The COSTCO store I still think is PIE in the SKY. OKLAHOMA has its restrictive PRESCRIPTION EYEWEAR and ALCOHOL laws that would probably impact a good 10-40% of COSTCO's revenue as compared to a store in North TEXAS. The only thing I could see happening is maybe a smaller footprint of a store may the their concept in this case

The rest of everything I see looks like a developer based here in TX just slammed onto a map. CABELAS came to NTX with a bunch on incentives (tax credits) and I think they have learned finally how to re-jigger a store to suit the SW US. No RESTAURANT, Go Easy on the THERMAL and CAMPING GEAR and blow out half or more of the store to GUNS and AMMO and the other HALF to BOATS and FISHING (just another Bass Pro if you ask).

H&M is foreign and caters to the body type of XS-L There is no XL or above. Something that the normal American Bodytype is not. We love our processed food sitting in front of the TV. Definitely not the European body type nor activity style.

The ACTIVITY based concepts - Bowling, Golf. They may have a chance. But look around there is already an AMF lanes on Penn between Hefner and 122. All the Putt Putt or Incedible Pizza locations with miniature were geared to family and they are gone. OKLAHOMA has its 'near beer' and for these establishments to cater to the $money$ they will need to shun the family and shoot for the single and couples and professionals. The last thing someone who wants to get their 'buzz on' and is to hear a screaming kid(s) that are terrorizing a place!

Surprised that IKEA and NEBRASKA FURNITURE MART are shown. But then again that would steal thunder for all the OK folk who trek to N.TX for the weekend

WHY do you TYPE like THAT?

For all the SIMs-In-The-Real-World Players (SIMsITRW) in here, not yet actually familiar with the building site under consideration, I would suggest a drive into Walmartia (from the North, South, East or West). . . say, oh I dunno, around Christmas? Or on any given Friday, Saturday or Sunday in the morning or evening.

If you like what you experience, I say Go For It.

Shoot, maybe Stage Center can be relocated to this corner of Suburbia and serve as a museum for all the Snail Darters, Whooping Cranes and Spotted Owls that will be displaced. =)

Why . . . There might even be room to include a Mystery Tower.

If none of that is feasible, at least look at the design alternatives associated with The Shoppes at West End in the vicinity of St. Paul or that area in "MapleGrove" (or whatever) MN with a Buco di Beppo location.

"Wilbur . . . I'm gettin' damn tired of all this 'neigh-saying'"
https://static.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/51ce6099e4b0d911b4489b79/51ce61a4e4b0d911b449b2fe/1317757052097/1000w/MrEd.jpg

For all the SIMs-In-The-Real-World Players (SIMsITRW) in here, not yet actually familiar with the building site under consideration, I would suggest a drive into Walmartia (from the North, South, East or West). . . say, oh I dunno, around Christmas? Or on any given Friday, Saturday or Sunday in the morning or evening.

If you like what you experience, I say Go For It.

Shoot, maybe Stage Center can be relocated to this corner of Suburbia and serve as a museum for all the Snail Darters, Whooping Cranes and Spotted Owls that will be displaced. =)

Why . . . There might even be room to include a Mystery Tower.

If none of that is feasible, at least look at the design alternatives associated with The Shoppes at West End in the vicinity of St. Paul or that area in "MapleGrove" (or whatever) MN with a Buco di Beppo location.

"Wilbur . . . I'm gettin' damn tired of all this 'neigh-saying'"
https://static.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/51ce6099e4b0d911b4489b79/51ce61a4e4b0d911b449b2fe/1317757052097/1000w/MrEd.jpg

How would you propose putting Costco downtown then? Personally, I think huge warehouse stores like that are better fit for the suburbs. I dread the day Wal-Mart proposes a Supercenter downtown. A lot if people will support it because it will give downtown residents a grocery store, but the huge box and sea of parking will be detrimental to downtown in the long run. I think retail in downtown OKC could work the way it currently does in Louisville. Big box retail though belongs on Memorial.

National retailers could care less about conforming to the urban design standard most of us want to see downtown. Remember what happened with Office Depot?

How would you propose putting Costco downtown then? ...

Friend, you must have skipped the class on how to read, understand and respond to RadicalModerate.
Step 1) print out what he posted in a large font -- you'll be grateful for the large, easy-to-read font at step 5.
Step 2) (mis en place) go buy a good cigar, a good bottle if wine, a bottle of tequila (cost will be immaterial by the time you get to it), and a cheap six-pack of beer.
Step 3) look up RM's DIY Dinners, pick one out, make it at home, enjoy it with the wine.
Step 4) fire up the cigar and read what you printed out in step 1.
Step 5) engage the tequila, one shot at a time, alternately reading and drinking until you think you understand what RM wrote.
Step 6) pay no attention to the time of day -- call up your ex. Read RM's post to him or her. Tell your ex what you think it means. Ask their opinion on the matter. Before they respond, holler, "Crap! The cops are here!" and terminate the call.
Step 7) drunk dial any other number in your contact list and repeat step 6.
Step 8) crack open a beer and sit down at your computer (not that one -- the one in the middle) and craft your response.
Step 9) delete your response and repeat step 8 with a fresh beer.
Step 10) yeah, again, but actually post it this time.
Step 11) finish off the tequila and beer, if necessary, and call your ex again.

High End Retail means like what's in New York,LA,Chicago and so on like Bloomingdales. Mega Marshall's and TJMAXX and More are considered a Big Box Store.

Friend, you must have skipped the class on how to read, understand and respond to RadicalModerate.
Step 1) print out what he posted in a large font -- you'll be grateful for the large, easy-to-read font at step 5.
Step 2) (mis en place) go buy a good cigar, a good bottle if wine, a bottle of tequila (cost will be immaterial by the time you get to it), and a cheap six-pack of beer.
Step 3) look up RM's DIY Dinners, pick one out, make it at home, enjoy it with the wine.
Step 4) fire up the cigar and read what you printed out in step 1.
Step 5) engage the tequila, one shot at a time, alternately reading and drinking until you think you understand what RM wrote.
Step 6) pay no attention to the time of day -- call up your ex. Read RM's post to him or her. Tell your ex what you think it means. Ask their opinion on the matter. Before they respond, holler, "Crap! The cops are here!" and terminate the call.
Step 7) drunk dial any other number in your contact list and repeat step 6.
Step 8) crack open a beer and sit down at your computer (not that one -- the one in the middle) and craft your response.
Step 9) delete your response and repeat step 8 with a fresh beer.
Step 10) yeah, again, but actually post it this time.
Step 11) finish off the tequila and beer, if necessary, and call your ex again.Yeah I just pay this guy that works in the Samsung Appliance Black Market 780(BUCKS) to illegally enter the country of France and have some top men-TOP MEN- decipher the post and form a/n response(s). Now, if that doesn't work, then sometimes a few people end up dying for the greater good, but I don't want to get into that mess.

I can actually some poems that RadicalModerate has made over the years. Do the math, it took me 2,600 dollars for a plane ticket to Moscow to find someone whom is in the business of illegal Samsung appliance trading, and $5,000 to supply with him weapons-just in case-and I can now sell RadMod's poems for about 5 bucks a piece. It takes me on average a little over $700 to successfully sell one of his poems, so I am a little in the red, but. . . you got to spend money to make money champ, moving on!

How would you propose putting Costco downtown then? Personally, I think huge warehouse stores like that are better fit for the suburbs. I dread the day Wal-Mart proposes a Supercenter downtown. A lot if people will support it because it will give downtown residents a grocery store, but the huge box and sea of parking will be detrimental to downtown in the long run. I think retail in downtown OKC could work the way it currently does in Louisville. Big box retail though belongs on Memorial.

National retailers could care less about conforming to the urban design standard most of us want to see downtown. Remember what happened with Office Depot?

Is the former "Aubreyville" on Western considered "downtown"?
Perhaps the solution and answer to the question resides therein.
Keyword: Perhaps.

Friend, you must have skipped the class on how to read, understand and respond to RadicalModerate.
Step 1) print out what he posted in a large font -- you'll be grateful for the large, easy-to-read font at step 5.
Step 2) (mis en place) go buy a good cigar, a good bottle if wine, a bottle of tequila (cost will be immaterial by the time you get to it), and a cheap six-pack of beer.
Step 3) look up RM's DIY Dinners, pick one out, make it at home, enjoy it with the wine.
Step 4) fire up the cigar and read what you printed out in step 1.
Step 5) engage the tequila, one shot at a time, alternately reading and drinking until you think you understand what RM wrote.
Step 6) pay no attention to the time of day -- call up your ex. Read RM's post to him or her. Tell your ex what you think it means. Ask their opinion on the matter. Before they respond, holler, "Crap! The cops are here!" and terminate the call.
Step 7) drunk dial any other number in your contact list and repeat step 6.
Step 8) crack open a beer and sit down at your computer (not that one -- the one in the middle) and craft your response.
Step 9) delete your response and repeat step 8 with a fresh beer.
Step 10) yeah, again, but actually post it this time.
Step 11) finish off the tequila and beer, if necessary, and call your ex again.

Excellent!
Except for forgetting to mention that it has to be a Darft! beer.

It's the beer that first made Altoona famous. doncha know.
Next is Memorial and Penn/Western!

Frankly, I'm humbled that anyone pays any attention to my opinions about stuff.

BTW, wine, spirits and beer account for only 3% of Costco overall sales; nothing like 10-40%.

LINK (http://www.shankennewsdaily.com/index.php/2013/05/31/5969/costco-reports-8-rise-in-beverage-alcohol-for-first-three-quarters-as-spirits-sales-lead-growth/)


Also, there are plenty of locations that have separate-entry liquor stores attached to the larger warehouse, including at least five in Colorado.

Optical is certainly a minuscule percentage.
The two Costco stores that we frequent (Parker, Park Meadows) do not have the separate liquor stores, they do have 3.2 beer. I don't recall them at the two other Costco stores I have been to up here (Aurora, Arvada). The Sam's stores that we go to both have the separate liquor store. I know there are quite a few Costco locations in the Denver metro area so other areas may have the liquor stores, Colorado also have very similar regulations regarding liquor store ownership in that one person can only have one package store. The main difference is the residency requirement in Oklahoma.

The two Austin Costco stores have the separate liquor stores but none of the Sam's we went to did. We never went to the Coscto liquor store anyway, did get wine and beer in the main Costco or Sam's at times but there was a Spec's near both stores and in the same parking lot as one of the Sam's and we usually bought there.

Costco is "high end" for here. Where I'm from, bloomingdales, nordstrom, The Fresh Market, Central Market, Barney's, Saks is what is high end retail chains. Nevertheless, Costco is a huge upgrade from Sams. I hope OKc continues to attract better stores. I also hope some of that sweet sweet lovin spreads to Norman one day.

Friend, you must have skipped the class on how to read, understand and respond to RadicalModerate.
Step 1) print out what he posted in a large font -- you'll be grateful for the large, easy-to-read font at step 5.
Step 2) (mis en place) go buy a good cigar, a good bottle if wine, a bottle of tequila (cost will be immaterial by the time you get to it), and a cheap six-pack of beer.
Step 3) look up RM's DIY Dinners, pick one out, make it at home, enjoy it with the wine.
Step 4) fire up the cigar and read what you printed out in step 1.
Step 5) engage the tequila, one shot at a time, alternately reading and drinking until you think you understand what RM wrote.
Step 6) pay no attention to the time of day -- call up your ex. Read RM's post to him or her. Tell your ex what you think it means. Ask their opinion on the matter. Before they respond, holler, "Crap! The cops are here!" and terminate the call.
Step 7) drunk dial any other number in your contact list and repeat step 6.
Step 8) crack open a beer and sit down at your computer (not that one -- the one in the middle) and craft your response.
Step 9) delete your response and repeat step 8 with a fresh beer.
Step 10) yeah, again, but actually post it this time.
Step 11) finish off the tequila and beer, if necessary, and call your ex again.
RM and I get along quite well in spite of our complete incompatibility. :)
And I follow almost none of those examples.

I've never been in a Costco, but isn't it essentially another massive warehouse type of store?

I don't consider massive warehouse stores to be "upscale."
The former Crescent Market was more of an "upscale" grocery store. In my opinion.
I didn't shop there often, but I enjoyed it each time I did.

I shop at both Costco and Sam's but I don't see a huge difference between the two, other than Costco paints the inside of their stores white so it seems brighter inside there. They have many of the same products, Costco may have some nicer things but it isn't like a Neiman-Marcus compared to Walmart, more like Target to Walmart but not even that big of a step. It still comes down to more options is good for the OKC market.

I shop at both Costco and Sam's but I don't see a huge difference between the two, other than Costco paints the inside of their stores white so it seems brighter inside there. They have many of the same products, Costco may have some nicer things but it isn't like a Neiman-Marcus compared to Walmart, more like Target to Walmart but not even that big of a step.

I respectfully disagree.

IMO there is a huge difference between the two, at least as wide as what separates Target from Walmart.

Costco pays and treats their employees well, and it shows in every interaction there; customer service is amazing. Their stores are much brighter and pleasant. Costco has thousands of items labeled under their own Kirkland brand (food, clothing, alcohol, household items and almost everything else), and all are excellent quality and value. I much prefer the general selection of merchandise in Costco, which is important because warehouse stores tend to carry only one or two items in each category -- they stock way fewer different items then most large stores.

We have both Sam's and Costco near my home and I've been in Sam's twice, was always anxious to leave, and let my membership expire. I go to Costco several times a month and look forward to it.

There is a massive cult following of Costco for all these reasons and more. It seems people go to Sam's almost grudgingly.

Employees that are treated well makes for a better shopping experience. IMHO

That's an ongoing battle in my industry. For the cost of outsourcing (lower pay and no brand/company loyalty) they can achieve higher margins on marginal service than tighter margins on excellent service. Some companies are okay with marginal service as long as they make a profit.

I respectfully disagree.

IMO there is a huge difference between the two, at least as wide as what separates Target from Walmart.

Costco pays and treats their employees well, and it shows in every interaction there; customer service is amazing. Their stores are much brighter and pleasant. Costco has thousands of items labeled under their own Kirkland brand (food, clothing, alcohol, household items and almost everything else), and all are excellent quality and value. I much prefer the general selection of merchandise in Costco, which is important because warehouse stores tend to carry only one or two items in each category -- they stock way fewer different items then most large stores.

We have both Sam's and Costco near my home and I've been in Sam's twice, was always anxious to leave, and let my membership expire. I go to Costco several times a month and look forward to it.

There is a massive cult following of Costco for all these reasons and more. It seems people go to Sam's almost grudgingly.
Just because there is a cult doesn't mean there is a huge difference in reality, the cultists tend to be that way more because of perception and the majority of shoppers don't buy into the cultish aspect. For the average customer, most don't care about how Costco and Sam's treat their employees, they are concerned more about what items are in stock and what the prices are or else Walmart wouldn't be the dominate retailer in the country.

We do prefer Costco but go to both about once a month because one has items we prefer over the other, the items that both have we just pick up at whatever store when we need it. We hadn't even been in a Costco until they started construction of the one in South Austin. We visited the North Austin store and bought in at that time, mainly because they had some baking items that my wife liked that Sam's didn't. I have had a Sam's membership since the mid-80's and the other club store that Sam's eventually bought out which was at Memorial and Broadway, I can't remember the name of that place.

Just because there is a cult doesn't mean there is a huge difference in reality, the cultists tend to be that way more because of perception and the majority of shoppers don't buy into the cultish aspect. For the average customer, most don't care about how Costco and Sam's treat their employees, they are concerned more about what items are in stock and what the prices are or else Walmart wouldn't be the dominate retailer in the country.

We do prefer Costco but go to both about once a month because one has items we prefer over the other, the items that both have we just pick up at whatever store when we need it. We hadn't even been in a Costco until they started construction of the one in South Austin. We visited the North Austin store and bought in at that time, mainly because they had some baking items that my wife liked that Sam's didn't. I have had a Sam's membership since the mid-80's and the other club store that Sam's eventually bought out which was at Memorial and Broadway, I can't remember the name of that place.

What a ridiculous characterization. Most shoppers probably don't know how Sam's Club treats its employees, but don't diminish the potential for people to make a conscious decision to support a business that takes care of its workers.

It sounds to me like Costco has nicer stores, comparable if improved selection, similar pricing, but they treat their workers significantly better. To me it's a no brainer where I will be shopping, and I subscribe to no cult.

Is "zealot" a better phrase for you? I was merely replying to Pete's comment about the cult of Costco which is widely acknowledge to exist. I knew some of them in Austin and they held it as a badge of honor.

There are some who act cultish towards Costco and everything else is evil, usually Walmart is where they direct their ire but then it is a popular target. I just don't get that wound up about a store, I have favorites but not to the point that some people do. I would think most Costco shoppers probably shop at Sam's and Walmart as well, I know we do and we go to both Costco and Sam's more often than Walmart. I'm not a fan of Walmart but I am not a zealot against them. I have known plenty of people who worked at or work for Walmart/Sam's, most don't have the same complaints that the ones in the media have, many make a pretty danged good living considering they work in the retail world. Of course they have been there longer than a few months and didn't come in with unrealistic expectations.

If Costco had everything we were looking for we would probably drop the Sam's membership but the nature of retail being what it is doesn't lend itself to that so we will maintain both (executive membership at Costco, regular at Sam's).

I can't see why everyone is getting so excited about another mammoth sburban shopping center. This isn't going to be any different than the shopping centers at Memorial and Penn. More warehouse style stores and suburban restarants with seas of concrete parking between them. Yawn.

I can't see why everyone is getting so excited about another mammoth sburban shopping center. This isn't going to be any different than the shopping centers at Memorial and Penn. More warehouse style stores and suburban restarants with seas of concrete parking between them. Yawn.

Because, if it is built as shown, it would bring in multiple stores that many people from OKC have longed for for a while. I have gone to Dallas to specifically visit some of these stores and I know other people who have done the same. This would keep a lot of income in Oklahoma rather than it flowing to Texas every weekend.

I can't see why everyone is getting so excited about another mammoth sburban shopping center. This isn't going to be any different than the shopping centers at Memorial and Penn. More warehouse style stores and suburban restarants with seas of concrete parking between them. Yawn.

A healthy city will have a growing downtown as well as growing suburban areas. In terms of downtown vs suburbs it's both-and, not either-or. OKC's retail options, for a city this size, are very weak. Anything that will improve that is very welcome. Good development, whether it is downtown or in the burbs, is good for OKC. This city isn't at the point yet where downtown and sustain itself without the burbs.

A healthy city will have a growing downtown as well as growing suburban areas. In terms of downtown vs suburbs it's both-and, not either-or. OKC's retail options, for a city this size, are very weak. Anything that will improve that is very welcome. Good development, whether it is downtown or in the burbs, is good for OKC. This city isn't at the point yet where downtown and sustain itself without the burbs.

What he's saying though, is that this is not a good development. And he's not entirely wrong either.

Just because something is in the burbs, doesn't mean it needs to be a sea of surface parking. If this had any amount of urban principles applied, especially nearer the residential and smaller retail portions of the development, this place would have so much more appeal. In this case, it's less about fronting the streets and more about developing better pedestrian walkways.

Getting excited about the tenants is of course fine, but tenants don't make a development, they only anchor it. I understand having a sea of surface parking around Costco and MAYBE Cabela's, but the rest of the development, if it were more walkable, would make the development stronger in the long run.

I agree that it will bring in a Costco and maybe a Cabellas. But aside from that, it's nothing more than another suburban retail center, much like we already have near the area. I just don't see why there's all the excitement. It's an office complex, much like what we have west of May on Memorial. It's a hotel, probably not much different from what we have west of May on Memorial. It's suburban style apartment complexes, much of what we already have in the area. When I think of something exciting, I think of a for real lifestyle center, with retail/office/restaurant on the bottom floors and housing on the uper floors. Anyways, this will fit well in the area, as it's what's already there. What was exciting was the originally planned Tuscana north of Quail Springs Mall, but that's all fallen by the way side.

TopGolf and Crate & Barrel are other strong possibilities as is another Whole Foods. You would think several others that are not in OKC yet will follow.

Like it or not, most people in OKC care more about these things than a lot of what is happening downtown.

TopGolf and Crate & Barrel are other strong possibilities as is another Whole Foods. You would think several others that are not in OKC yet will follow.

Like it or not, most people in OKC care more about these things than a lot of what is happening downtown.

And (sadly) they care more about the ease of parking over the urban feel or a shopping center.

I guess I am one of those sad people. This is going in a little mile more to the south of me and I can't wait (if it all comes to life).

I personally just don't see the need to demand an urban feel in an area like Memorial that is not urban. Like it or not, this development, even with its flaws, represents a huge step up from the status quo in OKC. It may not be a full new urbanist community but it knocks the socks off of Belle Isle.

I personally just don't see the need to demand an urban feel in an area like Memorial that is not urban. Like it or not, this development, even with its flaws, represents a huge step up from the status quo in OKC. It may not be a full new urbanist community but it knocks the socks off of Belle Isle.

How is it a step up from the status quo? It's going to look just like any other strip shopping center.....won't look any different from Belle Isle or Quail Springs Marketplace. Just more big boxes mixed with a few restaurants, office complexes, and more apartment complexes, and seas of concrete parking lots in between. Sounds very status quo to me.

I'm not asking for urban, but I'd like to see something different. Something other than just another sububan strip shopping center. I don't see that in this proposal. Look at the original plans for Tuscana and you see what could have been. Now Tuscana would've been suburban too, but it would've been completely different from what we already have in this market.

How is it a step up from the status quo? It's going to look just like any other strip shopping center.....won't look any different from Belle Isle or Quail Springs Marketplace. Just more big boxes mixed with a few restaurants, office complexes, and more apartment complexes, and seas of concrete parking lots in between. Sounds very status quo to me.

I'm not asking for urban, but I'd like to see something different. Something other than just another sububan strip shopping center. I don't see that in this proposal. Look at the original plans for Tuscana and you see what could have been. Now Tuscana would've been suburban too, but it would've been completely different from what we already have in this market.

It isn't built yet, so don't get your hopes up...

How is it a step up from the status quo? It's going to look just like any other strip shopping center.....won't look any different from Belle Isle or Quail Springs Marketplace. Just more big boxes mixed with a few restaurants, office complexes, and more apartment complexes, and seas of concrete parking lots in between. Sounds very status quo to me.

I'm not asking for urban, but I'd like to see something different. Something other than just another sububan strip shopping center. I don't see that in this proposal. Look at the original plans for Tuscana and you see what could have been. Now Tuscana would've been suburban too, but it would've been completely different from what we already have in this market.

Based on the screenshots of the site plan posted earlier in this thread, it looks like there are some pedestrian areas between the buildings. There's the area called "The Promenade" that (I think) is for pedestrian traffic only and it looks like there are some other pedestrian areas as well. That's not to say that it couldn't have been better, but I think its at least somewhat more pedestrian-friendly than what we already have.

This new shopping center proposal reminds me exactly of what was proposed for the NE corner of Memorial and Penn....a group of restaurants towards the front around a courtyard. Big boxes all around in the back. The only difference is that this will combine a few office complexes and some suburban apartment complexes.

I remember when everyone raved about the proposed Memorial Square center or whatever it's called. Everyone raved about PF Changs. It's nothing more than just a status quo retail center. That's it.

It isn't built yet, so don't get your hopes up...

That's the sad part. Knowing the standards, or lack there of, that OKC has for these types of developments, it will likely be a mammoth strip center with little landscaping and a sludge lagoon in between a circle of restaurants at the front entrance.

It ten years, Patrick, I think you might be right and it might be a little bit of a disappointment as far as the layout is concerned. The newness will have worn off and a lot will have changed in OKC by then. But, if a Cabela's, Costco, another Whole Foods, Crate & Barrel and TopGolf (among others) will come into this shopping center, people are going to more excited about the stores coming that do not have a big presence here rather than the layout of the shopping center.

How is it a step up from the status quo? It's going to look just like any other strip shopping center.....won't look any different from Belle Isle or Quail Springs Marketplace. Just more big boxes mixed with a few restaurants, office complexes, and more apartment complexes, and seas of concrete parking lots in between. Sounds very status quo to me.

I'm not asking for urban, but I'd like to see something different. Something other than just another sububan strip shopping center. I don't see that in this proposal. Look at the original plans for Tuscana and you see what could have been. Now Tuscana would've been suburban too, but it would've been completely different from what we already have in this market.

From the initial drawing it looks like a significant step above Belle Isle. That's not saying it won't end up being another Belle Isle if it gets scaled down like many of these developments do. One thing that will give it a leg up no matter what happens is the tenants that are going in. This isn't going to be another Wal-Mart strip center and if Costco, Cabelas, Crate & Barrell and Whole Foods are involved I will be very surprised if even at worst it isn't 10 times more visually appealing than the typical Wal-Mart Supercenter.

I too really liked the Tuscana plans and its unfortunate it wasn't proposed until shortly before the recession.

Based on the screenshots of the site plan posted earlier in this thread, it looks like there are some pedestrian areas between the buildings. There's the area called "The Promenade" that (I think) is for pedestrian traffic only and it looks like there are some other pedestrian areas as well. That's not to say that it couldn't have been better, but I think its at least somewhat more pedestrian-friendly than what we already have.

There's pedestrian areas in the PF Chang's/Target shopping center too. They lead from one mass of concerete parking to another.

My gripe is that we don't set high standards in OKC. Even Edmond does better than we do. Spring Creek is just a shopping area, but the landscaping and common areas are much more first class. Look at shopping areas like the Louisiana Boad Walk in Shreveport, or the Legends in KC, KS. Much more pedestrian friendly and much more of a destination.

It ten years, Patrick, I think you might be right and it might be a little bit of a disappointment as far as the layout is concerned. The newness will have worn off and a lot will have changed in OKC by then. But, if a Cabela's, Costco, another Whole Foods, Crate & Barrel and TopGolf (among others) will come into this shopping center, people are going to more excited about the stores coming that do not have a big presence here rather than the layout of the shopping center.

Crate an Barrell is looking at Nichols Hills Plaza and the pad on the NE corner of NW Expressway and Penn, and Whole Foods is looking at a location in Edmond, last I checked.

Crate an Barrell is looking at Nichols Hills Plaza and the pad on the NE corner of NW Expressway and Penn, and Whole Foods is looking at a location in Edmond, last I checked.

Crate & Barrel - Nobody's signing anything at NH Plaza until it changes hands, and I don't think PSM has enough parking to decrease spaces and increase GLA with a pad site.

Crate & Barrel - Nobody's signing anything at NH Plaza until it changes hands, and I don't think PSM has enough parking to decrease spaces and increase GLA with a pad site.

Sorry, I meant SW corner of NW Expressway and Penn. The old Salvation Army site.

Sorry, I meant SW corner of NW Expressway and Penn. The old Salvation Army site.

That's owned by Chesapeake as are all the homes on Barnes right behind.

Would have to be a major re-zoning initiative to allow a large retail use there and that hasn't even commenced.


This has been a rumor for years (along with the Container Store) and still that building and those homes are still sitting there.

I agree that it will bring in a Costco and maybe a Cabellas. But aside from that, it's nothing more than another suburban retail center, much like we already have near the area. I just don't see why there's all the excitement. It's an office complex, much like what we have west of May on Memorial. It's a hotel, probably not much different from what we have west of May on Memorial. It's suburban style apartment complexes, much of what we already have in the area. When I think of something exciting, I think of a for real lifestyle center, with retail/office/restaurant on the bottom floors and housing on the uper floors. Anyways, this will fit well in the area, as it's what's already there. What was exciting was the originally planned Tuscana north of Quail Springs Mall, but that's all fallen by the way side.


What he's saying though, is that this is not a good development. And he's not entirely wrong either.

Just because something is in the burbs, doesn't mean it needs to be a sea of surface parking. If this had any amount of urban principles applied, especially nearer the residential and smaller retail portions of the development, this place would have so much more appeal. In this case, it's less about fronting the streets and more about developing better pedestrian walkways.

Getting excited about the tenants is of course fine, but tenants don't make a development, they only anchor it. I understand having a sea of surface parking around Costco and MAYBE Cabela's, but the rest of the development, if it were more walkable, would make the development stronger in the long run.It is a suburban style shopping center in a suburban area, being built with suburban principles in mind, what a shock! I love this development and it will increase the already increasing tax revenue OKC is taking in.

If there was one thing I could change, I would add a 500 car parking garage or two near the apartments, but other than that, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this development period. It also seems to be that there will be way more ped friendly features on this suburban development than any other in OKC. It just seems some won't be happy unless every single car is parked in a structured building pushed right up against the street leading to stores pushed right up against the street.

That's owned by Chesapeake as are all the homes on Barnes right behind.

Would have to be a major re-zoning initiative to allow a large retail use there and that hasn't even commenced.


This has been a rumor for years (along with the Container Store) and still that building and those homes are still sitting there.

You're right. It's the Container Store that has looked at that site.

Something I found interesting, the owner of the Red Carpet carwash and gas station on the SE corner of NW Expressway and Penn has the property up for sale. It's zoned commercial.

You know, Chesapeake's new lack of interest in their retail sites is a big loss for OKC. I hope they'll sell these sites, and do so quickly.

I just can't see a Crate and Barrell locating on Memorial. Seems like this would fit better in the Nichols Hills area or in Edmond. But we'll see.

Something I found intereting, theowner of the Red Carpet carwash and gas station on the SE corner of NE Expressway and Penn has the property up for sale. It's zoned commercial.

Really? Wow - I'd like to see the asking price for that corner!

Something I found intereting, theowner of the Red Carpet carwash and gas station on the SE corner of NE Expressway and Penn...

It's NW Expressway.

Just kidding - it looks like you're having a Monday!

Crate & Barrel is doing mostly large, multi-level stores with furniture these days... And they need a lot of space and parking:

http://www.mallatmillenia.com/sites/mallatmillenia.com/files/imagecache/495x310/stores/photos/CrateBarrel.jpg

Out here (Cali) they've mainly been opening adjacent to large malls.

I personally just don't see the need to demand an urban feel in an area like Memorial that is not urban. Like it or not, this development, even with its flaws, represents a huge step up from the status quo in OKC. It may not be a full new urbanist community but it knocks the socks off of Belle Isle.

The demand for an urban feel (walkable is actually what we're looking for) is for the shoppers and for the shops. Driving around in your car all day in hectic shopping traffic is not appealing to anyone...we just do it because we have to. That's why malls are so popular: They are walkable...they "feel urban".

It would make this development more profitable if people parked their cars and then spent all day walking around the development. Instead, they'll park at Costco, get their stuff, drive over to the pond area to eat, maybe do some shopping, and then drive over to the concert venue. Everything in between those areas will be skipped.

This is far less about trying to create "urbanity for urbanity's sake". It's about making a development that makes the best use of the land in question, and that sets itself up for the greatest success.

You can't window shop when you drive, and window shopping does generate sales and interest in a way that commercials and word of mouth can't achieve. There is little to no opportunity for window shopping here.

And to top all that off, if you build this with more residential in mind you increase:
1. The amount of very nearby traffic that will most likely frequent these shops...especially the restaurants. A lot of people being able to walk to these restaurants from their residence would cut down on drunk driving.
2. The amount of people who may stay in the hotel (to see friends and family)
3. People develop relationships with their neighbors and create a sense of community that helps the overall feel of the complex, and can create external traffic in the neighborhood when a person leaves but wants to come back to their favorite restaurant/bar or to see friends, or to go to their favorite store/coffee shop.

As this place stands right now, there will be a bunch of specific destinations. Instead of people saying "I'm going to Chisolm Creek today" they'll say "I'm going to Costco and then stopping by Crate and Barrell."

It's wasted potential on the developer's part...money out of their pockets.

It's NW Expressway.

Just kidding - it looks like you're having a Monday!

That's funny, it went right past me. I didn't even see he typed it wrong!

Seriously, I can't think of too many corner lots that would be as valuable as that one. I'm sure he's thinking in terms of that sale taking care of the family for a good long while.

It's NW Expressway.

Just kidding - it looks like you're having a Monday!

Exactly. Sorry for the typos.

Red Carpet - Were they thrown in with the tenants-in-common fiasco at 50 Penn Place, or do they own the property fee simple? Either way it's a tiny parcel and I'm not sure what would be the highest & best use.

Red Carpet - Were they thrown in with the tenants-in-common fiasco at 50 Penn Place, or do they own the property fee simple? Either way it's a tiny parcel and I'm not sure what would be the highest & best use.

The own it but it's only .4 acres.

The own it but it's only .4 acres.

I didn't realize it's that small. Still an incredible location, but the size certainly limits the possibilities.

What he's saying though, is that this is not a good development. And he's not entirely wrong either.

Just because something is in the burbs, doesn't mean it needs to be a sea of surface parking. If this had any amount of urban principles applied, especially nearer the residential and smaller retail portions of the development, this place would have so much more appeal. In this case, it's less about fronting the streets and more about developing better pedestrian walkways.

Getting excited about the tenants is of course fine, but tenants don't make a development, they only anchor it. I understand having a sea of surface parking around Costco and MAYBE Cabela's, but the rest of the development, if it were more walkable, would make the development stronger in the long run.

I've given up on quality retail development in this city. Everything is terrible, literally. The abortion that is Belle Isle is laughably bad. Classen Curve surely didn't change anything.

So why am I excited by this development? Because as bad as it is, it is an improvement over the status quo.

2 story Kohl's?

I've given up on quality retail development in this city.
So why am I excited by this development? Because as bad as it is, it is an improvement over the status quo.

Good point. (yet consider, but only if you wish, of course . . .)

1) Technically, this development isn't in "this city" if you mean The City of Oklahoma City. It is in The 'Burb Sprawls of Retail Hell.

2) "quality" is as difficult to define as the "Fine" in the upcoming "Fine Wine at 7-Eleven, to be sold".

(ergo . . . =)

ALL existing traffic and drainage concerns need to be effectively addressed and solved BEFORE a single shovelful of dirt is turned. [3)]

(but, of course, i'm only dreaming =)

Just so we are clear, I'm not opposed to "progress" . . .
Except in terms of digging ever deeper "holes" in the "quality" of life.
For no apparent reason.

Sometimes--even as screwed up as it may be--the "Status Quo" is preferable to the "Status . . . Whoa!"

However, if there was a Buco di Beppo, included in The Master Plan, I might have second thoughts. =)

However, if there was a Buco di Beppo, included in The Master Plan, I might have second thoughts. =)

that was one of the first places i thought of when i heard about this development. also, california pizza kitchen and pappadeaux.

that was one of the first places i thought of when i heard about this development. also, california pizza kitchen and pappadeaux.All amazing restaurants, but most of all, Pappadeaux, I freaking love that place!

Uno's Pizza? Shells? Beef O'Brady's?

It is a suburban style shopping center in a suburban area, being built with suburban principles in mind, what a shock! I love this development and it will increase the already increasing tax revenue OKC is taking in.

If there was one thing I could change, I would add a 500 car parking garage or two near the apartments, but other than that, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this development period. It also seems to be that there will be way more ped friendly features on this suburban development than any other in OKC. It just seems some won't be happy unless every single car is parked in a structured building pushed right up against the street leading to stores pushed right up against the street.

More money generated in the burbs to keep subsidizing downtown.

More money generated in the burbs to keep subsidizing downtown.

Or: More money generated in the burbs that might finally start to put a dent in the outrageous costs for the increasing infrastructure that would not be a continuing deficit if there were greater density.

Really people, this isn't going to be an upscale retail center. It's going to be right in line with Memorial Square shopping center where PF Changs and Target are located. I wouldn't get your hopes up. We'll mabe get a Whataburger, another Panera Bread, a Taco Bell, a Taco Mayo, a few Hal Smith resaurants, maybe a few chains. Yes, I agree that getting a Costco and Cabellas will be nice, but I can't say that I'm jumping for joy at landing this project. I think it will be your typical Memorial Road development, with some chain restaurants and some stand alone chain stores.