No matter how much it costs it will be cheaper than a DUI...or worse.

No matter how much it costs it will be cheaper than a DUI...or worse.

True, even a limo at beck and call for ten hours is a fair price in comparison to even mild fairly bad endings.

I had mentioned previously that I signed up to be a Uber driver here in Los Angeles, more out of curiosity than anything else.

I usually throw a huge party on NYE but this year decided against it, and without any awesome plans for the big night (apart from standing around in a house or bar and wondering why I should be soooo excited) I decided to succumb to Uber's barrage of emails and texts begging for drivers and promising up to $1,000 in one night.

Let's just say it was a very interesting experience. :)


Where to start... First of all, the riders -- apart from one youngish family -- were quite young. I'd say everyone was under 30, which is clearly the Uber demographic.

Almost everyone wanted to know all the details.... Is this your car? How do you get paid? How much will you make in one night?

I'd also say that even though Uber has been in L.A. for a while, most people had never used it or just barely used it. Just goes to show how much room this company (and Lyft and Sidecar) has to grow. Scary if you think about it!


Of course early on everyone was happy and friendly and polite but as the night wore on, things got pretty messy. A couple of carloads of dudes were just completely smashed (before midnight) and one group of young women were in full-on drama mode with another friend we had to go pick up.

After midnight, people would see me stopped and looking for the rider (very hard to find the exact person at night in a bar district or hotel driveway) and beg me to drive them somewhere -- but of course, that's not the way the system works and I wanted to honor that.

Around 1:30 I picked up a young couple at a hotel and this other, random young woman was so hammered she just got in the car with them and was so out of it couldn't comprehend that I was not her driver and I just couldn't take her somewhere. But then I decided just to take her anyway as I was worried about her general state and didn't want to fight with a drunkard.

But after I dropped off the couple, it became clear she wasn't drunk... She was completely wacked out on something and was incoherent and couldn't/wouldn't tell me where she lived and I decided just to take her back to the hotel. Fortunately, she got out of the car when we arrived and I decided to call it a night.


In the end, I don't think this will be that profitable even with their "surge" pricing in effect most the night. I ended up generating about $700 in fares over about 7 hours and Uber takes half (!) and also takes half (!) of your tips. The latter practice seems particularly greedy and has drawn some lawsuits.

In fact, taking 52% of the fare seems a bit ridiculous as well. They don't provide anything; it's your car, your gas, your time and aggravation.

Their promotion of constant fares for this particular night also proved to be inflated. I had a couple of hours with almost zero action. So, now when I get their messages about HUGE DEMAND IN HOLLYWOOD!! TOP DOLLAR POSSIBLE! I'll take it with a grain of salt.


Also, one very bad thing about driving for Uber in a city like L.A. is that it more often than not took forever to connect with the person you are trying to pick up. They just provide an address but you have no idea if it's a hotel, bar, etc. So, you burn a lot of valuable driving time searching/waiting. (You don't start charging until everyone is in the car and you are moving.)

They also don't provide you their phone number for calling or texting; it's routed through the Uber system where all calls and texts go through their main number, which is smart so after the trip neither party has the contact info for the other. But frequently, you just get dumped into Uber voicemail and when you text, you hope the person is getting it, not the last person you just dropped off. Since the phone number is always the same, you never really know.

And of course 95% of the time -- even though you send a message through the system that you are arriving and they had been provided your ETA by the system -- the person/people are not close to ready and you have to cruise around, texting and calling and hoping they respond.

Another thing: Uber provides you an iPhone 4 with their driver app, but no GPS nav software. I asked them if I could merely install their software on my iPhone but they politely said no. So, I have to use their phone to field the fares and conduct Uber business, then carry my phone for navigation, texting, calling, etc. Their phone is locked down to everything but Uber. It's a big pain having to deal with two phones while driving; you also have to keep both charged as the GPS drains batteries pretty quickly.


I fully realize I am not the profile of someone who drives for Uber and that NYE is a very unusual time, but I think most of these issues would be common any evening, at least in a bigger city.

I'm not sure I'll do any more driving for them but I will definitely use them as a rider.

Interesting to hear your side as a driver, Pete. Didn't know about those quirks - that you just dial the uber number to get in touch with a rider. Less than optimal for sure - because as a rider it sure seems like you get the driver's actual number. Should go both ways IMO.

Also - I thought that Uber keeps 20% of the fares? Had no idea it was 50/50. If so, that's completely insane and really would make me question if it's worth it. And 50% of tips too? Weird, because aren't Uber tips purely discretionary and in cash? Do Lyft/Sidecar do the same thing? I swear I saw something about Lyft coming to OKC too. I wonder if their terms are better if some drivers will defect. I saw an article about Uber offering free tanks of gas to drivers who switched to Uber from Lyft in SF.

Interesting to hear your side as a driver, Pete. Didn't know about those quirks - that you just dial the uber number to get in touch with a rider. Less than optimal for sure - because as a rider it sure seems like you get the driver's actual number. Should go both ways IMO.

Also - I thought that Uber keeps 20% of the fares? Had no idea it was 50/50. If so, that's completely insane and really would make me question if it's worth it. And 50% of tips too? Weird, because aren't Uber tips purely discretionary and in cash? Do Lyft/Sidecar do the same thing? I swear I saw something about Lyft coming to OKC too. I wonder if their terms are better if some drivers will defect. I saw an article about Uber offering free tanks of gas to drivers who switched to Uber from Lyft in SF.

Everything with Uber is through the app -- no money changes hands between driver and rider.

When you set up Uber as a rider, they ask you to enter a tip percentage and I believe it defaults to 15%. So, that is just automatically added to the charge without any action by either party.

Not sure how Lyft handles it but I believe it's very similar. I am actually a registered driver with Lyft as well but have never done anything with it. I was more interested in Uber because it was coming to OKC and I wanted to learn more so I could share.

One thing that is different about Lyft is they ask you to put this silly pink mustache on your grill when driving. It would certainly aid riders in finding you, but I wouldn't be caught dead with that thing on my car. With Uber, there is nothing to indicate you are a driver, which I strong prefer as there may be nights where I merely flip on the driver service after being out socially. Help to pay for an evening out and all that.

I haven't been paid yet by Uber so I'm not 100% sure of those percentages.

They hold your money for over a week (another smart money-maker on their part, because they are paid the instant a ride finishes) and I'll report back when I get my first payment.

Hope I'm wrong about the percentages -- I'll know soon.

Even though they do their best to advise riders of surge pricing, I made it point to tell pretty much everyone I picked up that the charge would likely be higher and that I had nothing to do with setting that. A couple of times, people just said, "wow, let me out here -- I don't want to get gouged". Completely understood even though they were given ample notice by Uber and nobody was upset either way.


As far as the phone, perhaps it's only the riders that can see the real number? I did get a call from an early fare later in the night but all the calls and texts came from the same central number and often went to Uber voicemail. This could be a market-by-market difference, as there are others as well. They may be more careful in a city like LA versus OKC.

Some other Uber driver ramblings...

For the most part, I really enjoyed meeting the people I drove.

In fact, it's kind of an intimate situation in some ways, as you have generally young people in your car (often in the front seat), they all want to talk to you more like a friend than a cabbie, and you're usually taking them home or somewhere fun.

One of my earliest fares was two attractive young women who needed to be taken from Santa Monica to Manhattan Beach, which is about 20 miles and thus required plenty of car time together. At the end of an interesting and bright conversation, they invited me to come into the bar where I dropped them off and of course I could have just gone off-line with Uber (you toggle on/off completely at your own discretion) and joined them. If it had been closer to home and not completely contrary to my plan for the night, I would have done it. I suspect people meet and date through similar interaction.

Also, because inherently you are likely to be driving people who have been drinking, the usual social barriers are pretty well removed and many just launch into all kinds of personal things and also ask a lot of personal questions. (If you've seen Taxi Cab Confessions on HBO you'll get the picture.)

I really enjoyed that for the most part – although I certainly didn't need to know about the young Swedish guy's drug addiction – and as a big people-person I found it generally fascinating.


I hadn't considered one thing that ended up being a real buzz-kill... I had one carload of super snotty girls (not sure any were of legal drinking age) and after jerking me around forever by not responding to my calls and texts while I burned a bunch of valuable time right after midnight, one of them approached and said in the snobbiest way possible, “Is this the Uber guy?”

And then all four of them were texting and engaging in bitchy gossip and acting like I was not even there. I'm sure it's how the average taxi driver feels 99% of the time and since this is really the same thing, you have to expect some of that. But there was a big part of me that wanted just to shove them out of my car and when I finally got to their destination, of course it was at daddy's huge mansion and they didn't even bother to rate me as a driver.

Two friends of mine used Uber last night to get home around 2am in OKC and one fare was $186 and the other $285. (both of these cars traveled from the same bar and to the same destination)

I don't think people realize you can see the fare quote before actually requesting a driver. Plus this was also most likely during the 8X.

But one thing about Pete's experience that peaked my interest, is the driver sets the tip percentage ahead of time? So basically drivers could price gouge drunks after bars close down and make a killing.


I am really interested to see how this plays out since last night was probably the first real "price surge" night of Uber's growing popularity.

As a rider, YOU set the tip amount as a standard percentage that applies to all your rides.

The rider can override it, but almost no one does.

So, when you set up your account, you usually specify 15 or 20% and that is automatically added unless you change it at the end of the ride. But I don't think anyone did that for me.

Uber is insistent on the driver telling riders that tip is already included, because they don't want drivers taking cash then the rider getting charged again through the app. A couple of people asked me about the tip and I told them it was already included and they had already done everything that was needed.


It's actually very strange for riders to get dropped off and just get out of the car. The driver merely hits "end ride" on his phone, and that's it.

It does calculate the final fare and a few people asked to know the amount (easier than looking it up on their phone) because they were splitting the fare with co-riders.

BTW, my biggest fare was $120 and that was driving 26 miles.

I also think I was technically classified as a Black Car rather than UberX, so the rates are higher in general.

I suppose the super high rates in OKC were due to newness of the system and thus a lack of drivers. In any event, you can always see the approximate fare in advance and I know last night, riders were even given an alert over and above what you normally get when you ask for a ride... Basically a pop-up asking you to acknowledge the special surge pricing.

They also sent out tons of messages in advance of the night telling riders about the special fares, so if someone didn't know they were going to get charged a premium, I don't know what else Uber could have done.

And as I said previously, I STILL told people every time they got in the car that the ride was likely to be much more expensive than usual.

Pete, are you sure about the tip thing? I've used Uber numerous times - in OKC and elsewhere, and I have never been asked to enter a tip percentage. On the website it does ask you to enter a tip percentage for when you use UberTAXI, but not for X, Black, SUV, etc. In fact I'm pretty sure I've read multiple places that Uber touts the "no-tipping" policy as one of it's strengths - for UberX at least.

That would be truly bizarre if they paid drivers a different split in different markets, but I can see why they'd do that. Pretty sure every driver I've talked to in OKC says they get 80% of the fare while Uber gets 20%. And I haven't been charged anything extra by Uber on my intra-OKC trips other than the cash tips to the driver, assuming they helped me with my bags. Maybe Uber offers a higher % to drivers in new markets, and in more established markets like LA, they keep a bit more. Did they not tell you up front when you signed on what your piece of the pie would be?

Another thing...

Even though NYE this year was on a Wednesday and thus probably the 'slowest' night of the week for the holiday, there were still tons and tons of people everywhere desperate for a ride.

I got called to a hotel in Santa Monica and they had 5 or 6 employees standing out in the middle of the street -- literally! -- with flashlights frantically trying to flag down cabs for people needing a ride from their property.

I took about a dozen fares and there were likely hundreds of other drivers on the westside of LA alone, which means perhaps close to a thousand extra rides available just in that area. And still, people were waiting for hours and resorting to all types of crazy measures just to get a lift.

Also, of my ~ dozen fares only one of them had less than four people. One had seven (technically I was only supposed to take four at a time), one had six, etc.

So even with surge pricing, I think the most any one person had to pay for a ride I provided last night was maybe $30; assuming they were splitting the far among their group.

$30 for a ride in Los Angeles on NYE is pretty darn reasonable and I bet many would have paid a lot more.

Sounds like you need a minivan, Pete.

Pete, are you sure about the tip thing? I've used Uber numerous times - in OKC and elsewhere, and I have never been asked to enter a tip percentage. On the website it does ask you to enter a tip percentage for when you use UberTAXI, but not for X, Black, SUV, etc. In fact I'm pretty sure I've read multiple places that Uber touts the "no-tipping" policy as one of it's strengths - for UberX at least.

That would be truly bizarre if they paid drivers a different split in different markets, but I can see why they'd do that. Pretty sure every driver I've talked to in OKC says they get 80% of the fare while Uber gets 20%. And I haven't been charged anything extra by Uber on my intra-OKC trips other than the cash tips to the driver, assuming they helped me with my bags. Maybe Uber offers a higher % to drivers in new markets, and in more established markets like LA, they keep a bit more. Did they not tell you up front when you signed on what your piece of the pie would be?

You are right -- I misunderstood the policy.

This is a screenshot from my Uber rider account:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/uber.jpg

Pete

We used Uber in Philadelphia several times this last weekend. Do you the driver know the tip amount %wise when picking up? Also, I know that drivers and passengers can rate each other. Do you see the ratings? I haven't seen a way for the rider to look at ratings left on us. Curious as I am more apt to use Uber in OKC to transport tipsy employee home and would like to make sure they didn't make an ass out of themselves.

Pete, are you sure about the tip thing? I've used Uber numerous times - in OKC and elsewhere, and I have never been asked to enter a tip percentage. On the website it does ask you to enter a tip percentage for when you use UberTAXI, but not for X, Black, SUV, etc. In fact I'm pretty sure I've read multiple places that Uber touts the "no-tipping" policy as one of it's strengths - for UberX at least.

That would be truly bizarre if they paid drivers a different split in different markets, but I can see why they'd do that. Pretty sure every driver I've talked to in OKC says they get 80% of the fare while Uber gets 20%. And I haven't been charged anything extra by Uber on my intra-OKC trips other than the cash tips to the driver, assuming they helped me with my bags. Maybe Uber offers a higher % to drivers in new markets, and in more established markets like LA, they keep a bit more. Did they not tell you up front when you signed on what your piece of the pie would be?


My drivers have always declined cash tips. (people offering who are unaware that the tip is included into fare)

I wonder if drivers can get in trouble for accepting cash tips? I noticed on the website you can request "fare review" of your trips and it looks as if Uber will look into it.

So now this is what it looks like for my work last night:

80% of the $700 I earned in 17 fares but no tips.



If I was heartless I could have made more; I should have never allowed the sky-high woman into my car as that took about 45 minutes of prime price-surge time. In the end, I didn't get a dime from her. Hope she's okay today. :)

Also, I could have easily ditched a couple of people who made me wait for more than 10 minutes (the recommended threshold for cancellation by Uber).

And I let one guy get out after only a couple of blocks after warning him about the higher charges; this was after going way out of my way to pick him up -- another 45 minutes or so wasted.


And although I can see that all the riders who rated me gave me a perfect 5, my rating is only 4.4 for some reason. Perhaps because I didn't take a couple of rides that popped up; they were at LAX and no way was I burning NYE circling that crazy place looking for one soul.

Interestingly, after I let two notices pass (you have to take it within 15 seconds or it goes to the next-closest available driver) they forced me off-line. It's actually a very good idea and I quickly learned just to go off-line if I got anywhere near the airport.

Pete

We used Uber in Philadelphia several times this last weekend. Do you the driver know the tip amount %wise when picking up? Also, I know that drivers and passengers can rate each other. Do you see the ratings? I haven't seen a way for the rider to look at ratings left on us. Curious as I am more apt to use Uber in OKC to transport tipsy employee home and would like to make sure they didn't make an ass out of themselves.

As we sorted out above, there is no tip unless you are using UberTaxi; I think that is actually a partnership with a registered cab driver.

But regardless, I'm sure drivers can't see the tip percentage in advance.


BTW, you also have no idea where someone wants to go and it's not cool to tell someone "no" regardless of their preferred destination, so that's another driving downside. I got pulled pretty far away from the prime spots a few times.


As far as ratings, yes, you can see what you were rated by each rider after the fact in a report. I got all 5's apart from a few who didn't bother to rate. But ratings also depend on the percentage of rides you accept.

One of my drivers in PHL told me that you will get dinged for passing up fares


So now this is what it looks like for my work last night:

80% of the $700 I earned in 17 fares but no tips.



If I was heartless I could have made more; I should have never allowed the sky-high woman into my car as that took about 45 minutes of prime price-surge time. In the end, I didn't get a dime from her. Hope she's okay today. :)

Also, I could have easily ditched a couple of people who made me wait for more than 10 minutes (the recommended threshold for cancellation by Uber).

And I let one guy get out after only a couple of blocks after warning him about the higher charges; this was after going way out of my way to pick him up -- another 45 minutes or so wasted.


And although I can see that all the riders who rated me gave me a perfect 5, my rating is only 4.4 for some reason. Perhaps because I didn't take a couple of rides that popped up; they were at LAX and no way was I burning NYE circling that crazy place looking for one soul.

Interestingly, after I let two notices pass (you have to take it within 15 seconds or it goes to the next-closest available driver) they forced me off-line. It's actually a very good idea and I quickly learned just to go off-line if I got anywhere near the airport.

Just to be clear on a driver "passing" there are two categories:

1. A ride request pops up and you don't respond in 15 seconds; just let it pass and Uber moves on to the next closest driver
2. You accept a ride pop-up but then cancel it


Also, the rider can cancel their request. That happened to me a few times but in every case it was almost immediately after I accepted, so it wasn't a big inconvenience.

Uber exacts a pretty good rating hit on either side if you cancel after there is mutual acceptance.

But I think you also get hit as a driver if you are on-line and merely don't respond in the 15-second window.

So as a driver does it just pop up and say "LAX" or does it try to at least give you a specific terminal, etc.? That sounds like a headache for a driver, for sure.

Pete, How many miles did you log on the night as fare, vs how many you actually ended up driving? How much gas too? Any puke or left-behinds?

IMO the biggest downside for the driver is you only get an address and it's not 100% accurate. For example, I was called to a house on an alley and after waiting for a while and trying to reach the rider, they finally called and said they were actually at a restaurant a few doors down.

Same thing with LAX... Just "1 World Way" Los Angeles; you can also see the approx location on the Uber map. But yes, no terminal or other info unless the rider texts it to you and not one person did this last night.

Tip for riders: Put in your request then text the driver: "Right outside Skinny Slim's" or wherever you are. They'll get there much more quickly and it will help them spend more time on fares.


I ended up driving a couple hundred miles and used about 2/3rds a tank; perhaps $40 in gas.


I think my car's okay. :)

My drivers have always declined cash tips. (people offering who are unaware that the tip is included into fare)

I wonder if drivers can get in trouble for accepting cash tips? I noticed on the website you can request "fare review" of your trips and it looks as if Uber will look into it.

It's up to the driver - I don't think they get in trouble - unless as a rider you wanted to report them for accepting a tip? Which would be a ridiculous IMO. In my experience UberX drivers in OKC certainly don't ask for tips (through words or actions), but they're usually good about saying that in no way is a tip expected. In philly however, driver gladly take any extra cash you offer them. Not too surprising hah.

One of the nice things about no tipping -- and Uber advertising that fact -- is that as a driver you don't carry any cash and everyone pretty much knows that.

Makes it much safer.

Uber reminds New Year's Eve partiers that rides will be very, very expensive - NBC News.com (http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/uber-reminds-new-years-eve-partiers-rides-will-be-very-2D11821228)

Does Uber do any insurance checking up on drivers, like if they have a binder for hired vehicle and driver and notification to Uber if you or the company cancels it?

If so, are the limits required minimum statutory or higher?

Clear as mud, particularly as it applies to Oklahoma.

The Strange Tale of an Uber Car Crash and What It Means for the Future of Auto Insurance - Emily Badger - The Atlantic Cities (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/09/real-future-ride-sharing-may-all-come-down-insurance/6832/)

Yup. UberX now has a 2M policy to cover X drivers, cars, occupants, etc. The hardest part of getting to this point was just finding an insurance company willing to insure.

Similar to the battle Tesla has had getting their cars insured accurately at times.

My googler doesn't seem to want to cough up any real details to support that. I'll take your word for it until I use it for anything besides a cab like we did with my son's ap in Chicago. Probably will also read the TOS for liability disclaimers when/if I upgrade my phone and load the ap.

Does Uber do any insurance checking up on drivers, like if they have a binder for hired vehicle and driver and notification to Uber if you or the company cancels it?

If so, are the limits required minimum statutory or higher?

Yes, there are minimum requirements, and not just insurance.

You have to submit to and clear a background / driving record check, provide proof of insurance, car registration and photos of the outside and inside of your car. You also have to drive a 2000 model or newer to even be considered.

And over and above that, Uber provides it's own insurance.

Okay, I looked at the TOS on their webpage. Here's a couple of snips:

Your contracting partner is Uber B.V., a private limited liability company established in the Netherlands, having its offices at Barbara Strozzilaan 201, 1083 HN Amsterdam, the Netherlands, registered at the Chamber of Commerce under number 55808646


For the avoidance of doubt: Uber itself does not provide transportation services, and Uber is not a transportation carrier. It is up to the Transportation Provider to offer transportation services, which may be requested through the use of the Application and/or the Service. Uber only acts as intermediary between you and the Transportation Provider. The provision of the transportation services by the Transportation Provider to you is therefore subject to the agreement (to be) entered into between you and the Transportation Provider. Uber shall never be a party to such agreement.

Indemnification

By accepting these User Terms and using the Application or Service, you agree that you shall defend, indemnify and hold Uber, its affiliates, its licensors, and each of their officers, directors, other users, employees, attorneys and agents harmless from and against any and all claims, costs, damages, losses, liabilities and expenses (including attorneys' fees and costs) arising out of or in connection with: (a) your violation or breach of any term of these User Terms or any applicable law or regulation, whether or not referenced herein; (b) your violation of any rights of any third party, including Transportation Providers arranged via the Application, or (c) your use or misuse of the Application or Service.
Liability

The information, recommendations and/or services provided to you on or through the Website, the Service and the Application is for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. Uber will reasonably keep the Website and the Application and its contents correct and up to date but does not guarantee that (the contents of) the Website and/or Application are free of errors, defects, malware and viruses or that the Website and/or Application are correct, up to date and accurate.

Uber shall not be liable for any damages resulting from the use of or inability to use) the Website or Application (but to the exclusion of death or personal injury), including damages caused by malware, viruses or any incorrectness or incompleteness of the Information or the Website or Application, unless such damage is the result of any wilful misconduct or from gross negligence on the part of Uber.

Uber shall further not be liable for damages resulting from the use of (or the inability to use) electronic means of communication with the Website or the Application, including – but not limited to – damages resulting from failure or delay in delivery of electronic communications, interception or manipulation of electronic communications by third parties or by computer programs used for electronic communications and transmission of viruses.

Without prejudice to the foregoing, and insofar as allowed under mandatory applicable law, Uber's aggregate liability shall in no event exceed an amount of EUR 500 or, where applicable, the equivalent of that amount in the currency used by you for the payment of the transportation services to the Transportation Provide.

The quality of the transportation services requested through the use of the Application or the Service is entirely the responsibility of the Transportation Provider who ultimately provides such transportation services to you. Uber under no circumstance accepts liability in connection with and/or arising from the transportation services provided by the Transportation Provider or any acts, action, behaviour, conduct, and/or negligence on the part of the Transportation Provider. Any complaints about the transportation services provided by the Transportation Provider should therefore be submitted to the Transportation Provider.

The address lookup tool is linked to Foursquare. If I'm at Skinny Slim's, I choose that one. Are you saying it will only tell the driver the address on Main street and not that it is at Skinny Slim's (if that is what I selected)? When coming to my house, it is just an address that I use.

If location is linked to Four Square, not one of my 17 fares used it.

All I ever received was an address and it was often not completely accurate.

I had to call/text virtually every single person and hope they would respond.

My googler doesn't seem to want to cough up any real details to support that. I'll take your word for it until I use it for anything besides a cab like we did with my son's ap in Chicago. Probably will also read the TOS for liability disclaimers when/if I upgrade my phone and load the ap.

From the article that MK linked to.

"Uber, in the meantime, has begun to expand from its luxury sedan service into something that looks more like ride-sharing under the label UberX. Some of the drivers of the cheaper mid-range cars are also licensed cabbies, with their own commercial insurance. But some of them are just regular people with their own cars. In those cases, Uber is providing a commercial policy to cover the rides."

From the article that MK linked to.

"Uber, in the meantime, has begun to expand from its luxury sedan service into something that looks more like ride-sharing under the label UberX. Some of the drivers of the cheaper mid-range cars are also licensed cabbies, with their own commercial insurance. But some of them are just regular people with their own cars. In those cases, Uber is providing a commercial policy to cover the rides."

I read that in a couple of articles. Only that, no real details, as I said. Nothing I can find about it on the Uber site either. At least not that I have turned up in a few searches.

I read that in a couple of articles. Only that, no real details, as I said. Nothing I can find about it on the Uber site either. At least not that I have turned up in a few searches.

Not sure what you looked for but I did one google search for "uberx insurance" and the very first organic search result was this blog entry from Uber:

In the absence of regulatory clarity, Uber will implement safeguards in terms of safety and insurance that will go beyond what local regulatory bodies have in place for commercial transportation.
1.At minimum, there will be a $1,000,000 per-incident insurance policy applicable to ridesharing trips. This insurance applies to any ridesharing trip requested through the Uber technology platform.
2.Extensive and strict background checks will be performed on any ridesharing transportation provider allowed on the Uber platform. The criteria for which a driver will be disqualified will be stricter than what any existing local regulatory body already has in place for commercial transportation providers.


Here is the link:

Uber Blog | Uber Policy White Paper 1.0 (http://blog.uber.com/2013/04/12/uber-policy-white-paper-1-0/)

Not sure what you looked for but I did one google search for "uberx insurance" and the very first organic search result was this blog entry from Uber:

In the absence of regulatory clarity, Uber will implement safeguards in terms of safety and insurance that will go beyond what local regulatory bodies have in place for commercial transportation.
1.At minimum, there will be a $1,000,000 per-incident insurance policy applicable to ridesharing trips. This insurance applies to any ridesharing trip requested through the Uber technology platform.
2.Extensive and strict background checks will be performed on any ridesharing transportation provider allowed on the Uber platform. The criteria for which a driver will be disqualified will be stricter than what any existing local regulatory body already has in place for commercial transportation providers.


Here is the link:

Uber Blog | Uber Policy White Paper 1.0 (http://blog.uber.com/2013/04/12/uber-policy-white-paper-1-0/)

So, the unanswered question remains, if there is any ambiguity in Oklahoma law about commercial insurance such that Uber's policy would come into play? My guess without looking would be the law says the owner of a vehicle engaged in commercial transportation will carry commercial insurance. I don't read the white paper saying Uber has blanket coverage for all drivers. Nor that they will cover anyone who does not comply with an unabiguous law. Do you read that differently?

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Is there any way to exclude getting a certain driver? I don't want to support businessmen who benefit from the MAPS for Millionaires tax that was used to get the NBA here.

So, the unanswered question remains, if there is any ambiguity in Oklahoma law about commercial insurance such that Uber's policy would come into play? My guess without looking would be the law says the owner of a vehicle engaged in commercial transportation will carry commercial insurance. I don't read the white paper saying Uber has blanket coverage for all drivers. Nor that they will cover anyone who does not comply with an unabiguous law. Do you read that differently?

I read the entire paper different. The paper basically is talking amount non licensed drivers which is what überx is. Uber uses professional drivers that have livery licenses and commercial insurance. What the paper is saying is that areas where they are enforcing regulations against unlicensed drivers like Austin and Philly, there isn't an issue because those cities are enforcing their regulations against non licensed drivers thus preventing them from operation. In area where the regulation against non licensed drivers either don't exist, are ambiguous (ie...don't apply to these type of programs) or are not being enforced, they will get into the non licensed ride sharing with uberx. In those cases where they are using uberx, they will provide insurance.

Okay. So to cut right to the meat of it, maybe an Uberx driver in Oklahoma will ask Uber to provide them a copy of the policy that covers the driver and their riders, then share it with us or the local press.

One more thought on Oklahoma law, it's required to have an insurance verification form in the vehicle, so if Über is providing that coverage, the operator is required to have a document showing it.

Minimum liability and proof thereof is required. Not sure why you think Uber's own policy would be required proof inside the vehicle. Uber isn't covering minimum liability, which is what the state requires.


Yes, there are minimum requirements, and not just insurance.<snip>

We've come full circle.

My original question...does Uber require commercial insurance and do they require the insurance provider to notify them of changes or cancellation?

From the article I linked:


Broadly speaking, there are two kinds of car insurance: the personal policies we all (should) have for our private cars, and commercial policies that cover vehicles in the use of a business. Your personal policy probably has a line that says you can’t drive your car for commercial purposes. If you take your minivan out to ferry strangers around town for cash, and you get in an accident while doing that, your insurance company will likely refuse to pay out. For this reason, a pizza delivery guy who drives his personal vehicle is covered by the pizza company’s insurance policy while he’s working. And a cab driver, even if he owns his own vehicle, has to take out a commercial policy to cover it.

What that likely means for us and Uberx drivers, the personal insurance and certificate doesn't mean anything to anyone and is proof of nothing if they are ferrying people for hire. That driver does not comply with the law. They are an uninsured motorist. Worse yet, they are an uninsured motorist for hire.

If the claim (as Uber implies and has some of the media parroting) Uber is going to provide coverage for those instances where their drivers don't have commercial policies, then they need to provide a certificate showing coverage for the particular vehicle per the Oklahoma law. At a minimum, they should make it crystal clear what they are and aren't providing and quit muddying the water by having total disclaimers in their TOS and then issuing white papers about some nebulous coverage they might provide in some circumstances.

This is just like the mayor/shadid thread. MK isn't going to believe anything and argue everything. OK law requires drivers to carry proof of liability insurance which is different from commercial insurance. I am curious if you ask to see the pizza company's insurance card before they deliver a pizza in case the driver ends up in your front living room?

If you don't think you are covered....don't use it.

This is just like the mayor/shadid thread. MK isn't going to believe anything and argue everything. OK law requires drivers to carry proof of liability insurance which is different from commercial insurance. I am curious if you ask to see the pizza company's insurance card before they deliver a pizza in case the driver ends up in your front living room?



It absolutely is not different. You can't have it both ways under the law, either you're driving a vehicle for hire or you are driving it personally. If you are driving for hire, your liability is the direct result of commercial activity and would require commercial liability coverage. As stated in the link, personal liability insurance isn't going to cover the driver, the passengers or the people and property damaged when an accident occurs.

Pick up your phone and ask your insurer...but I suspect what's legal isn't important to many in this thread.


If you don't think you are covered....don't use it.

I may be forced to deal with the aftermath when an uninsured Uberx motorist hits one of my vehicles, injures me and or one of my employees. We have uninsured motorist laws for a reason. We have licensing of commercial businesses and the government checking up on issues like commercial coverage for a reason.

I operate a business (20+ years now) that has commercial liability insurance for all our activities both on and off the road so I've been living these kinds of issues for a long time now. It's required by law both ways in my industry. We provide the state with an insurance certificate with a cancellation notice requirement before they issue a license or renew the license and we get our license suspended if we drop our coverage. We also carry the required certificates in the vehicles showing that coverage. It's in the public interest to require that, to best protect the citizens, and especially when a person is engaging in commercial activity, which tends to be a lot more activity and expose a lot more people than if they are acting personally.

Uber wants to put a bunch of people in business. That's great. Step up, comply with the law and provide actual coverage for the public.

It absolutely is not different. You can't have it both ways under the law, either your are driving a vehicle for hire or you are driving it personally. If you are driving for hire, your liability is the direct result of commercial activity and would require commercial liability coverage. As stated in the link, personal liability insurance isn't going to cover the driver, the passengers or the people and property damaged when an accident occurs.

Pick up your phone and ask your insurer...but I suspect what's legal isn't important to many in this thread.



I may be forced to deal with the aftermath when an uninsured Uberx motorist hits one of my vehicles. We have uninsured motorist laws for a reason. We have licensing of commercial businesses and the government checking up on issues like commercial coverage for a reason.

I operate a business (20+ years now) that has commercial liability insurance for all our activities both on and off the road so I've been living these kinds of issues for a long time now. It's required by law both ways in my industry. We provide the state with an insurance certificate with a cancellation notice requirement before they issue a license or renew the license and we get our license suspended if we drop our coverage. We also carry the required certificates in the vehicles showing that coverage. It's in the public interest to require that, to best protect the citizens, and especially when a person is engaging in commercial activity, which tends to be a lot more activity and expose a lot more people than if they are acting personally.

Uber wants to put a bunch of people in business. That's great. Step up, comply with the law and provide actual coverage for the public.

I understand the difference between the commercial and non commercial insurance as I have both. However...the law does not require proof of commercial insurance be carried which is what you were saying. It only requires you to carry proof of liability insurance. The pizza delivery boy is not required to keep the pizza company's policy in his car...just his own. Once again....do you demand to see it?

That is the purpose of uninsured insurance which everyone should have and is no fault insurance so it won't make your insurance rates go up. BUT...it was clearly pointed out to you that Uberx provides insurance. Call it a white paper or whatever...it is their own statement on their own website blog. Like the shadid arguments...you just refuse to believe anything you don't want to believe. That being said, I am done with you so you may have the last word as there is no reasoning with you.

btw...your insurer probably isn't a lawyer....if you want a legal answer, call a lawyer instead of your insurer. (of course you won't believe him if he doesn't give you the answer you want)

I understand the difference between the commercial and non commercial insurance as I have both. However...the law does not require proof of commercial insurance be carried which is what you were saying. It only requires you to carry proof of liability insurance. The pizza delivery boy is not required to keep the pizza company's policy in his car...just his own. Once again....do you demand to see it?

You don't have liability insurance if your carrier doesn't cover you. A piece of paper saying they will cover you at some other time, place and for some other activity is worthless. You get in a wreck and hand me that certificate, and if you know it doesn't cover you, that's fraud. If you don't know it doesn't cover you, ignorance is no excuse, you are just irresponsible. Still against the law for not having the coverage and the documentation.

We don't know what a pizza delivery boy is required to carry under the law.



That is the purpose of uninsured insurance which everyone should have and is no fault insurance so it won't make your insurance rates go up. BUT...it was clearly pointed out to you that Uberx provides insurance. Call it a white paper or whatever...it is their own statement on their own website blog.


Wrong. I asked for clarity. Nothing provided clearly states who is covered when and I have provided you with cites saying Uberx drivers are not likley to have any coverage under their personal policy while ferrying people. So far, there are no details, certificates or copies of policies from Uber. Just lots of pushback for asking the inconvenient questions.




Like the shadid arguments...you just refuse to believe anything you don't want to believe. That being said, I am done with you so you may have the last word as there is no reasoning with you.

Ditto. No proof of anything on your end. A non-specific statement in a whitepaper on a blog. And lots of hot air.



btw...your insurer probably isn't a lawyer....if you want a legal answer, call a lawyer instead of your insurer. (of course you won't believe him if he doesn't give you the answer you want)

They can tell you if your policy covers you for commercial use ferrying people. Some might find it does and some will find it doesn't. But yeah, I have several lawyers I use in my business for different reasons. Anyone who wants to go in business like this should pick up their phone and call their lawyer.

It absolutely is not different. You can't have it both ways under the law, either your are driving a vehicle for hire or you are driving it personally. If you are driving for hire, your liability is the direct result of commercial activity and would require commercial liability coverage. As stated in the link, personal liability insurance isn't going to cover the driver, the passengers or the people and property damaged when an accident occurs.

Pick up your phone and ask your insurer...but I suspect what's legal isn't important to many in this thread.



I may be forced to deal with the aftermath when an uninsured Uberx motorist hits one of my vehicles, injures me and or one of my employees. We have uninsured motorist laws for a reason. We have licensing of commercial businesses and the government checking up on issues like commercial coverage for a reason.

I operate a business (20+ years now) that has commercial liability insurance for all our activities both on and off the road so I've been living these kinds of issues for a long time now. It's required by law both ways in my industry. We provide the state with an insurance certificate with a cancellation notice requirement before they issue a license or renew the license and we get our license suspended if we drop our coverage. We also carry the required certificates in the vehicles showing that coverage. It's in the public interest to require that, to best protect the citizens, and especially when a person is engaging in commercial activity, which tends to be a lot more activity and expose a lot more people than if they are acting personally.

Uber wants to put a bunch of people in business. That's great. Step up, comply with the law and provide actual coverage for the public.

Wow! For once I agree with MK on a thread! I'll cop to not reading the entire thread, so if Uber does provide liability insurance, boo me.

I'm confused why you keep referencing the white paper. Uber says they have a policy for UberX drivers. Referenced it several times and most media articles cite it. Are you wanting them to publish a Xerox copy online or something for you? I'm not trying to be snide here but it is a bizarre request. No other company, including yours, is required to publish that information because someone like you doesn't trust them. That's your choice I guess whether or not you want to trust them.

To flip this, you say you have commercial insurance and your only proof is your post here on OKCTalk. I don't think that's sufficient evidence and now I'm worried that you don't actually have any at all. Your nebulous claim isn't sufficient to keep me from worrying that you are going to hit me or my family. So, please post a full copy of your policy for me. Either that, or you are just blowing

The state won't license me if I don't have coverage. I'm pretty sure my records are part of public record. You can check my licensing online if you knew the name of my company or you can pick up the phone and verify it. You could go to their office and ask for my file and I'm pretty sure you can get access. I've seen them open them up for the media too. Actual open files, on a desk, recorded on camera and broadcast.

We provide insurance certificates on a daily basis to people whom we are doing business with and get theirs too. It's a normal part of business.

We aren't doing business here on OKC talk.

So then, if you requested a copy of their insurance, would you not get it?

The driver, UBer or both? Beats me. Uber sure isn't making it easy. Do either have it on file as public record?

In my business it's also required I have my company name and state ID on all vehicles engaged in company activities. So you don't even have to be doing business with me to find out about my license and insurance.

Why does Uber need to operate in the shadows? Who's interests are served by that? Not the public or the consumer.

Sid, I want to support Uberx. It's a neat concept. When the answers about the company, the drivers, the city and/or the state making sure insurance needs are met I will fully support it. That's not nearly as clear as you would like it to be.

Uber / Lyft may be the best idea since Amazon or eBay
.

The talk about using those services to deliver for Amazon or local businesses makes too much sense. Why not just hail a Uber driver instead of employing people directly?

Or better yet, it provides a ready delivery mechanism for those businesses who don't have the means or consistent need to have employees for delivery.

It makes particular sense when there is strong demand, like the mention of roses on Valentine's, or food and gifts during the holidays.


You basically have thousands of people with cars all around, so why not tap into that existing network?? Absolutely brilliant business idea and model.

https://www.zipments.com/

An acquaintance back home was involved in the start-up of Zipments.

I just learned that as a driver, you never see what an rider has rated you.

I had seen ratings on my driver account but those were the ones I gave the riders.

My rating is only 4.4 out of a possible 4.7 and I have no idea if someone dinged me (perhaps for high rates, which were completely outside of my control) or if Uber dinged me because I passed on a couple of pick-up opportunities.

Uber / Lyft may be the best idea since Amazon or eBay
.

The talk about using those services to deliver for Amazon or local businesses makes too much sense. Why not just hail a Uber driver instead of employing people directly?

Or better yet, it provides a ready delivery mechanism for those businesses who don't have the means or consistent need to have employees for delivery.

It makes particular sense when there is strong demand, like the mention of roses on Valentine's, or food and gifts during the holidays.


You basically have thousands of people with cars all around, so why not tap into that existing network?? Absolutely brilliant business idea and model.

Wow. That makes a lot of sense. Especially for a small business who couldn't afford to keep full-time drivers on the payroll.

Here's a pretty good rundown of the insurance confusion surrounding the issue along with more details. Plus how California has been trying to get in front of it all. Worth the read.

Highlights:

Personal insurance won't cover you, unless they pay the claim anyway. Uber's $1 million extension policy will cover you, except when it might not. (The policy is mandated in California. Not mandated in Oklahoma yet. Who knows what similar terms may or may not apply to us.)

I'm sure it will all shake out eventually and in the meanwhile, the devil may care attitude will see us through. Or not.


The ride-service drivers I talked to aren’t focusing on that risk. Right now, they seem to be enamored of the good pay, flexible schedule and social aspects of their jobs. Any insurance concerns they may have aren’t serious enough to spur them to quit, with many citing the TNCs’ $1 million liability policies as a mitigating factor.

Lyft driver Dan summed it up this way:

“Am I worried about the sky falling when I walk out the door? No. Is it more of a distinct possibility that when I’m driving for Lyft in the city? Yeah. But I’m not thinking about it.”

Confusion Over Insurance for ?Ride-Sharing? Drivers | KQED News Fix (http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/11/14/who-pays-when-ride-share-driver-crashes)

It was linked off a story of the off duty Uberx driver getting arrested for alleged manslaughter yesterday in California. Not on a call. Probably not going to a call, but he apparently self identified himself as a driver.

Last night (Saturday) I met some friends for dinner in Hollywood so I decided to go-online with Uber and see if I could pick up a few fares and help pay for my evening out. :) It was a bit of a test to see how much money was to be made on a non-NYE night.

I was surprised by how few requests I fielded: only 3 in about a 3-hour period. I only earned about $70 in fares, so my cut is $56. And of course, that does not include my gas costs.

As a driver, you can't see where the other Uber drivers are located but if you log in as a passenger you can. And everywhere I looked there were Black Cars (my classification) all over the place.

Today, I wrote my local Uber driver service department and asked if they had any suggestions for better times and places, and should I just roam around or stay put? They basically told me -- in a very nice way -- that they couldn't help with that.


So, at least here in LA on a regular weekend night, there seems to be tons of Uber drivers. In fact, on all three of my fares, when I was hailed I was very nearby and was able to get to the riders in just a few minutes.

I also saw a lot of Lyft drivers (they attach a silly pink mustache to their grills) so this whole concept is in full effect here. Both these services have critical mass in terms of drivers and I'm sure that will only lead to many more riders.

We used Uber last night and came across my first issue with the app unless I am missing something. We were at a beer tasting at McNellies with another couple from Shawnee that was staying at hotel in bricktown. They were not familiar with Uber and was going to take a taxi. I used my Uber to get them a ride to bricktown. No problem and a little bmw 328 pulled up a few minutes later. Here is the problem though...I would not let me request a call for me and my wife until they were delivered to the hotel and that ride was completed. Fortunately they were only going to Bricktown and it wasn't a long wait. They need to set it up where you can request multiple cars for multiple rides. Our ride was a Dodge four door pickup btw.

Speaking with my driver, he told me that there were only four drivers full time and the rest had other jobs which explains why cars are a little more scarce during the business day. I have looked during the day and the time for a car was 15-20 minutes most of the time and I office downtown. I am sure this will get better as they get more drivers.

We used Uber last night and came across my first issue with the app unless I am missing something. We were at a beer tasting at McNellies with another couple from Shawnee that was staying at hotel in bricktown. They were not familiar with Uber and was going to take a taxi. I used my Uber to get them a ride to bricktown. No problem and a little bmw 328 pulled up a few minutes later. Here is the problem though...I would not let me request a call for me and my wife until they were delivered to the hotel and that ride was completed. Fortunately they were only going to Bricktown and it wasn't a long wait. They need to set it up where you can request multiple cars for multiple rides. Our ride was a Dodge four door pickup btw.

Speaking with my driver, he told me that there were only four drivers full time and the rest had other jobs which explains why cars are a little more scarce during the business day. I have looked during the day and the time for a car was 15-20 minutes most of the time and I office downtown. I am sure this will get better as they get more drivers.

I don't think this is an issue with Uber. It worked exactly as intended - you're the one with the app, so you requested the ride. Sort of makes sense that you can't request multiple rides at the same time. Uber is probably quite okay with this arrangement. The more people that use Uber directly or indirectly, the more people that are likely to download the app and start using it themselves.

As a driver, you actually are supposed to confirm the identity of the rider by looking at their driver's license.

Otherwise, anyone can get in the car but the person that made the request you responded to gets charged.

You aren't supposed to say "Are you Matt?" because people learn to say yes, jump in, and then the ride gets billed to someone else.

I don't think this is an issue with Uber. It worked exactly as intended - you're the one with the app, so you requested the ride. Sort of makes sense that you can't request multiple rides at the same time. Uber is probably quite okay with this arrangement. The more people that use Uber directly or indirectly, the more people that are likely to download the app and start using it themselves.

It only makes sense if you are only concerned with yourself. As a employer and business owner, there are times that I will want to utilize Uber for employees or clients. I have actually used Uber in OKC four times of which three of the four times were for someone else besides me. My point is that the app should let you request more than one ride per account or design a similar app for businesses that may wine and dine clients than want to put them in Uber but pay the bill. As an employer, there may be times that I want to use multiple cars for employees like after a Christmas party. I would much rather pay for ten people to uber home than have one of them get a DUI after I provided alcohol to them.

Also, letting people order more than one car actually helps Uber. My friends last night would have been quite content taking a taxi and would never download or try Uber. As I paid for their ride last night and put them in a Uber car, he was calling me today asking how to set it up. I will not send someone again on my account if it means that I have to wait for a car for myself so really means less exposure for them.

Pete makes a good point about other people jumping in and I have never been asked for an id anywhere I have used Uber. Of course, I usually say "are you (drivers name)" They could very easily send you a password or number code that you give driver to ensure you are the right person to solve the problem of using the car for people not named on account.

The people jumping in is much more an issue in the case of a big event letting out all at once, where there is a crush of people trying to get a car.

Just as easily, you could get the wrong rider, as at least out here there are often multiple Uber requests from one location. Since the rider account is opened when you accept the request, when you start the fare it automatically goes to that person.



I also had another rider ID problem... On NYE I was waiting for the rider outside a house party and someone asked if I was with Uber and I asked, "Are you Parker? And when she said no I waited around forever only to finally figure out this same ditzy girl was using her dad's account and his name was Parker. You think she would have made the connection but I wasted the better part of a half hour right after midnight.