I've been hearing the Chickasaws have shown interest in opening a large casino / hotel / resort type of property either in NE OKC or on the site of the Producers Co-op (cotton oil mills, recently put on the market for $120 million).

Remember, the Chickasaws bought Remington Park out of bankruptcy in 2009, added gaming machines and lots of other improvements and have completely turned that place around. Also, they strongly opposed a proposal by the Shawnees to build a large casino and resort a couple miles north of Remington Park on I-35.

They also recently purchased the naming rights for the Bricktown Ballpark, pumped a bunch of money into renovating Chickasaw Nations Plaza on the BT canal and have put out a great video promoting Oklahoma City.

And it seems they might want to incorporate a decent-size stadium (for soccer or maybe even expandable for future needs) into their plans.


To redevelop that Producers Co-op site, it's going to take very deep pockets and someone willing to dream/develop big.


Thoughts?

I've been hearing the Chickasaws have shown interest in opening a large casino / hotel / resort type of property either in NE OKC or on the site of the Producers Co-op (cotton oil mills, recently put on the market for $120 million).

Remember, the Chickasaws bought Remington Park out of bankruptcy in 2009, added gaming machines and lots of other improvements and have completely turned that place around. Also, they strongly opposed a proposal by the Shawnees to build a large casino and resort a couple miles north of Remington Park on I-35.

They also recently purchased the naming rights for the Bricktown Ballpark, pumped a bunch of money into renovating Chickasaw Nations Plaza on the BT canal and have put out a great video promoting Oklahoma City.

And it seems they might want to incorporate a decent-size stadium (for soccer or maybe even expandable for future needs) into their plans.


To redevelop that Producers Co-op site, it's going to take very deep pockets and someone willing to dream/develop big.


Thoughts?

I'm not sure how I feel about the casino, but a stadium is exactly what I thought should go here. Honestly, anything would be a huge improvement. Major eyesore to downtown. When did this site get put on the market?

The property has been on the market for a few years now but at $120 million no one has really sniffed it.

Also, I would assume there are massive soil remediation and clean-up issues.


No way the Chickasaws would want to move forward unless they could incorporate gaming. I'm sure it's the only way to make that site even remotely feasible from an investment standpoint.

How can they put gaming.... If its unincorporated land?

A casino to me is a great idea I guess, I had just never really thought about it. It would bring in a lot more visitors for downtown too, which is never a bad thing.

This is the one spot I wouldn't be completely opposed to a casino going in as long as they adhear to the rules and regulations of the Bricktown Design Committee and there is a hotel, retail and restaurants attached to it. My biggest problem with the indian casinos is since they are on "sacred ground" (they call it something else, I can't remember what it is) they do not have to abide by anyone else's rules. They have the money to buy the land (although I don't think it will cost $121 million, probably more like $75 million or so) and do something with it and putting an ourdoor venue (soccer stadium) down there would be great too.

How can they put gaming.... If its unincorporated land?

I was wondering the same.

I've been hearing the Chickasaws have shown interest in opening a large casino / hotel / resort type of property either in NE OKC or on the site of the Producers Co-op (cotton oil mills, recently put on the market for $120 million).

Remember, the Chickasaws bought Remington Park out of bankruptcy in 2009, added gaming machines and lots of other improvements and have completely turned that place around. Also, they strongly opposed a proposal by the Shawnees to build a large casino and resort a couple miles north of Remington Park on I-35.

They also recently purchased the naming rights for the Bricktown Ballpark, pumped a bunch of money into renovating Chickasaw Nations Plaza on the BT canal and have put out a great video promoting Oklahoma City.

And it seems they might want to incorporate a decent-size stadium (for soccer or maybe even expandable for future needs) into their plans.


To redevelop that Producers Co-op site, it's going to take very deep pockets and someone willing to dream/develop big.


Thoughts?

I've been impressed by all of the projects I've seen from the Chickasaws. I'd love to see them take this site on and turn it into a resort. And if it takes gaming to make that feasible, so be it.

How can they put gaming.... If its unincorporated land?

I believe the land would have to be put into trust. And that would be no small feat...

If they are going to do a casino, they need to go big. Make it the premier casino/resort in the state. Make it something that people from surrounding states will come to OKC for rather than the bordertown casinos. Light it up at night, make it very attractive from I-40 for people passing through, but not tacky.

A casino could happen if the city and county (and probably the state) cooperate.

Here is a map of the area... This is a hugely critical piece of land that would tie together major development and recreation initiatives:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/coop9913.jpg

The city should work with them and get the salvage yard included and make it a convention center! Kill three birds with one stone..... Stadium, convention center, and convention center hotel!

As an avid blackjack player, a casino would be fine by me! Especially if it's a big, grand, resort type place. Grander than Winstar.

Oh and a venue much like the Global Event Center at the Winstar Casino where they will bring in big name acts who can sell out the 3,500 seat arena, but not The Peake. I am sick of OKC losing acts to The Joint in Tulsa at the Hard Rock Casino, Global Event Center in Thackerville, or any of the other casinos located less than an hour outside of the metro. I know a lot of that has to do with them willing to pay more for them to come and promotions, but the venue makes a difference as well.

This has been posted before but this is the video the Chickasaws put together to promote OKC. It's extremely well-done:

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Yep, it'd have the landrun monument running right into it.

Would be very easy to extend the canal to this property and really tie it in to Bricktown and actually create a destination for the water taxis.

This was an incredibly lame rendering used to market this property, but it at least shows the general idea:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/coop1.jpg

Since there would be no access to the area from I-40 from the south, I would assume that would be a good place for a larger parking garage and the soccer stadium with the casino in the middle, hotel to the east near the river walk and retail and restaurants facing the boulevard.

What is the likelihood of any portion of this actually happening?

Gambling has done wonders for Detroit, New Orleans, Atlantic City, and Chicago, not to mention all the great walkability casinos are know for creating. This is exactly what downtown OKC needs.[/sarc]

Casinos - what you do when every other idea fails.

So I guess I'll take the minority opinion and say, stadium yes, casino, absolutely not.

It would need to be put in some sort of trust status, which would be an uphill climb considering Chickasaws have no claim in this area and Mick Cornett and most of the council have opposed casinos here. But if for some reason it would, I can image a pandora's box being open with every tribe and their grandma wanting a claim in or around OKC.

More importantly, indian casinos are a giant black hole. The guidelines in place allow casinos to set up businesses within them that charge no sales tax, allowing them to compete at an unfair disadvantage with other BT establishments. Casinos themselves pay no local taxes at all actually. And the profits would be reinvested far away from OKC.

If a special process can be set up like Remington Park where a casino would operate outside the normal tribal guidelines, then I'd reconsider. For the record, I don't have a problem with competition, I do have a problem with an entirely sovereign enterprise being a leach on on the city's most successful urban districts.

Oh wow. Brain fart. I just realized the location. Yeah, I'm gonna have to say no to a casino.

I don't see a Casino being a benefit to the city. And deeding downtown prime real estate into Indian trust land? No thanks.

If something like this happens, we need to roll back all of our state gambling laws. There's no good reason the tribes should be the only folks who get to profit from gambling in this state.

If they are going to do a casino, they need to go big. Make it the premier casino/resort in the state. Make it something that people from surrounding states will come to OKC for rather than the bordertown casinos. Light it up at night, make it very attractive from I-40 for people passing through, but not tacky.Agreed. A world class casino and maybe a roller coaster or something going through it would be awesome. Hopefully if they do something, it will be at least 15-20 stories high.

On edit: If the casino doesn't pay taxes then I'd say no to a casino.

Pretty much am inline with everyone else on this. Make this an equally advantageous arrangement for both parties, then I think this should be a great idea. But (1) I think it has to be the whole package and (2) The city has to play a part in the planning process and everything needs to be planned out before a sale of the property is allowed.

Honestly, if it's going to happen, I don't see the city letting the Chickasaws run rough-shod over a piece of land so close to downtown.

Also...is the producers co-op owned by OKC or a private individual?

This is the one spot I wouldn't be completely opposed to a casino going in as long as they adhear to the rules and regulations of the Bricktown Design Committee and there is a hotel, retail and restaurants attached to it. ...

Wait, I'm tired, confused, or both. I thought the BDC didn't have any sway over even Lower Bricktown. If that's right, how would they have any say about a property that is even further south of Lower BT?

FWIW, it would surprise me if there wasn't a major concerted effort by many of the current members of the Complainature at 23rd and Lincoln, along with the gripestituents, to oppose any attempt at turning the purchase of the co-op land into trust land via the BIA.

A casino is something that sounds attractive upon first thought, and when I first saw this thread I thought this might be a good idea. However, on second thought I oppose it unless A) it can be taxed and B) it is extravagant, so much so as to be a destination. A run of the mill casino downtown will not project a good image and as adaniel says, will be a black hole in the district.

The Co-op needs to go, but I don't think this is the way. I wouldn't mind having a casino on the level of Winstar somewhere in the metro however.

No to Indian casino. Mayor Mick has continually stated that no casino will be anywhere near downtown and that's fine by me. Problem with their asking price is I honestly don't think anyone will ever pay that. If someone does pay for the site, then I hope they sell parcels off to future investors that want to build on prime time land, but there will be a ton of work between now and then just to get there and there's no telling how long that time frame will be. I'm betting on 10+ years.


Also...is the producers co-op owned by OKC or a private individual?

Owned by Producers Cooperative Oil Mill.

I don't get the sense that the Chickasaws are thinking about plopping down a Firelake/Riverwind type concept in this spot.

I would not be the least bit surprised if heavy resistance to this idea is financed by other tribes and owners of casinos close to the metro. It would be a big blow to every casino on the outskirts if one popped up in the heart of downtown.

But seriously...if this is done right, there's no reason this idea couldn't be special. Casinos do exist around the world that are high-class and bring notoriety to their cities. There's even a city that is known almost exclusively for its casinos.

The question is are the Chickasaws ready to drop the $300M to $600M it will take to make everything come together to make it special, and is there going to be the ability for the Chickasaws and the City to work together to ensure that the vision for this development would be in line with both the present and future direction of downtown.

If they are going to do a casino, they need to go big. Make it the premier casino/resort in the state. Make it something that people from surrounding states will come to OKC for rather than the bordertown casinos. Light it up at night, make it very attractive from I-40 for people passing through, but not tacky.

Personally, I don't care for casinos or horse racing tracks. They are here in Oklahoma, so why not Oklahoma City? Keep the money in our state instead of having these people venture out to places like Las Vegas, Gulfport, MI., and Atlantic City. We have a big casino called Winstar just north of the Oklahoma-Texas border and I drove through there recently and I couldn't believe the out-of-town license plates in the parking lot.

I saw two casinos in Kansas City and I couldn't believe the business they were doing.

Oklahoma City is becoming a mecca for new development; we need to capitalize on the out-of-state dollars and prepare in advance for growth. That will include more motels, hotels, police, fire, roads, streets, transportation and the like.

Those of us who have an interests in OKC, we need to know that the development is coming and get prepared.

I wouldn't be opposed to a casino there, but I don't think it should be an indian casino. I would much rather see MGM Mirage or Caesars be allowed to come in a build notable facility instead of just another Riverwind.

Also I would be a little concerned about losing any of the rail lines there. The ability to utilize the tracks (fix them up if needed) to tie in commuter/regional rail into the Sante Fe Station should be part of the deal. Granted it isn't a necessity, but that rail line from the west along I-40 could have an easy turn off into that loop around the Co-Op that a new bridge could be put in to tie it into the line coming into the station. That would make it relatively easier for any train from El Reno/Yukon/W OKC.

Gambling has done wonders for Detroit, New Orleans, Atlantic City, and Chicago, not to mention all the great walkability casinos are know for creating. This is exactly what downtown OKC needs.[/sarc]

Casinos - what you do when every other idea fails.

The Detroit casinos have done some good at revitalizing once dead neighborhoods in downtown, but their effects definitely aren't widespread. Can't comment on NOLA. AC has always been 2nd rate to Vegas. Chicago I can't think of any in the city...only one that comes to mind is out in Aurora which is pretty nice and Aurora is actually doing quite well.

If anything it would be part of the entertainment district to help it continue to grow. I know you scoff at the foot traffic, but putting one near Bricktown would probably create a good deal of additional revenue for businesses there.

Now to go with a new casino, I would push for an indoor water park/resort as well. While I would like Castaway Bay (Home (http://www.castawaybay.com/))...I know Cedar Fair likely isn't going to come close to Oklahoma. So we are looking at probably a Great Wolf. Though it would be nice to get a more upscale one like some of these: The 15 Craziest Indoor Water Parks in the World | Complex (http://www.complex.com/city-guide/2013/05/the-15-craziest-indoor-water-parks-in-the-world/3-world-waterpark)

The Chickasaws actually have more money than the state of Oklahoma. They bought the Lone star race track between Dallas and Ft. Worth to hedge their bets in case Texas eventually passes gaming there. That sucking sound that we hear is millions of dollars being sucked from Texas to Oklahoma every week at Windstar Hotel/Casino on the border. They could build a resort hotel and find a way to bring gaming later if the really wanted to.

Selfishly, I want that land used for an MLS-class soccer facility. I know that viewpoint is probably not shared by a majority though.

venture79 brings up a good point in regards to the existing rail lines there as well

It would require the governed aproval Slim to no chance. Remember even though Okc chamber supported the ne Okc casino. The council opposed it

That sucking sound is money being sucked out of local economy. If you spend $1 in an Indian casino most of that dollar is lost to the local economy forever. This is the same song and dance a certain blue retailer promises but if it was true every town in Oklahoma would have so many tax dollars the state income tax would have vanished years ago because we couldn't spend it all. Anyone ever wonder why that never seems to actually work out?

Selfishly, I want that land used for an MLS-class soccer facility. I know that viewpoint is probably not shared by a majority though.

Actually I think an MLS stadium or some sort of large sports facility is a very good use for the site. If the Chickasaws want to build a stadium on the land owned in fee of course then I say go for it.

I don't want to second-guess Pete but this whole casino scenario is very unlikely. Downtown interests would almost certainly oppose this due to the unfair taxation issue. Remington Park, and by extension the entire equestrian industry, would oppose it because it cuts into their cash cow at the Racino. The city has already gone on record in opposing any casino that requires tribal trust land. And the majority of tribes would fight tooth and nail to keep the Chickasaws from getting trust status inside the unassigned lands, which has never happened to my knowledge. All this is important because any sort of legal process would need support from these parties. Too many people with something to lose in order for this to work under current laws.

And the massive 800 lb gorilla screeching in the room. Anyone think Texas is going to remain gambling free forever?

Frankly, I think the promise of gambling our way to prosperity and jobs as one of the biggest farces to be perpetrated in economic circles. It is not something this city needs to pursue at all.

OKC is not in the Chickasaw Nation so how would a casino be built on land it doesn't control? That is why Riverwind is where it is, closest to OKC and high visibility along I-35. I would think the Chickasaw's would eventually make that more of a showcase casino, like what the Creeks and Cherokees have done in the Tulsa area (both of which are on Indian land, which surrounds Tulsa on all sides).

Chickasaw Nation
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_p0m0diovXgE/SfsMaOP4nII/AAAAAAAAA9c/_8aRbLtPaDw/s400/chickasaw+nation+map.jpg

Oklahoma Indian Nations
http://www.okgenweb.org/maps/images/itmap.gif

As a general rule, Indian tribes cannot put land into trust that isn't connected to their reservations and or recognized tribal land. The Chickasaw Nation ends at the South Canadian River just north of the RiverWind Casino. It isn't impossible, but it is very difficult. And if their intent is to operate a casino on the property, it is doubtful they could ever get it put into trust. The federal government almost always denies those requests. In fact, I cannot find evidence that the feds have ever approved such. The operation at Remington Park is not trust land. Remington Park is owned by Global Gaming RP, LLC which is a subsidiary of Global Gaming Solutions, which is owned by the Chickasaw Nation. It officially isn't Indian land or property in the normal sense. The only reason there is a casino there was that in 2004 I believe, there was an election to change the law to allow gaming at 3 race tracks (Remington is only one left I think) and that it was limited to that location only. it was billed as a way to make money for schools. So it would most likely require a state question to get this done and approval by the feds that most likely wouldn't happen. Especially if there was any opposition. And there would be tons. If it were put into trust, then the city, county and state would not be able to tax any of the operation and I can assure you that many in each governmental entity would fight tooth and nail to prevent that from happening because of the tax situation. The county gets a lot of property tax on the land now. And more if it is developed. The County would fight losing that money. And the schools would fight it because it would come out of their appropriations. Local businesses, restaurants, clubs etc would oppose it because of the perceived unfair advantage it would give the tribe. I'm gonna say...this proposed deal will never happen. Too much opposition.

I'm not sure if it's a tax, but Oklahoma tribes do pay gaming fees to the state. The latest data I could find is from 2011; $122 million was paid to the state, the Chickasaw and Choctaw Nations being the biggest contributors.
I agree with bchris02 by going big and designing the casino to be a premier destination, but not tacky. I think it could be pretty feasible for Chickasaw Nation to buy the property and redeveloping it. The Choctaw Nation has spent $360 million on their resort in Durant ($60 million for the first phase, $300 million on an expansion), and are about to spend $275 million more on another expansion beginning this Fall. That's $635 million total, over half a BILLION dollars (mind-boggling for me!) invested into their resort in my small hometown.

It would require the governed aproval Slim to no chance. Remember even though Okc chamber supported the ne Okc casino. The council opposed it

Actually the Chamber opposed the casino in NE OKC. They wanted to help a then struggling Remington Park who opposed the casino as well.

Totally against it.

There's no scenario I can think of, while OK remains in its current gaming posture, that a significant gaming facility would be located in OKC. It doesn't make sense given the ease of travel to existing facilities like Riverwind & Newcastle to the south and Grand to the east. And let's face it, Winstar at Thackerville just isn't that far away, nor is hard Rock at the edge of Tulsa.

I'm not sure this could work. Oklahoma City, The State of Oklahoma, and the Federal Government would all have to be on the same page. All the other tribes would be against the Chickasaws because of their own best interests. Hurts my brain to think about all this could work.

I just don't see how gaming would be politically feasible on this site.

We know two groups are looking at pro soccer, one of them potentially on the river. May be a partnership with one of the tribes to instead do a world class hotel and resort. True 5 star hotel, spas, pools, restaurants, etc.

But I just don't see gaming working out.

I just don't see how gaming would be politically feasible on this site.

We know two groups are looking at pro soccer, one of them potentially on the river. May be a partnership with one of the tribes to instead do a world class hotel and resort. True 5 star hotel, spas, pools, restaurants, etc.

But I just don't see gaming working out.

I think the problem with an upscale site like that is that there is very little confidence the market would support it - hence a casino would pay the bill for it. We just need to legalize casino gambling completely for the large players if we have any hope of getting a high quality facility here. Not saying this site is where it should go, but overall.

I think the problem with an upscale site like that is that there is very little confidence the market would support it - hence a casino would pay the bill for it. We just need to legalize casino gambling completely for the large players if we have any hope of getting a high quality facility here. Not saying this site is where it should go, but overall.


That would be the perfect site for an upscale casino/Hotel. In fact, I can't think of a better site in OKC. If done right it would be a crown jewel for the downtown area. Right now people are taking their gambling money out of OKC for the most part.

No offense, but unless you're Vegas, which has world class golf, food, shows, and other entertainment venues to attract people, casinos just attract a trashy crowd, in my experience.

No offense, but unless you're Vegas, which has world class golf, food, shows, and other entertainment venues to attract people, casinos just attract a trashy crowd, in my experience.

And of course, much of Vegas is incredibly trashy as well.


Can anyone offer an example of a casino/resort outside of Vegas (but in the U.S.) that would meet the standards we all want?

There are some in the Reno/Tahoe area but that is a very unique setting.

Good point. So I guess you get that demographic no matter what?

Good point. So I guess you get that demographic no matter what?

I'm not saying that, just wondering out loud if there are specific examples to the contrary.

I can't think of any.

Can anybody give an example outside of Vegas, Atlantic City, etc where a casino has become the 'crown jewel' of a city?

The more I think about it, the more I oppose it. If its done, it has to be done outside the box. It can't be just a casino.

And of course, much of Vegas is incredibly trashy as well.


Can anyone offer an example of a casino/resort outside of Vegas (but in the U.S.) that would meet the standards we all want?

There are some in the Reno/Tahoe area but that is a very unique setting.

foxwoods .. the beau rivage in mississippi ... to name 2

Actually the Chamber opposed the casino in NE OKC. They wanted to help a then struggling Remington Park who opposed the casino as well.

The Chamber itself was opposed (or neutral) but IIRC, the head of the Chamber spoke in favor of it (unofficially of course) and their press conference. SOmething about 400 or so new jobs to the area etc. As some have already noted, the same tribe that wanted to build the resort up by Frontier City & Remington Park was the same tribe that wanted to build one in Bricktown. The City wasn't just cool to the idea, they were downright frigid. The particular tribe is headquartered up near Tulsa and along with just about any other tribe, has no historical connection to the property. Add to the fact that now Gov. Fallin (then Representative) was strongly opposed to it as well. And the phrase "snowball's chance in Hell" comes to mind...

I don't think a casino on that site will ever happen, nor is it the best use. It is probably the easiest way to get it developed sooner rather than later though. Since we are talking about combining casino, hotel, resort, and professional sports Dover Downs came to mind. It is the only casino I know of with that combination. The horse track is on the inner perimeter of the Bubbacar track. But as others have mentioned, it isn't exactly a high quality, high brow venue - it is a bit cheesy to be honest.

Isn't there one in Connecticut that's supposed be pretty nice? The Sun or something?

Isn't there one in Connecticut that's supposed be pretty nice? The Sun or something?

Mohegan Sun.

Can anybody give an example outside of Vegas, Atlantic City, etc where a casino has become the 'crown jewel' of a city?

The more I think about it, the more I oppose it. If its done, it has to be done outside the box. It can't be just a casino.

Pete said *a* crown jewel not *the* crown jewel. Massive difference.

The rest of the post is directed to everyone at large:

I wish everyone would quit thinking of this as an Indian Casino. It is indeed possible for the Chickasaws, though they are indeed Native American, to develop a world-class facility. The fact that they're talking about a stadium and a resort should be pretty indicative that they don't intend to plop down something like FireLake.

I don't think it would be too ludicrous to say that almost no one here would be unilaterally opposed to Caesar's Palace being dropped down on this site. If the project were done right...again, $300M - $600M *initial* investment, no reason this wouldn't be an absolute grand slam.

Teo9969: I don't think it is a matter of a tribal casino (but would they construct something without a gaming component?), a Racino or an outside interest (like MGM etc), but it comes down to what the law allows among the different entities...I don't think that State law even allows for an outside interest??? I know there is a Hard Rock casino in Tulsa, but that is in name only. The Casino is a tribal one with the Hard Rock branding that they are licensing. I wouldn't be so sure that there wouldn't be just as much opposition to ANY gaming facility there. After all the City was opposed to one that was proposed there before...but that has been a few years ago now, Council members have changed and there may be a Mayoral change soon so who knows. As I mentioned to someone else in a PM, opinions can change and I don't see any problem with revisiting issues after a few years.