look at Sequoyah HS in Cherokee county and all of their new facilities that the Cherokees have built.

I'm not sure what you mean ultimatesooner. Did the Cherokee Tribe build this school and other facilities or was it built with state gambling tax proceeds? If the Tribe built it, then you are only helping me make my point. If it was built with state funds, then that isn't much to show for all the casinos that line the interstates.

In the Oklahoma City area we have had to levy a tax on ourselves to get our school facilities back up to any decent standards and on a statewide basis, teacher pay in Oklahoma doesn't match regional standards. The Oklahoma Legislature talks a lot about education, but our schools still aren't the priority that they should be.

I'm not sure what you mean ultimatesooner. Did the Cherokee Tribe build this school and other facilities or was it built with state gambling tax proceeds? If the Tribe built it, then you are only helping me make my point. If it was built with state funds, then that isn't much to show for all the casinos that line the interstates.


The tribe Donated money to build it...the money didn't come from the extra money the state is making from casinos, because Sequoyah is a Private school. However, I'm sure that the money the Cherokees are making off of their casinos is what led them to this donation...

The tribe Donated money to build it...the money didn't come from the extra money the state is making from casinos, because Sequoyah is a Private school. However, I'm sure that the money the Cherokees are making off of their casinos is what led them to this donation...

Thanks for the info Nuclear_2525. So how does that relate to the point I was suggesting? That being, that our public schools are not better off as a result of state sponsored gambling.

Anyone who actually believed the state lottery would save schools needed to get hit by a car. I laughed everytime I heard "education lottery" used. Morons...its a freaking lottery like every state. The only difference, we are still pathetic with scratch offs, one actually state drawing and then the Powerball. Hopefully we'll see things improve.

venture79, I don't believe anyone thought it would SAVE schools. Not even me. It's merely a supplement for school funding. Who said public schools needed to be saved? Improve is a better word. And seriously, it doesn't matter the quality of education. When children go to school in fear every day (being bullied), education means crap.

It takes time for a lottery to build up and introduce more games. I've seen this done in other states. So yes, things will improve.

I used to support the idea of Indian casinos. But after a visit to the Cherokee Casino in Roland this past weekend, I'm not so sure I do anymore.

It wasn't my idea to even stop there; my mom and grandma were the ones who wanted to stop. We had taken a trip to Fort Smith to visit a relative and on the way back they suggested a stop and I went along with it.

When I walked in the door, I just wanted to turn around and leave. First of all, I'd say the median age of the casino's patronage that day was about 60. Many of them were smokers and most were overweight -- quite a few I'd say were even morbidly obese. I looked at some of the faces of these people and what I saw was depression, poverty and desperation. These folks didn't have any business spending what little money they've got on slot machines and poker tables. One old woman I saw at one of the slot machines was hooked up to an oxygen tank and even she was smoking. I saw people missing their teeth. One old guy I saw only had one upper tooth, and it was as yellow as a banana. I was almost run over by a fat woman scrambling to get to the free Pepsi fountain. She took not one, but five cups of free Pepsi. She acted like the world was about the end and she needed as much as she could get her fat little hands on. And another woman I saw I think may have been a prostitute. These people are the face of Indian casinos.

My point is this: These Indian casinos aren't glamourous; they're nothing but magnates for uneducated and impoverished people looking to strike it rich. Sadly, few ever really do. These casinos take advantage of those poor people who don't have the sense to spend what little money they have on more important things.

If this is the face of Indian gaming, then I'm sorry I ever supported it.

Oklahoma is a poor enough state as it is. Last I checked we're in the bottom 10 in per capita income. We may not think it's so poor of a state when we're driving down NW Expressway or through Edmond or Nichols Hills. But once you get outside the OKC and Tulsa metros, it's really bad. And I'm afraid these casinos are only going to make people in our state (especially the rural areas) even poorer.

I used to support the idea of Indian casinos. But after a visit to the Cherokee Casino in Roland this past weekend, I'm not so sure I do anymore. . . .

. . . These Indian casinos aren't glamourous; they're nothing but magnates for uneducated and impoverished people looking to strike it rich. Sadly, few ever really do. These casinos take advantage of those poor people who don't have the sense to spend what little money they have on more important things.

If this is the face of Indian gaming, then I'm sorry I ever supported it.

Eloquently put Moondog. I doubt that the Governor or the members of the Legislature that supported the idea of legalizing gambling ever visit the casinos they were complicit in establishing.

These are many of the same people that wind up in emergency rooms and utilizing other social services that more than off set the dubious positive economic impact of legalized gambling. Nationwide, 18,000 people without access to health services die each year of problems directly linked to their lack of health insurance. The US population as a whole is becoming less and less healthy and the costs of their health care will continue to escalate. While our political leadership continues to focus on economic development as the solution to all problems, our young people are witness every day to the vast divide difference between the “family values” espoused by politicians and their actions.

Sorry to get off topic.

Sorry folks, but I do not believe that the government can regulate personal choices, and neither should we. A woman smoking and using an oxygen tank? What on earth does that have to do with gambling? She'll still be doing that at home. Morbidly obese people get that way because they just don't give a crap about themselves (genetic medical conditions excluded), not because they lost to a hand of poker.

This country has the problems it has because all of us keep pointing fingers at the wrong people and the wrong problems. The 20th Century brought us fast food, soft drinks, drive-thru menus and smoking commercials, not to mention the good ol' remote control.

Oklahoma WAS in the bottom ten in terms of per capita income. We're slowly working our way out of those rankings (in 1995 Oklahoma was ranked 46, last year we ranked 39).

Now, do I like rural Indian casinos? No, too smokey, too stuffy and not enough entertainment. I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't believe gambling is where we should start when it comes to poverty and health problems. You have to nip that in the bud. The problems start LONG before anyone steps foot into a casino. Every seen overweight parents with overweight children on their way into KFC? Bet ya those overweight children will grow up to be just like their parents... diabetic problems, arthritis, heart complications and any other cross to bear from obesity. And on continues the cycle.

Oklahoma WAS in the bottom ten in terms of per capita income. We're slowly working our way out of those rankings (in 1995 Oklahoma was ranked 46, last year we ranked 39).

I knew we left the bottom 10, but I could swear I read somewhere else a while back that we were back down to like 42nd in the country. But really... 39th, 42nd... 46th... Still not great.

Point is that we are moving in the right direction. But consider this, Moondog. Look at rural areas in every state in this country. They pale in comparison with metropolitan areas. Ever been to Bakersfield, CA? How about rural Arizona, or even southern Illinois. Few rural cities are wealthy, and I mean few.

Nope, we are not back down to 42nd. We've held at 39 in 2004 and 2005, and according to estimates for 2006 we will be moving up to 38. Like I said, we're headed in the right direction.

I used to support the idea of Indian casinos. But after a visit to the Cherokee Casino in Roland this past weekend, I'm not so sure I do anymore.

It wasn't my idea to even stop there; my mom and grandma were the ones who wanted to stop. We had taken a trip to Fort Smith to visit a relative and on the way back they suggested a stop and I went along with it.

When I walked in the door, I just wanted to turn around and leave. First of all, I'd say the median age of the casino's patronage that day was about 60. Many of them were smokers and most were overweight -- quite a few I'd say were even morbidly obese. I looked at some of the faces of these people and what I saw was depression, poverty and desperation. These folks didn't have any business spending what little money they've got on slot machines and poker tables. One old woman I saw at one of the slot machines was hooked up to an oxygen tank and even she was smoking. I saw people missing their teeth. One old guy I saw only had one upper tooth, and it was as yellow as a banana. I was almost run over by a fat woman scrambling to get to the free Pepsi fountain. She took not one, but five cups of free Pepsi. She acted like the world was about the end and she needed as much as she could get her fat little hands on. And another woman I saw I think may have been a prostitute. These people are the face of Indian casinos.

My point is this: These Indian casinos aren't glamourous; they're nothing but magnates for uneducated and impoverished people looking to strike it rich. Sadly, few ever really do. These casinos take advantage of those poor people who don't have the sense to spend what little money they have on more important things.

If this is the face of Indian gaming, then I'm sorry I ever supported it.

Oklahoma is a poor enough state as it is. Last I checked we're in the bottom 10 in per capita income. We may not think it's so poor of a state when we're driving down NW Expressway or through Edmond or Nichols Hills. But once you get outside the OKC and Tulsa metros, it's really bad. And I'm afraid these casinos are only going to make people in our state (especially the rural areas) even poorer.

This same argument could be made for bars and liquor stores, especially in rural areas.

I don't think we should shut down casinos or bars simply because of the comparatively few who are irresponsible. Even if we shut down bars and casinos to "help" these people, they still have the same mindset. That isn't "solving" the problem. To correct things here in Oklahoma, we need to focus on education from an early age. When we get educated people as citizens and leaders, over time the whole city from top to bottom will change for the better and high quality products and services will become a standard that is desired among a higher percentage of people.

Personally, I avoid the "ghetto" casinos. I've been to WinStar. Except for the outside of it, I thought the casino was a very nice casino. I look forward to visiting both Riverwind just south of Norman and Firelake Grand in Shawnee when they open up.

I can see it now: I'm on a pleasant stroll along the canal and I find a quarter on the ground. I walk up to a nice and convenient slot machine. I place the quarter in and DING DING DING!!!


In all reality, I think a casino would be good just south of the current I-40 along on the canal next to the soon to be formed boulevard, once the highway is demolished.

If we get a Bricktown Casino...I have to say a big NO to it being Indian ran. Let someone like MGM Mirage or Harrahs come in and run it. At least then we know they will push it to help bring in regional, even national, traffic which just means more $$$ for OKC. Yes it has the gambling, but the dinning and entertainment venues that would come with a resort like that would be more than worth it.

Oklahoma is a poor enough state as it is. Last I checked we're in the bottom 10 in per capita income. We may not think it's so poor of a state when we're driving down NW Expressway or through Edmond or Nichols Hills. But once you get outside the OKC and Tulsa metros, it's really bad. And I'm afraid these casinos are only going to make people in our state (especially the rural areas) even poorer.

Awesomely stated. The point isn't about the gummint enforcing decisions, the point is that the government becomes a pimp for the economic masochism that *perpetuates* the very kind of dependency the lottery alludes to solve.

Yes, the lady on oxygen will still be there, and the obese woman running to the pepsi machine will still be obese. But why on earth to we want to create a situation where the state wants to *depend* on that kind of human condition for additional income?

-SoonerDave

If we want to do the casino thing right, the best thing would be to zone an area down or up the river from Bricktown as casino-legal. Then have some very stringent zoning guidelines, e.g., size, structure, etc. in order to start with as many first class, high to midrise structures as possible (no 1-story converted strip malls).

Connect it to Bricktown and the convention district via the water taxis. I think that's a definite recipe for success.

Bricktown ought to stay seperated from the casinos in some way, yet if we have casinos, it would pay to have them readily accessible to convention-goers. I think my proposal would be a win-win.

I'd still never go, and Bricktown would remain as it is -- an entertainment district rather than a gambling district.

It sound Moondog also described the average Lottery player also. If the state can take advantage of these people why can't Indians?

Kerry:

It's because the state is doing it "for the children."

If the Indians were to attack this state-protected monopoly, it would, in truth take money away from our public schools -- money which in large part is already being depended on to service debt taken on as a result of bonds taken out by our higher ed system.

The bottom line is that any disruption to that income stream could be a serious problem for the state.

I don't think Bricktown would be the appropriate place for a casino. Bricktown needs to have a unique atmosphere, unlike any found anywhere else. I think the Oklahoma River would be a nice place for a casino district, possibly with a couple of mock casino boats over the water.

The Natives of this state are preparing for the future of oklahoma-style gaming. Sure it's not quite the vegas-style gaming but it will get there and get there soon. There is no doubt that this "pay-to-play" requirement will not last.

Class III gaming is already here and the full class III gaming on every game is on the way. The state of Oklahoma has backed away from EVERY gaming restriction it has every placed on the tribes, EVERY one of them. Once the state begins to see how much money they can make off of the state-compacted games they will cave in, they always have whether by choice or by mandate.

If there is a bad feeling of the gambling behavior remember that the gaming will take place in a closed building not out in the open. It will happen out of view. Casino's are much more pro-active in checking id's and keeping out minors than are any adult-oriented establishment in Oklahoma.

Gaming regulations have just changed to allow the tribes to believe in the longevity of gaming. Before the changes in the laws the tribes did not know if they would be allowed to continue to conduct gaming businesses. Would you invest $10 million in a business if you didn't know if your business would be legal in 6 months?

The tribes are just now starting to build facilities that are worthy of visiting. Those old tin buildings are being replaced by very nice facilities.

Some of the nicest Harrah's casino's are Native-run.

If an outside company comes to OKC to build a casino don't you realize that any profits will be leaving the state? The only way to ensure that profits stay in state would be to have a tribal casino. The tribes aren't going anywhere ala Phillips. The tribes did a great job in building an entire industry in Oklahoma that did not exist at all 20 years ago.

I personally think we've expanded gambling enough in this state. No need for anymore. The market is becoming over saturated. We don't want to turn Oklahoma City into Las Vegas.

Yeah because the Las Vegas economy is terrible.

Yeah because the Las Vegas economy is terrible.

No because Las Vegas has developed itself as the casino megatropolis. Why copy? Let's be unique for once.

here is what i want to say is Brad Henry is our gov because of the economy...there is no way istook could of beat him...i would even have told him so....But he is for the people....brad henry brad henry....he is a great gov...dont you agree.....askins kicked ....but enough about government (oh that is what this is all about HA hA) indians.....a casino in bricktown would hurt the entertainment that is in place already.....casinos will keep people inside instead of club hoping and restaurant hoping....also indian casinos can pay more for entertainment than the bricktown clubs aND RESTAURANTS AGREE
..

johhny, I more-less agree. I think a casino physically in Bricktown would detract from the 'family' type environment that you're trying to create there. Further, I think it would hurt other businesses.

What I think *might* work is having a casino on the river and running a water taxi all the way out there. Allow the casino to have its own separate parking, but make it accessible to all of the hotel guests, etc. who will be staying in Bricktown for conventions.

The more entertainment options there are, the better the draw will be for big money convention and tourist business.

your damn right............................

Yeah because the Las Vegas economy is terrible.


I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, however, in case you are serious... That is a bunch of b.s. The Las Vegas economy is thriving. Always has, always will... Why? Because they know how to attract people.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, however, in case you are serious... That is a bunch of b.s. The Las Vegas economy is thriving. Always has, always will... Why? Because they know how to attract people.

Yeah, it was sarcasm...:)

Las Vegas has one of the fastest growing (if not the fastest growing) economies in the country.

as a levelheaded resident, I can say without reservation that there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever that we cannot legalize full-scale Vegas gambling for both private and tribal entities in this state.

construction of casinos would have to occur within properly zoned areas (done at the municipal level), and in OKC's case, an area along the canal would be PERFECT. OKC is in a prime position of economic geostrategery in that it is centrally located, and could in fact impinge upon the Vegas market with the proper foresight, marketing, and development initiatives.

The Wynns, Maloofs, Harrah's, and others would absolutely be interested in such a project. you legalize it wholesale, and then regulate it at the municipal level. such a move could really throw the economy into an unprecedented direction, and OKC could become the fastest growing community in the entire country.

get it done, sooner rather than later!

If it takes a full-scale casino to make us the "fastest growing community in the entire country," I will be delighted to live without that title.

Keep Bricktown casino-free.

-SoonerDave

If it takes a full-scale casino to make us the "fastest growing community in the entire country," I will be delighted to live without that title.

Keep Bricktown casino-free.

-SoonerDave

SD: Not many people are suggesting casinos in Bricktown.

Midtowner -

I think the post just above mine was talking about putting one on the canal.

-SoonerDave

construction of casinos would have to occur within properly zoned areas (done at the municipal level),

You might have to teach our munciple leaders what zoning means first.


The Wynns, Maloofs, Harrah's, and others would absolutely be interested in such a project.

Wasn't the DiBartolos of 49er fame trying to get gambling legalized here about 10 years ago?

I'm not sure if gambling is as big a deal as it used to be. Most Americans all live within a days drive of a casino. I think having real gambling, as opposed to our pay-to-play gambling would be a bigger draw than it is now, but I can't see it making us the fastest growing economy in the country whether SD wants it or not.

Vegas draws because you can do ANYTHING there and it's all done in excess. It is an international marvel. It would have to be done in grand style here for it to have a large impact. It's not like your Shreveports and Tunica's are taking over the world and they do have some nice properties.

Midtowner -

I think the post just above mine was talking about putting one on the canal.

-SoonerDave

I stand corrected. Didn't catch that. Along the river, maybe -- or on an as-yet undeveloped part of the canal -- that I could see.

In bricktown? I don't think that's very likely.

At the risk of getting flamed on here, I wanted to throw in my 2¢.

I'm completely opposed to casinos in our downtown area.

OKC has too much going for it to implode itself in that way. I travel all around the country for a living, so I've experienced Vegas and Atlantic City and Mississippi and "fill in the blank" first hand many times....they're all fine for entertainment, but do we really want to see OKC become such a one dimensional and fragmented place? ....or a great place to visit, but a terrible place to live? That's exactly how I'd describe those places. I know there are people that love those places...and people that live in those places...and people who will disagree with me, but to me it's more of a social fabric question.
I no more want to be a "casino" city than an "oil" town. Diversify and grow up into an urban center we can be proud of. A place for our families and children to experience culture. Do we really want casinos to dominate our city center? Are we looking towards the quick dollar or towards the long term impact on our city's culture? I never want us to be known as a "What happens in OKC stays in OKC" kind of place and I sincerely believe that is the legitimate outcome of the this path.

I think it would be cool to have a casino in bricktown or North OKC. I only go to the casinos to play poker and since Remington Park can't have cards I don't go to the one casino in the city.

I don't think we'll see a casino in Bricktown/downtown although I could be wrong. There would be too many hurdles to jump through.

I come and go on the whole idea. I like playing roulette but I prefer to do it in someone elses city. Next time you are in Vegas drive off the "strip" a few miles and see if that is what you have in mind for OKC. I was out there a few months ago and out of boredom took the shuttle out to Sam's Town. We passed many strip centers with makeshift casinos in them and homeless looking people not of US orgin hanging out aroud the enterance. Throw in all of the porno fliers and I don't think a casino "district" near downtown would be a good idea. Vegas tried to clean up the porn and couldn't do it. You can't be family friendly and adult oriented at the same time.

I don't really have any desire to have the casinos downtown, but I don't think they destroy towns or create bad neighborhoods. I know that we have bad neighborhoods without casinos and I know that Vegas has had more nice neighborhoods built (Summerlin, Red Rock, etc.) and even urban development (lots of condo towers and now City Center) in it in the last ten years than we have despite their gambling economy. But Vegas is way more than just its gambling these days. So, it's hard to really compare or to guesstimate what the impact impact on Oklahoma City.

I just like the way our downtown is headed, as modest as its improvements have been. I don't think we need gambling to spur any development there at this point, so I wouldn't hit that panic button just yet. I do kind of like the proposal in NE OKC, simply because it's a full blown luxury development and I don't think there's anyway we get something that nice without a casino attached to it at this point and with it being miles outside of downtown, I don't think it would impact the hotels there that bad.

At the end of the day, however, I'm not sure that Oklahoma style Indian gaming is really that competitive or that big of a draw. You can still do Vegas on the cheap, have more entertainment options and have much better gaming that's strictly regulated. I think that some casinos have helped draw from the border states via our highways and that's fine. But before I supported any gaming downtown, I'd want it to be something that would fill the airport at least on the weekends and I just don't see any casino doing that in Oklahoma with our current gaming rules.

I come and go on the whole idea. I like playing roulette but I prefer to do it in someone elses city. Next time you are in Vegas drive off the "strip" a few miles and see if that is what you have in mind for OKC. I was out there a few months ago and out of boredom took the shuttle out to Sam's Town. We passed many strip centers with makeshift casinos in them and homeless looking people not of US orgin hanging out aroud the enterance. Throw in all of the porno fliers and I don't think a casino "district" near downtown would be a good idea. Vegas tried to clean up the porn and couldn't do it. You can't be family friendly and adult oriented at the same time.

Those fliers are a result of their stance on prostitution not gambling. And we are talking about one casino not an entire city built on gambling and adult activities. And I would wager that parts of OKC are just as bad as bad parts of vegas, it has nothing to do with casinos.

Those fliers are a result of their stance on prostitution not gambling. And we are talking about one casino not an entire city built on gambling and adult activities. And I would wager that parts of OKC are just as bad as bad parts of vegas, it has nothing to do with casinos.

Even the bad parts of OKC aren't as bad as the bad parts of other cities. You still do not want to be caught in the bad OKC parts but they aren't as bad as other cities by far.

Gambling and prostitution go hand in hand. There are prostitutes in Oklahoma casino's. I was coming out of Newcastle and there was a very nice looking older white lady in her late 30's. We talked for a bit then she said "you like white girls?" and pointed to a carload of young blonde white chicks in the parking lot. Did gambling bring them here? Who knows but prostitution has been here far longer than gambling. When the oil was going on there was prostitution. Heck you could bring in a fortune 500 company and prostitution would follow it. Dell has probably contributed to the prostitution thing in OKC. Bass Pro has probably contributed to prostitution in OKC. Bring in a big-time church and prostitution would follow it (though not to the extent of other types of businesses). Where money is prostitution follows, guaranteed.