I gotta say, Lift is my favorite of the new apartment complexes around downtown. Not as big/fancy as Metropolitain, but it's location is nicer and it's a bit more visually appealing.

I gotta say, Lift is my favorite of the new apartment complexes around downtown. Not as big/fancy as Metropolitain, but it's location is nicer and it's a bit more visually appealing.

Plus it's got a retail space!

It's too bad Milhaus isn't looking to do anything more in OKC. I've been really impressed by LIFT.

They still have plenty of work to do.

Last time I went by the pool wasn't done and lots of the apartments are yet to be finished.

Hope they find someone to take the ground-level space, hopefully a restaurant that will make good use of the patio facing the roundabout.

It's too bad Milhaus isn't looking to do anything more in OKC. I've been really impressed by LIFT.

Heard they weren't the most fun general contractor to work for.

Heard they weren't the most fun general contractor to work for.

Interesting. I remember Steve saying in a chat they were looking for other sites awhile back, but he had recently said they were likely done in OKC.

If I remember correctly, their original plan was to open up one section of the building to start and then other sectors subsequently. Then they were given a no-go from the fire marshall. Then they proposed L2 and wanted to create some access to a pre-existing garage and that has created an issue with that development (potentially killing it)...you get the sense that they might be getting frustrated with the city, and as mentioned, they can't make their money back quick enough to justify the projects.

If I remember correctly, their original plan was to open up one section of the building to start and then other sectors subsequently. Then they were given a no-go from the fire marshall. Then they proposed L2 and wanted to create some access to a pre-existing garage and that has created an issue with that development (potentially killing it)...you get the sense that they might be getting frustrated with the city, and as mentioned, they can't make their money back quick enough to justify the projects.

Out of state developers have told me that dealing with the city is a nightmare.

If I remember correctly, their original plan was to open up one section of the building to start and then other sectors subsequently. Then they were given a no-go from the fire marshall. Then they proposed L2 and wanted to create some access to a pre-existing garage and that has created an issue with that development (potentially killing it)...you get the sense that they might be getting frustrated with the city, and as mentioned, they can't make their money back quick enough to justify the projects.

I had completely forgotten about L2.

Out of state developers have told me that dealing with the city is a nightmare.

In staters are having the same problems. OKC is doing a great job of delaying projects or pushing them to the suburbs with typical bureaucratic bs and excessive hoop jumping.

Out of state developers have told me that dealing with the city is a nightmare.

Have they said what specifically they are having problems with that makes them a nightmare? And what departments? That is a really general statement and lots a reasons they can run into resistance or have issues.

FWIW, I'm quite sure that Milhaus not doing more OKC projects had very little to do with dealing with the city.

I don't think it was a factor at all.

In staters are having the same problems. OKC is doing a great job of delaying projects or pushing them to the suburbs with typical bureaucratic bs and excessive hoop jumping.

Can you give some examples?

FWIW, I'm quite sure that Milhaus not doing more OKC projects had very little to do with dealing with the city.

I don't think it was a factor at all.

Good to hear. Sorry to see them go. Despite the incredibly lengthy construction delay, the Lift is probably the most attractive of the recently built apartment complexes downtown.

I think I can say all this without betraying any trust and I think it's important to share...


As out-of-state developers, Milhaus looks at return on investment much more than many local companies.

They look very hard at the numbers -- was told they expect a full return in 7 years -- and make decisions accordingly.

That doesn't mean they are heartless and don't care about OKC, it's just a very different view than most the locals.

Local developers generally look at many factors, including a love for a building, neighborhood or the city in general. Out of state types generally care much less about these things; emotion rarely plays a part.

Many, many developments -- including brand new construction -- would not have happened if this standard had been applied. If it was, probably zero of the Midtown Renaissance and Pivot Project deals (along with lots of others) would ever have come to pass.


I know Milhaus looked very hard at several different projects and passed on them all. They had brought in a pretty high-powered member of their team to grow their presence in OKC but he has now moved on.


And as far as I know, none of this had anything to do with difficulties with the City.


Just wanted to clarify this issue a bit.

I think I can say all this without betraying any trust and I think it's important to share...


As out-of-state developers, Milhaus looks at return on investment much more than many local companies.

They look very hard at the numbers -- was told they expect a full return in 7 years -- and make decisions accordingly.

That doesn't mean they are heartless and don't care about OKC, it's just a very different view than most the locals.

Local developers generally look at many factors, including a love for a building, neighborhood or the city in general. Out of state types generally care much less about these things; emotion rarely plays a part.

Many, many developments -- including brand new construction -- would not have happened if this standard had been applied. If it was, probably zero of the Midtown Renaissance and Pivot Project deals (along with lots of others) would ever have come to pass.


I know Milhaus looked very hard at several different projects and passed on them all. They had brought in a pretty high-powered member of their team to grow their presence in OKC but he has now moved on.


And as far as I know, none of this had anything to do with difficulties with the City.


Just wanted to clarify this issue a bit.

Pete, did they pass on the projects because they wouldn't see the ROI within 7 years? Why did the high powered member of their team move on?

Pete, did they pass on the projects because they wouldn't see the ROI within 7 years? Why did the high powered member of their team move on?

Yes, because they couldn't find deals that fit their parameters.

And I assume the local guy was moved because of that. No sense having him here if there were no deals to be made, and they tried over the course of a couple of years.

Yes, because they couldn't find deals that fit their parameters.

And I assume the local guy was moved because of that. No sense having him here if there were no deals to be made, and they tried over the course of a couple of years.

Is that a negative reflection of the condition of our downtown rental market right now, were their land acquisition costs just not what they needed to be, or is something else going on? Do local developers look for a longer term ROIs that allow the numbers on these large scale apartment projects to work for them? From a layman's standpoint, your info above sounds somewhat concerning for our rental market in the CBD.

Is that a negative reflection of the condition of our downtown rental market right now, were their land acquisition costs just not what they needed to be, or is something else going on? Do local developers look for a longer term ROIs that allow the numbers on these large scale apartment projects to work for them? From a layman's standpoint, your info above sounds somewhat concerning for our rental market in the CBD.

It could just as easily be due to strong competition from other developers that has driven up land and acquisition costs.

Keep in mind, they started looking some time ago and long before we had this big recent round of units come on line. It's hard to get a real read on how those new units have affected the market rental rates because no one is going to say they are disappointed in their occupancy or that they are having to reduce rents. However, it's my impression that the rental market is still quite firm, just based on what I've seen/heard from people who are objective.

And yes, most local developers do not expect to make their money back in 7 years. Very, very hard to do.

I assume the 7-year figure has to do with receiving after-tax profits of actual cash invested? Seems pretty impossible that these facilities would produce the millions of dollars it takes to build them in such a short amount of time?

It could just as easily be due to strong competition from other developers that has driven up land and acquisition costs.

Keep in mind, they started looking some time ago and long before we had this big recent round of units come on line. It's hard to get a real read on how those new units have affected the market rental rates because no one is going to say they are disappointed in their occupancy or that they are having to reduce rents. However, it's my impression that the rental market is still quite firm, just based on what I've seen/heard from people who are objective.

And yes, most local developers do not expect to make their money back in 7 years. Very, very hard to do.

I went in to resign my lease with MidtownR last week, and she showed me a map of all the proposed or under construction units to come online in the next year or two, and it was truly amazing. There wasn't anything new to this site, but I am really interested to see how quickly these new units will be absorbed. On the flipside, it will be interesting to see how some of these older units will react. I know Deep Deuce has dropped rates, but I could see more rates being cut.

She also said there is no plan for MidtownR to offer for sale units at this time.

Oh man, it would have been cool if you could have snapped a pic!

I agree, 7 years ROI on any investment is pretty tough to do.

Here is the best indication IMO that the rental market is still plenty healthy: Almost every developer will speak publicly or semi-publicly about the fear of over-building, yet virtually all of them have plenty of their own deals in the works.

If anything, the better (not necessarily newer) properties will always do well and those who weren't as well designed, maintained/managed, and priced appropriately will suffer, while blaming market conditions.

I've mentioned this here before, but Urban Renewal did a market absorption study that showed something like 7K units could be absorbed immediately...and the study in question was done in 2000. LONG before the current amenities, night life and dining were in place and well before a strong urban lifestyle preference appeared among a significant portion of the population. Based on this, I would guess the number today is probably well beyond 10K units. And by well beyond, I wouldn't be surprised if it were double that. I think we have only just now scratched the surface when it comes to covering urban residential demand in OKC.

Will product have to evolve over time? Of course. Will there be properties that miss the market or fail to keep up with competitors as far as their combination of finish, amenities, and price, and thereby struggle to stay leased? Absolutely; just like they currently do in the suburbs. But I wouldn't recommend wasting too much energy worrying about market saturation.

Yes, because they couldn't find deals that fit their parameters.

And I assume the local guy was moved because of that. No sense having him here if there were no deals to be made, and they tried over the course of a couple of years.

A year ago I was told, possibly by the same guy, that Milhaus had raised $100million for investment in OKC. Obviously things in our market affected that plan.

I was also told that leases are slow at lift but at least the rates are staying where they want them. This goes for other downtown rentals as well, rates arent really dropping, just slower filling or re-filling empty apartments.

^

LIFT is still a long way from being complete.

Last time I was by there, their pool was not even open.

Can you give some examples?

Obviously the newsworthy things about push back and "opinions' of design review committees, as well as getting unnecessary blowback from other committees like the traffic commission. Theres also overreaching requests for engineering, flood/traffic/environmental studies (for really simple things), making you used pre-approved contractors for routine things. Beginning in 2017 theres also increased permitting fees. While they wont be as high as first proposed, they still could impact some projects and maybe move some outside of city limits.

^

LIFT is still a long way from being complete.

Last time I was by there, their pool was not even open.

Yes, but they do have some apartments finished with residents in them. But they have been slow to fill them, I was told.

Yes, but they do have some apartments finished with residents in them. But they have been slow to fill them, I was told.

Right, BUT: 1) they are way, way past the delivery date they had promised many people; and 2) who wants to rent an apartment in an Oklahoma summer when the pool isn't finished?

I'm just saying you would not expect their occupancy to be that great right now, especially when you can move right into the Metropolitan and other newish complexes.

^ Yes, Lift got screwed by the construction delays. While they were hung up, Metropolitan and Mosaic finished up and had easy sniping on those would-be residents.

^ Yes, Lift got screwed by the construction delays. While they were hung up, Metropolitan and Mosaic finished up and had easy sniping on those would-be residents.

Are those two apartments filled up?

Are those two apartments filled up?

Nope. Metropolitan even still has sections of the property under minor construction. They have over 50 unleased units that are currently ready for move-in.

Nope. Metropolitan even still has sections of the property under minor construction. They have over 50 unleased units that are currently ready for move-in.

Yeah, I don't think any of the north building is occupied yet, but the construction looks like it's getting close to being done. The south building is complete, but also has a lot of unleased units. Not sure how many are still open but there have been lots of move-ins in the last month.

Mosaic is fully leased.

I've mentioned this here before, but Urban Renewal did a market absorption study that showed something like 7K units could be absorbed immediately...and the study in question was done in 2000. LONG before the current amenities, night life and dining were in place and well before a strong urban lifestyle preference appeared among a significant portion of the population. Based on this, I would guess the number today is probably well beyond 10K units. And by well beyond, I wouldn't be surprised if it were double that. I think we have only just now scratched the surface when it comes to covering urban residential demand in OKC.

Will product have to evolve over time? Of course. Will there be properties that miss the market or fail to keep up with competitors as far as their combination of finish, amenities, and price, and thereby struggle to stay leased? Absolutely; just like they currently do in the suburbs. But I wouldn't recommend wasting too much energy worrying about market saturation.

Great points.

I have to say, I was in Tulsa for business this week and I was blown away how much Blue Dome, East Village and the Brady District have improved. I also was a little jealous. Very impressive all the way around, and it looks like they are starting to move ahead of OKC. I'm not too proud to admit I was jealous by the density, eclecticism and urbanity of Downtown Tulsa.

I have been living in Downtown OKC for the last month and I love it, but it doesn't have near the amenities it should given how long our city leaders have been working on "developing retail" and other efforts that just never seem to materialize.

ON EDIT: OKC had a clear head start on Tulsa, but Tulsa has caught up and arguably is taking the lead. The fact we all marvel at how much better OKC is than it used to be proves just how bad OKC used to be. Ouch.

I have to disagree.

I was recently in Tulsa visiting some friends. We spent time downtown, Blue Dome, etc.

I think there are two things OKC has going for it that keep OKC ahead of Tulsa-Bricktown/canal and the River.

Tulsa seems to have quite the bar/restaurant scene. They have a few nice housing options. They do not have entertainment, other than BOK for concerts and ONEOK for baseball. OKC has the same, The Peake and Bricktown Ballpark. They have Canes we have Criterion-similar on the concert/entertainment scene.

I think you will really notice the differences in late 2017/early 2018 when the west end of Film Row materializes, Steelyard opens, the Hotels are finished, wheeler opens its first section of homes, and not to mention the rail is complete.

By any objective measure Tulsa doesn't have nearly the projects completed or in the pipeline when compared to OKC.

They have done some great things with many more to come but the numbers don't lie.

By any objective measure Tulsa doesn't have nearly the projects completed or in the pipeline when compared to OKC.

They have done some great things with many more to come but the numbers don't lie.

I don't really care about the sheer number of projects. OKC is a bigger city with a bigger population, but Tulsa has created active, vibrant density, with a ton of eclecticism, in a very short period of time. Frankly, their new housing projects, in completion or nearing so, are more attractive with higher design standards, as are their Brady District hotel projects. They also have a lot more street-level retail, and now they will not only have the Woody Guthrie museum but the Bob Dylan archives, plus a new downtown branch of Philbrook, an entirely new contemporary art museum downtown, and more. That is a lot of cool packed in a very small, walkable, delightfully dense area.

I'm sure Houston has more happening than Austin in terms of sheer numbers of projects, but Austin is nicer.

Don't get me wrong, I like OKC and don't want to move to Tulsa, but it's OK to acknowledge what they are doing better. And they still have us beat when it comes to live music by a huge degree. I would have hoped we would start seeing some competition from OKC for the great Indie shows that go through Tulsa, but so far that hasn't happened.

^

It always looks like more and more impressive when it is new to you.

I could offer the OKC comparison on every point you raise but the simple truth is that people who live here tend to take everything we've done and that is in progress for granted.

A good friend of mine and his wife from Tulsa were down a couple of weeks ago and raved about how OKC is much farther ahead.

^

It always looks like more and more impressive when it is new to you.

I could offer the OKC comparison on every point you raise but the simple truth is that people who live here tend to take everything we've done and that is in progress for granted.

A good friend of mine and his wife from Tulsa were down a couple of weeks ago and raved about how OKC is much farther ahead.

I don't think I take anything here for granted, as I patronize and enjoy almost everything new that happens here, and celebrate it on this website.

I'm not really interested in you taking apart my post word for word but Tulsa is stitching together several amazing mixed use neighborhoods and creating destination cultural resources. That is true and undeniable.

Agree Tulsa has some great things going on but strongly disagree your "they are starting to move ahead of OKC" judgement.

I get what Pete is saying. When I go back to Tulsa I'm amazed at the progress... When I'm with Tulsa friends in OKC they're absolutely blown away by OKC's growth in its core.

I think OKC's urban growth the last 15 years is more impressive. Tulsa definitely started with a better urban fabric and districts, but OKC is catching up, and in some cases, passing Tulsa by IMHO. I hope the cores of both cities keep growing. I love them both.

Agree Tulsa has some great things going on but strongly disagree your "they are starting to move ahead of OKC" judgement.

You may be right, but perception is key. We are doing a lot with different neighborhoods, but they are very spread apart. It's hard to create the critical mass you see happening in Tulsa's Brady and East End in OKC because the districts are so far apart, and not terribly walkable. One might argue the quality of restaurants emerging in those districts in Tulsa is superior to that in, say, Bricktown, and it would be hard to argue against that.

Tulsa has done really well with it's districts and it's good to see all the development downtown.

In my opinion, Tulsa might have a more dense cluster of districts (Brady/Blue Dome/East End) that are closer together. However, take a stroll to the southern part of Tulsa's downtown and you'll encounter and ocean of parking lots and empty buildings, especially by TCC. Not that OKC doesn't have its surface parking lots, but parts of Downtown Tulsa are just depressing with how empty it is.

OKC has done (and currently is doing) a really good job with its developments, given how freaking large and expansive the land area is. I mean, look at the eastern section of Bricktown and how dense it is compared to just a year ago!

I'm just glad both Tulsa and OKC's downtown's are doing well considering the price of oil. If downtown's thrive then cities thrive. And if Oklahoma's two biggest cities thrive, it'll only help the state thrive.

...I'm just glad both Tulsa and OKC's downtown's are doing well considering the price of oil. If downtown's thrive then cities thrive. And if Oklahoma's two biggest cities thrive, it'll only help the state thrive.

Please tell that to the rural votes at 23rd and Lincoln.

You may be right, but perception is key. We are doing a lot with different neighborhoods, but they are very spread apart. It's hard to create the critical mass you see happening in Tulsa's Brady and East End in OKC because the districts are so far apart, and not terribly walkable. One might argue the quality of restaurants emerging in those districts in Tulsa is superior to that in, say, Bricktown, and it would be hard to argue against that.

Tons of great restaurants in OKC's urban districts, including Bricktown.

Brady and East End may be close together but so are Bricktown and Deep Deuce and the CBD and they are larger with tons more to offer by several orders of magnitude. And all are extremely walkable.

Then you have Midtown, the Plaza, Film Row, Uptown, Paseo, etc. etc. Not close to one another but neither are the rest of Tulsa's districts.

Good points, all. Hard to disagree. Overall, though, I draw a blank when someone asks: "What's a really good restaurant in Bricktown that's not super expensive." Since that pretty much rules out Mickey Mantle's and the Mantel, I'm often drawing a blank. Crabtown? The Brewery? West?

Honestly, in my opinion the best restaurant in Bricktown that is not too expensive and consistently good is In the Raw. Looking forward to see how their next concept is executed. But I see we have drifted quite a ways away from the Lift.

In the Raw, West, Henry Hudson's (very underrated), All About Cha and Room 222 is pretty darn good.

I also absolutely love the setting at Bourbon Street and their menu is reasonable and food is decent.

There are a bunch of new places in the works as well.

IMO Yucatan is under-rated and never as busy as it should be

In the Raw, West, Henry Hudson's (very underrated), All About Cha and Room 222 is pretty darn good.

I also absolutely love the setting at Bourbon Street and their menu is reasonable and food is decent.

There are a bunch of new places in the works as well.

I've never been to Room 222. Didn't realize it was a restaurant.

Bourbon Street is OK to good.

West is OK to good.

Hudson's offers a decent burger.

None of these places is great, although I would argue In the Raw is very good.

The options in Bricktown are not at the top of their game simply because for so long they never needed to be. The competition for clientele was literally nothing. With the incredible slew of great restaurants that have come online in the last 5 years, and nearly none of them landing in Bricktown, I think we will find that Bricktown will up its game to compete in the coming 5 years. Places like the Melting Pot used to be OKC can't miss, and now I haven't heard anybody mention that place for years.

When I was in Tulsa last August, I was jealous of 1 thing: The historical buildings and Cathedrals. Cherry St, Brookside, are both really nice and have some really great things going for them. Brady has a great feel to it, but it's easier to pull off in a smaller area. How quickly the Plaza has become awash in traffic shows how advantageous being small can be. Things come together really quickly.

Looking at the respective downtowns, OKC's is far bigger and OKC is tackling much more of it right now than is Tulsa theirs. Tulsa is also playing catchup to Bricktown with Blue Dome/Brady and have had the benefit of seeing mistakes that Bricktown made in developing a great urban destination. It's easy to take being the guinea pig for granted, but when you look at lower Bricktown you can see the trepidation to commit to urban design even though the other side of Reno is filled with it. Tulsa got to watch how that has played out and left something to be desired in that area.

To me that hands down difference between the two places that OKC has Tulsa beat in is the completeness of Bricktown combined with directly adjacent, dense residential development. There is nothing nearly as dense as Deep Deuce currently completed in Tulsa and that's going to pay dividends that are only somewhat visible right now in OKC. Unless I completely missed it, the difference in available living units in the respective downtowns is astonishing. And people are what make the world go round, so until Tulsa passes us on that, it's hard to say they're pulling away.

Bricktown has The Mantle, Mickey Mantles and KD's / Legacy Grill. All very nice and plenty of choices that aren't on the "too expensive" side. Those got tossed out at the beginning of this discussion but I don't think that is fair.

And there are several new, nicer places on the way.

There is simply nothing close to comparison when you look at the CBD / Deep Deuce / Bricktown trifecta.

Very dense, with tons of hotels, restaurants, bars, entertainment, parks, housing, and retail. All pretty well connected and easily walkable and soon to get the streetcar which will help link much better to Auto Alley and Midtown. As the areas between these other districts continue to fill in (which the streetcar will also accelerate) you are talking about a cohesive urban area that will dwarf anything in Tulsa for a long time to come.

Bricktown has exactly the type of restaurants it should for most of the people who visit. Abuelo's, Zio's, Bourbon Street, those are great restaurants for your average person coming into "the big city" from the rural part of the state. Hell, they aren't bad restaurants anyway. You want really great stuff, you might have to go to Midtown or Automobile Alley.

What's going to make OKC great is when these districts finish growing together. The streetcar goes in, and In about 10 years this place will rock.

I know we are way, way off the topic here but wanted to share this...

This is a .5 mile radius, so nothing in this circle is more than a mile from anything else.

Think about everything located in this area. When I have more time, I might just count up the bars, restaurants, hotel rooms, living units, entertainment and recreation venues, etc. Not to mention the thousands of workers.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cbdradius.jpg

OKC's urban core and districts are also better positioned to continue to connect more and more. Thanks to Midtown Renaissance, Midtown and Automobile Alley will seamlessly connected in the near future, and Automobile Alley are Deep Deuce are closer to being connected too (see Times Square Development). Of course, Deep Deuce and Bricktown are already pretty well connected. And the CBD and Film Row are becoming more connected. In the not too distant future, there will be a walkable route (not just sidewalks, but interesting and engaging walk) from 13th and Walker through Midtown (east on 10th), Automobile Alley (south on Broadway), Deep Deuce, Bricktown, the CBD (west on Sheridan), to Film Row. That's where OKC's growth is really evident. Tulsa hasn't had the same type of district growth to that level.

Ya, it is very hard to miss OKC's downtown growth and it is hard not to notice what Tulsa has done so quickly. But as has been said OKC is a much larger city with a much larger downtown so not surprising while Tulsa had a better head start with a smaller pallette and already existing 'good bones' (not to mention able to 'watch' OKC for benchmarking).

I agree that it is great that both cities have proper urban cores but it wont benefit the state as a whole until the rest of the state allows Tulsa and especially OKC to be able to compete with regional and national players/competition. As long as the state keeps holding us back, OKC will always have that 2nd place feel to it when compared with the Denvers, Indys, New Orleans, Portland, SLC, and Sacramento - bunch of peer cities.

What I mean by this is the state needs to revise the tax code: my wish, get rid of the state personal income tax, remove/reduce corporate breaks to energy co's (but do this slowly so nobody goes under), allow cities to receive some income from property tax (at least corporate parcels), REDUCE the number of school districts!!!!, continue the beter liquor reforms, come up with some ideas for especially OKC to compete against regional and national competition and Tulsa to compete against regional comp. In other words, stop letting the rural rule this state - they would benefit much moreso if OKC and Tulsa could better compete.

I now have the feeling Pete will create a new thread for these past few posts, since these points are important but not too relevant to the wonderful LIFT project ... . lol.

OKC's urban core and districts are also better positioned to continue to connect more and more. Thanks to Midtown Renaissance, Midtown and Automobile Alley will seamlessly connected in the near future, and Automobile Alley are Deep Deuce are closer to being connected too (see Times Square Development). Of course, Deep Deuce and Bricktown are already pretty well connected. And the CBD and Film Row are becoming more connected. In the not too distant future, there will be a walkable route (not just sidewalks, but interesting and engaging walk) from 13th and Walker through Midtown (east on 10th), Automobile Alley (south on Broadway), Deep Deuce, Bricktown, the CBD (west on Sheridan), to Film Row. That's where OKC's growth is really evident. Tulsa hasn't had the same type of district growth to that level.

The highways surrounding Tulsa's downtown really hurt in that respect. When I went to see the show at Cain's last August, we stayed at the Ambassador on 14th and Main...I felt a little ridiculous taking a cab to/from the hotel because it's barely a mile walk, but it's such an uninspiring walk that it felt like the only option.

But with 75 being right there, it doesn't really foster the connectivity that you would want to see between Cherry St. all the way up to Brady district, which is only about 1/5 mile further than Reno/Walnut to 13th/Walker, and about a 1/2 mile shorter than the distance between the Boathouse district and 13th/Walker.

Tulsa and OKC each have their natural advantages, but OKC is ahead overall at the moment. The MAPS programs have succeeded in a massive way, while Tulsa's city government has been riven by political infighting. OKC has the Thunder, and while the BOK Center is fine, nothing there can compete with an NBA team. The Innovation District is another major advantage: Tulsa has the IDL highway, which is strangling downtown, and ODOT just spent almost $100 million rebuilding it. Doing anything to fix the IDL is decades away in Tulsa. Yeah, OKC has I-235, but at least there are rumblings of capping it to connect downtown and OUHSC. And OSU-Tulsa is making progress, but the OSU hospital is at the other end of downtown and the OSU health campus is on the other side of the river. What is happening in the Brady and Blue Dome area is impressive, but it's 10-15 years behind Bricktown/DD/Auto Alley. McNellie's opened in 2004, and I am too young to know for sure but I remember it being the first reason to go to Downtown Tulsa outside of Spaghetti Warehouse, basically. (I was too young for Cain's and for most shows at the Brady).

On the other hand, if Tulsa gets their act together with the Arkansas River, that could be a natural resource that compares quite favorably with Riversport and the Boathouse District. Despite all of MAPS' successes, I don't think it's totally fair to criticize Tulsa's (admittedly terrible) parking craters at the south end of their downtown while glossing over our 30ish totally empty city blocks south of our own downtown. Yes, we're getting a convention center, a huge park, and some other cool stuff, but it's totally reasonable for a visitor to OKC to question what the heck is going on between Reno and I-40 right now (and the boulevard is another potential challenge/opportunity). I used to think Brookside and Cherry Street were huge advantages over OKC, but the Plaza, Uptown, and other areas have neutralized that. One spot where I do think Tulsa still has a big advantage, and likely always will, is in its historic housing stock, which by my estimation dwarves OKC's (though I don't have numbers or statistics for that).

Basically, my point is, OKC and Tulsa partisans are sometimes too blind to the respective advantages of each city. It's best for our state if both our big cities thrive!

I don't think it's totally fair to criticize Tulsa's (admittedly terrible) parking craters at the south end of their downtown while glossing over our 30ish totally empty city blocks south of our own downtown. Yes, we're getting a convention center, a huge park, and some other cool stuff, but it's totally reasonable for a visitor to OKC to question what the heck is going on between Reno and I-40 right now (and the boulevard is another potential challenge/opportunity).

Just wanted to point out the convention center and park are fully funded and in progress, so most of that area will be developed in the next 2-3 years.

That will really only leave the Producers Coop but specific plans are underway for that too, with significant investment (purchase of both the Lumberyard and Coop itself) already made.

Very different than just tons of surface lots without any clear plan or committed developers. In Tulsa's situation, those holes are likely to be there for quite a while, as our own Core 2 Shore and MAPS stuff has been in the works for a couple of decades, just to get us to where we are now.