(So...) what?

This is great! You should be happy. OKCTalk should rejoice and throw a "blog party" where everyone joins the same chat-room, and pops their own bottle of champagne! (Maybe they could even get out of their pajamas and throw on a tuxedo shirt)

When this project is done, all of this BS talk will be irrelevant and forgettable. Lets not forget what Landrun has done for 23rd St. They are/were among the first believers in 23rd St... What have you done for 23rd St?

It's not BS. It's a matter of fact that this project has been taking much longer than what has been expected, not only on this forum, but even by the tenants. Just because someone has done good work in the past does not exempt them from taking a huge delay and pissing off tenants in the process. This thread isn't about me, it is about the building.

Are you suggesting that we only praise good development practices, and turn a blind eye to what appears to be a breakdown in the process of this development?

Well, Landrun has not done good work in the past. They are a new company.
Landrun has acquired a lot of valuable property in the past 2 years, been acquired by Speery Van Ness, lost their vice president, etc. What have you done in the past two years?

This project also shows how difficult it is to develop on 23rd St. They have pulled in some great tenants, but it has been VERY DIFFICULT to fill each of the spaces. Jonathan Russeell and his team have pulled in some serious tenants (beyond expectations). It is hard to get a pro-forma to be right in a difficult area, a historic restoration, and the "first of their kind".

They have been fighting to fill every space but it has been customized toward each client. 23rd St is/was nothing without Landrun. It was very difficult/impossible to pre-lease quality tenants on 23rd St. before this project. This project has given hope to the area.

Well, Landrun has not done good work in the past. They are a new company.
Landrun has acquired a lot of valuable property in the past 2 years, been acquired by Speery Van Ness, lost their vice president, etc. What have you done in the past two years?

This project also shows how difficult it is to develop on 23rd St. They have pulled in some great tenants, but it has been VERY DIFFICULT to fill each of the spaces. Jonathan Russeell and his team have pulled in some serious tenants (beyond expectations). It is hard to get a pro-forma to be right in a difficult area, a historic restoration, and the "first of their kind".

They have been fighting to fill every space but it has been customized toward each client. 23rd St is/was nothing without Landrun. It was very difficult/impossible to pre-lease quality tenants on 23rd St. before this project. This project has given hope to the area.

Laughable statement.

Well, Landrun has not done good work in the past. They are a new company.
Landrun has acquired a lot of valuable property in the past 2 years, been acquired by Speery Van Ness, lost their vice president, etc. What have you done in the past two years?

This project also shows how difficult it is to develop on 23rd St. They have pulled in some great tenants, but it has been VERY DIFFICULT to fill each of the spaces. Jonathan Russeell and his team have pulled in some serious tenants (beyond expectations). It is hard to get a pro-forma to be right in a difficult area, a historic restoration, and the "first of their kind".

They have been fighting to fill every space but it has been customized toward each client. 23rd St is/was nothing without Landrun. It was very difficult/impossible to pre-lease quality tenants on 23rd St. before this project. This project has given hope to the area.

wow, what a homer...what is your affiliation with Landrun? Bottom line, I am thankful that they are re-developing The Rise, but it aint done yet. When it is done and we are able to see the final product and tenants they attract, then and only then will they get the kudos you think they have earned.

At least LandRun bought this building. Unfinished, it looks 1,000x better than it did filled with crap, having that awful facade. It's a shame it is taking so long and a shame they've lost a tenant. I suspect development inexperience is playing a role in this. But I don't remember any of our more experienced developers stepping up to the plate on this. I'm disappointed it is taking so long, but grateful the reno is happening at all.

This project is definitely moving slow, but Pizzeria Gusto and Pump Bar aren't exactly flying along and the are much smaller and weren't piled to the ceiling with crap to begin with. They are being built up by owner/operators instead of building owners which seems to be the only difference. I would rather a development take an extra year then sit vacant and unmaintained (cough...cough...Tower Theatre).

At least LandRun bought this building. Unfinished, it looks 1,000x better than it did filled with crap, having that awful facade. It's a shame it is taking so long and a shame they've lost a tenant. I suspect development inexperience is playing a role in this. But I don't remember any of our more experienced developers stepping up to the plate on this. I'm disappointed it is taking so long, but grateful the reno is happening at all.

I agree 100%. As long as progress is being made I have time to wait. 10 years from now no one is going to care that it took extra time, but they are going to love the historic facades. On the other hand, some of the other downtown projects that progressed quickly will look like crap in 10 years and no one is going to care how fast they got built either. In fact, they will probably blame the speed for the problem. In short, give me quality over speed any day. I'm in it for the long haul.

It's going to be a great project when finished and will go a very long way towards 23rd taking a huge step forward.

Other than FlashBack RetroPub, I am not aware of any other tenants planning to leave. In a years time, I'm sure the delays will be forgotten.

Just to clarify, the delays don't bother me so much…but to hell with the idea that LandRun is even remotely the only people responsible for the development of 23rd. In fact, when they open the Rise and are wildly successful (and they will be)…they really will owe a lot to all the people who *actually* stuck out their neck on 23rd like the Mathis/Lower group and AGE, all of whom were well established on 23rd long before HM Liquidation even sold.

Land acquisition, financing, pre-leasing always seems to be things that take the longest and are the toughest to complete, not the construction, that looks to be at a standstill. Thats just whats most mind boggling to me.

Just to clarify, the delays don't bother me so much…but to hell with the idea that LandRun is even remotely the only people responsible for the development of 23rd. In fact, when they open the Rise and are wildly successful (and they will be)…they really will owe a lot to all the people who *actually* stuck out their neck on 23rd like the Mathis/Lower group and AGE, all of whom were well established on 23rd long before HM Liquidation even sold.

Don't forget Keith & Heather Paul, who were really the first with Cheever's and now four other projects in the district, and Ben Sellers, who did a great job across the street from The Rise at the 600 NW 23rd building, with Pizza 23 and Orange leaf and a bunch of office tenants.

Don't forget Keith & Heather Paul, who were really the first with Cheever's and now four other projects in the district, and Ben Sellers, who did a great job across the street from The Rise at the 600 NW 23rd building, with Pizza 23 and Orange leaf and a bunch of office tenants.

AGE = A Good Egg

Just learned that Fedora -- the cigar lounge that was to have the roof-top deck in this project -- has bolted for Automobile Alley:

Fedora - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Fedora)

Just learned that Fedora -- the cigar lounge that was to have the roof-top deck in this project -- has bolted for Automobile Alley:

Fedora - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Fedora)

Is that sound I hear dominoes?

This place is easily becoming the new Casa de los Milagros on Classen & NW Expressway, in terms of construction time.

The space Fedora is leaving behind is pretty great, so I'm sure it will be leased once they get further along in construction.

I'm still have serious doubts about them ever getting further along in construction.

i'm still have serious doubts about them ever getting further along in construction.

ever?

I'm still have serious doubts about them ever getting further along in construction.

Well that's a bit extreme, don't you think?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They have poured SOME concrete...

Well that's a bit extreme, don't you think?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I meant it more tongue-in-cheek than it came across and normally, I'd say yes. But with this development, I'm not so sure. It really seems like there have been a lot of things going awry and I hope Land Run overcomes them all.

And please forgive the nonsensical grammar in my previous post. I should quit drinking that early. :p

I walked by after lunch and thought I saw drywall up in one of the store fronts. They have a long way to go on all 3 buildings.

I walked all the way around the building and while on the south side, I remembered they have a good half+ of the block to the south and I'm kind of wishing all this land fell into other hands.

I think Fedora is a much better fit for 23rd St. In AA they could possibly fall between the cracks.

I think Fedora is a much better fit for 23rd St. In AA they could possibly fall between the cracks.

I don't think so, it works either way. There will be another restaurant next door, and with the Chophouse and others, it's great infill and AA looks to be the best few blocks of dining in the city.

Steve's update.

Most tenants stick with The Rise as redevelopment suffers through more delays in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/most-tenants-stick-with-the-rise-as-redevelopment-suffers-through-more-delays-in-oklahoma-city/article/5200386)


Russell acknowledges he is frustrated with the delays as well, but still has the support of most of the tenants as he battles against an unexpectedly complicated site.

“We changed a couple of tenants, but we’re set to open 100 percent occupied, and we’re moving forward,” Russell said.

I saw drywall in one of the spaces as well. There was a lot more steel up today on the NE corner and they've poured concrete half walls as well.

Most tenants stick with The Rise as redevelopment suffers through more delays in Oklahoma City | News OK (http://newsok.com/most-tenants-stick-with-the-rise-as-redevelopment-suffers-through-more-delays-in-oklahoma-city/article/5200386)

Steve's update.

Most tenants stick with The Rise as redevelopment suffers through more delays in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/most-tenants-stick-with-the-rise-as-redevelopment-suffers-through-more-delays-in-oklahoma-city/article/5200386)

I'm really glad AGE is staying to help anchor this thing. In flashback and fedora's defense, its a lot easier to deal with delays when you already have multiple successful restaurants than when you're trying to secure financing and putting all your work into your first restaurant. Hopefully Russell will be able to replace them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^

Exactly.

For both FlashBack and Fedora, this was to be the first venture and they've had money going out for a couple of years, with no real set date on when this project would be finished, after being way off the mark in previous estimates. And no end in sight.

Now saying "winter" which would mean early next year at the earliest.

Several of the other tenants have other locations as well, which makes their situations very different.

I still don't understand the "coming fall 2013 sign". If I remember correctly, I don't think that sign even existed until late spring '13 so I am not sure how they ever expected to complete this project in less than a year. This whole deal smells of incompetence.

I still don't understand the "coming fall 2013 sign". If I remember correctly, I don't think that sign even existed until late spring '13 so I am not sure how they ever expected to complete this project in less than a year. This whole deal smells of incompetence.

They had to move a sewer line. I recently had to relocate 80 feet of 12 inch water line, shifting it about two feet. It took about six months to get all the approvals and to have a city inspector available to oversee the work. By the description in the article, I would guess that this project required far more detailed engineering and thus more rigorous review by the city and more difficult time scheduling a city inspector. The folks at 420 W. Main are very nice and work quite hard, but they can make a shambles of your schedule in very short order, not to mention your budget.

They had to move a sewer line. I recently had to relocate 80 feet of 12 inch water line, shifting it about two feet. It took about six months to get all the approvals and to have a city inspector available to oversee the work. By the description in the article, I would guess that this project required far more detailed engineering and thus more rigorous review by the city and more difficult time scheduling a city inspector. The folks at 420 W. Main are very nice and work quite hard, but they can make a shambles of your schedule in very short order, not to mention your budget.


so take the sign down immediately.

Apparently the skilled construction team at The Rise busted a water line today. At least that means they were working...but come on!!!

The city busted that attempting to put my water valve on the main. It also brought their attention to the line break on Dewey which has caused a sinkhole on 24th and the water table to rise so high they can't get the pond to dry up in the parking lot to prep for concrete. This also cost me 6 tons of gravel to make a bed for my compulsory 500, yes 500 gallon grease trap.

Some serious fingers are being pointed in the wrong direction of Landrun. Who by the way. Own their own contracting company. Albeit they are specialized in NEW construction. We can't all be flintco.

The city busted that attempting to put my water valve on the main. It also brought their attention to the line break on Dewey which has caused a sinkhole on 24th and the water table to rise so high they can't get the pond to dry up in the parking lot to prep for concrete. This also cost me 6 tons of gravel to make a bed for my compulsory 500, yes 500 gallon grease trap.

Some serious fingers are being pointed in the wrong direction of Landrun. Who by the way. Own their own contracting company. Albeit they are specialized in NEW construction. We can't all be flintco.

My bad, I was told otherwise.

Flashback continues to rip Land Run and Russell on twitter today.

Flashback continues to rip Land Run and Russell on twitter today.

I saw that. Not exactly professional.

I saw that. Not exactly professional.

Over the last several months, I have been in communication with one of the FlashBack owners and he and I spoke again today.

The reason he is doing this is because Russell is quoted in that article as saying: "Russell dismisses Rodriguez’s complaints, saying he has maintained communication with tenants and that tenants also were always free to ask for updates."

I was told that after many delays, FlashBack had to pressure Russell to meet with them in April, at which time a June completion date was promised. In late May when it became clear they were nowhere close to completion, a subordinate of Russell's (who wouldn't respond directly) promised August.

FlashBack does not feel LandRun communicated well at all, and responses only came after lots of concerned appeals. And even then, they were given multiple promises that were not only broken but not communicated. LandRun -- according to FlashBack -- merely let the next promised date approach without providing updates or revised timelines.

Keep in mind that FlashBack had been booking reunions, events and watch parties based on these various promises. Not only did the missed deadlines cause them a lot of business, it also has impacted their credibility, which is especially important when you are trying to get a business of the ground.

So, they took to Twitter last month to get their side of the story out, and continue to do that now.

Pete, what you just typed was a rational explanation of their view of the circumstances. Flashback's Twitter feed, I feel, was unprofessional in how it handled the issue. It's okay to be upset, but when conducting business in a relatively small community, a little decorum goes a long way.

I have no insight into the situation other than what's in this treat, Steve's article, and Flashback's twitter feed. Based only on that, LandRun seems like a well intentioned developer who ran into some unfortunate set backs, who couldn't tell when their project would be complete. Flashback just seems mad.

Pete, what you just typed was a rational explanation of their view of the circumstances. Flashback's Twitter feed, I feel, was unprofessional in how it handled the issue. It's okay to be upset, but when conducting business in a relatively small community, a little decorum goes a long way.

I have no insight into the situation other than what's in this treat, Steve's article, and Flashback's twitter feed. Based only on that, LandRun seems like a well intentioned developer who ran into some unfortunate set backs, who couldn't tell when their project would be complete. Flashback just seems mad.


I'd be mad to. Setbacks are part of the game. no project seems to ever come in on time or on budget and the entire process is frustrating, However it is more frustrating when there is a lack of communication. people want to know what they are dealing with and sure things change and when those things change you need to communicate it with the people who are depending on a completion date.

These weren't just typical delays -- LandRun has been missing the mark in a way that can be measured in years, not weeks or months.

And, after promises were repeatedly made, the inability to meet those dates was not communicated; at least according to the guys at FlashBack.

Pump Bar and Pizzeria Gusto are in a different situation because they are in separate buildings from the other Rise tenants. Fortunately for them, they've been able to get into their space and start their work. Both are pretty far along.

Now imagine you are Fedora or FlashBack waiting, waiting... Seeing almost zero progress... No one giving them updates... Deadlines coming and going... Money going out and no ability to bring any in. AND you've already got a lot of sunk costs in plans and marketing that is lost if you simply pick up and move and start all over again at the beginning.

Then you add on top of all that changes to their space without prior consent and a general lack of concern/regard/communication (their side of it) , and you can see why they are upset.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset. I would be livid. I'm actually kind of mad it's not open yet, and I'm just a potential customer/guy who lives in the general area. Fedora publicly handled the situation with grace. Flashback did not. That was my only point.

One thing I wanted to mention is that Jose Rodriguez was Director of Sales & Marketing for Aloft in Deep Deuce all throughout the long delays that project encountered.

So, it's fair to say he understands development setbacks and what happens when you are on the other side of the table as the property owner/manager; taking deposits and making promises and then communicating when bad news has to be delivered.


Frankly, one of the things that I feel is unhealthy and even constraining in the OKC business community is the idea that no matter the outrageous/unethical behavior of another party, everyone urges you to "get along" and stay on the high road. The overwhelming sentiment you should be outwardly nice and polite even if it's not deserved or sincere.

But there are times when people need to be called out, even if that causes some rancor and uncomfortable shuffling of feet.

So, in this case, perhaps FlashBack should be commended rather than condemned for sticking their necks out. At least they have provided a different perspective than the "old buildings are complicated" mantra, when it's been clear for quite a while there is more to all this.

I disagree with people professionally. I'm not coming at this from a position that everyone should "get along." I simply think their message, and very legitimate complaints, would have been more effective had it been delivered with an even temper, and not "calling BULL****!!!"

I disagree with people professionally. I'm not coming at this from a position that everyone should "get along." I simply think their message, and very legitimate complaints, would have been more effective had it been delivered with an even temper, and not "calling BULL****!!!"

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just trying to present another perspective that I've gained through following this situation for a long time.

And didn't mean you were advocating the "get along" mentality, just using the opportunity to point out how it is often used in oppressive ways in OKC, especially by those with power.

Can't we all just get along... I mean fight to the death?:rude:

Pete and I are both pretty agreeable. Maybe that's why we both fit in in OKC?

Pete, I know your perspective is different, having actually talked to the owners. I hope they do well in whatever location they decide to go with.

One thing I wanted to mention is that Jose Rodriguez was Director of Sales & Marketing for Aloft in Deep Deuce all throughout the long delays that project encountered.

So, it's fair to say he understands development setbacks and what happens when you are on the other side of the table as the property owner/manager; taking deposits and making promises and then communicating when bad news has to be delivered.


Frankly, one of the things that I feel is unhealthy and even constraining in the OKC business community is the idea that no matter the outrageous/unethical behavior of another party, everyone urges you to "get along" and stay on the high road. The overwhelming sentiment you should be outwardly nice and polite even if it's not deserved or sincere.

But there are times when people need to be called out, even if that causes some rancor and uncomfortable shuffling of feet.

So, in this case, perhaps FlashBack should be commended rather than condemned for sticking their necks out. At least they have provided a different perspective than the "old buildings are complicated" mantra, when it's been clear for quite a while there is more to all this.

A million times this. And this phony baloney is promoted by some media people as well -- as well as some posters on this board.

I got ripped to high heaven for very explicitly criticizing my dining experience at Vast. I was told I knew nothing about food. I was accused of being a sourpuss. I was told I just had some axe to grind.

Well guess what? Vast has now fired their whole genius staff.

It's one thing to be bchris and make ridiculously negative comments but it's something else to make honest critiques.

A million times this. And this phony baloney is promoted by some media people as well -- as well as some posters on this board.

I got ripped to high heaven for very explicitly criticizing my dining experience at Vast. I was told I knew nothing about food. I was accused of being a sourpuss. I was told I just had some axe to grind.

Well guess what? Vast has now fired their whole genius staff.

It's one thing to be bchris and make ridiculously negative comments but it's something else to make honest critiques.

This. And, in reference to the Flashback v Rise issue, social media is a great way to warn others of potentially poor business partners and contractors. It's also one outlet for frustration, but probably not the best one. It's fine to vocal about perceived shortcomings of a land Run.

Btw flashback published an apology for their earlier outburst and explained their frustration more eloquently

Decorum prevails. Say what you want; the high road is usually the right road.

Decorum prevails. Say what you want; the high road is usually the right road.

Right, but I think the argument being made is that the high-road isn't always shrouded. Sometimes the high road involves calling people out…But there's always more than 2 roads to take, and you can be both right and wrong in how you deal with something, as it seems that Flashback may have been today.

A million times this. And this phony baloney is promoted by some media people as well -- as well as some posters on this board.

I got ripped to high heaven for very explicitly criticizing my dining experience at Vast. I was told I knew nothing about food. I was accused of being a sourpuss. I was told I just had some axe to grind.

Well guess what? Vast has now fired their whole genius staff.

It's one thing to be bchris and make ridiculously negative comments but it's something else to make honest critiques.

Ha…I still definitely maintain that critique was over the top…I know that because I can still faintly remember it, and after working in restaurants for a long time, I assure you I rarely read/hear a memorable critique ;)

Right, but I think the argument being made is that the high-road isn't always shrouded. Sometimes the high road involves calling people out…But there's always more than 2 roads to take, and you can be both right and wrong in how you deal with something, as it seems that Flashback may have been today.
In my own business endeavors I have more than once been dealt a bad hand by folks who deserved to be called out for it. A few times it has involved people who deserved to be sued, and/or to be put on blast in the media. In a couple of cases it involved people who rightly deserved a good ass whipping, up close and personal. I'm sure this happens to just about everybody who is engaged in business at some point, actually.

There are people and issues talked about regularly on this very board that I could add context to and put in a very unfavorable light if I chose to. But I choose not to; I bite my tongue and I move to the next thread.

Personally I have found that the more time/effort/energy I've spent trying to right those wrongs, extract justice, or ruin the reputation of the other party, the more it has robbed me of energy, momentum, and my own reputation, despite ME being the one wronged in the first place. Even prevailing in lawsuits often rings pretty hollow; the lawyers usually get most of it (or even all of it), and you've spent valuable money, time, energy and personal capital in the pursuit of revenge when you could have used those things to build something instead.

Negativity breeds negativity, and nobody wants to hear me bitch about being wronged. I have personally learned to take those experiences as instructive incidents. They teach me who not to do business with in the future, what types of situations to avoid, and how to protect myself better going forward.

And at the end of the day, people who are bad or unethical or just plain wrong are almost always exposed. It's not my job to dispense justice, or to spend energy on petty revenge, likely harming my own reputation in the bargain. Is there an obligation to turn in a lawbreaker? Of course. Are lawsuits sometimes required? Unfortunately, yes. But is it my obligation to publicly call out everyone who sucks at business, or at being a human, or who has wronged me? Nope. They'll get theirs, with or without me. That's just the way I see it. And it has nothing to do with some stifling cultural requirement to "just get along."

What Urbanized said

Like

Here's some pictures of the work going on at the rise. The sewer is the main delay through avenues like public works, planning, committees that meet once a month, extensions, etc. It's smack in the middle of the parking lot. These are unknowns that were not on any of the city's maps or surveys.

89498950895189528953895489558956895789588959896089 61896289638964896589668967896889698970897189728973 8974897589768977

All this discussion aside, I think it's a super special development. The proof will be in the pudding. And I'm really looking forward to making the big push to turn uptown into a modern main street style consumer district.

Here's a link to The Pump's (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Pump+Bar&p=820569#post820569) progress.

Thanks for these pics.. thats the best look we have had so far at the progress.. looks further than most suspected but of course a good ways to go.. I am really hoping it is a special development when finished. I am still optimistic

New central AC units have arrived!

8993

I sure hope someone keeps those things bolted down and guarded from thieves. Just ask the folks at Grandad's about their AC units that were stolen from the ROOF of the building!

The roofers are up there daily as well. I can smell em torch down flashing what must be the curbs for these beasts. Also check out my 3,000ft and counting amateur low line install. 90029003