I grew up in Tulsa and I personally think it has to do having less developed Suburbs. A retailer could put something in South Tulsa and never consider what about east tulsa, west tulsa, north tulsa. At least in my perspective things in Tulsa are Tulsa centered, while here its all suburb centered. I've lived in OKC for 8 years now and i've met a handful of people through my different employers who have actually lived in OKC schools area.

Think about OKC, the entire city is segregated into different communities centered around the interstate. I35 in norman, I35 for moore, 240 for south okc, bricktown, midwest city I40e, yukon I40w, penn square, kilpatric, broadway extension, and now i35n in edmond.

Where is the proper place to put something new? All of these areas have centers of wealth that arent typically willing to drive 30 minutes to another section of town. Sorry not buying it? OKC is logistically layed out much better than Tulsa? OKC has 3 major interstates I40, I35, I44 running through the city. In addition, OKC is layed out pretty much in a grid, NW NE, SW, SE, etc.. so the ease of getting to places is much more plausible than in Tulsa?? Not going to turn this into a Tulsa-vs-OKC rivalry though so I will arrest my case, lol.

Sorry not buying it? OKC is logistically layed out much better than Tulsa? OKC has 3 major interstates I40, I35, I44 running through the city. In addition, OKC is layed out pretty much in a grid, NW NE, SW, SE, etc.. so the ease of getting to places is much more plausible than in Tulsa?? Not going to turn this into a Tulsa-vs-OKC rivalry though so I will arrest my case, lol.

The development and growth in OKC is very spread out, regardless of it being at the perfect intersection on the Interstate Highway System. It's difficult to select a single location that will be convenient for NW OKC, Edmond, the inner Northside, along with Moore/SW OKC/Norman. In OKC, Costco will need at least two locations. In Tulsa, it can get by with one simply because of the layout of the city.

Sorry not buying it? OKC is logistically layed out much better than Tulsa? OKC has 3 major interstates I40, I35, I44 running through the city. In addition, OKC is layed out pretty much in a grid, NW NE, SW, SE, etc.. so the ease of getting to places is much more plausible than in Tulsa?? Not going to turn this into a Tulsa-vs-OKC rivalry though so I will arrest my case, lol.

I think you missed the core of my message, so i will restate it.

If a retailer is thinking about entering the Tulsa market its a easy decision put one into South Tulsa, because South Tulsa and its suburbs are so much nicer than the rest of the city.

With OKC, you have a spread out population with centers of wealth in every direction N,E,S,W. So they have to chose, do we want it in Norman, Moore, Midwest/Choctaw(not so much there), Yukon/ Mustang, NW OKC, Old Edmond or new Edmond?

You are right. It may be because Tulsa is so much more cohesive its easier for retailers to select a site. OKC really seems like multiple smaller communities rolled into one based off of how spread out it is. I can understand upscale retailers like Saks opting for Tulsa over OKC because of the distribution of wealth is more concentrated, but mid-tier retailers like Costco shouldn't have any issues with a market like OKC. It has to be simply easier to select a site in Tulsa. In OKC, Costco will likely need at least a northside and southside location.
Doesn't Saks get a subsidy from the owner of Utica Square? If they didn't get that more than likely they wouldn't be in Tulsa. It is also a smaller store than most of the other Saks stores that I have been in other cities.

Austin has two locations, the South Austin store opened up around 2007, not sure when the north store opened up but it was there when I moved to Austin in 2003. Austin is a little easier than OKC because the majority of the population (and money) is west of I-35 and is constrained by The Hill Country to the west. Eventually once the northern burbs (Round Rock, Pflugerville, Georgetown, Hutto) grow I would imagine a third location somewhere around Ikea and the outlet mall is located. The northwestern burbs (Cedar Park, Leander, Liberty Hill) will probably have to be served by the current North Austin store. Judging by how old some of the stores are here in the Denver area they don't tend to move locations to newer stores like Sam's does. May have to do with the difference in property acquisition mentality, Sam's does most locations on a build to suit lease and I think Costco does outright property ownership.

I could see three possible Costco locations, the Memorial location being discussed, a Moore/Norman location and a Mustang/Yukon location. I think the odds of one east is remote and the west location would be the least likely or last one to be done. There is about 25 miles between the Austin locations, we have three locations within that distance of our house out here in far southeast Denver and about six Sam's locations.

I doubt Tulsa will secure a location first, I'll even extend that I doubt Tulsa will have one for about 2-3 years after we get our first.

I spoke with a Costco's real estate representative who told me Tulsa will definitely come first. He said they have looked around OKC, but would not commit to saying they are coming here. He said it would be at least 12-18 months.Proof?

I sent in this email and will post the response.

"Is there any chance that you guys will expand into the Oklahoma City market? Further more, if Costco comes to Oklahoma, would they set up shop in Tulsa first or Oklahoma City first? I would sign up instantly if one were to open up here in OKC and it would very much be appreciated by many here! "

I don't think they will be in Tulsa for awhile.

I spoke with a Costco's real estate representative who told me Tulsa will definitely come first. He said they have looked around OKC, but would not commit to saying they are coming here. He said it would be at least 12-18 months.

I am not sure that Costco is very happy to have all this info out there until they are ready to make an announcement. They are not going to tell you anything on the front end. That is why they would not commit to coming here at all. They are very secretive about these expansions into new markets.

The development and growth in OKC is very spread out, regardless of it being at the perfect intersection on the Interstate Highway System. It's difficult to select a single location that will be convenient for NW OKC, Edmond, the inner Northside, along with Moore/SW OKC/Norman. In OKC, Costco will need at least two locations. In Tulsa, it can get by with one simply because of the layout of the city.

Okay, so say they build a Costco around 71st & Memorial. How is driving from Owasso to there any different than someone from Norman driving to Western & Memorial in OKC? I don't get it...

Okay, so say they build a Costco around 71st & Memorial. How is driving from Owasso to there any different than someone from Norman driving to Western & Memorial in OKC? I don't get it...

It would be similar if there was continuous sprawl from Owasso all the way to Claremore, but there isn't.

Right now, for a big box retailer wanting to enter a market they consider 'risky', its a lot easier in to select a sure site in Tulsa than it is OKC. We all know that Costco will do very well in OKC, but the formula used by most retailers that works for most other cities doesn't say the same thing. There really is no focal point for retail in OKC. In Memphis it is Germantown. In Charlotte it is the Southpark area. In OKC it could have been Penn Square had Belle Isle been something better than a Wal-Mart shopping center. I think in OKC it will eventually be Memorial but it will take at least a couple more years to get there.

Little Rock used to have the same problem, back when NW Arkansas seemed to get all the good retail developments and Little Rock was passed up. They built a few risky, ambitious developments and then after a few years things have really fallen into place.

I often wonder if marketing departments for retail companies pull raw numbers for OKC and Tulsa before they look at geographical demographics. If that is the case, OKC would have a lower percentage of households with incomes > $175,000 because of Nichols Hills, while Tulsa's version of Nichols Hills is in Tulsa, therefore making Tulsa appear more attractive.

I often wonder if marketing departments for retail companies pull raw numbers for OKC and Tulsa before they look at geographical demographics. If that is the case, OKC would have a lower percentage of households with incomes > $175,000 because of Nichols Hills, while Tulsa's version of Nichols Hills is in Tulsa, therefore making Tulsa appear more attractive.

Almost all retailers look at demographics in a 1-, 3- and 5-mile radius.

Almost all retailers look at demographics in a 1-, 3- and 5-mile radius.

True, and this is where OKC gets killed every time, unfortunately.

The ironic reality, however, is that once Costco opens here its results will invariably dramaticly exceed projections, just like Whole Foods and others have, and OKC will certainly exceed Tulsa's numbers its too bad our lack of density skews our numbers so badly, because it makes the numbers lie.

Yep, it seems every new retailer that opens here blows their projections completely out of the water.

I'm sure the people at the Chamber who are employed full-time to recruit new retailers have put together an impressive presentation. They have lots of concrete data they can now sell to others.

There are a lot of example as to why the demographics don't represent the true story in OKC. For example the Horison Group that built the outlet mall exceed their projected sales and added on right away. Penn square is one of many properties owned by Simon. As of last year it was the best performing mall in their chain. the Macy's in Penn Square is one of the top grossing Macys stores in the chain. We may not look good on paper but our recors speaks for itself.

The lack of competition also doesn't hurt...

Demographics only show incomes and the like but do not take into consideration general cost of living factors and disposable income.

Incomes in Oklahoma are lower than many other states but because the cost of living is so low, people tend to have lots of disposable income.

So, the typical numbers used don't tell the full story. And as more and more retailers move in and experience great success, that will be easier to convey to other prospects.


Remember, the Chamber has a full-time person who does nothing but court new retailers. There are also incentives available.

There are a lot of example as to why the demographics don't represent the true story in OKC. For example the Horison Group that built the outlet mall exceed their projected sales and added on right away. Penn square is one of many properties owned by Simon. As of last year it was the best performing mall in their chain. the Macy's in Penn Square is one of the top grossing Macys stores in the chain. We may not look good on paper but our recors speaks for itself.


Though I imagine it is a significantly lesser gross, I have heard the Buckle at PSM is one of their better volume locations.

On the otherhand, there are cases where a retailer was planning on both a Tulsa and OKC location, and the OKC location gets the shaft because the Tulsa location didn't perform up to expectations. There was a recent case of this but I forget which retailer it was. It was something that most certainly would have been supported in OKC. Sometimes retail we get in OKC depends on how well it does in Tulsa.

It would be great if somehow an OKC and Tulsa location for Costco could be announced at the same time. Costco isn't an upscale retailer. I don't see a reason, even using the formulas they use, that they should consider OKC to be riskier than Tulsa.

On the otherhand, there are cases where a retailer was planning on both a Tulsa and OKC location, and the OKC location gets the shaft because the Tulsa location didn't perform up to expectations. There was a recent case of this but I forget which retailer it was. It was something that most certainly would have been supported in OKC.

I think you're talking about La Madeleine's.

On the otherhand, there are cases where a retailer was planning on both a Tulsa and OKC location, and the OKC location gets the shaft because the Tulsa location didn't perform up to expectations. There was a recent case of this but I forget which retailer it was. It was something that most certainly would have been supported in OKC. Sometimes retail we get in OKC depends on how well it does in Tulsa.

It would be great if somehow an OKC and Tulsa location for Costco could be announced at the same time. Costco isn't an upscale retailer. I don't see a reason, even using the formulas they use, that they should consider OKC to be riskier than Tulsa. A prime example of OKC getting the shaft is LaMadeleine's French Bakery. The company opened a corporate store in Tulsa on Cherry Street about 2 years ago and it is the "lowest performing" store in the entire company and there are about 62 locations across the USA..I frequent the LaMadeleine's in Frisco on Hwy 121 and was told by 2 different management staff that OKC will probably not get one because of Tulsa's poor performance. On the contrary,I believe it would quite well in OKC because I have also heard from management staff at the stores down here in DFW that they get tons of OKC people eating in their cafes and always asking when will OKC get one? Do not understand why they would be doing poor in Tulsa as all their other stores nationwide do well!

On the otherhand, there are cases where a retailer was planning on both a Tulsa and OKC location, and the OKC location gets the shaft because the Tulsa location didn't perform up to expectations. There was a recent case of this but I forget which retailer it was. It was something that most certainly would have been supported in OKC. Sometimes retail we get in OKC depends on how well it does in Tulsa.

It would be great if somehow an OKC and Tulsa location for Costco could be announced at the same time. Costco isn't an upscale retailer. I don't see a reason, even using the formulas they use, that they should consider OKC to be riskier than Tulsa.Sorry in advance if there are any Tulsa lovers and/or livers on this board that read this, but I wouldn't mind seeing an OKC only announcement.

Sorry in advance if there are any Tulsa lovers and/or livers on this board that read this, but I wouldn't mind seeing an OKC only announcement.

Me either, but an announcement for both cities would be far better than Tulsa first in then OKC a few years later like a poster above hinted at.

A prime example of OKC getting the shaft is LaMadeleine's French Bakery. The company opened a corporate store in Tulsa on Cherry Street about 2 years ago and it is the "lowest performing" store in the entire company and there are about 62 locations across the USA..I frequent the LaMadeleine's in Frisco on Hwy 121 and was told by 2 different management staff that OKC will probably not get one because of Tulsa's poor performance. On the contrary,I believe it would quite well in OKC because I have also heard from management staff at the stores down here in DFW that they get tons of OKC people eating in their cafes and always asking when will OKC get one? Do not understand why they would be doing poor in Tulsa as all their other stores nationwide do well!

LaMadeleine kinda sucks. Good bread, but as for the rest it's poorly done French inspired fast casual food. If you don't know French food, it's probably ok, but if you really like French it's just plain lame. It's like Airport kiosk French food.

LaMadeleine kinda sucks. Good bread, but as for the rest it's poorly done French inspired fast casual food. If you don't know French food, it's probably ok, but if you really like French it's just plain lame. It's like Airport kiosk French food.

Does OKC even have a French restaurant?

Does OKC even have a French restaurant?

La Baguette Bistro.

Does OKC even have a French restaurant?

Have you not been to La Baguette on North May? Easily one of OKC's best restaurants. Owned and operated by brothers Michel and Alain Buthion , who come to our city from Grenoble, France. They are restaurant treasures in Oklahoma. You should go for breakfast, lunch, dinner and weekend brunch.

So when to expect any announcements about if costco will come memorial and western. Anybody has an inside scoop.

La Baguette Bistro.

La Baguette Bistro is worlds better than LaMadeleine.

I would much rather have a Trader Joe's. I've shopped at Costco with my kids and don't see it as a glaring hole in our local retail offerings. Even the lack of Trader Joe's doesn't bother me much, as I fear they would hurt some of our local stores.

I am curious if this will help our liquor laws change in the future:

High-point Budweiser products approved for Oklahoma | News OK (http://newsok.com/high-point-budweiser-products-approved-for-oklahoma/article/3883837)

I am curious if this will help our liquor laws change in the future:

High-point Budweiser products approved for Oklahoma | News OK (http://newsok.com/high-point-budweiser-products-approved-for-oklahoma/article/3883837)

http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/35036-end-3-2-beer-oklahoma.html

http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/35036-end-3-2-beer-oklahoma.html

Ah, sorry to be tardy to the party...

Does this mean refrigeration in the liquor store now? Fat Tire?

I am absolutely sure they will have multiple locations in OKC.

It only makes sense for the size of the market and their need for economies of scale when it comes to their distribution model.

I would say at least three in the near future.

I doubt three. If you look at similar metro areas the size of OKC, they have 1 maybe two locations. New Orleans has zero. Louisville has one. Jacksonville has one. Memphis has two. Milwaukee has two.

Even metros larger than OKC don't have many. Columbus has a metro population of 1.8 million and only one costco. Indianapolis has only two.

Does this mean refrigeration in the liquor store now? Fat Tire?

Oh man, if they only sold their Vodka out of a freezer that would save me an 8 hour wait.

I doubt three. If you look at similar metro areas the size of OKC, they have 1 maybe two locations. New Orleans has zero. Louisville has one. Jacksonville has one. Memphis has two. Milwaukee has two.

Even metros larger than OKC don't have many. Columbus has a metro population of 1.8 million and only one costco. Indianapolis has only two.

I think it just comes down to the market. You mention Columbus having one, but Cincinnati metro has 2. The Cleveland area has 3. Toledo is getting a 2nd one and they half the size of OKC. The Detroit area has 10. Grand Rapids has 2. All these cities also have comparable or higher numbers of Sam's Club locations.

So you really can't just go by Population = This Many Locations and stick with it. Many local dynamics also has to come into play. I think they'll have a tough fight here against Walmart, but perhaps they might also find that a lot of people are wanting to abandon Wally World as fast as possible. If we look at Detroit, those locations are all in the suburbs where the wealth and population is. So it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to see an Edmond, NW OKC, Norman, Yukon, SW OKC, and Midwest City store.

I doubt three. If you look at similar metro areas the size of OKC, they have 1 maybe two locations. New Orleans has zero. Louisville has one. Jacksonville has one. Memphis has two. Milwaukee has two.

Even metros larger than OKC don't have many. Columbus has a metro population of 1.8 million and only one costco. Indianapolis has only two.

Albuquerque which is much smaller than okc has 3 costco locations.....

Albuquerque which is much smaller than okc has 3 costco locations.....


And by the way they are killing sam's

The hard SW corner of W. Memorial and N. Western (south of the turnpike) just traded hands on 8/13/2013 for $3,489,000 for 8 acres.
That's $24.30 per square foot!

The seller is Houghton Heights Limited Partnership which I traced to Don Karchmer (a local developer).
The buyer is Western Healthcare Partners who I traced to G. David Neff (another local developer / Builder).
Here is his bio:
http://www.gdavidneff.com/about/g-david-neff

Here is the county assessor link:
Leonard Sullivan Oklahoma County Assessor Real Property Detail Sheet (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R134381015)

Don also owns the adjacent 92 acres, but I wonder if this 8 acres was carved out for Costco?

I was sold by him but bought by Western Healthcare Parteners. Sounds like a surgery center of some sort will go there.

This is who bought it.

G. David Neff- Your Oklahoma Expert for Custom Professional Buildings (http://www.gdavidneff.com/)

You must have edited your post same tme as me. :)

I could see this being a St. Anthonys North complex

I wouldn't be surprised if this was part of a deal with Costco.

I also heard Costco at that site will be part of a much larger development, including possibly Crate & Barrel.

COSTCO usually needs about 18 acres.

COSTCO usually needs about 18 acres.

If they are part of the bigger development, they could get by with less.

The stores themselves are only about 3-4 acres.

I know a few years ago when they were looking they wanted 15 to 18 acres for 145,000 sf warehouse retail building and a separate gas station and they didn't want to share parking. If I recall correctly they wanted 750 spaces minimum for parking.

They do have a "newer" business concept that is smaller and can fit on a smaller lot.

Looking back at post #51 and then looking up the Planning Commission meeting this is what i find.

SIRE Public Access (http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/meeting.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&docid=51456)

Meeting notes from June 13th.

Western HealthPlex.

I still think Saints North

Ive heard its St Anthonys as well.

On the other side, I would expect a Costco to eventually happen with a large scale development surrounding it to follow.

The hard SW corner of W. Memorial and N. Western (south of the turnpike) just traded hands on 8/13/2013 for $3,489,000 for 8 acres.
That's $24.30 per square foot!

The seller is Houghton Heights Limited Partnership which I traced to Don Karchmer (a local developer).
The buyer is Western Healthcare Partners who I traced to G. David Neff (another local developer / Builder).
Here is his bio:
About G. David Neff- G. David Neff (http://www.gdavidneff.com/about/g-david-neff)

Here is the county assessor link:
Leonard Sullivan Oklahoma County Assessor Real Property Detail Sheet (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R134381015)

Don also owns the adjacent 92 acres, but I wonder if this 8 acres was carved out for Costco?
Pete - I think this is $10 per sf.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was part of a deal with Costco.

I also heard Costco at that site will be part of a much larger development, including possibly Crate & Barrel.

Unfortunately Oklahoma City doesn't have the economics demographics that C&B looks for. But who knows.

Unfortunately Oklahoma City doesn't have the economics demographics that C&B looks for. But who knows.

OKC could get a Container Store though which I think is a similar concept. Little Rock has one. For C&B, OKC would run into the same problem it has with a lot of retailers, which is why they usually end up in Tulsa. If they decide to overlook that, I can see it being possible. Maybe they know if they can get in the same development as Costco, which will draw from much further than the 5 mile radius they usually look at, it could work.

The hard SW corner of W. Memorial and N. Western (south of the turnpike) just traded hands on 8/13/2013 for $3,489,000 for 8 acres.
That's $24.30 per square foot!

The seller is Houghton Heights Limited Partnership which I traced to Don Karchmer (a local developer).
The buyer is Western Healthcare Partners who I traced to G. David Neff (another local developer / Builder).
Here is his bio:
About G. David Neff- G. David Neff (http://www.gdavidneff.com/about/g-david-neff)

Here is the county assessor link:
Leonard Sullivan Oklahoma County Assessor Real Property Detail Sheet (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/AN-R.asp?ACCOUNTNO=R134381015)

Don also owns the adjacent 92 acres, but I wonder if this 8 acres was carved out for Costco?




So is that good or bad news?

Good news because a hospital is being built there. Bad news for anyone hoping it would be Costco.

So is OKC getting a Costco?

Yes, they will be coming, just nothing official yet.

I've been told Cabela's has also looked into the site in question.

OKC could get a Container Store though which I think is a similar concept. Little Rock has one. For C&B, OKC would run into the same problem it has with a lot of retailers, which is why they usually end up in Tulsa. If they decide to overlook that, I can see it being possible. Maybe they know if they can get in the same development as Costco, which will draw from much further than the 5 mile radius they usually look at, it could work.

why is that?

why is that?

Haven't you been following sgt. pepper? Everything that OKC is lacking is due to Walmart saturation.

Haven't you been following sgt. pepper? Everything that OKC is lacking is due to Walmart saturation.

That's only the grocery market that is affected/hindered by Wal-Mart.

Upscale stores like Crate & Barrel may take issue with lack of enough high-income rooftops within a 5 mile radius.

Pete - I think this is $10 per sf.

Yeah, my bad. I did my off hand math too quickly.

Here in Lubbock on business. Just saw costco under construction. By the way little over a mile away from SAMs. At 630 pm there were propably about 150 vehicles for the construction crew on site. Lots of people working. Looked it up they are planned for a 100 day construction start to finish to opening.