The only way it will ever be an option here is for it to be continued up Broadway and then across 23rd. since those darn Heritage Hills residents won't let it go up Walker.

Yeah, I live near walker and 17th...can't say I'd really want it running through HH either. Nothing wrong with Broadway and/or Classen though.

Yeah, I live near walker and 17th...can't say I'd really want it running through HH either. Nothing wrong with Broadway and/or Classen though.

I wonder what the traffic numbers are, respectively, for each of those arteries? I'd like to see a future expansion of the streetcar route up Broadway and west on 23rd. Would be talking about a time frame of 2027 +/- a couple of years depending on how popular streetcar usage is and after Phase II lines have been built.

This project goes to Urban Design on 11/20 and the staff has recommended approval with some comments about the proposed signage.

Live music venue could be moving to uptown Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/live-music-venue-could-be-moving-to-uptown-oklahoma-city/article/3904448)

That venue has a different problem than the Bricktown Coca Cola Events Center.
Actually it's the CHEVY Events Center now.....

I moved a bunch of posts about Tower Theater to here:

Tower Theater - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Tower+Theater&highlight=tower)

This went out to Heritage Hills homeowners:

****************

Update: Music Venue Permit on NW 23rd
Thank you to everyone that have already sent e-mails regarding the Music Venue Permit on 23rd. Based on your e-mails, the planning director has asked the applicant to defer his application until he is able to work out the issues with their application.

Once the applicant responds to their request for deferral, we will know more about the plan for this application.

Thanks again for your neighborhood involvement and please keep on communicating with the City.


Information provided by Heritage Hills Associate Board

Please contact Russell Claus, Planning Director at the City (Russell.Claus@okc.gov) and Janis Powers, Ward 2 Commissioner, (janispowers@sbcglobal.net) to express your concern as an individual living nearby the venue. USPS mail for both is 420 W. Main, 9th Floor, OKC, OK 73102.


The application is #18 on the Planning Commission Agenda (1:30 PM, December 12) and is described as follows:
(SPUD-734) Application by PBJ Entertainment Inc., to rezone 417, 419, 421 NW 23rd Street from the C-4 General Commercial, UD Urban Design Overlay, and TT Twenty-Third Street Uptown Corridor Overlay Districts to the SPUD-734 Simplified Planned Unit Development District. Ward 2.

Here are the problems:

1.The 200-seat music venue has proposed no dedicated parking and expects patrons to find parking in the lots of other businesses and on neighborhood streets.

2.Homes and other nearby business owners have purchased their own dedicated parking.

3.The positive development of NW 23rd Street is paramount in importance. For this to happen, business tenants must be assured of available parking for their customers. They will not survive if irresponsible parties come in with a plan to poach their parking places, rather than providing their own.

4.Let's look at a couple of examples. Both Big Truck Tacos and Tucker's have purchased parking for their customers but, even so, what happens at lunch? Their traffic spills over into the residential neighborhoods. Imagine a venue with 10 times the capacity and NO parking.

5.The overflow into the neighborhoods would happen between 7:00 PM and 2:00 AM. These will be concert goers who may be intoxicated, loud, disruptive, carrying trash and driving drunk or under other influence through the neighborhoods.

6.Residents near this venue are especially dependent on their street parking because many do not have garages or are limited to one-car garages because of their HP zoning restrictions.

DO NOT HESITATE, TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE! PLEASE ASK THE PLANNING COMMISSION TO SAY "NO" UNTIL DEDICATED PARKING IS SECURED.

It really stinks for Heritage Hill home owners that these issues keep coming up. It's as if their neighborhood ended up smack dab in the middle of a city. Is there any way to move the whole neighborhood to Edmond? ;)

It really stinks for Heritage Hill home owners that these issues keep coming up. It's as if their neighborhood ended up smack dab in the middle of a city. Is there any way to move the whole neighborhood to Edmond? ;)

The objection to the edge was dumb, but this has some merrit to this one. If I lived in that part of the neighboorhood and just paid $300k to $500k for a house, I would be annoyed if 3-4 days a week the streets were packed with cars on both sides and people were making a bunch of noise on the street at 2 in the morning. Obviously it wouldn't always be like that but it's really easy to act like it's no big deal when it won't affect you.

You have to remember, it almost is like someone built an urban area around heritage hills and the other stable historic districts. Residents in those neighboorhoods were the first to take part in the downtown renessance before maps was even a thought. Some of the protests have been ridiculous but again, I don't think this necessarily is.

For the record I want this to work but I think its dumb not to at least have some dedicated or at least borrowed parking for such a large venue.

I'm still confused as to why Marty Dillon won't simply lease the parking lot he owns to the folks doing the music venue.

I'm still confused as to why Marty Dillon won't simply lease the parking lot he owns to the folks doing the music venue.

It's like the cherry on top of his inexcusable reluctance to develop the tower theater.

Any chance they could fence HH and gate it?

Ok, let's assume the venue doesn't happen and these properties end up as multiple restaurants and/or bars. Now you have even more cars parking on your street during more hours of the day.

Any chance they could fence HH and gate it?

Again, it's really easy to act like its no big deal when it doesn't affect you.

I live in Heritage Hills.

The key is that the ones who are making a fuss are almost all 18th street and south. Mostly 14th streeters. The likelihood of them having their streets fill up with cars is just silly. Jefferson Park on the other hand...

I live in Heritage Hills.

Do you live on 21st or 22nd between Robinson and walker?

It's like the cherry on top of his inexcusable reluctance to develop the tower theater.

I heard through the grapevine that he is one of the people leading the complaints on this. Is that considered irony?

I heard through the grapevine that he is one of the people leading the complaints on this. Is that considered irony?

Sounds like he wants to have his cake and eat it too.

Nope. I also actually agree with you. I was funnin. This is more of a real problem, certainly, than The Edge.

Nope. I also actually agree with you. I was funnin. This is more of a real problem, certainly, than The Edge.

Haha it's hard to tell sometimes. I live on 17th so I'm pretty insulated from everything but I would be pretty concerned if I lived in that area. It's just annoying sometimes when people act like heritage hills/mesta park is such a hindrance to everything when the area is a lot of the reason that anything historic downtown was preserved and was a fairly important piece of bringing back the core. People have paid a lot for their homes here and continue to pay a lot for up keep, their concerns shouldn't just be ignored. Again it's easy to say when you aren't affected

But at any rate, glad we're on the same page.

I really don't think they should worry about parking. If people start parking where they shouldn't, just send the parking patrol out there and let the city make some cash. People will learn eventually. Maybe give some of the money the get from the issued citations to the neighborhood board(do they have that for HH?) and let them use the money on improvements for the area.

You can't have selective parking enforcement. If you ban on-street parking the homeowners will also lose their ability to park in front of their own houses. It's a legitimate concern.

You can't have selective parking enforcement. If you ban on-street parking the homeowners will also lose their ability to park in front of their own houses. It's a legitimate concern.Put out parking passes specifically for the homeowners. Anyone who doesn't have a pass, which will only be held by the homeowners, gets ticketed. If you forget to put your pass out or something, you just prove you live in the neighborhood and it is dropped. Give the homeowners a few of them actually for guests.

Like I said, you can't do that. It is strictly illegal. In OKC on-street parking is by definition public. You can restrict its use (to ALL users, by time frame or by limiting to commercial or passenger loading) but you can't make it private. And I know you can cite examples, such as Native Roots, but those signs are a bluff and have no actual teeth. Find the right bureaucrat and they'll have them removed.

Put out parking passes specifically for the homeowners. Anyone who doesn't have a pass, which will only be held by the homeowners, gets ticketed. If you forget to put your pass out or something, you just prove you live in the neighborhood and it is dropped. Give the homeowners a few of them actually for guests.

You can't have preferential passes on public streets, right? Homeowners could use their property to add personal angled spaces if they chose (maybe there are regulations that prevent this???), but the street is for anyone in the public, right?

Like I said, you can't do that. It is strictly illegal. In OKC on-street parking is by definition public. You can restrict its use (to ALL users, by time frame or by limiting to commercial or passenger loading) but you can't make it private. And I know you can cite examples, such as Native Roots, but those signs are a bluff and have no actual teeth. Find the right bureaucrat and they'll have them removed.I'm just trying to figure this thing here, is there no way they can declare the streets of HH private residential streets and only allow the homeowners and their guests to park there? I personally wouldn't mind having cars parked outside my house as long as I had a driveway.

You can't have preferential passes on public streets, right? Homeowners could use their property to add personal angled spaces if they chose (maybe there are regulations that prevent this???), but the street is for anyone in the public, right?Not really sure. Never realized there were laws against this.

I'm not suggesting they do this because I don't believe there is going to be a huge problem, but lots of cities require parking passes to park in certain neighborhoods.

Extremely common here in LA, particularly where residential neighborhoods abut big commercial strips -- which is almost everywhere.

http://jamescolincampbell.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/parkingsign.jpg


Frankly, I don't see the big deal of people parking on side streets. It's not like they will be parking in a driveway... Who cares if they are parking in the street?

The reason they have those permits in LA is to reserve the on-street parking for residents who don't have any other options. This would hardly be a problem anywhere in OKC.


I used to live in Manhattan Beach and my home was only a block from the main part of town, where there were about 40 bars and restaurants. So of course, people were parking down my street and coming and going at late hours. It wasn't a big deal and I actually loved having so many places so close.

Crown Heights definitely sees Western Ave bar parkers, and Gatewood sees tons from Plaza District. I really do believe mist of the would encourage up in Jeff Park. But I wouldn't really like it in front of my house either, to be honest with you. When I lived in Gatewood pre-Plaza greatness I was still always picking broken bottles out of my lawn, fixing ruts and broken sprinklers from when cars drove through. The two AM yelling and yard pissing/barfing likely driven by this place would probably be a bummer, too. I'm not sure there is a simple answer.

I'm just trying to figure this thing here, is there no way they can declare the streets of HH private residential streets and only allow the homeowners and their guests to park there? I personally wouldn't mind having cars parked outside my house as long as I had a driveway.

Not the way ordinances are currently written. Would require a change to the law such as the one Pete mentioned.

So of course, people were parking down my street and coming and going at late hours. It wasn't a big deal and I actually loved having so many places so close.That is kind of what I am thinking. Wouldn't it be exciting having all the life coming and going? I suppose they want the quite life, but being with the proximity of downtown, it is hard to have sympathy. There is Nichols Hills, Edmond, NW OKC etc. When you live that close the city and life, you ought to kind of expect fast ever changing city life and excitement that comes with it.

That is kind of what I am thinking. Wouldn't it be exciting having all the life coming and going? I suppose they want the quite life, but being with the proximity of downtown, it is hard to have sympathy. There is Nichols Hills, Edmond, NW OKC etc. When you live that close the city and life, you ought to kind of expect fast ever changing city life and excitement that comes with it.

It just hasn't been that way for them, ever. I agree, a more dynamic surrounding, IMO, makes for a better neighborhood. Also drives property values. Ask the people in Gatewood. But when many of the folks in HH bought, they were buying into decades-worth of quiet, elegant neighborhood that happened to be convenient to downtown. Change is difficult.

I would say the way to deal with this is through the Updtown/23rd Association and the homeowners.

The district could pitch in for extra security and try to be responsible to the homeowners. Most places here have signs that say "Be be respectful of our neighbors as you leave".

This situation exists times a thousand in every large city, it's just that a lot of these people living in historical neighborhoods in OKC have just never had to deal with it before.

But times are changing... The City is growing up and adding density. Better get used to more cars on your street no matter where you may live in the city core.

It just hasn't been that way for them, ever. I agree, a more dynamic surrounding, IMO, makes for a better neighborhood. Also drives property values. Ask the people in Gatewood. But when many of the folks in HH bought, they were buying into decades-worth of quiet, elegant neighborhood that happened to be convenient to downtown. Change is difficult.
I'm 23, so I would love to live in this neighborhood and have all the action right around me. However, I don't have 300k-500k to spend on a home and those who do have that money want a little quieter area to live in. There is definitely a balance to strike with nice neighborhoods and entertainment districts. Have there been any parking issues with the Friday night "Live on the Plaza" events?

Well, not sure if anyone in the neighborhood has rebelled. Hopefully they have seen the bigger picture and been tolerant of it. But yeah, on street parking is a bit of a mess radiating a couple of blocks out on busy Plaza nights, including right where my old house is. Maybe I should ask my ex-wife!

Pete is right; the city could create resident permit parking only for Heritage Hills and that would work. But here's the rub on that - what if a Heritage Hills resident has a holiday party? This would, in effect, make it very, very difficult for them to have more than a couple of visitors who can park in the driveway.

Pete is right; the city could create resident permit parking only for Heritage Hills and that would work. But here's the rub on that - what if a Heritage Hills resident has a holiday party? This would, in effect, make it very, very difficult for them to have more than a couple of visitors who can park in the driveway.Could they not implement some sort of system that would work as, if you're a resident of HH, you can call and request x amount of temporary parking permits for your guests? Surely there are other cities that have done that.

I'm still confused as to why Marty Dillon won't simply lease the parking lot he owns to the folks doing the music venue.

I'm simply confused what Marty Dillon is trying to accomplish. It's bizarre.

Do you live on 21st or 22nd between Robinson and walker?

nm.

Pete is right; the city could create resident permit parking only for Heritage Hills and that would work. But here's the rub on that - what if a Heritage Hills resident has a holiday party? This would, in effect, make it very, very difficult for them to have more than a couple of visitors who can park in the driveway.

As Pete mentioned, many cities have permitted on-street parking for residents, and 2-hour parking for non-residents. This would allow a two-hour birthday party, at least. Also would require more parking enforcement, but that would probably be revenue-neutral or even revenue-positive for the city due to the fines they'd bring in.

On a larger scale, make a district attractive enough while simultaneously making parking difficult enough and peopole gladly will pay to park. For evidence, see Bricktown on any night of the week. If 23rd turns into an attractive, parking-starved district you will see pay-to-park lots open up in every vacant lot up there (of which there are many).

I'm simply confused what Marty Dillon is trying to accomplish. It's bizarre.

It really doesn't make sense. From someone who doesn't have all the facts, it looks like he is trying to hinder development of 23rd. Why anyone would want to do that, I have no idea.

It really doesn't make sense. From someone who doesn't have all the facts, it looks like he is trying to hinder development of 23rd. Why anyone would want to do that, I have no idea.

I definitely don't think it's that nefarious - but I do wonder if ego has gotten in the way. He believes he can still make it happen. Or, maybe he WANTS to believe he can make it happen. If you owned that great property, wouldn't you want people to know that YOU revitalized it, not someone else, especially someone you had to bring in or sell to in order to make it happen?

Well, not sure if anyone in the neighborhood has rebelled. Hopefully they have seen the bigger picture and been tolerant of it. But yeah, on street parking is a bit of a mess radiating a couple of blocks out on busy Plaza nights, including right where my old house is. Maybe I should ask my ex-wife!

I live on Gatewood between 16th and 17th and I can attest that parking is problematic. When I first moved here (pre-Saint's, The Mule, Empire, etc.) it was only Live on the Plaza nights that were a problem. Now it is a pretty much Wednesday-though-Sunday issue. It difficult to keep folks from either blocking my driveway and even parking in it (!).

However, I wouldn't have it any other way. The neighborhood rocks and the parking woes are just a byproduct of a great district.

I live in Gatewood as well, not as close to the Plaza as Andrew, but we still have parking for Live on the Plaza in front of our house three blocks away. It doesn't bother me though, the Plaza District was a major factor in us choosing to live in Gatewood, and the parking/traffic issues are pretty minor compared to the benefits of living within walking distance to such a vibrant district.

A couple of points I'd like to make regarding this little dust up:

a) These buildings are all pretty old and apparently functioned just fine when occupied by businesses with parking customers, albeit with angled parking in front.

b) This venue (per the e-mail) will seat 200 souls. That's a maximum of 225 cars including staff. Given that the venue is located on the north side of 23rd Street, most will seek parking in the Paseo and Jeff Park area rather than Heritage Heritage Hills.

c) Paseo hosts First Friday monthly and the Paseo Arts Festival which draw many, many more folks than this establishment ever will and it works just fine. I know. I live at 28th and Walker.

d) This venue will operate in the late evening hours. Heritage Hills, Paseo and Jeff Park residents are not entitled to always available, unfettered parking on the street immediately in front of their home at any time of day. However, the demand resulting from this venue will probably not be realized until 8:00 or 9:00 in the evening when most locals will have already occupied their preferred spot, and the tourist's cars will be gone by morning when the locals emerge to go about their days.

e) The Dillon's handling of their properties on 23rd Street is just plain frustrating.

One of the issues is you are talking about two different groups of people. The majority of the people who own homes in Gatewood (especially closer to 16th street) paid $100-$200k for homes, are younger and moved there for the opportunity to be close to one of the coolest up and coming areas in OKC. I know five couples, all within the ages of 25-40 years old who moved to this area in the last three years.

A lot of the people who live in HH are "old money" and have homes that are $500-$1.5 million homes and have lived there for quite a long time. The majority of the nicer homes are much further south, closer to St Luke's, but that doesn't stop them from thinking hoodlums are going to be taking over their neighborhood.

Oh and my wife works in the Plaza District and easily the busiest time for them is during Live on the Plaza but I have been there the last three years to volunteer (in the morning and in the evening) and have never seen people get too rowdy. The venue could always hire a few off duty police officers to help once the shows are over to make sure people aren't making too much of a ruckus.

I live in Mesta Park and always wonder why HH is the only neighborhood who gets their opinion considered. I am sure it all comes down to money, but I think if the music venue consulted all the surrounding neighborhoods a different voice might be heard that supports their effort. Which would you rather have homeless sleeping in front of the businesses and lots of transients, or cars on the streets and a spark to revitalize 23rd?

I live in Mesta Park and always wonder why HH is the only neighborhood who gets their opinion considered. I am sure it all comes down to money, but I think if the music venue consulted all the surrounding neighborhoods a different voice might be heard that supports their effort. Which would you rather have homeless sleeping in front of the businesses and lots of transients, or cars on the streets and a spark to revitalize 23rd?

And, thinking about it, Mesta is technically the only neighborhood to the south directly affected. Mesta goes along 22nd street the entire way. HH stops at 21st. (Semantic, I know...)

What other properties along 23rd does Dillon own outside of the Tower Theatre?

The solution to this is to take 23rd down to two lanes through that corridor and have angled parking. Why is that so difficult to do?

The solution to this is to take 23rd down to two lanes through that corridor and have angled parking. Why is that so difficult to do?

Because this area is already a traffic bottleneck with 4 lanes and it's only going to get worse.

What other properties along 23rd does Dillon own outside of the Tower Theatre?

The empty lots across 23rd from The Tower.

Because this area is already a traffic bottleneck with 4 lanes and it's only going to get worse.

Right, and there isn't really an alternate route where thru-traffic can be redirected.

Because this area is already a traffic bottleneck with 4 lanes and it's only going to get worse.

But the bottleneck actually occurs at 23rd and I-235/Broadway/Robinson. Outside of that little mess traffic moves just fine.

^

It's always quite heavy -- so much so it's difficult to cross the street.

But the bottleneck actually occurs at 23rd and I-235/Broadway/Robinson. Outside of that little mess traffic moves just fine.

This. That disaster of the on/off ramps for 235 and all the associated stoplights are what really screw things up.

This. That disaster of the on/off ramps for 235 and all the associated stoplights are what really screw things up.

No. You've got to have those fly-over ramps, wider streets and stop lights for better movement 6 days a year ... nm. Wrong thread. Still foaming at the mouth.

No. You've got to have those fly-over ramps, wider streets and stop lights for better movement 6 days a year ... nm. Wrong thread. Still foaming at the mouth.i agree. Replace every intersection with tunnels and flyovers to remove stop lights and up the speed limit to 70mph to get to where you need go faster

As Pete mentioned, many cities have permitted on-street parking for residents, and 2-hour parking for non-residents. This would allow a two-hour birthday party, at least. Also would require more parking enforcement, but that would probably be revenue-neutral or even revenue-positive for the city due to the fines they'd bring in.
That is how some of the Capitol Hill area here in Denver is, my wife's property is right in the middle of it. They have a lane that is parking from something like 8:00 PM to 6:00 AM and the rest of the time it is a traffic lane. There was an article in the Denver Post a couple of weeks ago about the parking issues where larger condo/apartment developments are being built in place of the smaller complexes they are replacing and not just in Capitol Hill, it is also happening in all of the areas currently transforming into multi-use districts.