the guts and the beer before it dries and makes the saw dust clump.
Only one of them high flalutin' classy places can afford to give that level of customer service.

As for the denial ... if you aren't willing to take the field and pitch your game, don't be shocked if the umps call a forfeit.

Awesome! Looks like Edmond will not be getting any Electronic signs seeing as how things have been going lately.

So we ban herbs, we ban electronic signs, we ban live music venues, we ban stem cell research, we ban abortions, we ban gay marriage... ban ban ban ban... what the hell man. Can this place doing anything other than ban something? St. Anthony expansion has likely been downgraded as reported by another poster... there has been some crappy news lately. Honestly, when is OKC going to really get something cool like the Devon Tower again? At this point, I'm surprised it was even approved lol...

Not trying to be Debbie downer, but I was extremely excited for this project and those aholes at NIMBYS killed another great thing. I really hate those people sometimes. They have done some good, but 99% of the time they do nothing but bitch and gripe about things that are truly good will ultimately provide a huge asset to the city.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to appreciate everything else that is going on here which is truly incredible, but this really sucks.

+1.

On the positive note, per Steve's chat today, the entertainment venue that will supposedly make Dallas and Kansas City jealous is still likely. I hope when it gets announced its truly a game changer and not just hype like so many other projects that end up being disappointments compared to what was originally expected.

Good point, Kevin. Still bummed we're not going to get a real promoter in this market. The venue is important; the promoter is just as important. There's a reason Tulsa is whipping OKC on the live music front. And to the old people who don't get it (I'm old, myself), having a thriving live music scene is a very important quality of life issue.

Good point, Kevin. Still bummed we're not going to get a real promoter in this market. The venue is important; the promoter is just as important. There's a reason Tulsa is whipping OKC on the live music front. And to the old people who don't get it (I'm old, myself), having a thriving live music scene is a very important quality of life issue.

I agree. OKC is behind in so many ways but the live music scene here is an absolute joke outside of red dirt country acts.

Nm

Good point, Kevin. Still bummed we're not going to get a real promoter in this market. The venue is important; the promoter is just as important. There's a reason Tulsa is whipping OKC on the live music front. And to the old people who don't get it (I'm old, myself), having a thriving live music scene is a very important quality of life issue.



The promoter in question just didn't play this right. He didn't appear to have his ducks in a row, he didn't even manage to show up at important meetings. Guyutes is another 23rd St. development that Mesta/HH folks are skeptical about. The guy behind Guyutes, though, took the bull by the horns and had a face to face meeting with a fairly hostile crowd at a Mesta Park NA event. Not sure he converted anyone to his cause, but I know he defused some of the animosity just by showing and being sincere. This promoter did no such thing, which is another example that he wasn't exactly playing to win.

Many HH residents think of themselves as classy, so they want classy amenities.

The irony is that this venue would be classier than some existing establishments on 23rd, even recent ones like the make-shift snow cone shack that popped up awhile back...

Do the people of Heritage Hills know how lazy we are? Do you think people are going to park on NW 22nd and Hudson, walk north one block, cross 23rd and then go west? No! We are going to park north and walk south so we don't have to cross the street... Duh!

The denial was probably a good one, Miller doesn't seem like the right guy to do this. Furthermore, if you have met and know Marty Dillion, he is completely uninterested in doing anything with the property. He bought it cheap, and just doesn't care to or have the money to do anything. Assuming he wants to sell, nobody is buying (not at his price). People who say we should "pressure" him to do something, you haven't met him. He and his brother are old stoners who don't give a rat's ass about anybody or what anyone thinks of them. I mean, he's been letting it rot since he bought it, over 10 years ago or more. No right minded investor let's a potential cash flow dwindle, unless you just don't care. I'm not saying give up the dream, we all want a restored Tower Theater and district. The only people that can do anything are the City, they can define the building as an "unsecure structure", and Dillon would be fined monthly until remedied. Given Dillon's status and his business' economical impact for the City, no surprise they don't do anything.

The denial was probably a good one, Miller doesn't seem like the right guy to do this.

I couldn't agree more. I think some posters are just coming in with their usual negativity, but I'm surprised by some other's negative reactions. I'll admit that I don't have much prior knowledge of this development beyond reading today's article about the proposal being denied, but from what was written it sounds like Miller had absolutely no clue what he was getting in to. I don't know why anyone would even want a guy with no game-plan undertaking this development. How does he not show up after already asking for 4 continuances? And how does he still not know when/how the development will operate? He clearly hadn't thought this through beyond finding a location. Seems like a total rookie to me. And based on the prior NewsOK article about this venue, Miller wasn't a promoter either. He was simply the venue manager at the Granada in Dallas.
NewsOK: Live Music Venue (http://newsok.com/live-music-venue-could-be-moving-to-uptown-oklahoma-city/article/3904448)

"usual negativity"????? Seriously dude... this was an awesome proposal and it sucks it's not happening. I am still confident OKC will get one soon, but people have the right to complain this didn't happen, just as the sobs that protested against this. This would've been an awesome asset to the city and it is such a shame it didn't happen now. It's back to the waiting game hoping something new gets announced.

"usual negativity"????? Seriously dude... this was an awesome proposal and it sucks it's not happening. I am still confident OKC will get one soon, but people have the right to complain this didn't happen, just as the sobs that protested against this. This would've been an awesome asset to the city and it is such a shame it didn't happen now. It's back to the waiting game hoping something new gets announced.

Well as far as I can tell this guy had no game-plan and continually failed to show up when he should have to defend himself. Are you saying you would rather have a below average development, just to get one as soon as possible, instead of waiting for someone who has the dedication to do an excellent job? You are one of the same posters who talks about how underwhelming other developments finished products are, yet you want someone who was clearly not prepared for this development to undertake it? You can't have it both ways.

My other point was that this guy wasn't even a promoter, as far as I can tell, so he wouldn't have even brought that ability to the table.