The Case Against High-School Sports - Amanda Ripley - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-case-against-high-school-sports/309447/)

Interesting read -- thanks for posting that.


Sports are embedded in American schools in a way they are not almost anywhere else. Yet this difference hardly ever comes up in domestic debates about America’s international mediocrity in education. (The U.S. ranks 31st on the same international math test.) The challenges we do talk about are real ones, from undertrained teachers to entrenched poverty. But what to make of this other glaring reality, and the signal it sends to children, parents, and teachers about the very purpose of school?

When I surveyed about 200 former exchange students last year, in cooperation with an international exchange organization called AFS, nine out of 10 foreign students who had lived in the U.S. said that kids here cared more about sports than their peers back home did. A majority of Americans who’d studied abroad agreed.

It's not just sports in America, it's the NUMBER of sports. Most other countries only care about soccer and maybe one or two other sports and certainly, girls/women sports have far less participation.

But the article assumes that the time, energy and money put into sports could merely shifted to academics and that would yield a better societal value. However, I don't think that is the case. Just because a kid isn't playing school sports doesn't mean he or she will take that extra time and put it into school. Or that spending more money on math would necessarily result in better proficiency.

It's an interesting debate, though, because the U.S. is very unique in the way sports are embedded in all our schools.

Just because a kid isn't playing school sports doesn't mean he or she will take that extra time and put it into school. Or that spending more money on math would necessarily result in better proficiency.

Exactly, it's just not that easy.

[QUOTE=. Just because a kid isn't playing school sports doesn't mean he or she will take that extra time and put it into school. Or that spending more money on math would necessarily result in better proficiency.[/QUOTE]

I agree. However if you are denying the student body as a whole resources that are diverted to athletics you are denying others the opportunity to have better proficiency in academics or other extra curricular activities that do not require athletic prowess. This does not even address the disparity in funds allocated between boys and girls sports.

Interesting read -- thanks for posting that.



It's not just sports in America, it's the NUMBER of sports. Most other countries only care about soccer and maybe one or two other sports and certainly, girls/women sports have far less participation.

But the article assumes that the time, energy and money put into sports could merely shifted to academics and that would yield a better societal value. However, I don't think that is the case. Just because a kid isn't playing school sports doesn't mean he or she will take that extra time and put it into school. Or that spending more money on math would necessarily result in better proficiency.

It's an interesting debate, though, because the U.S. is very unique in the way sports are embedded in all our schools.

I'd maybe understand if schools weren't cutting funding to gobs of other programs that are not sports-related, esp. the arts. Not to mention schools that have never (or nearly never) had certain programs. For instance, there is and was no dance program at my high school. I didn't even realize some high schools HAD dance programs.

How many schools have really poor language of sociology departments if they have any of those at all?

What are the resources schools have available for sending US students to other countries to learn in a new environment and language? Are they sufficient and respectable given the stature of that school?

Sports are great, don't get me wrong. They have the ability to teach important skills such as teamwork, practice/work ethic, rapid thinking processes. But how many kids graduate without the knowledge of how to budget?

But how many kids graduate without the knowledge of how to budget?

Not that is has anything to do with cutting sports, but it's criminal that schools don't have a basic personal finance course for all HS seniors.

Everyone's too busy teaching to a test.

Not that is has anything to do with cutting sports, but it's criminal that schools don't have a basic personal finance course for all HS seniors.

Actually not having personal finance classes, art appreciation, music appreciation has everything to do with sports if sports are taking limited funds away. Hey sports are great, but like drivers education, let the participants fund the activity.

But it's not just about sports, it's about how funding is spent on everything else in schools. For example, budgeting could be a part of math classes.

And there are certainly art and music classes in virtually every school.


For years, I ran a nonprofit that provided programs in Los Angeles Unified middle and high schools, and some of the 'worst' ones at that. And they all had plenty of arts and music classes. They were also all required to take Life Skills that did teach them how to budget and do basic things at home. They also had access to a lot of computer classes, vo-tech (culinary, etc.) and a bunch of other things.

Our public schools are not as bad as is frequently portrayed. The real issues in these schools is broken families and lack of discipline. For a lot of these kids, it's as simple as no one has ever really asked or expected much out of them.


I really don't think sports is the problem here, it's just easy to point out because the U.S. is unusual in how we so heavily integrate them into all our schools. But it certainly is not the only thing that is unique and therefore drawing direct correlations between that and math proficiency is more than a little spurious.

Sports are by no means the problem. But they do seem to be a bit of a sacred cow.

High school athletics is as much a part of most schools as the school itself. It promotes pride, competition, spirit and just a whole lot of fun. Athletics in OKC public schools is as poor as anywhere as I have seen in the country. From the time I was in HS in the 1970's, there has been virtually no investment in athletics. Consequently, the students in many OKC public schools couldn't give a hoot about the school. Do we need to put athletics and football up on a pedestal the way they do in TX, no. But at a time we need to promote physical fitness and health, we need to teach kids that competition and learning how to compete leads to success in the future. Yes, our tax dollars should go to promote HS athletics.

How about this: establishing private leagues that have their own funding through participation fees, ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, and sponsorships. If they use a publicly owned facility for games then they would pay rent. The only real connection to the school system would be that the athlete have a minimum GPA and proper attendance. There are lots of ways the private league could be structured from a statewide league for all sports to local leagues in a specific sport.

A similar model could also be used at the collegiate level. Just make college football a semi-pro league and pay the players. The only association between the school and athlete would be that they attend the University and maintain some minimum GPA. There would be no scholarships or anything. They play - they get paid. The team would have to pay a licensing fee to the University for use of the school name and if they play in an on-campus stadium/arena/field/pool they pay rent. To go along with this the University could offer Pro-Athlete as a major. Classes in this major could include courses like Contract Negotiation, Coaching, Product Endorsement, Officiating, Sports Journalism, Rules and Regulations, Sports Finance, Interview and Public Speaking, Sports Broadcasting, Play by Play, Statistics, Sportsmanship, etc...

Sports are a good thing, but I do think some schools, especially in rural areas go overboard. I am talking about the schools that have state of the art football stadiums and gear but have 15 year old textbooks. I've seen it numerous times. HS athletics though are important to promote not only school pride and self esteem but health and fitness as well. Maybe have a limit as to the percentage of the school budget that goes to sports.

Sports are a good thing, but I do think some schools, especially in rural areas go overboard. I am talking about the schools that have state of the art football stadiums and gear but have 15 year old textbooks. I've seen it numerous times. HS athletics though are important to promote not only school pride and self esteem but health and fitness as well. Maybe have a limit as to the percentage of the school budget that goes to sports.

To some extent though if you are going to use promoting health and fitness as the reasoning for them getting money; there may need to be a requirement that the recreational athletic/gym/nutrition programs get at least a percentage of the varsity programs budget. Since they can affect a much larger percentage of the student body (unless you are at a very small school where everyone is on one or more of the teams) and often those kind of classes will be squeezed before the varsity teams.

I agree. However if you are denying the student body as a whole resources that are diverted to athletics you are denying others the opportunity to have better proficiency in academics or other extra curricular activities that do not require athletic prowess. This does not even address the disparity in funds allocated between boys and girls sports.

That statement presupposes the notion of diversion - that resources intended for education are being rerouted in some implicitly sinister way to prevent kids from learning their ABC's. Most municipalities post bond issues that voters must approve to finance various aspects of sports programs, right along with new classrooms and schools, buses, and resources. And most big sports programs have outside parent-based support organizations that work months out of the year to raise funds from outside sources through numerous fundraisers and in-kind donations/support to make those programs successful. People also fail to realize the ancillary monies the districts realize from ancillary activities - concession sales, merchandise sales, ticket sales, etc. It just isn't as simple as the article would like to imply.

The notion that school districts are just hurling arbitrary tax money at sports programs simply isn't accurate. Is this to say the overall funding strategies of public schools is sound? Of course not. But if the voters in a district want sports programs as an extension of their civic identity, enough to get bond issues put on a ballot, and enough to vote for them, seems to me that's the essence of the way the country is supposed to work. Its not perfect, and there are obvious inequities, but stories like this that create the illusion that there's a one-for-one correspondence between dollars spent on sports and, thus, not spent on academics is just so much journalistic hyperbole.

This is what several principles and countless teachers have told me.
Sports literally saves some kids from a life time of trouble.
Good sports teams boost the schools moral, including staff, when nothing else can.
In a small town a successful sports team is something the entire town rally’s behind, building a can do attitude that bleeds into other aspects of the community.

Compared to many districts in Texas very few Oklahoma school districts go over board on spending for sports.

This does not even address the disparity in funds allocated between boys and girls sports.

I am so sick of that argument. More people go to boys event than girls events but everybody should get equal funds? No.

The Case Against High-School Sports - Amanda Ripley - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-case-against-high-school-sports/309447/)

"The United States routinely spends more tax dollars per high-school athlete than per high-school math student—unlike most countries worldwide. And we wonder why we lag in international education rankings?"

Are we saying that there aren't any math students playing high school athletics?

The resulting 'lag in international education rankings' can be attributed to our basic core subject teachings which we abandoned during that period of time because we wanted to include other curriculum choices before students got the basics mastered. Plus there are other variables, like the student population base we select to test. Did we place enough emphasis on basic education? The key lies in doing a balancing act with teaching the basics, the arts and intergrating current events into the curriculum.

What those test results tell us is limited to its intended scope and use. How are we using these results and comparisons. Example, the ACT is a readiness assessment tool designed as an 'indicator' to predict success or failure for the college freshman year; has its use expanded? The interpretative results of this test has been widely misused throughout its development by various groups.

Our schools in the U.S. test a wide range (at developmental stages) of students from various demographic populations. Are schools in other countries requiring all of their pupils to get an education? Ever wonder why some foreign countries send some of their most promising students to the United States to further their education?

As a former educator, the foreign countries only send their best students to our country. These foreign students are focused and they do value education a lot more than those of us in a country where education is taken for granted. Our public education has its challenges in that many our students in the urban setting aren't prepared when they attend school; their parents want the best for their children; however because many of these parents (themselves) didn't value their own education--they don't know how or possess the tools to get their children to the next level.

They expect too much from the underfunded and overburdened public schools to make up for what they weren't able to accomplish with their children in the ongoing preparations in priming students from home to school. These are some of the parents who are waiting around to 'win the lottery' or have they child become a 'lottery pick' to pull them from the pit of poverty. You know the odds of that happening isn't favorable.

Do we place to high an emphasis on sports? The schools are always going to be a reflection of what its community structures and values. The tests and measurements of our students vs. those on the intenational level does have merit. Schools, administrators, teachers, parents and students all have to be held accountable.

All the hype behind school athletics didn't take off until the 1980's and on when athletes started making the big bucks. Before high school sports were an extra circular activity that people enjoyed supporting because the local team was a part of the community.

We can change the course of this situation by demanding equal spending on the classroom. The only way to do that is to show up at the board meetings, PTA meetings and vote in bond elections.

The problem I see with our society today is that everybody can get angry and complain however, when it comes to doing something about we are all too busy because our favorite TV show is on, our favorite pro team is playing or whatever.

Really don't know what to think of these numbers as to how to account for the spending factors:

Are these numbers inflated by school districts which choose to build a $20 - $60 million stadium; which would include capital improvement (bond/millage) projects ?

Which atheletes are being counted?

How are math students being counted or factored into the equation? Are computers in the equation?

Are field trips being factored into the equation which is usually funded by General Fund 240.01 account money (Candy money/ vending machines)?

Which districts pay for the players insurance and if that is being factored into the equation. What's the actual equation?

Sure the articles states that there are problems and concerns. The author has good intentions; however I don't see evidence of much of that happening around here. Oklahoma City Public Schools certainly aren't spending more money on athletics as a per capita-pupil ratio.

The dumbing down of the next generations continues.......

This is a fluff article with little real information. I stopped reading at some point and started skimming, and didn't see anything that made me change my mind about the article.

As a nerd who grew up with no athletic ability, I should be predisposed to dislike sports and oppose them with every fibre of my being. However, high school sports are not a problem.

The article tells us that US students score 31st on an "international critical thinking math test". We aren't told what that test is, so we can't verify it. We aren't told how it is scored or whether 31st is that much lower than the 4th place South Koreans. Did the first place country score 94%, the second 93.97%, and so on until we're 31st with an awful 91.82%? We don't know.

Many foreign nations steer their students into more specialized schools earlier than we do. In Japan, lower performing kids are sent to vo-techs by the time they would have reached our "high school", and they aren't taking the same tests. So in the US, Joe Bob, a solid C- student, is taking the same standardized performance tests as Steve Urkel. In Japan, their version of Joe Bob does not take those tests. He's at trade school learning to put up drywall.

So the question of whether our students are underperforming relative to the rest of the world is the first thing at issue. I don't think that's been conclusively shown. The second question is whether high school sports are the cause of any underperformance that might exist. That isn't shown either.

The argument is often made that high school sports give kids an outlet. A kid who would be in danger of dropping out will instead stay in school because he likes playing football. If this is the case (and I have no evidence to show that it is), then clearly high school sports hurt our test scores, because Jimmy Bob is sticking around. Better for education, worse for test scores. I knew a lot of kids in high school who liked sports, even if they really didn't like math or English.

How dare you question the authors story! You're supposed to take all she says as truth because she is an "intellectual."

"One of the chief reasons that students' standardized test scores continue to be the most important factor in evaluating a school is deceptively simple. Most educators do not really understand why a standardized test provides a misleading estimate of a school staff's effectiveness. They should."


Educational Leadership:Using Standards and Assessments:Why Standardized Tests Don't Measure Educational Quality (http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/mar99/vol56/num06/Why-Standardized-Tests-Don't-Measure-Educational-Quality.aspx)

Many foreign nations steer their students into more specialized schools earlier than we do. In Japan, lower performing kids are sent to vo-techs by the time they would have reached our "high school", and they aren't taking the same tests. So in the US, Joe Bob, a solid C- student, is taking the same standardized performance tests as Steve Urkel. In Japan, their version of Joe Bob does not take those tests. He's at trade school learning to put up drywall.

That is awesome, I didn't know they did that. Doing that here could solve so many problems, but everyone drives it home that college is the only way to be successful, to suggest a kid enter a vocational trade is looked at as a slap in the face, so instead kids who have no business taking the same classes as those who are prepping for college get stuck and go nowhere in life (I have a family member who fits that to a T).

Well, that was only article of probably hundreds outlining how we are falling behind. It really isn't hard to substantiate the author's claims when it comes to academics.

I really do want to see the athletics ended. It bothers me a lot to see so much money and time spent on it. If we are worried about physical health, small gyms more like a YMCA would make more sense in our schools with diverse options for health improvement.

sidburgess, just curious. Did you play sports in high school or college? I ask because unless you have been there, you likely don't have any idea the life lessons a good sports program will teach participants.

So many aspects of athletics mirror life and what you will find when you get out of school. There are so many things you learn to do playing sports that will become part of your being the rest of your life. You sort of blow off whether or not the author can substantiate any of the claims she makes or whether the result has anything to do with the claimed cause given. I could go on for hours examples of how athletics can benefit most anyone who gets involved. When people don't participate, they often don't understand what it means to compete. If you live in the real world, you know competition is the underlying driver for business.

I have years of experience where I interviewed, managed and have seen so many people who don't know how to compete, don't know how to handle pressure situations and don't have the necessary self-confidence that is built in sports. I could almost foresee the probability of success of someone in my business based on the level of athletic participation in their lives.

Not everyone excels at math, literature, writing or the arts. Time and money is spent on students in each of these areas and no one argues the value of the "time and money spent" on teaching in these areas. Time and money is equally important in athletics just for what it instills in those who participate on a serious level and how it has made successes out of millions who may otherwise have seen little success in their lives without it.

sidburgess, just curious. Did you play sports in high school or college? I ask because unless you have been there, you likely don't have any idea the life lessons a good sports program will teach participants.

Why does there need to be a connection between the school and sports to learn life lessons?

My kids are homeschools also and they play plenty of sports, and to my knowledge the taxpayers don't pay for any of it. For football we played in a private league and while we did use a public facility, we paid rent. The cost was $190 per player but if you could afford the price accommodations were made. No player was turned away because his parents couldn't afford it.

Julington Creek Jaguars » NW St Johns County JDL Football (http://caaleague.org/jdl/)

Since so many on here are fond of personal attacks, please don't misunderstand what I am saying to you as an insult.

I am happy to see you participated in sports and if you did, you surely can see the benefits sports provided to you for your adult life.

I wager, however, that since you didn't attend public schools, you may not be fully aware of the extent of students in public schools who have no way out of their poverty by traditional means (reading, writing and math). I am not talking about the minute percentage that are exceptional athletes that go onto pro sports. I'll just give one example of a white kid who went to my high school. His mother left when he was in elementary school and he never knew who his mother was. His grandmother who raised him and had him on the right path was a religious fanatic and never really showed him what family is. Consequently, his high school coaches were the only male role models he had and his soul is locker room philosophy. His HS athletics taught him about health, drive and determination, competition and winning. He was able to walk on and play football at a major college and went on to financial services. What he learned and how athletics were a part of his being helped him to be a very successful financial planner who provides services to corporate executives. You will find that athletics and competition can go hand in hand with being a successful sales person. He has been very successful but has a very moral foundation (less you assume he is a crooked financial advisory).

I could give thousands of examples of similar situations, not just for white kids but for minorities as well. They made themselves successful based on athletics and would never have made it out of the "hood" the traditional way were it not for athletics.

My kids are homeschools also and they play plenty of sports, and to my knowledge the taxpayers don't pay for any of it. For football we played in a private league and while we did use a public facility, we paid rent. The cost was $190 per player but if you could afford the price accommodations were made. No player was turned away because his parents couldn't afford it. Julington Creek Jaguars » NW St Johns County JDL Football (http://caaleague.org/jdl/)

Glad they do, but for millions of underpriviledged, they won't go looking for athletic groups to join. It needs to be right there, in their faces. Were it not for high school sports, they would be on the streets. You provide a guiding force for your kids. Tens of millions have no guiding force.

So what's the answer Mug - just keep turning over the parental responsibility to school and coaches? That is not a solution - that is enabling.

Not going to repeat all I have written JTF. Read my prior posts on the subject. I've got far too much experience with hiring and managing. The connection is absolute. Once again, you're not seeing the point. I gave one example and you are assuming those details cover everyone.

sidburgess - you're making my point for me. Our incarceration rate would be higher were it not for HS sports. All you have to do is listen to some of the stories about players on college football Saturday. Read up on Adrian Peterson (formerly of OU and now with the Minnesota VIkings). His dad was a drug dealer but he saw from his parents what sports could do for you. He's made it big. In an office of my company I worked at here in Denver, there are no less than 5 former athletes working in it, 2 of which are African Americans who would never have gone to college were it not for sports. They are outstanding sales reps because of skills learned in sports. Not math.

The fact of the matter is that underprivileged kids DONT get world-class teaching. Schools routinely ship the lowest performing teachers to the lowest performing schools. Most schools in the 2nd largest school district here in CO don't speak English. Aurora, CO has 120 different native languages represented. You're number 1 above sounds nice but it doesn't happen in reality. Change things so it does and I might be willing to concede more to you. Right now, no way.

Me too. I've sifted through hundreds of applications. High Schoolers who can't even complete a sentence is a real turnoff for me both as a parent and a taxpayer. I'm appalled at how many there are. Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree because I sure don't see the correlation. And I've hired sports players. Lots of them. They didn't show up on time at rates better than those who were the nerds and studied at the library with me.

I'm glad you've sifted through hundreds of applications. I've seen hundreds of people actually perform the work for over 30 years. Athletes know how to compete. They know how to show self-confidence and confidence in their work. Athletes know how to work under pressure and know how to be self-disciplined. Athletes know how to talk to people and how to present a plan. It's far easier to teach someone a sales presentation skill set who is aggressive and works hard. Athletes are some of the best sales employees, work coaches and teachers you will ever find because they are fearless.

Physical activity has nothing to do with smartness. Organized athletics in decent high school programs teaches dozens of invaluable skills and behaviors that millions of kids simply aren't getting from math, reading, writing and history.

I'm glad you've sifted through hundreds of applications. I've seen hundreds of people actually perform the work for over 30 years. Athletes know how to compete. They know how to show self-confidence and confidence in their work. Athletes know how to work under pressure and know how to be self-disciplined. Athletes know how to talk to people and how to present a plan. It's far easier to teach someone a sales presentation skill set who is aggressive and works hard. Athletes are some of the best sales employees, work coaches and teachers you will ever find because they are fearless.

Physical activity has nothing to do with smartness. Organized athletics in decent high school programs teaches dozens of invaluable skills and behaviors that millions of kids simply aren't getting from math, reading, writing and history.

You’re absolutely hitting it out of the ball park.

Everybody learns differently and is motivated for different reasons.

Clearly there are different paths to success in life and for a pretty decent % of people sports helps.

For every athlete in Mugs office there are a million former high school athletes who can't read.

For every athlete in Mugs office there are a million former high school athletes who can't read.


The people who have been dealing with this for decades every hour of their working day ( for a living) know that without sports there would be far more people with even worse academic problems if we didn't have sports.

Many of the problems in education start at home.
Sports is one of the few counter balances for many.

Except that the data doesn't actually support that. At all. :)

Data can't measure what I'm talking about.
Real life experience from those on the front lines of this issue will tell you more than any data.

I don't think all kids are teachable to the levels Sid thinks they can be. Goes back to the vo-tech post. Spending money on a kid that doesn't have high end potential won't make them a high end performer.

This is a good discussion that has obvious meriits on both sides.

Right. :) And once you can't measure it, you've just got a belief system.

I'm not interested in your belief system. Nor are my tax dollars. I'm interested in measurable results.

I'm on and have been on the front lines for long enough to know that against my persona experiences alone, your beliefs are suspect. Thankfully, my experiences aren't needed. Neither are yours. We can count millions of them fairly easily.

I'd love for one of those people you're working with on the front lines to tell you that you can't measure the outcomes of their work. You've just got to be in their shoes to see it. To understand it.

What an awkward position for someone to take who is claiming "front line" experience.

I've been on the literal front lines. I'd take someone who can read, write, and calculate an azimuth before someone who can't and was good at sports when the bullets are flying. "Teachable" as they've been called in the thread. In 12 years, I've learned to recognize the difference. Unfortunately, the Army's standards are low enough, you can actually get into the military and not be able to read very well. Or better yet, have a passion for reading and consuming more knowledge. And like our job markets, the military is desperate for the educated. They are trying to recruit officers like never before.

But thanks for the laugh before bed. :)

I am going to trust the folks who deal with this everyday as professionals in our area first.
What I'm talking about is the middle school and High school age group

I'll accept that might be true. But I did already suggest that if that is true, is sports the best alternative? Especially when it is applied universally to even those that are teachable.

They can't hurt, but what would help is a system that recognizes kids who probably shouldn't be pigeonholed into a curriculum that only suits college bound students.

Right. :) And once you can't measure it, you've just got a belief system.

I'm not interested in your belief system. Nor are my tax dollars. I'm interested in measurable results.
"Measurable results" are one of the big reasons the public education system is in such an abysmal state. Not everything can be tested and quantified on a spreadsheet, the obsession with testing prevents learning in most students, entire years of teaching are lost because of "testing". You seem to have a "belief system" that testing actually provides something "measurable". Most people that I know who were very good at testing are not all that "smart", they just binge on information long enough to regurgitate it on a test and then purge it from their brains. That is not knowledge, they just learned to gain the system and that is what the education system has become due to governmental mandates by those who live for a spreadsheet.

Too many resources are wasted on trying to educate those who have no desire to learn and those who have no desire for college. The tech school option would be the best path for them and is something they may actually have an interest in. The world of education should be more about finding what sparks the mind of a student to excel, not how well they test so some bureaucrat can look at a spreadsheet and pontificate about it.

Can you cite those? Obviously, we'd need more than a sample of one.

What is "our area"? Do you mean geography?

Go talk to OKC public school personnel is about the best I can tell you...
What I'm telling you comes from at least a couple of dozen principles, teachers and coaches.
Sports won't save everybody but they do help save some particularly in this age group. They offer a save haven for more than a few.

The data can't measure what a successful sport program can do for the moral of students and staff.
But these people know it when they see it.

I think a clue that sports hinders education in high school is pretty much in evidence by the massive number of "special admits" that we have in big time college football. In case you don't know, the "special admissions" are for players that are nowhere close to being eligible for college admission --- except to play football and enroll in the silliest of classes. Classes that you wouldn't even find at most community colleges.

To me, the simple fact that the special admit program is as massive as it is speaks volumes about the quality of education these football and basketball players got in high school.

Couldn't agree more with this. I'd much rather offer those who aren't doing well and have been given lots of opportunity to excel at school a chance to learn a skill. I'd much rather that than they learn how to play sports.

I don't disagree with these thoughts but here to we have many that are unmotivated to learn a trade....
Many times they have been given so much free stuff that its killed nearly all of their motivation for work for a better life.

I spent a couple of tours in the 90's on Okinawa in my military days. In either jr. high or early high school every student takes a placement test and it determines their future in regards to rather or not they will be college material. The military planned an overnight operational stand down for two or three days. This was done to allow the Japanese students to get a good nights sleep for the tests.

Honestly, I think it is time we realize that not everyone is college material in our society straight out of high school. Our education system would be better suited if we built two paths for after high school. One that leads to college the other to a trade.

In my opinion, only 25% of our student population is ready for college life after high school. The rest would be better suited to start a career via the career tech system and go to college later once they have a solid idea on where they want to go. Even they don't go to college they can still make solid income doing there trade of choice. I know many people who are making a comfortable living thanks to classes at Career Tech. A few of those folks went back to school and are now working on associates and bachelors degrees.

We have to lose this idea that everyone needs to be a millionaire. We need to return to the concept of everyone has to go to work and pitch in to our society. We need to stop looking down on certain lines of work and start seeing value in every trade. The way I see it any job that pays and your employer treats you well is a good job. If your not happy with the pay, you have to go find it. Sometimes that means moving, going to school and living without a few things so you can climb the ladder to success. Not all of us can be millionaires but, we can have our own home, own a nice car if you choose to do so and be able to take a nice vacation every year.

The way I see it any job that pays and your employer treats you well is a good job. If your not happy with the pay, you have to go find it. Sometimes that means moving, going to school and living without a few things so you can climb the ladder to success. Not all of us can be millionaires but, we can have our own home, own a nice car if you choose to do so and be able to take a nice vacation every year.

We're living on different planets then, you describe the way it used to be. I agree not everyone is college material. However, the lack of blue-collar jobs hurts anyone pursuing many areas of Vocational-Technical education - most of those jobs are now in China, Mexico, Brazil, The Philippines. I'm not sure what this has to do with the barrage of sports in high school. Get rid of competitive athletics in high school and at least most kids will have a better chance at getting get a decent secondary education. That's the LEAST our society can provide our kids.

As it is today, we have many (more than you want to know) math and science teachers teaching these all important subjects as a "side job" with emergency certifications - while their true passion is coaching football and basketball. Our priorities are not just out of whack --- they are scandalous.

I don't think they should be gotten rid of because athletics do offer many communities something to do on the weekends and sense of pride in your community when the local team plays a home game. When the home team is playing many businesses benefit from the crowd attending the games. Not to mention, there are many people who are college material who would have never have a shot at college because they simply could not finance it and student loans are one of the most absurd things that we have ever done for those that do go to college. That's argument for another time.

What we need to do is bring the parents and kids back down to earth. Sports need to return to their roots of team work, building skills and working together is a team to outplay the opponent. In that environment you win some and you lose some. You appreciate a loss just as much as you do a win. We don't need million dollar stadiums, indoor practice facilities, locker room suites and fitness centers (unless the fitness center if open to all students). We need to go back to the days were being on a team taught the players life lessons and survival skills for the real world. If I had my way about it, every kid would play a sport of some type because there are so many things a person can learn from being on team working towards a common goal.

One of the problems in our world today is the fact that too many people focus on themselves instead of finding a balance of self focus and focus on the concerns of others. We are on teams no matter how hard we try to fight it rather it be your family, friends, neighbors, your coworkers, members of a civic group, as a citizen in the community or your fellow parents at your child's school. It's time to bring that sense of community back in our society where everyone is welcome and everyone is required to make a solid effort to get along with one another.

We're living on different planets then, you describe the way it used to be. I agree not everyone is college material. However, the lack of blue-collar jobs hurts anyone pursuing many areas of Vocational-Technical education - most of those jobs are now in China, Mexico, Brazil, The Philippines. I'm not sure what this has to do with the barrage of sports in high school. Get rid of competitive athletics in high school and at least most kids will have a better chance at getting get a decent secondary education. That's the LEAST our society can provide our kids.

As it is today, we have many (more than you want to know) math and science teachers teaching these all important subjects as a "side job" with emergency certifications - while their true passion is coaching football and basketball. Our priorities are not just out of whack --- they are scandalous.

Sorry, but that's absolute BS. Get rid of the track team and everyone turns into attorneys? Get rid of the football team and everyone becomes pharmacists? Dump the baseball team and everyone becomes certified plumbers and electricians? Where on earth does this nonsensical hyperbole originate? I'd be very interested to hear one objective study that positively demonstrates a causative increase in the "quality" of education brought about by the elimination of sports.

Lest someone assert that I'm some leftover HS jock, I was just the opposite - I was one of the computer department types who was happy with my good GPA and perfectly content never having come within a mile of any kind of HS sport except as a spectator. And I was able to take courses in calculus, journalism, physics, and science just fine. And let's not even get into the fact that our nation is arguably at its least fit point at any time in its history. Getting kids outside, off their rears and into some kind of sports wouldn't be a detriment at all to about 70% of the kids who come out with their waistlines rolling over their guts and have (already) started spending the fruits of an inathletic life with the joyous education in diabetes and chronic obesity.

What do I like about the H.S. sports to which I have been exposed? Groups of young men that refer to their adult sponsors with sir and ma'am; coaches that teach their kids that part of their responsibilities include serving the community that supports them with their ticket and, sometimes, tax monies. Kids that have been exposed to the notion that there is something bigger than themselves by being part of a team, part of a unified goal, one where there is absolute leadership, discipline, expectations, and hard work. I realize not every HS sports team is like that, but I'm darned thankful the ones I've seen are, and it would be a monumental mistake to pull that because of some misguided notion that its presence is somehow "compromising education."

Sorry for the rant, but this ridiculous idea that "Sports Iz Eville" just remind me of all the one-eyed paranoids who used to say the metric system was a tool of the devil....yes, sports can go too far. But so can anything. Why we can't seem to get our heads wrapped around the notion of balance escapes me.

You know - screw it. My kids aren't in the public education system and if someone has to take their order at the drive-thru it might as well be a former high school quarterback.

You know - screw it. My kids aren't in the public education system and if someone has to take their order at the drive-thru it might as well be a former high school quarterback.

Now that's the kind of grand generalization and pigeonholing that makes this country great.

You know - screw it. My kids aren't in the public education system and if someone has to take their order at the drive-thru it might as well be a former high school quarterback.

Worked with children in the Oklahoma City Public Schools when their parents got tired or home schooling them; wish I could list all the transitional adjustments those children had to make. That's not to say that all home-schooled children had problems adjusting; however in nine out of ten, they entered public education with a lot of concerns.

Wish you the best JTF with your children.

And let's not even get into the fact that our nation is arguably at its least fit point at any time in its history

Seriously. If my daughter ever attends a school that yanks physical education (or art, or music for that matter) so teachers can teach to a test more, I'm yanking her from that institution.

Seriously. If my daughter ever attends a school that yanks physical education (or art, or music for that matter) so teachers can teach to a test more, I'm yanking her from that institution.

What if they cut P.E., art, and music to keep the football team? Just for fun Google "public schools cuts music program" and "public schools cut sports program" and see if you can tell the difference between the articles that appears. In the 'music' article it talks about real cuts and in the 'sports' articles it is studies about how to make education better.

We're living on different planets then, you describe the way it used to be. I agree not everyone is college material. However, the lack of blue-collar jobs hurts anyone pursuing many areas of Vocational-Technical education - most of those jobs are now in China, Mexico, Brazil, The Philippines.
I know the construction industry in both Denver and Austin is hurting for skilled trades workers and building hasn't returned to what it was in the mid 2000's (at least in Austin). The guy who came to fix our air handler had a trainee with him and hopes he sticks with it because he has had a hard time finding help. Those are jobs that can't be shipped overseas for the most part along with technical service industries like mechanics and maintenance people. You can still make a decent living and have a comfortable life in most of these fields, it won't happen immediately but then it doesn't in most fields. I didn't start in architecture at what I make now which a few years ago it seemed like many grads thought they should start somewhere around that amount. I started in architecture in 1988 for $16,000 a year and worked my way up over the years just like most people have had to do.

A large part of the problem is expectations, my wife's nephew is battling that one all the time with his girlfriend (they have one year old twin girls). She expects to live at the same level her parents do now after 20+ years of marriage and spend as freely as they do.

Not that anyone will actually read it... but here is the link anyhow.

To Strengthen America's Public Education System, Cut School Sports (http://www.policymic.com/articles/3367/to-strengthen-america-s-public-education-system-cut-school-sports)

How come all my fellow right-wingers want to privatize every facet of government - except high school sports? A good teapartier should jump at the chance to rid the taxpayer of this cost. Oh well, it isn't the first time my teaparty cohorts have let me down.

Not that anyone will actually read it... but here is the link anyhow.

To Strengthen America's Public Education System, Cut School Sports (http://www.policymic.com/articles/3367/to-strengthen-america-s-public-education-system-cut-school-sports)


How come all my fellow right-wingers want to privatize every facet of government - except high school sports? A good teapartier should jump at the chance to rid the taxpayer of this cost. Oh well, it isn't the first time my teaparty cohorts have let me down.


Just read that conceptual model 'position paper' about taking sports & extracurricular activities out of the schools.There is a premise behind its movement; however it needs to be positioned in the right place. IMHO it isn't worth the paper it was written on or paper used post out house dried corn cobs. Times are changing as with the various models in education which is getting innovative in some areas and recycling in others. As teachers, we have to adjust and adapt to the ever-changing environments in which we live.

There was a movement back in the 80s to cut budgets and stay with the core subjects. Some school districts piloted several programs in selected schools and it was a disaster. Schools should reflect their communities as much as possible. Children have to be able to engage in some type of mental, social, physical and psychological development. That is where physical education classes, arts, science fairs, field trip excursions etc., provide a different aspect of learning.

Sure that old familiar saying, 'we are going to hit the books' has a ring to it. There is more to teaching & learning than just mental challenges and obtaining a subjective teacher grade or the resulting scores of a standardized test. School districts have to tailor curriculum around the basics and core learning where concepts complement, cultivate & circulate the learning experience.

We've moved primarily from Jr. High Schools to the Middle School concept because having 6,7,8 configuration was better for that age level group vs. the 7,8,9 Jr. High Schools. The ninth graders were too mature for the 7th & 8th graders and the 6 graders weren't a good mix for the 1-4,5 group.

Children can't be warehoused and grouped like cattle and feed just one grain--they need to graze in their own world.

Oklahoma has seen some changes as they have year-round (calendar) schools much like the neighboring state of Texas. Thank God someone reminded them that they don't have to concern themselves with the summer crop harvest. Teachers would spend nine months teaching objectives to children; that long break allowed them to unravel much of what teachers taught and much of what students learned. The 2 to 2.5 months (summer long break) was too long. Many times resulting in unwinding all the things you taught them--then it would take teachers a full month to get learning back into circulation beginning the new school calendar year.

Children can not go to bed hungry, It distracts the mind for more important things. Good education should be tied in with good nutrition. A little less focus on sports and a better focus on well rounded citizens would be a good thing. No matter how many exotic mechanicals the bright boys come up with it always takes Vo-Tech Grads to keep it running.

Children can not go to bed hungry, It distracts the mind for more important things. Good education should be tied in with good nutrition. A little less focus on sports and a better focus on well rounded citizens would be a good thing. No matter how many exotic mechanicals the bright boys come up with it always takes Vo-Tech Grads to keep it running.

Agree!

Good nutrition goes hand and hand with food for thought. Sports & Extracurricular Activities does have its place in schools and should not in anyway overshadow instruction. The best teachers find a way to address students' individual needs. It takes a high energy person to toggle through teaching methods and target those individual needs.

Parents should be pro-active in their child's education. Homeschooling does have its advantages: "Parents love their children and dedicate their lives to helping their children successfully grow to maturity. So, no one is more dedicated to a child than the parent. And, homeschooling is done largely on a one-on-one basis; there can't be a better teacher-to-student ratio than that."--Advantages of Homeschooling - FamilyEducation.com (http://school.familyeducation.com/home-schooling/alternative-education/39278.html)

Pro-active parents are involved with their child's school and interact regularly. You should feel free to contact your school and arrange for visitation and not just attending open house. You don't have to spend a full day. Express your concerns to the administration if you have any and don't be afraid to get involved.

Oklahoma is a pioneering leader in Vocational Education. The most productive teaching in Oklahoma is in the Vocational Tech districts. Teaching and instruction follows the 'teaching-by-objectives' strategy complete with mastery skills evaluative concepts.

All we are talking about here is moving sports from the education budget to the parent's budget. I thought that was what the Tea Party was all about, but I'll be damned if every self identified right-winger other than myself keeps supporting the public funding of sports within the school budget. Maybe I don't belong in the Tea Party after all, or more likely, maybe we have bunch of people who misidentified themselves.