There's as much of a chance of that happening to Nichols Hills residents as close as they are to the rough areas just north of that border so why solely base it on that?


The intersection of Memorial and Western is virtually no different from anywhere else in the metro in that it is nearby high-income areas in one direction, and low-income areas in the other. Even Oak Tree has that rathole south of Guthrie very nearby, and the 73170/Rivendell area (metro's highest income ZIP) is surrounded by the greater south side.

One thing that has kept upscale retailers out, more than backward laws, is that our city is very socioeconomically spread out. The wealthy aren't cloistered in one direction or along one road (ie., North Dallas, which at points seems as narrow and thin as just one road all the way up to Frisco).

Good points. I don't have any statistical data, but the area at Memorial & Penn sure seems to be headed downhill over the past several years. Surely, I'm not alone in that feeling, am I?

Good points. I don't have any statistical data, but the area at Memorial & Penn sure seems to be headed downhill over the past several years. Surely, I'm not alone in that feeling, am I?

Its the apartments at Penn and 122nd, especially the ones in the east side. That area really isn't a bad area with the exception of those apartment complexes.

I am very excited for Main Event. Seems a lot more fun than Dave and Buster's and also closer to me!

Does Main Event serve alcohol? That's one thing that sets Dave & Busters apart from others that do the same concept.

Good points. I don't have any statistical data, but the area at Memorial & Penn sure seems to be headed downhill over the past several years. Surely, I'm not alone in that feeling, am I?

Well, the only thing I can think of is that I personally avoid the area like the plague because the traffic is horrendus and will be even worse once this development opens for business--which is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that they need to turn Memorial into 3 lanes on each side with those third lanes turning into right turn only lanes about 500 feet away from the intersections. But, as far as business goes? I haven't seen any decline in the area. Food joints seem to be about the only new businesses going in the last few years but like Pete said, national retail took a huge hit and is just getting back up to par, so if there's been a decline, that's beyond my experience.


Does Main Event serve alcohol? That's one thing that sets Dave & Busters apart from others that do the same concept.

In the 'Main Event' thread, there are pics from another location and it has a very nice full service bar.

Does Main Event serve alcohol? That's one thing that sets Dave & Busters apart from others that do the same concept.

Yes, they have a huge bar area.

I have watched this thread grow, and I'm still learning about this project, but it looks to be another strip mall letdown. This wreaks of University North Park.

I hope this turns out to be OKC's first true lifestyle center..with these incredible retailers, they should go back to the drawing board and re-plan this development. This should be done right; give us something that will be an OKC landmark for decades to come.

Not another Mayfair Village or Belle Isle or other faded strip malls.

To be fair, as excited as people around here get about retail chains, it's not common that they change their MO to improve the aesthetic or the quality of life for some distant market. These guys will give the developer a number that works for them and then the developer has to decide how much value add he can afford and still hit the target rents. And outside of some of their urban locations, most of these retailers are in plug and play developments when in the suburbs. Most would only force upgrades in an area that already had an established upscale aesthetic. Memorial Road really doesn't fit that description.

Well, the only thing I can think of is that I personally avoid the area like the plague because the traffic is horrendus and will be even worse once this development opens for business--which is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that they need to turn Memorial into 3 lanes on each side with those third lanes turning into right turn only lanes about 500 feet away from the intersections. But, as far as business goes? I haven't seen any decline in the area. Food joints seem to be about the only new businesses going in the last few years but like Pete said, national retail took a huge hit and is just getting back up to par, so if there's been a decline, that's beyond my experience.



In the 'Main Event' thread, there are pics from another location and it has a very nice full service bar.

got stuck at the bottom of page 5...which tends not to be seen in fast moving threads!

Man, this thread really blew up today...

H and M and Von Maur in quail springs are gonna be pretty sweet. Now if Only quail had Belk too..

Man, this thread really blew up today...

No joke.

This might be why.


http://www.koco.com/news/money/costco-cabelas-among-stores-rumored-to-be-coming-to-metro/-/9843810/22493144/-/w1q3bmz/-/index.html

http://kfor.com/2013/10/17/national-stores-eyeing-north-oklahoma-city/

This reminds me a lot of the Legends area in Kansas City, with the retail, movie theater, water fall, some restaurants. The stores in this just won't be in a outlet mall format. But there is a lot of similarities.

We are just missing the race track and casino. You could mention the Great Wolf Lodge too.

I was thinking the same thing. I was back in KC a few weeks ago and I drove by Legends on the way to and from the airport, and I couldn't help but think that an area like that in OKC somewhere outside the city core would be really cool. It would be even cooler if there was a stadium like Sporting Park as well ;)

I was thinking the same thing. I was back in KC a few weeks ago and I drove by Legends on the way to and from the airport, and I couldn't help but think that an area like that in OKC somewhere outside the city core would be really cool. It would be even cooler if there was a stadium like Sporting Park as well ;)

Legends Softball Complex is right around the corner!

Good points. I don't have any statistical data, but the area at Memorial & Penn sure seems to be headed downhill over the past several years. Surely, I'm not alone in that feeling, am I?

You're not, i agree wholeheartedly. That area, like the rest of OKC outside downtown and historic neighborhoods, is in a sprawl cycle where the older it gets, the more it goes downhill. Some of those apartments are 30 years old.

And of course there's the matter that we allowed the ESFHS district to be completely inundated w cheaply built apartments...

KOCO is about to talk about this.

I hope you are wrong, but this is what I fear given the retail track record in this city. The one thing this development has going for it is the involvement of Costco and the fact that Wal-Mart is already so close at Memorial and Penn. Because of that, there is no chance Wal-Mart could become an anchor for this development, meaning it already stands a better chance than Belle Isle.

That's the thing, is our depressing retail track record, which Classen Curve really just kept going.

I am not a negative nancy. I am hugely optimistic about OKC, I just have high standards that I want us to be living up to. We have had this track record thing going my whole life though..

I have even seen two failed prior lifestyle developments for this site, and several more just down Memorial..Tuscana, S side of Mem/May, down at Rockwell, down at Council, and so on.

Way, way too many apartments -- mostly cheapos -- were built at 122nd & Penn and around QS in the 1980's, mainly because the economy went into a slump and there were lots more renters than home buyers and certainly nobody was building more retail and office space.

Just horrific lack of planning by the City of OKC which merely rubber-stamps anything people want to build without taking any sort of bigger picture view.


However, now that things are raging, new, quality development can start filling in a lot of the holes and start to overshadow the apartment ghettos.

Way, way too many apartments -- mostly cheapos -- were built at 122nd & Penn and around QS in the 1980's, mainly because the economy went into a slump and there were lots more renters than home buyers and certainly nobody was building more retail and office space.

Just horrific lack of planning by the City of OKC which merely rubber-stamps anything people want to build without taking any sort of bigger picture view.


However, now that things are raging, new, quality development can start filling in a lot of the holes and start to overshadow the apartment ghettos.

Sprawl, segregated land use, poor bldg standards, and so on...just another day at the office for us...

I always wonder how the Quail Creek neighborhood is holding up. That was one of the finer square miles of the city before I went off for college...

Way, way too many apartments -- mostly cheapos -- were built at 122nd & Penn and around QS in the 1980's, mainly because the economy went into a slump and there were lots more renters than home buyers and certainly nobody was building more retail and office space.

Just horrific lack of planning by the City of OKC which merely rubber-stamps anything people want to build without taking any sort of bigger picture view.


However, now that things are raging, new, quality development can start filling in a lot of the holes and start to overshadow the apartment ghettos.


I concur with this statement. Yeah, 122nd & Penn is bad but it's not NW 10th St, where there are empty run down apartments that homeless people take refuge in or vandals set ablaze. It's still a vibrant part of the city. I've lived in both Heritage Park and Highland Ridge. It's only scary for those of you that have never lived there. Never had anything stolen when I lived there and it's really about how you flaunt it. If you're blaring your stereo and living out loud, people take notice and do harm to you.

As for apartment lifestyle, there are tons of recently built rentals along the Memorial corridor that are not cheap and have increased the wealth in the area. With that said, there's plenty of $ to go around.

Sprawl, segregated land use, poor bldg standards, and so on...just another day at the office for us...

I always wonder how the Quail Creek neighborhood is holding up. That was one of the finer square miles of the city before I went off for college...

It's still a fine neighborhood. Drove through very recently.

Sprawl, segregated land use, poor bldg standards, and so on...just another day at the office for us...

I always wonder how the Quail Creek neighborhood is holding up. That was one of the finer square miles of the city before I went off for college...

Quail Creek has held up fine but not the finest in the area. And, it covers more than a square mile when you factor in south Quail, the little brother of the two.

I thought part of modern urbanism promoted dense nodes throughout larger cities with already existing spread population. This is really kind of infill. There is a great deal of housing all around this area and if anything, this will pull people in from the fringes rather than keep pushing them out. This will be a very popular development. I personally know one of the developers of this and he runs a quality organization that tries to do the right things.

The newer stuff is all decent but almost everything built in the 80's is crap.

When will the City learn??

You think the Lyrewood area would have clearly demonstrated that that high of apartment concentration -- even in a good area -- will eventually go very far south.

When those Lyrewood apartments were built, PC schools were the best in the state and the neighborhood was quite good for a while. But then newer stuff was built further out (mainly along Memorial), those complexes took a big nose dive and that whole situation is a big reason why that area of town has gone way down hill.


When they first built those apartments at 122nd & Penn, I had a lot of friends that lived in them -- all professional types. But in less than two decades that whole area became dire and it seems to be getting worse all the time.

This sort of thing really erodes the quality of living in Oklahoma City yet absolutely no one takes any initiative to try and change our planning laws.

Quail Creek has held up fine but not the finest in the area. And, it covers more than a square mile when you factor in south Quail, the little brother of the two.

I thought part of modern urbanism promoted dense nodes throughout larger cities with already existing spread population. This is really kind of infill. There is a great deal of housing all around this area and if anything, this will pull people in from the fringes rather than keep pushing them out. This will be a very popular development. I personally know one of the developers of this and he runs a quality organization that tries to do the right things.

With 122nd as the dividing line, Quail Creek North (which contains the golf club) is still extremely nice, near or equivalent to Oak Tree in Edmond. Quail Creek South has slipped a little and has some rough spots, but overall is still pretty nice.

Before buying in Mesta Park last year, I looked in Quail Creek and that was my perception.

And the north half of QC North is in the Edmond school district, which helps considerably.

Quail Creek has held up fine but not the finest in the area. And, it covers more than a square mile when you factor in south Quail, the little brother of the two.

I thought part of modern urbanism promoted dense nodes throughout larger cities with already existing spread population. This is really kind of infill. There is a great deal of housing all around this area and if anything, this will pull people in from the fringes rather than keep pushing them out. This will be a very popular development. I personally know one of the developers of this and he runs a quality organization that tries to do the right things.

Well then I look forward to the kind of development OKC needs here..

The newer stuff is all decent but almost everything built in the 80's is crap.

When will the City learn??

You think the Lyrewood area would have clearly demonstrated that that high of apartment concentration -- even in a good area -- will eventually go very far south.

When those Lyrewood apartments were built, PC schools were the best in the state and the neighborhood was quite good for a while. But then newer stuff was built further out (mainly along Memorial), those complexes took a big nose dive and that whole situation is a big reason why that area of town has gone way down hill.


When they first built those apartments at 122nd & Penn, I had a lot of friends that lived in them -- all professional types. But in less than two decades that whole area became dire and it seems to be getting worse all the time.

This sort of thing really erodes the quality of living in Oklahoma City yet absolutely no one takes any initiative to try and change our planning laws.

What kind of changes would we need to see to prevent issues like what we are currently seeing at 122nd and Penn and the numerous other patches of ghetto in otherwise good development across the metro?

What kind of changes would we need to see to prevent issues like what we are currently seeing at 122nd and Penn and the numerous other patches of ghetto in otherwise good development across the metro?

Pretty sure OKC isn't allowing crap like that to be built anymore and secondly, just can't have management companies come in and do nothing with their properties and also should raise rental rates and not allow Section 8 residents.

My parents live in North Quail Creek and it hasn't gone downhill one iota. It's a strong neighborhood with the state's largest homeowners association. Quail Creek CC is thriving and Quail Creek Elementary is one of the very best, if not the best, traditional schools in the OKC Public School District. Not worried about Quail Creek, although the NW 122 corridor could use better, more uniform fences. Personal rant.

Pretty sure OKC isn't allowing crap like that to be built anymore and secondly, just can't have management companies come in and do nothing with their properties and also should raise rental rates and not allow Section 8 residents.

I agree, but I don't think the city can legally force those apartment complex owners to raise their rent. I don't think there really is much that can be done at this point.

Pretty sure OKC isn't allowing crap like that to be built anymore and secondly, just can't have management companies come in and do nothing with their properties and also should raise rental rates and not allow Section 8 residents.

First of all, do you really think we stopped building crap?!? Wow

Secondly, there are federal housing discrimination laws that prevent communities from codifying...housing discrimination (or else they would).

First of all, do you really think we stopped building crap?!? Wow

Secondly, there are federal housing discrimination laws that prevent communities from codifying...housing discrimination (or else they would).

Even the worst stuff being built today is still well above what was being built in OKC back in the 1980s. One example: As bad as Belle Isle is compared to the standard in other cities, it definitely beats the West Park shopping center at 63rd and MacArthur.

Good digging, my friend.

While there for the game, I was in Dallas last weekend and had a chance to drive around quite a bit. Just like in OKC, many of the apartments that were built in the 70s and 80s are getting run down. The difference is that in Dallas, the values of those complexes are such and the demand for quality apartments seems to be such that it is economically viable to tear down the older apartments and build new, nicer ones. Case in point is the southern part of what was called "The Village" in the near-north central part of Dallas. Though the apartments are still fairly nice, the ones on the southern end have been torn down and a new 3-5 story complex is going up. I've noticed a lot of this in the area east of Central and south of LBJ. Land in Dallas is scarce and this seems to justify the reconstruction going on. OKC still has a lot of land that is undeveloped inside the Kilpatrick. How can OKC come up with some incentives to get developers to RE-develop some of these decaying complexes?

I can't even fathom the traffic snarls this will cause one day along the Penn to Western corridor, especially at Christmas. The city has no idea, or if they do, I doubt they are going to be proactive about it. OTA extended their original widening contract and lengthen the exit lanes just to handle the traffic there now, can't imagine the issues in a few years. Imagine trying to exit the KTP in any direction and get over to the turn lane. It's impossible now since there is not enough room to get over. I think someone mentioned widening Memorial......ditto that.

[QUOTE=Pete;696830]Way, way too many apartments -- mostly cheapos -- were built at 122nd & Penn and around QS in the 1980's, mainly because the economy went into a slump and there were lots more renters than home buyers and certainly nobody was building more retail and office space.

Just horrific lack of planning by the City of OKC which merely rubber-stamps anything people want to build without taking any sort of bigger picture view.


How many have seen all the apartments going in on north Rockwell all around the new Deer Creek grade school? Will this corridor be the 122nd and Penn in 2035 when newer developments grow as far north as Kingfisher? I ask that tongue-in-cheek........

First of all, do you really think we stopped building crap?!? Wow

Secondly, there are federal housing discrimination laws that prevent communities from codifying...housing discrimination (or else they would).

Wow.... Really WOW. Calm down Sparty. You're not understanding anything I'm saying. First off as much as you love the best for OKC...you're in Cleveland and obviously haven't stepped foot anywhere outside of downtown since you went to college so don't assume you know what the frick you're talking about.

Secondly, I didn't say they weren't still building crap but what they've built recently within a half mile of or along the Memorial corridor is far better than the trash that is at NW 122nd & Penn that May have been tha shiznit in 1985!

Thirdly, you can be about as annoying as OKVision4U sometimes but at least we know you have a pedigree in these kind of things but that doesn't mean you knock down the common mans opinion!

Did not know OKC was the 7th fastest growing city? http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=newssearch&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQqQIoADAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.news9.com%2Fstory%2F23723829% 2Fhuge-retail-development-rumored-in-nw-okc&ei=651gUtayD8fIyAGD0ICYDg&usg=AFQjCNG9mLkaWf9F_538jBWMH4BY3At8YQ

Wow.... Really WOW. Calm down Sparty. You're not understanding anything I'm saying. First off as much as you love the best for OKC...you're in Cleveland and obviously haven't stepped foot anywhere outside of downtown since you went to college so don't assume you know what the frick you're talking about.

Secondly, I didn't say they weren't still building crap but what they've built recently within a half mile of or along the Memorial corridor is far better than the trash that is at NW 122nd & Penn that May have been tha shiznit in 1985!

Thirdly, you can be about as annoying as OKVision4U sometimes but at least we know you have a pedigree in these kind of things but that doesn't mean you knock down the common mans opinion!

You get psychotic when you get angry. I am just delivering a public service announcement that real estate development isn't done to a very high standard in OKC. You don't have to shoot me the usual creepy private messages with weird, encrypted, unintelligible insults. I'm just saying this here in case I go missing ;P

I was thinking the same thing. I was back in KC a few weeks ago and I drove by Legends on the way to and from the airport, and I couldn't help but think that an area like that in OKC somewhere outside the city core would be really cool. It would be even cooler if there was a stadium like Sporting Park as well ;)

I agree with this. I love Legends. I especially liked it five years ago or so when the tenants were all regular retail stores. They made a big shift and went outlet and re-branded the whole thing. That kind of ruined it for me, but I love the complex.

Nevermind. I looked at the site plan on the Chisholm Creek website and it shows that building to be over 100,000 sf.
The new ones here in Denver are around that size (I think 96K and 109K), they have gone away from the superstore concept like the store in Buda (Austin area) which is about 180,000 sf.


As much as I love this concept and think OKC is way overdue for such a district, I too have my doubts. I've heard for years that Costco would love to come to OKC, but the liquor laws are what keep them from pulling the trigger. Until we see real change to those laws, I doubt they'll make that move.

And while this area of town certainly has the population to support such a money-hungry district, does anyone have concerns about how the area south of it will impact it's popularity? I'd predict safety & theft being a pretty big issue.
Read through the Costco thread, they are in a lot of markets that have liquor laws similar to Oklahoma. Here in Colorado they only have 3.2 beer. The Sam's here have the adjacent liquor store (leased to a local, independent operator) like the Costco stores in Austin, they had beer/wine in the store there and liquor in the separate but adjacent store.


Does Main Event serve alcohol? That's one thing that sets Dave & Busters apart from others that do the same concept.
The one in Austin has a full bar.


The newer stuff is all decent but almost everything built in the 80's is crap.

When will the City learn??

You think the Lyrewood area would have clearly demonstrated that that high of apartment concentration -- even in a good area -- will eventually go very far south.

When those Lyrewood apartments were built, PC schools were the best in the state and the neighborhood was quite good for a while. But then newer stuff was built further out (mainly along Memorial), those complexes took a big nose dive and that whole situation is a big reason why that area of town has gone way down hill.


When they first built those apartments at 122nd & Penn, I had a lot of friends that lived in them -- all professional types. But in less than two decades that whole area became dire and it seems to be getting worse all the time.

This sort of thing really erodes the quality of living in Oklahoma City yet absolutely no one takes any initiative to try and change our planning laws.
A lot of that is driven by NIMBYism and the desire not to have apartments in the area. OKC did have size limits on complexes, when I moved back from Dallas in 1993 I lived in Northgreen (which became Lincoln Greens) and they had two clubhouses, pools, etc. because at one time there was a limit on units in a single development but (evidently) no limits on proximity. That is why there was Heather Ridge/Heather Glen, Pinehurst/Silver Tree (I think) at 122nd & MacArthur. Eventually that was recinded and they were allowed to combine. Unfortunately the NIMBYs never mearn and their council reps don't either.


While there for the game, I was in Dallas last weekend and had a chance to drive around quite a bit. Just like in OKC, many of the apartments that were built in the 70s and 80s are getting run down. The difference is that in Dallas, the values of those complexes are such and the demand for quality apartments seems to be such that it is economically viable to tear down the older apartments and build new, nicer ones. Case in point is the southern part of what was called "The Village" in the near-north central part of Dallas. Though the apartments are still fairly nice, the ones on the southern end have been torn down and a new 3-5 story complex is going up. I've noticed a lot of this in the area east of Central and south of LBJ. Land in Dallas is scarce and this seems to justify the reconstruction going on. OKC still has a lot of land that is undeveloped inside the Kilpatrick. How can OKC come up with some incentives to get developers to RE-develop some of these decaying complexes?
I looked at The Village when I moved there in 1991, ended up at Snug Harbor at 635 & Forest Lane. Went back a few years after I moved back to OKC and most of those between 635 and Audelia had gone down hill and crime was a problem. When I lived in the area the older ones around Greenville & Park Lane were the "bad ones". The Village has location working for it and they did seem to maintain them pretty well.

You get psychotic when you get angry. I am just delivering a public service announcement that real estate development isn't done to a very high standard in OKC. You don't have to shoot me the usual creepy private messages with weird, encrypted, unintelligible insults. I'm just saying this here in case I go missing ;P

If you lived here and went to the public get togethers you wouldn't speak like an idiot.

Peeps I sent him a private message cause I didn't want to insult his intelligence with regard to a famous line from a classic movie. That being 'Negative Ghost Rider...'. Apparently he was clueless as to where that came from. Come on now...

Steve is on twitter saying that "chat sites" have blindly accepted a website as proof that any if this will happen. Seems a tad but unhappy.

For someone harping on about journalistic integrity and getting facts verified, Steve is completely wrong.

For starters, none of our info came from a website other than the one healthplex rendering.

He made about 10 tweets tonight trying to discredit what was in the original post.

Braums is on the north side of Memorial.

LOL, that was an inside joke between me and RM based on a conversation we had long ago.

Steve is on twitter saying that "chat sites" have blindly accepted a website as proof that any if this will happen. Seems a tad but unhappy.

Steve is damn good at his job, and it's really quite amazing what he is able to report and how quickly he reports it.

That being said, real journalism, like what Steve does...is quite frankly boring...and I don't think that we're going to see this type of journalism continue to be successful at being first to break major stories. Steve does a great job of realizing this and he frequently finds tidbits of information that we would otherwise not know until much further down the road...but he's a rare breed, and an overwhelming number of journalists today are not nearly as skilled nor ethical as he: So not only do we not care because they're slow, and dry, and no dialogue exists...they also cheat just as often and get crap wrong all the time.

Now If most of this falls through...No Costco, Cabelas, Rustic, et. al. then Pete's wagering of his brand and the brand of this forum in the eyes of whoever has read this thread could end in a bust. Many could decide to doubt Pete's/OKCTalk's information, and if it were bad enough, Pete could potentially lose sources that reveal the info that he is enabled to frequently distribute as a non-connected 3rd party.

But even were that to happen: Who cares? Those of us involved enough know how frequently Pete and OKC Talk are on the money. Even were this to fall through, this forum would still be a better source than the average journalist who jumps the gun and doles out inaccuracies, because we can talk in real time about what's going on. And I think it's this lack of consequence that probably bothers Steve more than anything. Even if Pete misses on this one, OKCTalk will still be a resounding success, and until major inaccuracy becomes a pattern with Pete, we will all still trust what he has to say unless we know better (in which case, discussion usually bleeds out the real details).

However, that Pete has gone out on a limb, knowing how much he cares about OKCTalk's brand (and maybe even his own reputation), tells me that this is probably pretty damn solid.

But I want to repeat. We're lucky to have Steve...he's a damn brilliant journalist, and his commitment to detail will easily keep him gainfully employed in his traditional forms for a very long time. And good on him.

Yeah, I heard the developer wasn't too happy about all this -- which is pretty much another confirmation.


It's a fine line because we certainly don't want to get in the way of leasing deals but information wants to be free and people want to know about these things.

And really, this is just a testament to all the connected people on this site. I receive so much great info from dozens of people that have various connections around town.


BTW, I heard Cabela's may be making a press release very soon about coming to OKC. This has happened several times when we get something out and then there is a scramble to make an official announcement.

Pete, I received an email from a Chamber source with the exact same information before I saw your initial post so I can't imagine that it's too big of a problem.

I will point out that already two things I reported on -- Main Event and the healthplex -- have been confirmed in just the last two days.

I also understand that Cabela's has put out at least an internal company communication about coming to OKC.


Many times, when we break information like this it forces the various parties involved to come out with official statements, including OPUBCO itself, which called a rushed employee meeting after we were the first to report that their properties had been sold to American Fidelity.


I will also say that Steve is making a bunch of allegations and assumptions without even contacting me, and we talk relatively frequently. He assumed that we got all this off the Chisholm Creek website, which we absolutely did not. As I stated in the very first line in the very first post on this thread, this information came from trusted sources in real estate, construction and economic development and I knew most of this for some time and waited to post it until I heard the same thing from several people. And since the first post I HAVE been in communication with the Chisholm Creek people.

I stand by the track record of the things we have first reported on this site.

And BTW, the Oklahoman and other traditional journalists report things all the time that never come to pass. If we all want to wait until something actually opens for business, there wouldn't be much need for reporting at all.

Steve is great. But he is very immature at times, this being one of those times. Which is unfortunate...

Also, unless it was reported by him or the Oklahoman, it's just rumors and poorly researched. In his mind anyway. He is the all knowing of OKC and no one can report on the city except for him.

He made about 10 tweets tonight trying to discredit what was in the original post.

.... and any adult with even a basic understanding of human psychology knows why he felt the need to do so. Obligatory: Steve is a great journalist and even greater person and blah blah blah... He's also human.

He'll say he was doing no such thing... merely pointing out the fact that this isn't a "done deal". Obvious, but he pointed it out. It isn't wisdom to point out that plans change. That's common sense. No one has said anything different. Steve reports on and intimates concerning things that may or may not come to pass all of the time. Doesn't constitute poor journalism on his part... same applies to Pete.

Don't let this thread go south for no reason. One man already defended his profession and the ethical essence that he believes rides alongside of it... albeit passively and ambiguously. The "high ground" in this back and forth has already be seized. You can take it by force or he can come down on his own. I don't see him coming down and I don't want to read about the "attempted force" for two weeks before we start actually talking about this possible and exciting development again. Let it be.

Personally, I don't think Pete would post information that may be wrong and Pete has his very credible sources. Pete's free throw percentage on upcoming projects sits at probably 89%. That's pretty darn good for a guy that lives in Cali!

Can someone provide me a link or direct quotes from what Steve had said? I don't have a Twitter account, so that's why I ask.

Thanks in advance for anyone who does

https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer

I think Pete just miffed Steve in twitterland, its all so silly...

But really, who cares about suburban development

Steve and I are friends and share information frequently.

And we are both passionate about our respective mediums. :)

Completely disagree. Every major upscale chain has far exceeded expectations in sales, enough that Costco is apparently near closing a deal inspite of our ridiculous liquor laws.

In addition to the successes previously mentioned, Von Maur, nordstrom rack, anthropology, H&M (kind upscale I guess), and several other upscale stores in the outlet mall are open or are opening soon. Anyone have an idea of how well Nordstrom rack is doing so far? I assume we won't have anything concrete until the end of the quarter but it's always packed.

Yes, Chesepeake had to beg and pay Whole Foods to open up here and while Tulsa has opened up another Whole Foods, OKC is still waiting on their second location. Tulsa got The Fresh Market before us. They look at OKC, look at our statistics and demographics and tend to pass over us. We have been well overdue for many new retail. Walmart still owns some absurd ammount of the grocery share. A few major more upscale retail moves in and they have done well, I would expect more for a city of this magnitude. Perhaos a downtown upscale shopping and better grocery stores. This suburban stuff is nice but lets be real here. OKc still has a ways to catch up.

I am however thrilled that Costco is coming. I will be more thrilled when they officially make an announcement. Crate and Barrel is also coming according to Pete, which is really nice. I hope trader joes comes and I also hope OKC continues to attract more upscale retail. I am really excited at what has happened recently and hope it continues.

Yes, Chesepeake had to beg and pay Whole Foods to open up here and while Tulsa has opened up another Whole Foods, OKC is still waiting on their second location. Tulsa got The Fresh Market before us. They look at OKC, look at our statistics and demographics and tend to pass over us. We have been well overdue for many new retail. Walmart still owns some absurd ammount of the grocery share. A few major more upscale retail moves in and they have done well, I would expect more for a city of this magnitude. Perhaos a downtown upscale shopping and better grocery stores. This suburban stuff is nice but lets be real here. OKc still has a ways to catch up.

I am however thrilled that Costco is coming. I will be more thrilled when they officially make an announcement. Crate and Barrel is also coming according to Pete, which is really nice. I hope trader joes comes and I also hope OKC continues to attract more upscale retail. I am really excited at what has happened recently and hope it continues.Tulsa is done son, they are beneath us and a whim in our shadow.

Pretty sure OKC isn't allowing crap like that to be built anymore and secondly, just can't have management companies come in and do nothing with their properties and also should raise rental rates and not allow Section 8 residents.

It's easier said then done. Housing laws prevent drastic increases in rent. I think the most they go up is $25-$50 at each lease renewal. To get the $50 they have to make upgrade to your unit and/or the property itself. The only way I have ever seen complexes cleaned up is for the property manager or company to shut down the complex as a whole, remodel and reopen.

Y Walmart still owns some absurd ammount of the grocery share. A few major more upscale retail moves in and they have done well, I would expect more for a city of this magnitude. Perhaos a downtown upscale shopping and better grocery stores. This suburban stuff is nice but lets be real here. OKc still has a ways to catch up.


That is a common misconception about OKC. Walmart may have physical presence but, they do not rule the grocery market for most families anymore. Walmart is expensive to shop on most items anymore. We are finding better deals at Buy For Less and Crest here in Midwest City. The only thing we shop for at Walmart anymore is items for our toddler. We might spend barely $20 on that stuff each month.

LOL, that was an inside joke between me and RM based on a conversation we had long ago.

You, Sir, have an excellent memory. =)
One thing about all this: Traffic will be so snarled that EVERYTHING will have to be within walking distance of my house on account of all of the gridlocked automobiles that have been abandoned after a day or two of being stuck in traffic.

Steve and I are friends and share information frequently.

And we are both passionate about our respective mediums. :)

http://myweb.stedwards.edu/aarella3/fortune.jpg
("eenie meanie chili beanie the spirits are about to speak . . .")