This questions seems to always be at the fore front of everyone's conversations on here. So what is everyone looking for in a city? What is Oklahoma missing out on?

For me it comes down to being able to walk (or take convenient mass transit) to 95% of what I want to do. Even here in Jax there are several walkable neighborhoods that offer a lot but they don't have the retail component at the level we would want and mass transit would still be by bus. I am starting to fear that what I am looking for might not exist in the US (at least not in a city I would want to live in).

You just want options. If it's a free market economy you should have options. That will naturally lead to the best-developed city with options for everyone.

It's nice to have options of where to shop, not just Wal-mart; options of where to live, not just suburbs; options of what to do in free time, not just first-ran movies; options of lifestyles, and so on.

OKC didn't have any options for so long. Now it does.

Less idiotic conservative morons like Mary Fallin, Mike Reynolds, etc. would be a nice start.

Oh wait, we're talking about OKC.

World class (or even second class) urban public transit system.

Better beautification.

More infill and urban connectedness.

More public art.

A real music venue (sorry, the Diamond Ballroom is a joke).

Less idiotic conservative morons like Mary Fallin, Mike Reynolds, etc. would be a nice start.

Oh wait, we're talking about OKC.

World class (or even second class) urban public transit system.

Better beautification.

More infill and urban connectedness.

More public art.

A real music venue (sorry, the Diamond Ballroom is a joke).

Agree with this. Also add better retail and modern grocery stores to the mix.

The success of a city depends alot on it's inhabitants. In order for OKC to become the city it wants to become, then first, it's residents must all be on the same page and want better for their city. I found OKC to be somewhat fragmented and so many of their residents just want the status que, nothing else. OKC is going to need lots of white collar jobs and young inhabitants to have a vibrant, growing city which is desireable and has momentum and sustanibility.

Oklahoma City is changing so rapidly right now that it seems like every month quality of life gets a little better. Perhaps we all are so close to what's happening that we lose a little perspective. We can't change the weather in July and August and we can't add a mountain range, but I think we're doing quite well with what we do have. In 5 years, no one will be comparing us unfavorably to Louisville, IMO. I think when we look back in 5 years we'll be shocked at the difference.

Yes, things have improved dramatically in just the last five years and the momentum is only building, so it's fun to think about the great changes to come in the next five.


These would all make a significant improvement in quality of life from my perspective:


Bring smoking & liquor laws in line with most the rest of the country
More bike lanes and trails
Expand the streetcar (assuming the first phase is built as planned)
Pressure irresponsible property owners in the core to renovate, develop or sell
Create a reasonable plan to limit the crazy sprawl; better focus of resources
Ask / expect more from city officials and employees and hold them accountable
An organized approach to harnessing the great passion so many feel for the community and turning that into action

Oklahoma City is changing so rapidly right now that it seems like every month quality of life gets a little better. Perhaps we all are so close to what's happening that we lose a little perspective. We can't change the weather in July and August and we can't add a mountain range, but I think we're doing quite well with what we do have. In 5 years, no one will be comparing us unfavorably to Louisville, IMO. I think when we look back in 5 years we'll be shocked at the difference.

Weather wise, I would say April and May are far more detrimental to the quality of life here than July and August.

As far as comparisons to Louisville, I will say OKC will pass them once the convention center and Central Park are built, the streetcar in place, critical mass in Midtown and revitalization of SoSA underway, and significant uptown gentrification including a revitalized Tower Theater becomes a reality.

Yes, things have improved dramatically in just the last five years and the momentum is only building, so it's fun to think about the great changes to come in the next five.


These would all make a significant improvement in quality of life from my perspective:


Bring smoking & liquor laws in line with most the rest of the country
More bike lanes and trails
Expand the streetcar (assuming the first phase is built as planned)
Pressure irresponsible property owners in the core to renovate, develop or sell
Create a reasonable plan to limit the crazy sprawl; better focus of resources
Ask / expect more from city officials and employees and hold them accountable
An organized approach to harnessing the great passion so many feel for the community and turning that into action


I believe this is the most doable and important.

I believe this is the most doable and important.

At the same time, I worry that pressuring inept property owners will only lead to poor quality, enough to get by development.

But everyone knows that junkie people don't like living around nice things, So it only takes a handful of prideful owners to start to make a difference. That should be the only type of pressure that is ever applied to another property owner.

Oklahoma City is changing so rapidly right now that it seems like every month quality of life gets a little better. Perhaps we all are so close to what's happening that we lose a little perspective. We can't change the weather in July and August and we can't add a mountain range, but I think we're doing quite well with what we do have. In 5 years, no one will be comparing us unfavorably to Louisville, IMO. I think when we look back in 5 years we'll be shocked at the difference.

I attended an event here in Jax on Monday night that was to discuss ways to re-urbanize downtown Jacksonville. I was surprised that over 100 people showed up. Each person who wanted to was given 2 minutes to present their ideas and nearly every single one of them was exactly the same thing as what OKC has done over the past 10 years - from turning downtown streets to two-way to putting a zip line over the river. I know people here on OKCTalk see the huge build up of urban momentum but I don't think the average OKC resident has any ideas what the near future is going to hold - and they are going to be blown away by it.

Costco will drastically improve our quality of life.

Less idiotic conservative morons like Mary Fallin, Mike Reynolds, etc. would be a nice start.

Oh wait, we're talking about OKC.

World class (or even second class) urban public transit system.

Better beautification.

More infill and urban connectedness.

More public art.

A real music venue (sorry, the Diamond Ballroom is a joke).

More tolerance of diverse opinions would be an even better start.

At the same time, I worry that pressuring inept property owners will only lead to poor quality, enough to get by development.

Isn't that where design review would come in? Let's set standards for what we expect and hold property owners to those standards. Give them a reasonable amount of time to get the funding for and construct a quality development. If they are not willing to do that, they need to pay a higher amount of tax or sell the property to someone who is willing to do something with it.

Costco will drastically improve our quality of life.

It all comes down to choices. Cities with high quality of life - Minneapolis for instance, don't necessarily have the best weather or the best scenery, but what they do have is options. Where to shop, where to live, where to eat, where to drink, where to play, what to believe, cultural diversity, musical diversity, etc. Of course diversity of lifestyle choices isn't the only factor that contributes to quality of life but it is a major one.

Of course there is a limit to the depth of choices a city of 1.3 million population can offer, but in OKCs case I say it is still a ways off from reaching that limit.

More tolerance of diverse opinions would be an even better start.

Yeah, not for their "opinions".

Can't believe no one has said better public schools. As a recent transplant to OKC I can say it really sucks having to choose between the suburbs and the two neighborhoods in the urban core that feed to quality elementary schools.

Can't believe no one has said better public schools. As a recent transplant to OKC I can say it really sucks having to choose between the suburbs and the two neighborhoods in the urban core that feed to quality elementary schools.

That's because there was just a massive tax-payer investment made through MAPS for Kids ($700 million) and it seems to have had little effect.

And as long as people have the means to live where they want -- which describes most Americans -- school quality will always be tied directly to the sociodemograpics of the neighborhoods that feed them (with the exception of a few magnet schools).

This is true everywhere in this country, but particularly in the cities where there is unbridled sprawl and an abundance of newer, reasonably affordable housing. Families merely move to schools that are already good instead of trying to improve those that need help.

I would like for someone to define "better public schools" for me. Everyone raves that suburban schools are best but hells bells - 95% of OKC is suburban sprawl. If the link between suburbia and good schools was true OKC should have the best public schools in the history of the world.

API scores are most generally used when comparing schools; it's the closest thing to an objective measure.

Deer Creek Schools average close to 1,400
Edmond 1,300
Putnam City 1,100
Oklahoma City generally below 1,000

http://ok.gov/sde/sites/ok.gov.sde/files/API2011.pdf

Glad I live in Deer Creek. But this is somewhat deceiving. You can still get a good education in OKC Public Schools. The reason their schools rate lower is because there are a lot of students from broken homes that weigh down the averages. It's not that the schools or even teachers are bad, it's that the homes are broken and families are in disarray. No parental support.

I would like for someone to define "better public schools" for me. Everyone raves that suburban schools are best but hells bells - 95% of OKC is suburban sprawl. If the link between suburbia and good schools was true OKC should have the best public schools in the history of the world.

Most of OKC's middle class sprawl is in areas that may be OKC city limits but another school district, be it Moore, Edmond, Putnam City, etc. OKC school district itself is mostly either low-income or very high-income.

As a comparison...

Mustang average - 1234
Yukon average - 1229

Any comparison with schools should be with the caveat that schools in this state overall are nothing special. No offense to the thousands of hardworking teachers, parents, and school administrators, but it is what it is. If you believe CNBC "Best States for Business" list, we rank 48th in the nation, which is actually a spot lower than the perpetual badness of Mississippi.

Most of that state-to-state comparison is based on per-pupil spending (teacher salaries being a huge part) without any consideration for cost of living; OKC & Tulsa are always at or near the top of any affordability ratings.

I can assure you that the public schools in Oklahoma are infinitely better than those here in California. It's not even close.


And being a product of the OK public schools, I can tell you my education has held up very well as I've worked along side some very sharp, highly-educated people from all over the country.

Finished top of my class at Pepperdine and I was not even in the top 20% of my high school class.

So what I am seeing in all of these numbers is that if you take good students and put them in any school district they will still do good. Add enough of them and the whole school district will improve. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy so chasing the good school district is nothing more than a dog chasing its own tail - except we keep spending a fortune building new schools and abandoning existing schools in the process. In short, the good schools district is where the good students are - we just need to get them to stop moving.

Do county based school districts (like the rest of the country) and who knows what the OKC public schools system would look like - but I bet it would go up in a lot of rankings.

Glad I live in Deer Creek. But this is somewhat deceiving. You can still get a good education in OKC Public Schools. The reason their schools rate lower is because there are a lot of students from broken homes that weigh down the averages. It's not that the schools or even teachers are bad, it's that the homes are broken and families are in disarray. No parental support.

If you are committed to making sure your children get a quality education, that can easily be accomplished in the OKC Public Schools.

First of all, it's easy to make a difference in any elementary school. Volunteer, help the teacher, stay on top of what you child is learning/doing. Even so, in the nicer neighborhoods like Belle Isle, Nichols Hills, Gatewood and Mesta Park, the API's for those elementary schools are comparable to those in Edmond.

Then, there are excellent magnet middle and high schools; Classen is often ranked as the very best public HS in the state.

So what I am seeing in all of these numbers is that if you take good students and put them in any school district they will still do good. Add enough of them and the whole school district will improve. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy so chasing the good school district is nothing more than a dog chasing its own tale - except we keep spending a fortune building new schools and abandoning existing schools in the process. In short, the good schools district is where the good students are - we just need to get them to stop moving.

Yes, but the reality is that few parents with real choice will put their kids in schools in the hope the ratings will rise. So, they just move to a 'good' district.

Also, there is the strong propensity in sprawl cities just to keep moving further out into the newly-developed areas. I've mentioned this many times but I keep the database for my class, Putnam City Class of '78, and among those still in the area, almost all put their kids through Edmond schools.


So, you have two forces: 1) families naturally gravitating to the new; and 2) once the older schools start to slip a bit, that only accelerates the exodus.


It's absolutely shocking what has happened to the Putnam City school district (both schools and neighborhoods) in just one generation. Went from being the indisputable best in state to mediocre and dropping fast.

I wonder how many people with children in metro OKC went to the same school their children are going to right now. Answer, not many. When I was in high school in California a lot of my friends were second and third generation to go to the same high school. And now the 4th generation is going there.

I wonder how many people with children in metro OKC went to the same school their children are going to right now. Answer, not many.

Very, very few.

My PC class was almost 1,000 and I'd say less than 10 had kids go to the same high school.


And remember, this isn't like those that went to Northwest Classen back in the 60's and early 70's when it was great. That all changed due to forced busing, which drove the growth the PC school district in the first place.

With the PC schools, there were really no other forces other than the building of Memorial Road into a quasi freeway and the resulting building boom out in cow pastures.

People just moved out there because they would get a shiny new home; the PC schools were still excellent at the time.

Northwest Classen was excellent. It's too bad it isn't what it once was.

^

True, but Classen is even better now.

Glad I live in Deer Creek. But this is somewhat deceiving. You can still get a good education in OKC Public Schools. The reason their schools rate lower is because there are a lot of students from broken homes that weigh down the averages. It's not that the schools or even teachers are bad, it's that the homes are broken and families are in disarray. No parental support.

I agree with this sentiment. A lot of my friends raise their families in Edmond and other suburbs and if anyone of them had an interest in raising the scores of Oklahoma City Public Schools they'd mix it up. Someone's gonna have to be the pioneers. It has to eventually happen. Not everyone that moves into OKC is going to be able to afford new construction and/or may not want to drive from the suburbs to go to work AND some of those families, hopefully most, will be invested in their children's futures.

I wonder how many people with children in metro OKC went to the same school their children are going to right now. Answer, not many. When I was in high school in California a lot of my friends were second and third generation to go to the same high school. And now the 4th generation is going there.
Although this is true about many of the public schools in OKC, private schools in OKC have a tremendous amount of loyalty built up with their graduates. I know of people moving back to OKC to send their kids to these schools, and know of many second and third generation grads from these schools. I understand you all are talking public school districts, just bringing up a point.

There are now people who are moving back into the city and are seeking to make OKCPS better by becoming involved.

^

Yes, Gatewood is one of those schools for sure.

Personally, I believe very strongly in getting involved in the public schools but also understand why parents would not want to sacrifice their child's education in the process.


This really has more to do with putting some controls into place that limits where new homes can be built (or gas goes to $50 a gallon), otherwise this cycle will just keep repeating.

The public schools in OKC could use help but they really aren't much worse than most other sunbelt cities. Metro areas like this one, prone to sprawl, simply have bad public schools, and that is not going to change until the middle class returns to the urban core.

Moore 1286

The public schools in OKC could use help but they really aren't much worse than most other sunbelt cities. Metro areas like this one, prone to sprawl, simply have bad public schools, and that is not going to change until the middle class returns to the urban core.

US Grant just earned a B+ while OKCPS had so many F schools. No excuses. Terrible teachers and administrators = F.

OKCPS needs new teachers and administrators.

My wife and I live in Mustang. My wonderful Grandsons, and their parents, live in Yukon. Parenting, and Grandparenting is important to the future of any child. I am right beside my DIL in anything concerning school and my g-boys. Quality of life is whatever makes you happy. I like a bit of space and quiet. When I was younger I would have enjoyed the urban experience. Which can be a little like living on a large military base. Dang near everything you need is within walking or a short bus ride distance.

I'm of the opinion that public schools in every large city are much lower rated than their counterparts in the suburbs or the private schools located in the city. I'm from the KC area, and the public schools there leave MUCH to be desired. Everybody I met at KU was from Olathe, Overland Park (Blue Valley), Shawnee, etc. Not many kids at KU from the KC public school system.

Like others have said, when you have a lot of kids who come from troubled homes who have been raised to not care that much about school its going to have a big effect on the success and the reputation of the schools they attend. With kids like that you can't just have good teachers, you have to have GREAT teachers who truly want to change a kid's life. Teachers like that are harder and harder to come by these days.

Less idiotic conservative morons like Mary Fallin, Mike Reynolds, etc. would be a nice start.



LOL, Dream on. Really, plenty of Oklahomans very, very much love and adore her. She will win reelection by 60 to 70% of the vote.

US Grant just earned a B+ while OKCPS had so many F schools. No excuses. Terrible teachers and administrators = F.

OKCPS needs new teachers and administrators.

Mostly administrators.

I'm of the opinion that public schools in every large city are much lower rated than their counterparts in the suburbs or the private schools located in the city. I'm from the KC area, and the public schools there leave MUCH to be desired. Everybody I met at KU was from Olathe, Overland Park (Blue Valley), Shawnee, etc. Not many kids at KU from the KC public school system.

Like others have said, when you have a lot of kids who come from troubled homes who have been raised to not care that much about school its going to have a big effect on the success and the reputation of the schools they attend. With kids like that you can't just have good teachers, you have to have GREAT teachers who truly want to change a kid's life. Teachers like that are harder and harder to come by these days.

Especially when their pay is the suck.

LOL, Dream on. Really, plenty of Oklahomans very, very much love and adore her. She will win reelection by 60 to 70% of the vote.

Thats sad, She's a sorry excuse for a governor.

Forget public schools and where they are. With what they are being forced to teach now, I don't think I'll send my kid to any public school, whether it be Deer Creek or OKCPS.

That's coming from someone who attended public K through 12 and NEVER thought he'd entertain paying property taxes AND private school tuition.

LOL, Dream on. Really, plenty of Oklahomans very, very much love and adore her. She will win reelection by 60 to 70% of the vote.

Agreed. Fallin is beloved and she is very good at energizing one issue voters.

^

Yes, Gatewood is one of those schools for sure.



I have heard the opposite. The school is surrounded by nice homes, but the kids that live nearby do not attend. The same is true of Linwood Elementary. Both of those schools were issued a "D" on their state report card. I know it's not the best measure, but it's a starting place.

Wilson Elementary was the only OKCPS elementary to earn an A (they got an A-), the next highest elementary was Cleveland with a B+.