Tulsa got the first The Fresh Market. Why doesn't OKC have one.

Tulsa got the first The Fresh Market. Why doesn't OKC have one.

Because we're just not worthy. :(:(

Sprouts is very similar to Fresh Market and there are three in the metro area.

Fresh Market is more akin to smaller Uptown Grocery or larger Native Roots than Sprouts.

Fresh Market is more akin to smaller Uptown Grocery or larger Native Roots than Sprouts.

I agree. There was quite a few of them in Charlotte. I always thought they were more like a miniature Whole Foods.

After eating at a Cheddar's once and having a two-inch long cockroach walk across my table I don't think I'll ever be eating at another one again.

We gave Cheddar's several tries. Each time the food or the service was just terrible. My favorite visit was having to interrupt the server for my check as she flirted with two employees taking their break at another table.

Fresh Market is more akin to smaller Uptown Grocery or larger Native Roots than Sprouts.

Uptown Grocery and Native Roots aren't even on the same level. Uptown Grocery is still Buy For Less just with a nicer skin, the quality of most of the fresh food products sucks and is the exact same stuff they offer at Buy For Less. Native Roots cares a lot more about the quality brands they carry, and closer to a smaller Whole Foods.

Steve's tweet:

@stevelackmeyer: FYI - Heard from more sources about Western & Memorial rumors of Costco, Top Golf, H&M... sources say rumors absolutely not true. At all.

edit - warreng beat me to it. not sure who is sources are, but i knew about Costco looking at that corner before Pete even posted it here.

clarified to me that it's regarding those specific retailers, not the entire project, FYI

Steve's tweet:

@stevelackmeyer: FYI - Heard from more sources about Western & Memorial rumors of Costco, Top Golf, H&M... sources say rumors absolutely not true. At all.

Doesn't surprise me. Costco may not pull the plug on an OKC location until they see how well their location in Tulsa does, we will have to see.

Doesn't surprise me. Costco probably won't pull the plug on an OKC location until they see how well their location in Tulsa does.

Like clockwork

How about the costco MOU that Pete mentioned at the beginning of this thread?

Steve said that he heard Costco pulled back after Sam's announced their store in Fox Lake Plaza in Edmond. That doesn't jive at all with what I was told by my contact, who about 2 months ago said it still on the plate, well after that Sam's was built or started on.

How about the costco MOU that Pete mentioned at the beginning of this thread?

As far as I know, nothing has changed.

Steve said that he heard Costco pulled back after Sam's announced their store in Fox Lake Plaza in Edmond. That doesn't jive at all with what I was told by my contact, who about 2 months ago said it still on the plate, well after that Sam's was built or started on.

If what Steve said is indeed the case, I guess I was right about Wal-Mart stifling retail development in OKC and keeping out competition. Hopefully he is wrong about this.

Like clockwork

Lol. Beat me to it.

Steve said that he heard Costco pulled back after Sam's announced their store in Fox Lake Plaza in Edmond. That doesn't jive at all with what I was told by my contact, who about 2 months ago said it still on the plate, well after that Sam's was built or started on.

That Edmond Sam's Club was announced over a year ago.

And it's already open as of early October.

That Edmond Sam's Club was announced over a year ago.

And it's already open as of early October.

Right, that was my point. Something doesn't mesh.

Right, that was my point. Something doesn't mesh.

What doesn't mesh is the Oklahoman probably not having the same information that you & I and a select few in real estate and construction have.

Costco isn't going to say anything (still tight-lipped about Tulsa, too) so how can you possibly say they are NOT coming?

Not being aware of something is very different than saying it definitely is not going to happen.

"Not worried."

What doesn't mesh is the Oklahoman probably not having the same information that you & I and a select few in real estate and construction have.

Costco isn't going to say anything (still tight-lipped about Tulsa, too) so how can you possibly say they are NOT coming?

Not being aware of something is very different than saying it definitely is not going to happen.

Exactly, sorry if my post came across as accusatory towards you, not my intent there.

Exactly, sorry if my post came across as accusatory towards you, not my intent there.

Understand completely!


There is an obvious agenda to discredit the information that has been shared here, but that's a whole other subject.

Understand completely!


There is an obvious agenda to discredit the information that has been shared here, but that's a whole other subject.

Maybe the deal is not finalized and the information having been leaked has put it in jeopardy. According to Steve that can easily happen prior to something being final.

What he said is that they lost interest when Sam's announced their Edmond site over a year ago, not that the deal has just fallen apart.

well, we know that at least 1/3 of Steve's tweet is false:

TopGolf Aims to Open in Oklahoma City | TopGolf (http://topgolf.com/company/press/press-releases/topgolf-aims-to-open-in-oklahoma-city/)

The Oklahoman has also not even mentioned Main Event, which has already filed for a building permit and liquor license at the exact location we pinpointed some time ago.

They have their sources and we have ours. And I assure you, they are not the same when it comes to the Costco story.

What is with the Oklahoman continually trying to discredit this website? I understand wanting to be the first one to a story, but their continual efforts to discredit this website seem childish and a bit annoying...

What is with the Oklahoman continually trying to discredit this website? I understand wanting to be the first one to a story, but their continual efforts to discredit this website seem childish and a bit annoying...

Probably to keep journalistic integrity. Sometimes at this site it's hard to separate speculation from facts, and the Oklahoman doesn't want to endorse anything that isn't hard facts from their trusted sources.

Not to muddy the waters, but nothing has been SIGNED with Costco yet. Not saying it won't be, but isn't yet a done deal. That is as of last week, at least.

Probably to keep journalistic integrity. Sometimes at this site it's hard to separate speculation from facts, and the Oklahoman doesn't want to endorse anything that isn't hard facts from their trusted sources.

I understand wanting to keep journalistic integrity, and much of this site is speculation. But if there is a story that appears on here that the Oklahoman believes to not be true, why comment on it? Just let the story unfold and have OKCTalk be proven wrong.

I wanted to point out a couple of things...

1. I was a commercial real estate broker in OKC for seven years and specialized in retail properties. I negotiated over 100 lease transactions and countless sales, won sales awards, had exclusive local representation with big-box retailers, etc. I have also held various executive positions where I was responsible for real estate, including a bunch of multi-million dollar construction projects. Trust me, I have a much better understanding of large real estate deals than anyone else reporting on these subjects in Oklahoma City.

2. My motivation is what is best for OKC which is what has always been behind my purchase, operation and participation in this forum. If I have information that may be contrary to the best interests of the community, I am always very careful. A specific example: I was contacted by Reuters when they were in the middle of carving up Aubrey McClendon and I decided not to share the comprehensive data I keep on Chesapeake's real estate dealings; primarily because I didn't want to contribute to the possible downfall of a major local employer. (BTW, I will ultimately share what I have, now that the shoe has already fallen.)


Therefore, any claim that we don't know what we are talking about or that other reporters have some sort of superior ethics when it comes to discretion amounts to nothing more than sour grapes, which should be increasingly obvious by now.

What Steve is saying simply doesn't make sense unless national retailers really are afraid to compete with Wal-Mart in this market. That was just speculation on my part as to why there are no national grocers here, but if Steve is right then there is truth to it. However, I am pretty sure even the Oklahoman has reported that Costco was interested since the announcement of the Edmond Sam's.

I'll vouch for Pete. He's a good steward of confidential information and sources, and he has experience across many industries that provide him with context about everything from details to the bigger picture. And I haven't observed any hints of a grudge or agenda.

Incidentally, sources lie to reporters all the time, and more than anything else, reporters hate being lied to so well that they publish the misinformation and have to retract at a later date. But it happens.

The first rule of talking to a reporter is "Don't lie." Never get in a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.

Those that have come in since WalMart established itself with a 35% market share have done very well; specifically Sprouts, Whole Foods and Uptown Grocery.

The only reason WalMart got such a foothold in the first place was due to the lack of a good, competitive chain like Safeway/Vons or Kroger/Ralph's. Homeland bought out the old Safeways in Oklahoma then proceed to do absolutely nothing while even Safeway was making huge changes to it's stores and merchandising.

There was a massive vacuum and WalMart stepped into it, and even that didn't motivate Homeland.

Only now have competitors started to step up and they are being rewarded. Expect more.

Those that have come in since WalMart established itself with a 35% market share have done very well; specifically Sprouts, Whole Foods and Uptown Grocery.

The only reason WalMart got such a foothold in the first place was due to the lack of a good, competitive chain like Safeway/Vons or Kroger/Ralph's. Homeland bought out the old Safeways in Oklahoma then proceed to do absolutely nothing while even Safeway was making huge changes to it's stores and merchandising.

There was a massive vacuum and WalMart stepped into it, and even that didn't motivate Homeland.

Only now have competitors started to step up and they are being rewarded. Expect more.

What does motivate Homeland? I've been trying to figure that our for years. They need to try a new concept. Perhaps they could rebrand the store on 18th and Classen and go for their version of the Uptown Grocery, or a pseudo-Trader Joe's. Their brand is terrible and dated -- as are many of their stores.

Incidentally, sources lie to reporters all the time, and more than anything else, reporters hate being lied to so well that they publish the misinformation and have to retract at a later date. But it happens.

The first rule of talking to a reporter is "Don't lie." Never get in a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.

It wouldn't surprise me. Costco coming to OKC will be such a big announcement I am sure they are unhappy the possibility leaked before it was final. I also wonder where Tulsa World is getting the information that Costco is coming to Tulsa first from, and why Steve would tweet that article as proof that Costco was opening in Tulsa when the article didn't actually say that.

What does motivate Homeland? I've been trying to figure that our for years. They need to try a new concept. Perhaps they could rebrand the store on 18th and Classen and go for their version of the Uptown Grocery, or a pseudo-Trader Joe's. Their brand is terrible and dated -- as are many of their stores.

No kidding. Most places that are "employee owned" have a lot more pride than Homeland. It's kinda a joke really.

As we've discussed, traditional reporters operate under very different constraints.

Most notably, they have to call someone up and get them to go on the record and in most cases, people won't do that.


We rarely call anyone... They "call" us, because we have hundreds of connected people that know things and for the most part, people want to share (and often only have a part of a puzzle they are trying to put together themselves). Very, very few of those people would even respond to a reporter from the Oklahoman, let alone call/write to volunteer information.

And of course, we don't just put out every rumor we hear. I was told about Costco and some of the others a long time ago but only after hearing the same thing from several different trusted sources did I make the original post in this thread.


There is a place for both of these types of reporting/communication as I've said many times.

What does motivate Homeland? I've been trying to figure that our for years. They need to try a new concept. Perhaps they could rebrand the store on 18th and Classen and go for their version of the Uptown Grocery, or a pseudo-Trader Joe's. Their brand is terrible and dated -- as are many of their stores.

The are an incredibly weak operation that clearly isn't interested in growing.

They probably make a decent profit with every little effort. I'm sure that is eroding but they obviously don't have the management and/or financial backing to do anything about it.

Most their locations are nothing short of shameful.

What does motivate Homeland? I've been trying to figure that our for years. They need to try a new concept. Perhaps they could rebrand the store on 18th and Classen and go for their version of the Uptown Grocery, or a pseudo-Trader Joe's. Their brand is terrible and dated -- as are many of their stores.

I wonder if Homeland is really operating on such low profit margins they simply cannot afford to remodel their stores. I don't think I've heard of a new Homeland opening or planned ever. They close all the time though. I am sure the ones like the Britton and May location that have been remodeled are the real money makers in the chain. If I were Homeland, I would slowly remodel the entire chain, rebranding as they are remodeled. The Britton and May location could be rebranded as is and then expand from there.

Looks like Homeland operates 43 locations in Oklahoma and one in Kansas.

Most of these are old stores, many in smaller communities.


But even in OKC, most are holdovers from when grocery stores were quite smaller -- with far less offerings -- than those that are common today.

I believe the May & Britton location was an Albertsons and thus larger which is probably why it made some sense to remodel it. They could probably fit in most the features found in new stores.

The rest are old and small and perhaps they can't justify extensive remodels without the space to do it right. Or simply, they don't want to spend the money.


But clearly, they aren't growth minded in the least. I know a lot of people are employed by Homeland but I wish they would just completely collapse and have their business absorbed by a chain that actually cared to offer a decent shopping experience.

The worst thing that ever happened to grocery shopping in Oklahoma is when the local group bought out the Safeways in 1987 and became completely insular from every relevant trend in that industry. The 90's saw incredible changes in all aspects of retailing yet Homeland is attempting to operate like it's still the 80's.

They actually went bankrupt in 2002 (big surprise!) and is now owned by it's employees.

Homeland's motivation is to preserve the status quo with a bare minimum of investment.

I just checked and that Homeland at May & Britton is about 57,000 square feet while the one at 18th & Classen is only about half that size. Same for the now-closed location at NW 39th & Penn.

But even 57,000 SF is smallish by modern grocery store standards.

Most newer stores now are 70,000+.

I just checked and that Homeland at May & Britton is about 57,000 square feet while the one at 18th & Classen is only about half that size. Same for the now-closed location at NW 39th & Penn.

But even 57,000 SF is smallish by modern grocery store standards.

Most newer stores now are 70,000+.

Put this in the rumor category but a few people in my neighborhood told me that the 18th St homeland makes most of its money on food stamps and can't justify the expense of inproving the store. If that's their primary target market in some parts of town, I can see why they don't want to renovate anything, but that's a really dumb strategy.

Last time I was in that Homeland, I was in front of a woman who was getting pissed that they wouldn't take her EBT funds to buy Ding Dongs. True story.

Ironically, they have one small section on the north side of the store with a selection of fine cheeses and sandwich meats. So they know that they can make money selling higher quality goods. Why they choose not to is beyond me. I haven't been to that Homeland since the Ding Dong incident. For me its Native Roots for the good stuff and Target or CVS for the basics.

I just checked and that Homeland at May & Britton is about 57,000 square feet while the one at 18th & Classen is only about half that size. Same for the now-closed location at NW 39th & Penn.

But even 57,000 SF is smallish by modern grocery store standards.

Most newer stores now are 70,000+.

I personally love the huge size of the Edmond Crest as well as the new Southside Fresh Market locations. There is a definite difference between those locations and regular Crest locations which are about the size of an average Homeland. Crest is slowly but surely bringing modern grocery shopping to the metro. Hopefully the rumor is true about Uptown Grocery building more locations as well.

As we've discussed, traditional reporters operate under very different constraints.

Most notably, they have to call someone up and get them to go on the record and in most cases, people won't do that.


We rarely call anyone... They "call" us, because we have hundreds of connected people that know things and for the most part, people want to share (and often only have a part of a puzzle they are trying to put together themselves). Very, very few of those people would even respond to a reporter from the Oklahoman, let alone call/write to volunteer information.

And of course, we don't just put out every rumor we hear. I was told about Costco and some of the others a long time ago but only after hearing the same thing from several different trusted sources did I make the original post in this thread.


There is a place for both of these types of reporting/communication as I've said many times.

I've posted this here before, but Henry Jenkins' ideas about how old and new (Web 2.0) media interact and evolve is very interesting (link to book (http://www.amazon.com/Convergence-Culture-Where-Media-Collide/dp/0814742955)). The first chapter provides a nice theoretical lens for understanding the changing media environment where collective intelligence and an ethic of participation can create, and improve, media... which applies well to the OKC market with an exceptional site like this one. Of course, traditional media institutions like the Oklahoman will have some rough moments as things change, but they're still very valuable... just like this site.

^

Thanks for the book recommendation -- I'll definitely read it.

There was a series of documentaries on PBS's Frontline on a similar topic that I really enjoyed.

No kidding. Most places that are "employee owned" have a lot more pride than Homeland. It's kinda a joke really.
When the "employee owners" is made up of a handful of executives you know where them motivation lies.


Looks like Homeland operates 43 locations in Oklahoma and one in Kansas.

Most of these are old stores, many in smaller communities.


But even in OKC, most are holdovers from when grocery stores were quite smaller -- with far less offerings -- than those that are common today.

I believe the May & Britton location was an Albertsons and thus larger which is probably why it made some sense to remodel it. They could probably fit in most the features found in new stores.

The rest are old and small and perhaps they can't justify extensive remodels without the space to do it right. Or simply, they don't want to spend the money.


But clearly, they aren't growth minded in the least. I know a lot of people are employed by Homeland but I wish they would just completely collapse and have their business absorbed by a chain that actually cared to offer a decent shopping experience.

The worst thing that ever happened to grocery shopping in Oklahoma is when the local group bought out the Safeways in 1987 and became completely insular from every relevant trend in that industry. The 90's saw incredible changes in all aspects of retailing yet Homeland is attempting to operate like it's still the 80's.

They actually went bankrupt in 2002 (big surprise!) and is now owned by it's employees.
Safeway was in a world of financial hurt after the Michael Milken junk bond collapse and was shedding assets which was why the OKC Safeway management was able to buy the Oklahoma assets to start Homeland. The Apple Tree group out of Houston bought the Safeway stores in Houston and Austin at the same time, they all closed up before I moved to Austin in 2003. In the early 90's Homeland was improving stores but not to the same level of what was happening in other markets. I seem to remember a big management/ownership shift in the mid-to-late 90's and that was when they really started going downhill fast.

The Britton & May location was built as an Albertson's replacing the old one across Britton Road.

OKC could use a store like Reasor's. I'm not sure why Reasor's isn't already in the metro.

Last time I was in that Homeland, I was in front of a woman who was getting pissed that they wouldn't take her EBT funds to buy Ding Dongs. True story.

Ironically, they have one small section on the north side of the store with a selection of fine cheeses and sandwich meats. So they know that they can make money selling higher quality goods. Why they choose not to is beyond me. I haven't been to that Homeland since the Ding Dong incident. For me its Native Roots for the good stuff and Target or CVS for the basics.

I've always hated shopping at the Homeland near my house (33rd in Edmond between Broadway & Boulevard). It was unkept, expensive, and the staff couldn't care less about their jobs.

That said, the past couple times I've been in there it has been noticeably cleaner and they've hired some new staff that seems much happier. Still more expensive than most places but they do run some good deals (with card).

It wouldn't surprise me. Costco coming to OKC will be such a big announcement I am sure they are unhappy the possibility leaked before it was final. I also wonder where Tulsa World is getting the information that Costco is coming to Tulsa first from, and why Steve would tweet that article as proof that Costco was opening in Tulsa when the article didn't actually say that.

As I mentioned previously. the Tulsa World article does not say that Costco is going to Tulsa first. It says they are looking for their first Tulsa location.

OKC could use a store like Reasor's. I'm not sure why Reasor's isn't already in the metro.

One or two are going into Edmond next year from what I've heard from a few homeland employees.

I thought this thread was about retail explosion on memorial, why did all of a sudden change to homeland thread.

We have ADD.

Oh look a cat.

As I mentioned previously. the Tulsa World article does not say that Costco is going to Tulsa first. It says they are looking for their first Tulsa location.

Steve said they are going to Tulsa first based on that article though. He also says they lost interest in OKC because of competition from Wal-Mart. Both are things that I am not sure why he would tweet unless his first and foremost priority is discrediting OKCTalk.

On addicted to costco blog site. They reported that the dirt work has started on the tulsa costco site and that the okc/edmond one soon to follow. Anybody heard anything.

On addicted to costco blog site. They reported that the dirt work has started on the tulsa costco site and that the okc/edmond one soon to follow. Anybody heard anything.

Do you have a link?