I can post pics later of some of the development there, but I do want to say the Little Rock developments really aren't much to write home about. However, compared to developments like Belle Isle they hit it out of the park. The problem is OKC developers always go for the absolute bare minimum in terms of architectural design.

We have a lot more retail development here in OKC than just Belle Isle...

If anyone needs a new shirt, by the way, I'd recommend NW 16th (they've got about 4 cool shops) or N Broadway (which has about (5-6 clothing shops now). Most of my friends in OKC don't exactly wear Old Navy...

I would consider these two districts in suburban Houston lifestyle centers:

Sugar Land's Townsquare: Sugar Land Town Square | Sugar Land Shopping, Dining, & Events (http://www.sugarlandtownsquare.com/)

4275

And in the Woodlands, probably the nicest I've been to, a combination of the Town Centre, Market Street, and the Woodland's Waterway. It also incorporates the Woodland's Mall. These blow nearly all of the planned developments in OKC out of the water and in some ways has a leg up on Bricktown as it currently stands. The woodland's is an elaborate example, but there is no reason that Belle Isle couldn't have become a lite version of this and certainly no reason Edmond, which doesn't have much in the way of urban areas at all, or any suburb for that matter couldn't still build something like this.

Home - Market Street The Woodlands (http://www.marketstreet-thewoodlands.com/default)
The Woodlands Commercial Development- Where Business Lives Well (http://www.thewoodlands-commercial.com/tc_plan.html)

42764277427842794280

Also, Montgomery Plaza on 7th St. in Ft. Worth is probably somewhat of a lifestyle center.

4281

^^^ Those developments look amazing. While I wouldn't expect OKC or even Tulsa to be able to support something of that caliber, we certainly could do better than Belle Isle. Unfortunately developers will never propose anything like that because they know they can get away with the bare minimum here. It would have been nice though to at least see something closer to that in lower Bricktown rather than more generic suburbia that completely ignores the canal.

Everyone here knows what a lifestyle center is.... Y'all will just tempt Kerry to post a million pics of something in France that we should aspire to

Everyone here knows what a lifestyle center is.... Y'all will just tempt Kerry to post a million pics of something in France that we should aspire to

Its fun to dream and speculate, but we also need to be realistic. Those extravagant developments in the Houston suburbs are far out of OKC's league. Something like these would be more doable in OKC.

Promenade on Providence - Charlotte

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1331/4602641949_5db7018a12_z.jpg

Promenade at Chenal - Little Rock

http://assets.inarkansas.com/30788/fountain--promenade-at-chenal.jpg

Park Avenue - Little Rock (currently under construction)

http://www.nfl4us.com/wpimages/wp9d2eff42.png

Shopps of Saddle Creek - Memphis (could not find picture)

All would be a significant step above the existing retail centers while not too risky for this market.

RE: lifestyle centers, would the development over there in front of the big box stores by Tinker qualify? I don't have pics but was surprised by the "main street" feel of it???

RE: lifestyle centers, would the development over there in front of the big box stores by Tinker qualify? I don't have pics but was surprised by the "main street" feel of it???

It, like Spring Creek, has a very small section of it that has a lifestyle center feel. Overall that development is more of a power center, like Belle Isle, though done better.

It, like Spring Creek, has a very small section of it that has a lifestyle center feel. Overall that development is more of a power center, like Belle Isle, though done better.

They're two separate developments, the MWC Towne Center Blvd was a separate phase from the strip mall, and actually, the lifestyle center there is now being expanded into the neighborhood behind it. It's a surprisingly nice project and it really underscores how backwards metro OKC retail development is that MWC has the first lifestyle center.

If your land of milk and honey in Little Rock is surrounded by strip malls as well or pad sites then it is the exact same thing.

Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck. The outlet mall, which isnt a lifestyle center IMO but is at least as much as these Arkansas digs, is a step forward but that's a separate market that pulls from out of state. We need more progressive retail developers, but once again, retail in OKC was eviscerated in the 90s by Walmart taking over like nowhere else and is still recovering now.

Maybe if Arkansas was as cannibalized as we were by their largest corporation they wouldn't have Pinnacle or Chenal unless it was a new WM format...

They're two separate developments, the MWC Towne Center Blvd was a separate phase from the strip mall, and actually, the lifestyle center there is now being expanded into the neighborhood behind it. It's a surprisingly nice project and it really underscores how backwards metro OKC retail development is that MWC has the first lifestyle center.

If your land of milk and honey in Little Rock is surrounded by strip malls as well or pad sites then it is the exact same thing.

Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck. The outlet mall, which isnt a lifestyle center IMO but is at least as much as these Arkansas digs, is a step forward but that's a separate market that pulls from out of state. We need more progressive retail developers, but once again, retail in OKC was eviscerated in the 90s by Walmart taking over like nowhere else and is still recovering now.

Maybe if Arkansas was as cannibalized as we were by their largest corporation they wouldn't have Pinnacle or Chenal unless it was a new WM format...

You are probably right. OKC's entire retail problem can probably be traced back to the same root causes as to why there aren't very many nice grocery stores here. Wal-Mart pretty much called all the retail shots during the 2000s when other cities were getting these nicer developments. Nothing was built in OKC unless it was anchored by a Wal-Mart. By the time it looked like the corner was about to be turned in OKC, the 2008 recession hit and the few proposed developments, ones that would have completely changed retail here and brought us more on the level of peer cities, were cancelled. There are signs of life but what OKC really needs is a slam dunk development that's nice enough to make retailers that have been holding out to give this market a second look. I could be wrong, but I am not aware of such a development currently being in the works so OKC is likely SOL for the time being.

And Little Rock is by no means a retail 'Land of milk and honey.' Retail there was terrible until just a few years ago but since the Promenade at Chenal, Midtowne Little Rock, and Pleasant Ridge Towne Center opened it has improved sevenfold, attracting many retailers who don't typically open in cities that small. I would say its arguable whether they are ahead of OKC or not, but that case can be made. However, they are still a good deal behind Tulsa.

Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck...
This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.

I know this is a bit off topic, but if the old Belle Isle plant could have been turned into something like Gasworks Park in Seattle that would have been cool.

This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.

Well even a small quality development would be a good start. OKC's retail environment is so behind and overall so dismal at this point there really isn't anywhere to go but up. It really is disheartening because of that Wal-Mart, the Penn Square area will never come close to reaching the potential it had as a true upscale shopping district. As for NW Expy and Classen, I am thinking a small development with maybe a Container Store, a couple of boutiques and upscale chain restaurants would go good there.

This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.

...and Rand Elliot needs to not design it.

Pete, how's the amassing gone in the past year? Any ideas of who is behind this?

If the streetcar does indeed come right by this area, it would seem that something would happen here sooner rather than later (3 to 6 years instead of 5 to 10)

This was mentioned in another thread and now I'm really interested. Anyone have any updates?

I received an email from DeShawn Heusel, who works for ULI Oklahoma, with an invite to an event at 50 Penn Place.

The event is titled "Envisioning Development at Transit Stations". Those present will hear from national experts and be asked to provide input on what they would like future development to be or look like at various locations along NW Expressway and Classen. The workshop is a next step in the NW Corridor planning that began in 2015.

Not sure exactly what it entails, but could be an interesting discussion. I would assume Pete and Urbanized will be there.

Maybe they will tear down the glass shop directly across Blackwelder, along with the rest of those homes directly east. A little of an eyesore if you ask me.

I think the transit station would honestly be better placed on the north side of Expressway and finding a way to tie in all the development in Belle Isle.

And of course, creating an intersection at Expressway and Classen that is walkable.

A lot of thought really needs to given by city leaders toward the half-mile radius centered at Expressway and Classen because it's going to become the key to whether there's true connectivity between the NW quadrant and the rest of the core. Biking specifically needs to be factored in because this is one of the few places that you can effectively ignore I-44.

It looks like the workshop has more to do with EMBARK and not so much this area. See the article below:

Embark to get strategic help

By: Dale Denwalt The Journal Record August 29, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – Metro officials will get help from a national nonprofit to plan land use near transit stops.

Smart Growth America picked Oklahoma City’s public transportation agency, Embark, as one of nine entities to receive technical assistance. Experts will visit Oklahoma City to help plan and manage transit projects using zoning, land use, low-cost housing and commercial development.

Some of those experts will meet with the public Tuesday in northwest Oklahoma City.

Embark has said there are places in the city that could be explored in the project, linking transit stops with mixed-use or other kinds of development that could encourage more use of the transit service.

A press release from the agency identified examples like 23rd and Classen Boulevard, Pennsylvania Avenue and NW 50th, and two other stops along Northwest Expressway.

Cathy O’Connor, president of the Alliance for Economic Development, said those areas have tremendous potential.

“One of the things that is challenging is we don’t have a lot of very dense development,” O’Connor said. “Even though in an area like Northwest 23rd and Classen, there’s development there but it’s not very dense.”

She said there are different ways planners might direct development.

“There’s the carrot and the stick,” O’Connor said. “Sometimes through the city’s development guidelines they can encourage a certain development. Then other times, we can proactively seek out developers for certain kinds of development.”

The meeting Tuesday will be at 6:30 p.m. on the third floor of 50 Penn Place.

Embark spokesman Michael Scroggins said the planning will focus on both future and existing stops.

“What it’s really aiming to do is further develop a corridor,” Scroggins said.

In the future, Embark could operate a transit service that looks like a bus but operates like a rail car with fewer stops and, possibly, dedicated lanes.

“Maybe there’s a pharmacy” at the stop, Scroggins said. “It could be that there’s an eatery nearby or a small grocer. Those things are all built and planned with transit at the forefront.”

I was surprised to see this thread hadn't been commented on since 2016!

Anyway, does anyone know if land assembly is still going on in this area? With the success we're sure to see at Oak, the many empty lots north of 46th, and the big lot on Classes between 47th and 48th, it feel like something could still be brewing here.

Yes, Zerby continues to slowly add properties in this area, but there are several other unrelated property owners who also have multiple properties.

I'll map it all out at some point.

Took these yesterday.

The area outlined in red is where a ton of acquisitions have taken place over the last decade. However, there are 3-4 different groups with blocks of properties, including the recently-demolished office building along Classen, so I wouldn't expect substantial redevelopment any time soon.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/classennwex112624a.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/classennwex112624b.jpg

Took these yesterday.

The area outlined in red is where a ton of acquisitions have taken place over the last decade. However, there are 3-4 different groups with blocks of properties, including the recently-demolished office building along Classen, so I wouldn't expect substantial redevelopment any time soon.



Pete, if you were to guess, would you bet more on residential development like apartments/condos, or do you think it will be something along the lines of a mixed-development like Oak? I know there is no chatter at all; I'm just wondering what your educated guess would be for a property like this.

Pete, if you were to guess, would you bet more on residential development like apartments/condos, or do you think it will be something along the lines of a mixed-development like Oak? I know there is no chatter at all; I'm just wondering what your educated guess would be for a property like this.

The primary land owner is Teryl Zerby who tends to do big box and fast food; no residential that I'm aware of.

Speaking on the intersection, this would be a great place for a multi lane roundabout.

Speaking on the intersection, this would be a great place for a multi lane roundabout.

I've thought they should go back to a roundabout for a while now!

I've thought they should go back to a roundabout for a while now!
It would be the perfect place for one. There’s enough room. They could build a big water feature or a statue in the middle of it. And in my perfect world, they would build a flyover just for buses.

It would be the perfect place for one. There’s enough room. They could build a big water feature or a statue in the middle of it. And in my perfect world, they would build a flyover just for buses.

Never gonna happen, be nice if it did, though. You do know it used to be one (can't remember if it was a full one or not), right?

Never gonna happen, be nice if it did, though. You do know it used to be one (can't remember if it was a full one or not), right?
Yeah, I think sometime ago I remember someone showing a picture of it being a traffic circle. I don’t know why people would be so opposed to building a roundabout, but they’ll build one out in the middle of nowhere in Northwest OKC..

Yeah, I think sometime ago I remember someone showing a picture of it being a traffic circle. I don’t know why people would be so opposed to building a roundabout, but they’ll build one out in the middle of nowhere in Northwest OKC..

So much would have to be torn up to put a roundabout in, massive disruption, and also they'd have to admit that they were wrong in taking it out and replacing it with the cluster**** it is now. That's why there would be opposition.

So much would have to be torn up to put a roundabout in, massive disruption, and also they'd have to admit that they were wrong in taking it out and replacing it with the cluster**** it is now. That's why there would be opposition.
Yeah, I can see that. Then again I think the city should basically tear up the entire new boulevard that ODOT built and rebuild it to be more pedestrian friendly.

Yeah, I can see that. Then again I think the city should basically tear up the entire new boulevard that ODOT built and rebuild it to be more pedestrian friendly.

:yeahthat::iagree:

Never gonna happen, be nice if it did, though. You do know it used to be one (can't remember if it was a full one or not), right?

It was a full one. . . great sporting goods store on the NE side . . . . Andy Anderson's (?)

So much would have to be torn up to put a roundabout in, massive disruption, and also they'd have to admit that they were wrong in taking it out and replacing it with the cluster**** it is now. That's why there would be opposition.

there should really be a concerted effort, at all governmental levels, to build roundabouts wherever it is feasible. the proliferation of traffic lights, curb cuts, etc. has become absurd and absolutely needs to be reined in by thoughtful policy changes.

From 1954:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54171164837_ffa3a5978c_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2qwVo1D)

I can see problems with the way the roads approach the circle. Not much room in the circle to cross over. The entry/exit roads should always be together.

Here is an image from 1969.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/classencircle112924a.jpg

^^^^ see that would be pretty cool if they did something like that again and modernized it and added a big water feature or a statue in the middle of it. Was the Bell aisle freeway built at that time? It looks like Classen Boulevard ended.

Yes, the reconfiguration happened in conjunction with the freeway build.

Whenever ODOT reconstruct this section of I 44 that would be a good time for the city to rethink this intersection. I don’t think that’s happening until the 2030s though.

Redesign really might change things, especially if they go for something visible like a water feature or statue. It's true, though, probably not till the 2030s.

Redesign really might change things, especially if they go for something visible like a water feature or statue. It's true, though, probably not till the 2030s.

It won't even happen then, status quo will stay in place, there's no way the city, ODOT, Feds or whoever owns all the roads there will do anything like put a traffic circle in, no matter what other things are done to the highway. I'd bet $100 that it won't happen, they have enough work to do just keeping things from entropy taking over (and they're not doing a good job at that, and haven't for decades), they're not going to do anything besides the bare minimum.

Here is an image from 1969.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/classencircle112924a.jpg

I drove through the Classen Circle many times when I was younger. I really hated to see it go. Also from there going south on Classen if you made the first light you came to and drove exactly 35 mph which I believe was the speed limit you would make every light except one until you got to Main Street. I don't remember which light it was but I don't think it was a major road like 36th, 23rd or 10th. We used to do it just for kicks when we were teenagers in the early 70s. The Classen Circle was where we knew our many road trips to Chicago really started and on the way back when were almost home. That was before I44 through OKC was built too.

There is a TON more traffic going through here than in 1969. The US doesn't do high traffic circles well at all. I honestly do not think that a circle would be a good fit here given the volume now. There are very few examples of circles in the US that can handle the amount of cars that go through here during rush hour. The NWXway and the Classen traffic are both pretty heavy and they go in all different directions. A lot of traffic takes the ramps at the mall, but there's still quite a bit that, for whatever reason, prefers to go to this intersection....and of course the Classen traffic all goes through here regardless of the direction.

What really gets you is the double turn lanes in multiple directions because of the volumes. So for different reasons than given above, I dont think that this will be coming back.



As for the other homes being bought up, Steve is right. If Zerby is involved, you're looking at big-box. He's the biggest investor in the development of Westgate on I-40 and everything on both sides of the highway. When he and his partners bought the Lucent plant, the sold off land for the outlet mall and Francis Tuttle to help finance their projects. The Lucent Plant (7725 Connect aka OKCWorks) has managed to actually spring back pretty well post COVID, but i bet once Paycom's new building is done, they will have a massive office hole to fill again. I say all that to say, the man has quite a bit of capital to throw around, but he's a very much long-term developer. He's not big on the short-term flip situations...or at least hasn't mostly been that way. You'll also see his F5 construction firm name on the projects, so he's got a bit of a vertical integration going with the development too.

He's an interesting cat to work with. Can be somewhat volatile at times.

It won't even happen then, status quo will stay in place, there's no way the city, ODOT, Feds or whoever owns all the roads there will do anything like put a traffic circle in, no matter what other things are done to the highway. I'd bet $100 that it won't happen, they have enough work to do just keeping things from entropy taking over (and they're not doing a good job at that, and haven't for decades), they're not going to do anything besides the bare minimum.

Wasn't Classen Circle changed because of the high rate of accidents occurring there? OKC drivers didn't seem to handle it well. Still, on the few we have, many don't know how to enter and exit right and cause issues for others. It happens almost every time i go through the one at Midtown. But then again I see drivers doing U-turns in the middle of Broadway, cutting in front of cars to get across two lanes at a time, and texting while driving all the time too.

Ive driven alot in Europe and don't seem to see the same sort of traffic circle issues as i do in OK. We seem less practiced and more aggressive in driving them.

Wasn't Classen Circle changed because of the high rate of accidents occurring there? OKC drivers didn't seem to handle it well. Still, on the few we have, many don't know how to enter and exit right and cause issues for others. It happens almost every time i go through the one at Midtown. But then again I see drivers doing U-turns in the middle of Broadway, cutting in front of cars to get across two lanes at a time, and texting while driving all the time too.

Ive driven alot in Europe and don't seem to see the same sort of traffic circle issues as i do in OK. We seem less practiced and more aggressive in driving them.

And drive much bigger vehicles ....