Stupid idea and not happening anytime soon. It is so funny how some say suburbia is disappearing, and car sales are decreasing, and blah blah blah. It is not happening. Car sales are highest in 4 years and there is major growth happening in Edmond, Norman, Moore ect.

We need to stop the wasteful spending like funding 500,000 dollars to put shrimp on treadmills and wasting it on unnecessary wars like Syria. The interstates have already been paid for by tax dollars and they don't need to be tolled.

Umm what? Why is it stupid? The interstate system is not something that you can just pay once for and call it good. They are requiring recurring maintenance, which hasn't been happening in many areas, and has caused much of it to deteriorate. Do we forget Minneapolis so easily? How about the old Crosstown? The system is deficient in many areas.

Are auto sales up? Of course. Source: US Auto Sales (Monthly) (http://ycharts.com/indicators/auto_sales) and Calculated Risk: U.S. Light Vehicle Sales increased to 15.9 million annual rate in June, Highest since November 2007 (http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2013/07/us-light-vehicle-sales-increased-to-159.html)

However they probably keep going much higher. Historically they will begin to plateau around 17 million a month, which is about a million more than where we are now.

Suburban Sprawl has bean happening for years...no one say anything about suburbia disappearing - just being repurposed in some areas. Please be sure you are getting the statements correct. I'm not really sure what shrimp on treadmills has to do with this. Comments like that start to lead down the path of canned talking points from some wacko extremist fringe trying to find the worst examples of frivolous spending.

Again...the interstates aren't something you can just pay for once and call it good...unless you goal is for a gravel road at some point. States don't have the money to fix roads fast enough right now. Highway 9 is one of the deadliest roads in the state, but due to funding issues it will take 7 years for them to 4-lane the highway and improve safety standards. I-35 has taken how long now to to finally upgrade through Norman. The I-35/240 interchange, one of the worst in the system, is pushed off until at least 2017 (I believe) due to no money. All opinions are appreciated, just please make sure you are actually educated on the facts behind your claims.

Compared to a car - yes trucks do more damage, but compared to the amount of destruction done by mother nature both vehicles pale in comparison. Just look at crumbing sidewalks as an example. The heaviest thing on them is a person.
Sidewalks aren't built to the same standards as roads.


I was a contractor, I worked for half the pay until 7 pm, as they filed out early. But what I'm referring to was in DC at the time. It's hard to miss as the file right by you.

Government waste ? You ever heard about the $500 hammer....?
They have to have some way to pay for those NSA facilities.....


So because other countries with a more balanced transportation system with more options for consumers have higher pump prices, it does not affect them as much?
Most of those countries are smaller in area than Texas and have much a higher population density, makes it easier to afford mass transit when the people are "massed together" in the same place.


The weight of the vehicle should be a factor also. The heavier it is the more it tears up the road. Your road pass would be issued with that info and should be affixed to your windshield like the pike pass is.
A pickup has minimal more effect on a (properly built) road than a small car, the large trucks and improperly built roads are what leads to road damage. Too many contractors are building crap for top dollar and the state/counties/cities are allowing it to happen.

They have closed all the tollbooths in the Austin are and up here in Denver, it is all electronic and it happened much quicker than they expected because of advancements in technology and specifically license plate recognition. Some of the big toll plazas in Austin were in use less than a year and they are looking at changing the abandoned plazas on E-470 into gas stations. Makes it cheaper when when don't need the right-of-way to build them, saving on land, construction and employee costs.

When I was in Japan the highway we took from Tokyo to Yokohama was a toll road, the local architect said all highways were toll roads there. Back in 1996 they still had booths, you could buy a book of tickets and hand them to the person in the booth. They now have similar systems to the US toll technology.

Umm what? Why is it stupid? The interstate system is not something that you can just pay once for and call it good. They are requiring recurring maintenance, which hasn't been happening in many areas, and has caused much of it to deteriorate. Do we forget Minneapolis so easily? How about the old Crosstown? The system is deficient in many areas.

Are auto sales up? Of course. Source: US Auto Sales (Monthly) (http://ycharts.com/indicators/auto_sales) and Calculated Risk: U.S. Light Vehicle Sales increased to 15.9 million annual rate in June, Highest since November 2007 (http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2013/07/us-light-vehicle-sales-increased-to-159.html)

However they probably keep going much higher. Historically they will begin to plateau around 17 million a month, which is about a million more than where we are now.

Suburban Sprawl has bean happening for years...no one say anything about suburbia disappearing - just being repurposed in some areas. Please be sure you are getting the statements correct. I'm not really sure what shrimp on treadmills has to do with this. Comments like that start to lead down the path of canned talking points from some wacko extremist fringe trying to find the worst examples of frivolous spending.

Again...the interstates aren't something you can just pay for once and call it good...unless you goal is for a gravel road at some point. States don't have the money to fix roads fast enough right now. Highway 9 is one of the deadliest roads in the state, but due to funding issues it will take 7 years for them to 4-lane the highway and improve safety standards. I-35 has taken how long now to to finally upgrade through Norman. The I-35/240 interchange, one of the worst in the system, is pushed off until at least 2017 (I believe) due to no money. All opinions are appreciated, just please make sure you are actually educated on the facts behind your claims.Like every thing, you have to maintain. I understand that. Tolling the interstates is a stupid in my book. It is unlikely to happen, so I'm not worried about it. Just put in my 2 cents :)

The funding issues with highway 9 is something that is allowed to happen by whoever is in charge of that, which I'm assuming ODOT. Texas is reconstructing a multi billion dollar, 24 lane highway in something like 5 years. A four lane highway could easily become a 6 lane in about a year if ODOT really had the will to do so.

Like every thing, you have to maintain. I understand that. Tolling the interstates is a stupid in my book. It is unlikely to happen, so I'm not worried about it. Just put in my 2 cents :)

The funding issues with highway 9 is something that is allowed to happen by whoever is in charge of that, which I'm assuming ODOT. Texas is reconstructing a multi billion dollar, 24 lane highway in something like 5 years. A four lane highway could easily become a 6 lane in about a year if ODOT really had the will to do so.
Every funding model is different and Dallas gets more money from TxDOT than most other cities do and a road like 635 would have a higher priority than TX71 because of the amount of traffic. Just like work on 35 would have a higher priority than Hwy 9. It has taken 20 years to make Texas 71 (Ben White) in Austin into a limited access highway, about 8 miles worth. I think part of 635 will be tolled HOV lanes, that funding helps in that it is advanced monies due to bonds. Typical USDOT funding is a set amount per year and they can only build to that amount because you always risk next years funding being cancelled.

JTF, why do prices > than 4 bucks/gallon tank our economy but not those of other industrialized countries?

Because every income segment of our society depends on the automobile. It doesn't matter if you work at the mall or are a CEO, you have to drive. In nearly every other country public transit is available or neighborhoods are mixed use - and usually both. When fuel prices go up the people at the bottom get affected first and it doesn't take long for that price point to affect a lot of people. Europe doesn't have near the car ownership levels we have so most of their people don't care what gasoline costs - they don't use it, and if they do use it they can just choose not to drive if prices get to high. They can keep the wheels of commerce turning; we can't.

Every funding model is different and Dallas gets more money from TxDOT than most other cities do and a road like 635 would have a higher priority than TX71 because of the amount of traffic. Just like work on 35 would have a higher priority than Hwy 9. It has taken 20 years to make Texas 71 (Ben White) in Austin into a limited access highway, about 8 miles worth. I think part of 635 will be tolled HOV lanes, that funding helps in that it is advanced monies due to bonds. Typical USDOT funding is a set amount per year and they can only build to that amount because you always risk next years funding being cancelled.Texas is also much bigger and there are a TON of construction projects going on. ODOT could tackle more projects in OK if they wanted to. Maybe they need to change the way they fund things.

Sidewalks aren't built to the same standards as roads.


I know - but they don't carry any weight and yet after few winter/summer sequences they start to deteriorate. If a single car/truck never drove on the old crosstown it would have still needed replacement.

Like every thing, you have to maintain. I understand that. Tolling the interstates is a stupid in my book. It is unlikely to happen, so I'm not worried about it. Just put in my 2 cents :)

The funding issues with highway 9 is something that is allowed to happen by whoever is in charge of that, which I'm assuming ODOT. Texas is reconstructing a multi billion dollar, 24 lane highway in something like 5 years. A four lane highway could easily become a 6 lane in about a year if ODOT really had the will to do so.

So how would you fix the funding issue in order to get interstates up to standards?

Texas is also much bigger and there are a TON of construction projects going on. ODOT could tackle more projects in OK if they wanted to. Maybe they need to change the way they fund things.
TxDOT is a mess, a much bigger mess than ODOT, especially if you tried doing projects for them. A few years ago they had a $1 Billion accounting error that almost caused TxDOT to be terminated by the Sunset Commission. Big projects get a huge majority of the money and everyone else is left wanting, they don't operate any better than ODOT. It still comes down to too many projects for the amount of money allocated, something that affects all states. A large part of the problem is USDOT and them skimming money off the gas taxes paid in by the states.

The easiest first step should be an immediate tolling of all rural interstates. It isn't hard to do with existing PikePass/EasyPass/IPass systems in place over much of the country already. The urban portions would be a little tougher.

Tolling the rural interstates would be a piece of cake.

So how would you fix the funding issue in order to get interstates up to standards?The first step this country needs to take, is getting its finances in order, that does not include tolling every interstate. These "stupid extremist" examples, are true. They are spending millions on stupid **** that they shouldn't be. We spend billions just giving money to other countries, to try and nation build. Cut the crap, stop spending absurd amounts of money on pointless wars and fix corruption, then you can worry about what to do with our infrastructure.

The first step this country needs to take, is getting its finances in order, that does not include tolling every interstate. These "stupid extremist" examples, are true. They are spending millions on stupid **** that they shouldn't be. We spend billions just giving money to other countries, to try and nation build. Cut the crap, stop spending absurd amounts of money on pointless wars and fix corruption, then you can worry about what to do with our infrastructure.

Uhhh huh. So you just want us to ignore the crumbling infrastructure, which will further hamper economic recovery, to focus on things that likely will never get fixed?

Do you even know how much is spent on foreign aid? Around $50 billion or roughly 1.3% of the federal budget. Sure we can cut all that out, but it is still a drop in the bucket. Now if we take it all and put it towards transportation that would help...but still wouldn't do anything to get our financial house in order. To not take this too far off course, I agree we need to stop being the police of the world...but we also have special interests in certain areas to keep things stable. Regardless, I'll stop there because we are going to far down the path of getting this thread banished to Politics.

To bring out interstate system up to standards will cost between $1.2 trillion and $1.5 trillion. We aren't going to get that by cutting money for coal plants in Brazil or scaling back on African dung beetle research trips.

I too would like to see more American Money spent on America and Americans. We should improve our living and working standards before we worry about everyone else. Transportation is key to a Nation's life. Be it air, rail or road. The system is broke. Somebody needs to fix it.

I don't know exact specifics, and I apologize if it was already posted, but I'm pretty sure they are working to make advancements in pavement (I know, sounds exciting right) so roads are tougher and last longer.

We are going to have to move to some sort of mileage and gross weight based tax.

I drive an older sedan, it gets okay gas mileage but weighs nothing. I do zero damage to the roadbed and cause very little wear to the surface. yet because I drive a car with less gas mileage, I pay more in taxes than someone who is fortunate enough to have a nicer car.

JTF, why do prices > than 4 bucks/gallon tank our economy but not those of other industrialized countries?

I just returned from London where the price for regular unleaded is 1.389 GBP per litre, or roughly $8.25 per gallon. The cars you find in central London are typically very expensive, ranging from Mini Countryman subcompacts to legendary supercars (Lambos, Ferraris, Bentleys and Maybachs). People economize by riding lots of motorcycles, scooters and bicycles - even in the rain - and of course the Metro is packed during rush hours.

The UK economy is doing well, mostly attributed to phase 2 of a "Help to Buy" scheme that has resulted in a terrifying real estate bubble across the country, but especially frightening in London. It probably won't end well, but that's another thread topic, and unrelated to the price of gas or how we'll fund roads in the US. Their gasoline price 2x ours hasn't affected their economy - it has affected the behavior of their citizens.

I just returned from London where the price for regular unleaded is 1.389 GBP per litre, or roughly $8.25 per gallon. The cars you find in central London are typically very expensive, ranging from Mini Countryman subcompacts to legendary supercars (Lambos, Ferraris, Bentleys and Maybachs). People economize by riding lots of motorcycles, scooters and bicycles - even in the rain - and of course the Metro is packed during rush hours.

The UK economy is doing well, mostly attributed to phase 2 of a "Help to Buy" scheme that has resulted in a terrifying real estate bubble across the country, but especially frightening in London. It probably won't end well, but that's another thread topic, and unrelated to the price of gas or how we'll fund roads in the US. Their gasoline price 2x ours hasn't affected their economy - it has affected the behavior of their citizens.

So would it be safe to assume, if we go down the road of higher gasoline taxes or a mileage tax, it could inadvertently push demand for quality mass transit higher? That seems to be the take away from what you are saying.

So would it be safe to assume, if we go down the road of higher gasoline taxes or a mileage tax, it could inadvertently push demand for quality mass transit higher? That seems to be the take away from what you are saying.

Our big problems is that our cities and towns are not setup for mass transit and they sure aren't setup for walking. Rail works best in a service areas with a density of 20 to 30 units per acre. 90% of OKC is less than 5 units per acre.

London also has a "congestion tax" that works similar to the toll roads, 7:00AM to 6:00PM the tax is £9/10/12 a day to drive a vehicle in the congestion zone. Motorcycles, LEV/ULEV vehicles are exempt.

Texas is also much bigger and there are a TON of construction projects going on. ODOT could tackle more projects in OK if they wanted to. Maybe they need to change the way they fund things.

In other words... they need a lot more money. That's what we've been saying.

London also has a "congestion tax" that works similar to the toll roads, 7:00AM to 6:00PM the tax is £9/10/12 a day to drive a vehicle in the congestion zone. Motorcycles, LEV/ULEV vehicles are exempt.

Doesn't that just apply to the one square mile of Central London? If I remember correctly the toll system photographs every license plate entering the zone and sends a bill to owner.

Everything within the inner ring road including the main financial district and West End. They have an EZ Pass type system, the charge with that is £9, plate recognition is £10 if paid by the end of the day, £12 if paid by the end of the following day. The fine for not paying in that amount of time is £60-187.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/London_congestion_charge_zone.png/800px-London_congestion_charge_zone.png

Our big problems is that our cities and towns are not setup for mass transit and they sure aren't setup for walking. Rail works best in a service areas with a density of 20 to 30 units per acre. 90% of OKC is less than 5 units per acre.

I wish you would "come out" and get yourself an urban blog. You have a lot to offer in this area and I wish you would seriously consider it.

I find it funny that Texas gets talked about so much here. Do we really have that much of a complex?

There are TONS, and I mean TONS of really crappy highways in Texas. We by no means are getting it all wrong and they certainly aren't getting it all right. To dismiss a discussion based on a single highway here and there is completely unproductive.
I agree, they also take good roads and make them crap with chip seal. DFW and Houston get the bulk of TxDOT money, the roads there should be better. The rest of the state gets the leftovers.

ODOT could tackle more projects in OK if they wanted to. Maybe they need to change the way they fund things.

Like with more money? Or creating more toll roads?

I wish you would "come out" and get yourself an urban blog. You have a lot to offer in this area and I wish you would seriously consider it.

Thanks, but everyone has their place and mine right now is 'internet agitator'. On a serious note, I have started the initial work on writing a book but I have a couple of items left on my have-to-finish list before I can devote the amount of time it will require, so don't expect it any time soon.

Just raising the gas tax is not the answer. There are couples struggling with Daddy working 2 jobs and Momma wants to work but the child care is out of reach. There has to be a economic factor to this complex formula.

For "The 'Hindsight is 20/20' File":

It's a shame that Dwight D. Eisenhower--the same president who, earlier in his career, oversaw D-Day, and exercised personal responsibility, while remaining accountable, in order to play a pivotal role in quashing The Nazi Threat to Humanity, and later warned us about the unintended consequences of The Military Industrial Complex--was so enamored with The Autobahns of Der Fuerher (alt. spelling Future) that he foisted The Interstate Transportation and Defense Highway System upon us.

Dang.

And then there was Reagan wiping out The Soviet Union, former, with nothing but words . . .
Thereby planting the seeds to eliminate and deprive us of our worst foreign enemy . . . and, therefore, the need for ". . . and Defense" (highways)

I guess that "the sins of the fathers" ARE passed along to [The Nth Generations].

(now, cross-click to The New Corvette (and/or Possible Costco/Trader Joes/Etc. Opening) thread and feel better about the whole situation . . . =)

Edited to Add: If Uncle Joe Stalin was still around, he would probably be "demanding" that The Interstates be upgraded to peaceful and idyllic bicycle paths. Perhaps paid for with either a "toll" for the "rich" or a forced labor pogram/program. But he isn't so that will never happen. Because all "money"--nowadaze--is imaginary anywayz =)

So get this. Eisenhower's Secretary of Defense at the time was Charles Erwin Wilson. Before become Secretary of Defense Charles held a job. That job was CEO of General Motors. No joking.


During the hearings, when asked if he could make a decision as Secretary of Defense that would be adverse to the interests of General Motors, Wilson answered affirmatively. But he added that he could not conceive of such a situation "because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors, and vice versa".

Tinfoil hat aside, are you saying that the Interstate system should have never been created and is a huge failure?

Tinfoil hat aside, are you saying that the Interstate system should have never been created and is a huge failure?

Man would I love to answer that question in depth but for the sake of keeping this thread on topic let me just say I think in the end - yes, it will be a huge failure in a 'it was fun while it lasted' kind of way and the fact that we have an interstate system today is proof enough to me that time travel isn't possible.

I find it funny that Texas gets talked about so much here. Do we really have that much of a complex?

There are TONS, and I mean TONS of really crappy highways in Texas. We by no means are getting it all wrong and they certainly aren't getting it all right. To dismiss a discussion based on a single highway here and there is completely unproductive.


I know Texas highways probably better than most anybody on this forum. I don't mean to be contradictory, but I have traveled thousands and thousands (and thousands) of miles of Texas roads in just about every section of the state over the last 30 plus years and I seriously have no idea where these "TONS of really crappy highways" in Texas are located. Granted there are temporary crappy areas where all the road construction is going on, but the finished products are top notch. From Interstates to US Highways to State Highways to many of the FMs...I've driven them all. Bottom line is that Texas has one of the best roads and road systems in the entire US. I've driven FMs that blow away some of the US Highways in other states. It's not really even debatable if you've actually driven the road system to any degree. It's just a fact and has nothing to do with any complex or whatever.

Texas might have nice freeways but they paid a heavy price for it that they are just now beginning to come to grips with. Once again we are back to 'everyone says they hate government debt' but then live a lifestyle that requires massive government debt. Why is that?

I know Texas highways probably better than most anybody on this forum. I don't mean to be contradictory, but I have traveled thousands and thousands (and thousands) of miles of Texas roads in just about every section of the state over the last 30 plus years and I seriously have no idea where these "TONS of really crappy highways" in Texas are located. Granted there are temporary crappy areas where all the road construction is going on, but the finished products are top notch. From Interstates to US Highways to State Highways to many of the FMs...I've driven them all. Bottom line is that Texas has one of the best roads and road systems in the entire US. I've driven FMs that blow away some of the US Highways in other states. It's not really even debatable if you've actually driven the road system to any degree. It's just a fact and has nothing to do with any complex or whatever.

Many of those FMs are going to start being torn up as well, so they might be nice now...but the party is over.


Texas might have nice freeways but they paid a heavy price for it that they are just now beginning to come to grips with. Once again we are back to 'everyone says they hate government debt' but then live a lifestyle that requires massive government debt. Why is that?

Sometimes I think so called "conservatives" really have no idea the meaning of the word...they just go with it because the TV, newspaper, friends, family, the boogy man tells them to. Imagine if we had an extensive rail network right now. Rising gas prices would be something to laugh at. $300 to go to Chicago one-way? No problem...I'll just pay $150 and take the HSR train.

Sometimes I think so called "conservatives" really have no idea the meaning of the word...they just go with it because the TV, newspaper, friends, family, the boogy man tells them to. Imagine if we had an extensive rail network right now. Rising gas prices would be something to laugh at. $300 to go to Chicago one-way? No problem...I'll just pay $150 and take the HSR train.

I know and it is starting to piss me off. The level of intelligence in the country has hit an all time low in my opinion and now it seems even 'smart' people are stupid. Half on America says 2+2 = 5 and the other half says, "No you moron, it's 3." It's like we have lead in our entire national water supply.

It is just this simple:

1) If you don't like government debt - stop living a lifestyle that requires massive government debt (Tea Party people - I am staring right at you)
2) If you don't like military action - stop living a lifestyle that requires global military intervention to keep oil flowing
3) If you don't like global warming - stop living a lifestyle that requires pollution to get you to work
4) If you don't like health issues for being overweight - stop living a lifestyle that requires you to drive everywhere. Live where you can walk or ride a bike.
5) If you don't like corporate farming stop buying houses on land that used to be family farms.
6) If you think we pay enough taxes then live a lifestyle that allows government to function with money it already has
7) If you think government regulates too much then stop living a lifestyle that requires so much darn government regulation

Okay - rant off and now back to how to fix an interstate system we can't afford. I say scrap the whole thing. Don't spend another dime on it and lets use that money to build a sustainable national transportation system, one that doesn't cost more to maintain than it does to build.

I've started to realize that raising the gas tax by itself isn't politically viable. Every time I've discussed it, posters with mindless names like "Belly-boo" start their mindless rants. If a rail system enhancement and interstate overhaul were to take place, it would have to be done with bond issuance. The easiest way to tax trucks is at the weigh stations. People won't approve a gas tax increase (or any tax increase, in today's low trust, individualistic society) without seeing what's in it for them.

LOL - I run into the same issue LandRunOkie. I tell people we need more money to pay for roads and you would think I went over to their house and kicked their puppy. Why can't people understand simple stuff? Fine, if you don't want to pay what it cost, then lets only build what we have money for (but they don't like that option either).

LOL - I run into the same issue LandRunOkie. I tell people we need more money to pay for roads and you would think I went over to their house and kicked their puppy. Why can't people understand simple stuff? Fine, if you don't want to pay what it cost, then lets only build what we have money for (but they don't like that option either).

hard to tell people we need to raise taxes .. when the federal govt does such a terrible job with the money we give them now

I've started to realize that raising the gas tax by itself isn't politically viable. Every time I've discussed it, posters with mindless names like "Belly-boo" start their mindless rants. If a rail system enhancement and interstate overhaul were to take place, it would have to be done with bond issuance. The easiest way to tax trucks is at the weigh stations. People won't approve a gas tax increase (or any tax increase, in today's low trust, individualistic society) without seeing what's in it for them.



LandRunOkie....... Up Yours ! How about coming to the next get together and introduce yourself pothead ?

I'm okay with it so long as we charge according to weight. It's not Ford Fiestas and Honda Fits causing wear and tear to our system, it's 18-wheelers. Let them pay for the damage we're subsidizing right now. Of course, that's a very academic point. There's no way something like this would make it out of Congress with all of the lobbies who'd be against it.

There's a pretty direct correlation between vehicle weight, miles driven and fuel consumption, so government needs to find the easiest way to allocate costs to motorists, and a fuel tax is it.

The tax is already in place, it's easy to raise and lower, the revenue stream is constant, and motorists who drive less are rewarded by paying less. Greater fuel efficiency provides a benefit for motorist and state: More money in the motorist's pocket from buying less gasoline, and less wear on the road by either fewer miles driven or lighter cars on the road. Finally, it gives the motorist control over what he pays: If one chooses to own a larger, fuel-inefficient car and drive it a lot will pay more.

I'm okay with it so long as we charge according to weight. It's not Ford Fiestas and Honda Fits causing wear and tear to our system, it's 18-wheelers. Let them pay for the damage we're subsidizing right now. Of course, that's a very academic point. There's no way something like this would make it out of Congress with all of the lobbies who'd be against it.

Which takes us to restructuring campaign finance. Oh what a web we have woven. Heck...I'm starting to like Kerry's 2020 prediction. Let's just blow this whole experiment up and start over. I don't think anyone can seriously say government is working for the people right now. It is a stalled 2 party system where both parties are bred to hate each other and that is all that matters. This thread is a great example. Conservatives have no idea what a true conservative is expect that they are suppose to hate democrats, gays, people that don't believe in their creator all while shouting "Murica!". Liberals are bred now to hate anything a conservative says and have strayed away from being against a government that seeks to force personal choice.

We all know the Declaration was the purest sign that the people have the right to throw the government out on its butt when it stops doing what the people want. Maybe it is time to throw the system out again and start over. Who knows. However, trying to get myself back on topic here.

I could see where major toll gates could have scales to weigh vehicles coming in. Most weigh stations require trucks to slow to around 30 mph give or take now, so there isn't any reason why they couldn't do that now for all vehicles.

There's a pretty direct correlation between vehicle weight, miles driven and fuel consumption, so government needs to find the easiest way to allocate costs to motorists, and a fuel tax is it.

The tax is already in place, it's easy to raise and lower, the revenue stream is constant, and motorists who drive less are rewarded by paying less. Greater fuel efficiency provides a benefit for motorist and state: More money in the motorist's pocket from buying less gasoline, and less wear on the road by either fewer miles driven or lighter cars on the road. Finally, it gives the motorist control over what he pays: If one chooses to own a larger, fuel-inefficient car and drive it a lot will pay more.

We also need to make sure though that the system accommodates electric, CNG, and other potential fuel sources going forward. A fuel tax doesn't do anything for someone driving a pure electric vehicle.

I know and it is starting to piss me off. The level of intelligence in the country has hit an all time low in my opinion and now it seems even 'smart' people are stupid. Half on America says 2+2 = 5 and the other half says, "No you moron, it's 3." It's like we have lead in our entire national water supply.

I agree...but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that we probably disagree completely on who the stupid people actually are.


1) If you don't like government debt - stop living a lifestyle that requires massive government debt (Tea Party people - I am staring right at you)

What "lifestyle" are the Tea Party people engaging in that is skyrocketing government debt??? The facts are that the main component of government debt that is clearly out of control is the ever increasing spending on entitlement programs. It's not even debatable. I'm not talking about Social Security either. You should direct your stare towards some of those millions and millions of able-bodied citizens in this country who have chosen to accept government handouts instead of working for a living.


2) If you don't like military action - stop living a lifestyle that requires global military intervention to keep oil flowing

So what lifestyle choice has put us in a position to be poised for the latest potential military action on the table??? You seem to have forgotten that THIS administration wants to get us into another military situation, this time in Syria. It has nothing to do with "keeping oil flowing" or whatever. Actually, we've got plenty of oil and other natural resources right here at home...if the "stupid people" would just allow us to extract and utilize it.


3) If you don't like global warming - stop living a lifestyle that requires pollution to get you to work

Using 130 years of temperature data from a planet that is 4.5 billion years old and trying to prove anything from that is like looking outside for a split second at night and concluding there must be no Sun. It's complete lunacy as well as the opposite of real science.


4) If you don't like health issues for being overweight - stop living a lifestyle that requires you to drive everywhere. Live where you can walk or ride a bike.

So basically if you're overweight, it's must be because you drive cars everywhere. That's laughable, ridiculous, and insulting all at the same time. There are millions and millions of us who drive everywhere AND walk AND ride bikes AND exercise AND are not overweight.


6) If you think we pay enough taxes then live a lifestyle that allows government to function with money it already has

Government will never function with money it already has as long as there are politicians who wish to keep spending more and more.


7) If you think government regulates too much then stop living a lifestyle that requires so much darn government regulation

Government regulates things it should as well as it shouldn't, and a lot of that has nothing to do with one's lifestyle. There are many people who simply have a problem with government OVER regulation.

For the record, I have no problem with citizens paying for the roads that they use. Obviously, you don't want to pay for roads because it's quite clear you don't use them very often. On the flipside, I certainly don't want to keep subsidizing these utopian "rail" systems that I and most others won't and don't use either. If rail were really the answer, Amtrak wouldn't be in the red and the free marketplace would have companies building tracks everywhere.

Video Expert - let me give you a little example of what I am talking about.

This is our front page story today.

Building blossoms as more come to call Nocatee home | jacksonville.com (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-15/story/building-blossoms-more-come-call-nocatee-home)

If you go down and ask these people about government spending and taxes they will probably sound exactly like you - but yet they are doing the very thing causing the problem. No one wants to pay for freeways but they keep moving to areas that require more to be built. We have had to build 2 brand new freeways for these people and rebuild 10 miles of US1 including new fly-overs.

I know and it is starting to piss me off. The level of intelligence in the country has hit an all time low in my opinion and now it seems even 'smart' people are stupid. Half on America says 2+2 = 5 and the other half says, "No you moron, it's 3." It's like we have lead in our entire national water supply.

It is just this simple:

1) If you don't like government debt - stop living a lifestyle that requires massive government debt (Tea Party people - I am staring right at you)
2) If you don't like military action - stop living a lifestyle that requires global military intervention to keep oil flowing
3) If you don't like global warming - stop living a lifestyle that requires pollution to get you to work
4) If you don't like health issues for being overweight - stop living a lifestyle that requires you to drive everywhere. Live where you can walk or ride a bike.
5) If you don't like corporate farming stop buying houses on land that used to be family farms.
6) If you think we pay enough taxes then live a lifestyle that allows government to function with money it already has
7) If you think government regulates too much then stop living a lifestyle that requires so much darn government regulation

Okay - rant off and now back to how to fix an interstate system we can't afford. I say scrap the whole thing. Don't spend another dime on it and lets use that money to build a sustainable national transportation system, one that doesn't cost more to maintain than it does to build.


Which takes us to restructuring campaign finance. Oh what a web we have woven. Heck...I'm starting to like Kerry's 2020 prediction. Let's just blow this whole experiment up and start over. I don't think anyone can seriously say government is working for the people right now. It is a stalled 2 party system where both parties are bred to hate each other and that is all that matters. This thread is a great example. Conservatives have no idea what a true conservative is expect that they are suppose to hate democrats, gays, people that don't believe in their creator all while shouting "Murica!". Liberals are bred now to hate anything a conservative says and have strayed away from being against a government that seeks to force personal choice.

We all know the Declaration was the purest sign that the people have the right to throw the government out on its butt when it stops doing what the people want. Maybe it is time to throw the system out again and start over. Who knows. However, trying to get myself back on topic here.

I could see where major toll gates could have scales to weigh vehicles coming in. Most weigh stations require trucks to slow to around 30 mph give or take now, so there isn't any reason why they couldn't do that now for all vehicles.

And now we get to the part where we have to live in the real world. In the real world, we aren't going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We aren't going to abandon the interstate highway system and we aren't going to have another Constitutional Convention to restart everything. Too many vested interests all the way around. No one on Earth wants the sort of chaos that would follow the United States saying "screw it" and starting over. It would disrupt shipping all over the globe. Wars would break out everywhere. The global economy would collapse. And I wouldn't be able to get ice cream. All in all, a pretty bad state of affairs.

What we need to do is begin gradual change, and stick with it. Throwing out the whole system is like a person who needs to lose weight taking a chainsaw and cutting off their leg. "There, 30 lbs lighter!" Better to exercise more and go on a diet.

Here's what we need:

1) Stop building massive new interstates everywhere. We can't sustain the ones we have at our current level of taxation.
2) When interstates are rebuilt and repaired, we need a new technology that makes them last longer. My understanding is that newer types of concrete and newer construction techniques are already increasing the lifespan of roads.
3) We need a new funding source. This will be a hodge-podge of different methods. We will have more toll roads, a higher gas tax, a higher tax of vehicle purchases. We may need to have an operators tax on 18 wheelers to even let them on the road. Maybe a shipping tax on anything that is transported on any public highway. All of these will be opposed and none of them will totally fix the problem.
4) We need a viable alternate method of transportation. High speed rail is much cheaper to construct than the interstate. It's cheaper to operate as well. A nation-wide rail system will be a viable alternative to the interstate. Cities also need to begin planning for this future, which means streetcars and commuter rail around the city.

In the end, we're not going to have a perfectly designed SimCity style nation where every last detail is perfect. We're going to have bridges and interstates that need replaced. We're going to have funding shortages. At some point we're just going to have to fork over a lot of cash up front to rebuild things when it get bad. But it won't collapse as long as we don't ignore the problem.

While we are in realworldville, can any interstate revenue increase or spending cut pass Congress? Do you think a moratorium on new freeways has a chance of passing? I don't.

Video Expert - let me give you a little example of what I am talking about.

This is our front page story today.

Building blossoms as more come to call Nocatee home | jacksonville.com (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-15/story/building-blossoms-more-come-call-nocatee-home)

If you go down and ask these people about government spending and taxes they will probably sound exactly like you - but yet they are doing the very thing causing the problem. No one wants to pay for freeways but they keep moving to areas that require more to be built. We have had to build 2 brand new freeways for these people and rebuild 10 miles of US1 including new fly-overs.

I'm originally from Florida and very familiar with the area. My wife also lived in both Orange Park and that far away outpost known as Middleburg. If you read the article, you will find that many are choosing Nocotee because they don't want their kids going to Duval County Public Schools or don't want to have to pay to send their children to private schools in Jacksonville. Maybe if DCPS had their act together, these people wouldn't be choosing to move to master planned community with better schools like Nocotee. Perhaps you do not have children of your own and cannot relate. Sorry...but not everyone wants to live in San Marco.

Lastly, as far as the Nocotee Parkway is concerned, you didn't build it. That project was built and paid for by the developers there and is also used as a primary hurricane exit route for others. And many of the other rebuilds have more to do with the population expansion of Florida in general, the increased traffic brought on by tourism, and Hurricane routes needing to be updated to accommodate the increased traffic during evacuations. Maybe if you all chose to live in an area that didn't sit on and near a coastal area in the middle of a hurricane zone, taxpayers wouldn't have to build and expand a bunch of four lane highways that you all need to use to get away from them.

I agree...but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that we probably disagree completely on who the stupid people actually are.

What "lifestyle" are the Tea Party people engaging in that is skyrocketing government debt??? The facts are that the main component of government debt that is clearly out of control is the ever increasing spending on entitlement programs. It's not even debatable. I'm not talking about Social Security either. You should direct your stare towards some of those millions and millions of able-bodied citizens in this country who have chosen to accept government handouts instead of working for a living.

How many Tea Party people bought homes in Edmond? Or out in Piedmont? Or south of Norman? By doing that, they require the state to 1) build new 4 lane roads to service those areas, 2) build new schools, 3) provide water and sewage, and on and on. When I was a kid, I had an aunt and uncle move to Tuttle. It was mostly farmland. Now there are a ton of people there.

Here's a link to a discussion that's on this very forum, where one of our forum members (Zuplar) talks about how bad the roads are out on SW 104th and Council. That used to be the middle of nowhere. Now there are some pretty nice neighborhoods there. But because the land is cheap, the property taxes are low. The property taxes don't cover the cost of building and maintaining the roads, building the new schools, or providing the needed infrastructure. Moreover, when people continue to move further out, the previous generation's "further out" loses out and property values decline. In 25 years the nice neighborhood on SW 104th and Council will not be so nice anymore (thus generating lower property taxes), and the new nice neighborhood will be at SW 149th and County Line Rd.

Link: http://www.okctalk.com/transportation/34753-rural-roadwork.html


So what lifestyle choice has put us in a position to be poised for the latest potential military action on the table??? You seem to have forgotten that THIS administration wants to get us into another military situation, this time in Syria. It has nothing to do with "keeping oil flowing" or whatever. Actually, we've got plenty of oil and other natural resources right here at home...if the "stupid people" would just allow us to extract and utilize it.

The final cost of the Iraq war has been calculated at somewhere between 3 and 4 trillion dollars. I don't think anyone disagrees that a large part of our interest in the region is because of the need to keep world oil supply steady. This is not a value judgment -- I am not saying we are wrong to try and have stablility over there. It is needed because the world needs oil. And since prices are determined globally, it doesn't matter that we could supply all our own energy if push came to shove. Problems in the Gulf would affect us anyway. That's why we are involved over there.

But... if we lived a lifestyle that wasn't so dependent on oil, we wouldn't have nearly as strong of an interest as we do.


Using 130 years of temperature data from a planet that is 4.5 billion years old and trying to prove anything from that is like looking outside for a split second at night and concluding there must be no Sun. It's complete lunacy as well as the opposite of real science.

This isn't about a global warming debate, JTF was making a seperate point. He's saying you can't complain about global warming and drive a gas guzzler 40 miles to work every day.


So basically if you're overweight, it's must be because you drive cars everywhere. That's laughable, ridiculous, and insulting all at the same time. There are millions and millions of us who drive everywhere AND walk AND ride bikes AND exercise AND are not overweight.

Part of the problem with obesity comes from sitting for long periods of time. If you have a 45 minute commute in the morning and afternoon, that's an hour and a half you could be doing something else. It certainly doesn't help obesity. Generally cities that are more walkable have lower obesity than cities that aren't. If you can walk down to the park on a nice afternoon, you're a lot more likely to do it than if you have to get in your car and drive. It's also healthier for you. But when you build neighborhoods at SW 104th and Council, you aren't walking down to the park. You aren't walking to the nice little cafe down the street. You have to get in your car and drive everywhere, and that's more time sitting on your butt.


Government will never function with money it already has as long as there are politicians who wish to keep spending more and more.

There will always always always be those politicians. JTF's point is that many of us live a lifestyle that requires massive government spending without even realizing it.


Government regulates things it should as well as it shouldn't, and a lot of that has nothing to do with one's lifestyle. There are many people who simply have a problem with government OVER regulation.

It has a whole lot to do with our lifestyle. I'm sure you would want police protection and fire protection on your home. I'm sure you want a nice school for your kids. You want clean water and all that sort of thing. But if you build far enough away from the city, then you are causing the government to spend more money than the person who buys a home in an already established area. When millions of people do it, it means we as a nation expend a lot more resources than we would otherwise.


For the record, I have no problem with citizens paying for the roads that they use. Obviously, you don't want to pay for roads because it's quite clear you don't use them very often. On the flipside, I certainly don't want to keep subsidizing these utopian "rail" systems that I and most others won't and don't use either. If rail were really the answer, Amtrak wouldn't be in the red and the free marketplace would have companies building tracks everywhere.

We spent about $700 million to redo a 4 mile stretch of I-40. That is $700 million in the red. It generates zero income for the state. It's free to drive on. We don't pay a single dime to use it. It's 100% subsidized by the government. Now... does it allow for the transportation of goods, does it allow for more access to important services? Of course. That's why we built it. But you can't legitimately be upset about Amtrak being in the red, and then totally ignore the fact that all our roads have been built with tax dollars. It would be like if you bought a house on a 30 year loan, and then the government bought me a house with your tax dollars, and then I made fun of you because you were struggling with your mortgage.

Every non-toll road in the country loses money. They cost money to build and they charge zero dollars to use. Every single inch of highway is in the red. Once you realize that, when you look around and you see hundreds of thousands of miles of beautiful 4 lane road that run beside empty farmland, you will realize how much money our current system wastes.

So lets assume Congress would pass any thing we on OKCTalk can agree on, how about this solution.

1) Repeal the federal gasoline tax.
2) Put a toll on every US interstate on and off ramp with the toll based on weight and distance traveled - after mother nature's overhead has been factored in.
3) They money collected stays in the state it was collected in (if State X needs additional money for some project the toll rate in State X increases to pay for it)

So lets assume Congress would pass any thing we on OKCTalk can agree on, how about this solution.

1) Repeal the federal gasoline tax.
2) Put a toll on every US interstate on and off ramp with the toll based on weight and distance traveled - after mother nature's overhead has been factored in.

Sounds expensive with far less return on investment than simply increasing the gas tax to keep up with inflation.

Maybe if you all chose to live in an area that didn't sit on and near a coastal area in the middle of a hurricane zone, taxpayers wouldn't have to build and expand a bunch of four lane highways that you all need to use to get away from them.

That's EXACTLY the point.

People are making choices in where they move, where they build. Those choices are heavily influenced by what they get for "free". If I know that I can buy a nice house 5 miles further out, on inexpensive land, and the only cost I will pay is an extra 3 minutes commute each way while I fly down the road at 75 mph, of course I'm going to do it. But that choice is operating in the presence of an unseen government subsidy. That subsidy is the fact that the government is going to send cops out there when I call for them. The government is going to maintain that road. The government is going to let my kids use their school. I don't pay extra for that privilege. I don't have to give the cops $500 every time I call because of a prowler. I don't pay extra money to use the road in front of my house. But it certainly costs.

Would so many people move out to very distant suburbs if the government said "no, you build your own school, you maintain your own road, you hire your own cops". I don't think they would. They would move to existing neighborhoods. The $20K you saved by moving to cheaper land would quickly be spent trying to get the same level of convenience you get in the city.

JTF's point is that this is a HUGE subsidy and a VAST amount of debt, and a lot of Tea Party people don't even recognize it or choose to acknowledge it.

So lets assume Congress would pass any thing we on OKCTalk can agree on, how about this solution.

1) Repeal the federal gasoline tax.
2) Put a toll on every US interstate on and off ramp with the toll based on weight and distance traveled - after mother nature's overhead has been factored in.
3) They money collected stays in the state it was collected in (if State X needs additional money for some project the toll rate in State X increases to pay for it)

1) Leave gas tax in place.
2) Toll major US interstates between cities. Too hard right now to toll places like the Crosstown or I-235.
3) Significant shipping tax on 18 wheelers.
4) Higher purchase tax on all vehicles, based on weight.

The problem I have with that plan is that it charges people who don't use it and doesn't do anything for slowing the creation of new freeways or expanding current ones - which in turns means an ever increasing need for more revenue.

How about a phased toll approach
Phase 1 - Toll rural sections of freeways
Phase 2 - Close 75% of all interstate ramps
Phase 3 - Toll all remaining on-off ramps and remove rural tolls

The problem I have with that plan is that it charges people who don't use it and doesn't do anything for slowing the creation of new freeways or expanding current ones - which in turns means an ever increasing need for more revenue.

How about a phased toll approach
Phase 1 - Toll rural sections of freeways
Phase 2 - Close 75% of all interstate ramps
Phase 3 - Toll all remaining on-off ramps and remove rural tolls

if you buy just about anything you are making use of the interstate system

That's EXACTLY the point.

People are making choices in where they move, where they build. Those choices are heavily influenced by what they get for "free". If I know that I can buy a nice house 5 miles further out, on inexpensive land, and the only cost I will pay is an extra 3 minutes commute each way while I fly down the road at 75 mph, of course I'm going to do it. But that choice is operating in the presence of an unseen government subsidy. That subsidy is the fact that the government is going to send cops out there when I call for them. The government is going to maintain that road. The government is going to let my kids use their school. I don't pay extra for that privilege. I don't have to give the cops $500 every time I call because of a prowler. I don't pay extra money to use the road in front of my house. But it certainly costs.

Would so many people move out to very distant suburbs if the government said "no, you build your own school, you maintain your own road, you hire your own cops". I don't think they would. They would move to existing neighborhoods. The $20K you saved by moving to cheaper land would quickly be spent trying to get the same level of convenience you get in the city.

JTF's point is that this is a HUGE subsidy and a VAST amount of debt, and a lot of Tea Party people don't even recognize it or choose to acknowledge it.

Some of you are mixing road debt with municipal services paid for by citizens of communities who shop and pay sales taxes. People who choose to live in suburbs pay for their services already. And the "Government" doesn't send cops anywhere. Municipal fire, police, etc are funded in individual cities at a local level BY THE RESIDENTS via sales taxes. Water and sewage are paid for by the users of the community as well. If you own property, you pay property tax. Schools are primarily funded by property taxes. It's apples and oranges. If you want to look at cities who are in debt, look no further than that great inner city utopia of Detroit.

So lets assume Congress would pass any thing we on OKCTalk can agree on, how about this solution.

1) Repeal the federal gasoline tax.
2) Put a toll on every US interstate on and off ramp with the toll based on weight and distance traveled - after mother nature's overhead has been factored in.

Will never, ever happen.

The gasoline tax is about as equitable, simple and cost-effective of a revenue collection plan as you'll find, and it's already in place. As Venture pointed out, the wrinkle is the greater adoption of non-gasoline-fueled vehicles.

The financial and technical barriers of a nationwide toll system will make it all but impossible to create, install and maintain.

Just maybe, OKC (or any large city for that matter) needs to de-annex some of their far reaching outskirts, thus eliminating the need for services on the outer fringe...?

if you buy just about anything you are making use of the interstate system

And just think how even much more these guys would have to pay for their groceries at Whole Foods if we had didn't have a highway system to transport goods.