4 towers sounds a bit aggressive, 2 is more likely. But if 4 towers are the plan, it will probably be done in phases, and over a 10 year period.

When they build this type of "multi-tower-joined-by-a-base" project, isn't it always more economical to build all at once since rented equipment costs (cranes/workers/etc) can be averaged over more income generating assets?

When they build this type of "multi-tower-joined-by-a-base" project, isn't it always more economical to build all at once since rented equipment costs (cranes/workers/etc) can be averaged over more income generating assets?

Exactly. Also, has anyone indicated this will be done in phases over a decade? I don't think I've read that anywhere.

Keep in mind that it will likely be three years from now -- at the earliest -- before any office space in this complex is open for business.

We are already completely out of Class A office space everywhere in OKC, not just downtown.

If you were Clayco and were looking to invest in new development, what would be a better bet than arguably the best property in one of the hottest economies in the U.S. that also happens to have near zero office vacancy?

Remember that the acquisition costs for Stage Center (and likely the land to the south) were pretty reasonable and therefore they should be able to build something here that wouldn't be a lot more expensive than any large new office building. So, you don't have a lot of risk of tons of cheaper office space coming onto the market and certainly not at a location as great as this.


Everyone knows that we need a lot more office space but it may take an outsider with deep pockets like Clayco to actually do it.

Another thought: Perhaps Clayco has talked to Continental about being part of this development.

CLR is already out of space and set to start moving people into Cotter Ranch Tower. What the heck are they going to do three years from now? You can bet they have some sort of long-term plan.

I'm really hoping it's a cluster of four brick towers. Especially if they got some flavor like in the above picture. That would be unique for the city and could really pop

I'm really hoping it's a cluster of four brick towers. Especially if they got some flavor like in the above picture. That would be unique for the city and could really pop

I was thinking the exact opposite. "Please don't let it be 4 brick towers..."

I don't know. I was near Downtown earlier and looking at the skyline trying to picture 4 brick high rises. I'm not sure about it now. It would all depend on the size and design of them. But to have something on the to add balance in the skyline from the southwest is going to be nice.

How exciting!

Any sense of jealousy wafting from across the Red River or KCMO?

Any sense of jealousy wafting from across the Red River or KCMO?

Wafting! Wafting!

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3119776/fat-bastard-wafting-o.gif

Aw yeah, that's everything I've been hoping for since the news that Clayco was involved came out.

I don't know. I was near Downtown earlier and looking at the skyline trying to picture 4 brick high rises. I'm not sure about it now. It would all depend on the size and design of them. But to have something on the to add balance in the skyline from the southwest is going to be nice.

Something like the Hilton Anatole tower in Dallas wouldn't be too bad. I would still rather have concrete, glass, metal tower over brick.

Where did anyone say it will be brick?

I'd rather have brick. All glass towers may be the current fashion, but nothing that gets built on that block is going to compare to Devon. Better for it to have its own style.

Any sense of jealousy wafting from across the Red River or KCMO?

You are joking, right? what have they got to be jealous of? the 8-10 towers in DT all built in 1980's or before excerpt 1? I will believe 3-4 new skyscrapers in OKC when they are built, not before. Don't believe the hype, this thing will fizzle.

You are joking, right? what have they got to be jealous of? the 8-10 towers in DT all built in 1980's or before excerpt 1? I will believe 3-4 new skyscrapers in OKC when they are built, not before. Don't believe the hype, this thing will fizzle.

You are my sunshine, my only sunshine...

Yes. Wondering if this is The Big One that was supposed to impart all that jealousy.

You are my sunshine, my only sunshine...

just the facts, if that hurts so be it. tell me what does DT OKC have to make any Texas city or KC jealous? smaller cities than OKC have more impressive DTs.

Yes. Wondering if this is The Big One that was supposed to impart all that jealousy.

Uh, no.

just the facts, if that hurts so be it. tell me what does DT OKC have to make any Texas city or KC jealous? smaller cities than OKC have more impressive DTs.

LOL, nobody ever said this development would make any city, anywhere, jealous. That's just a very silly statement designed to provoke a response. If it turns out as Steve mentioned, it is still much better than we expected and will be big improvement on that area. We aren't Dubai where everything has to be over-the-top.

The sketch looks like a simple massing exercise. The color's just to make them pop. Could be some brick, but I'm guessing the color isn't meant to necessarily represent red brick.

just the facts, if that hurts so be it. tell me what does DT OKC have to make any Texas city or KC jealous? smaller cities than OKC have more impressive DTs.

"just the facts", except with no actual facts.

You are joking, right? what have they got to be jealous of? the 8-10 towers in DT all built in 1980's or before excerpt 1? I will believe 3-4 new skyscrapers in OKC when they are built, not before. Don't believe the hype, this thing will fizzle.

I strongly don't believe this is what Steve is referring to as the project that would make KC/Dallas jealous. Why would it? Dallas has skyscrapers popping up all the time, in their suburbs, that are taller than this would be. Steve has said the big project will be in Lower Bricktown and will be entertainment oriented. Secondly, skyscrapers depend on the economy. OKC's economy for a better part of the last quarter of the 20th century was terrible. Combine that with failed urban renewal and mass flight to the suburbs and that's why there was no growth. That is why despite all the improvement in OKC, it is still behind its smaller peers in some ways. Things are changing though. The economy here is one of the best in the nation. Brain drain is turning to brain gain. OKC is getting positive media attention, something that a decade ago was inconceivable. It has an NBA team that all the naysayers said the city couldn't support. If there was ever a time for a skyscraper boom in OKC this would be it.

Yes. Wondering if this is The Big One that was supposed to impart all that jealousy.

Multiple sources have said repeatedly it will be in Lower Bricktown and will be entertainment oriented if it happens. I am sure given all the hype, whenever the project is announced Steve and Pete will let us know that is the project.

I strongly don't believe this is what Steve is referring to as the project that would make KC/Dallas jealous.

Yes, this is not it. Steve has been hinting at something different; likely in Bricktown (even more likely, Lower Bricktown) and be at least somewhat entertainment based.


As I've stated before, the good news is that when the RFP's are due on Oct. 6th, the full packages will be released to the public.

OK.guys. I was kidding.

LOL internets

just the facts, if that hurts so be it. tell me what does DT OKC have to make any Texas city or KC jealous? smaller cities than OKC have more impressive DTs.

Never said this was that project (Steve even said it was Lower Bricktown, so yeah...). I was commenting on your constant negativity. If you don't think any of this will happen or only will believe it when it does, perhaps it is time to take a break from these posts. Save yourself from being constantly disappointed.

I'm going to put this to rest. As I mentioned at Confluence, I regret ever saying the Dallas & Kansas City quip. This will be a big deal if it happens (I've never said it would be in Lower Bricktown). But there are clearly voices in the community who will have expectations impossible to satisfy and their definition of what might make Kansas City and Dallas jealous will be different (I suspect it would involve a Galleria style mall, five skyscrapers and a Hard Rock Cafe). I've promised I will let folks know when this happens that it was what I was referring to, and if it falls apart, I'll spill the beans then as well. I'm out.

I'm going to put this to rest. As I mentioned at Confluence, I regret ever saying the Dallas & Kansas City quip. This will be a big deal if it happens (I've never said it would be in Lower Bricktown). But there are clearly voices in the community who will have expectations impossible to satisfy and their definition of what might make Kansas City and Dallas jealous will be different (I suspect it would involve a Galleria style mall, five skyscrapers and a Hard Rock Cafe). I've promised I will let folks know when this happens that it was what I was referring to, and if it falls apart, I'll spill the beans then as well. I'm out.

Valuable clarification.

Just on my part as well, let me make it clear that my jokes about the mystery tower phenomenon aren't blaming Pete or Steve but rather the faction amongst us that thrives on speculation and rumors (sometimes including myself)

Thanks for the clarification, Steve.

I'm going to put this to rest. As I mentioned at Confluence, I regret ever saying the Dallas & Kansas City quip. This will be a big deal if it happens (I've never said it would be in Lower Bricktown). But there are clearly voices in the community who will have expectations impossible to satisfy and their definition of what might make Kansas City and Dallas jealous will be different (I suspect it would involve a Galleria style mall, five skyscrapers and a Hard Rock Cafe). I've promised I will let folks know when this happens that it was what I was referring to, and if it falls apart, I'll spill the beans then as well. I'm out.

Is your usage of "this" referring to this Stage Center Tower project or is it whatever else is yet to be announced that you originally hinted would make KC/Dallas jealous?

And yes, when you say something may make Dallas, a world class cosmopolitan city, jealous, that sets the bar pretty high. It would be easier to satisfy expectations if you would have said KC and Louisville or Nashville for instance rather than Dallas.

Please let it go. Steve said he regretted saying Dallas and Kansas City...and he said he will let us know one way or the other.

Is your usage of "this" referring to this Stage Center Tower project or is it whatever else is yet to be announced that you originally hinted would make KC/Dallas jealous?

And yes, when you say something may make Dallas, a world class cosmopolitan city, jealous, that sets the bar pretty high. It would be easier to satisfy expectations if you would have said KC and Louisville or Nashville for instance rather than Dallas.

Exactly!

Oh lordy guys, let it go!

Steve, just wanted to clarify that I was mistaken on the Lower Bricktown claim. I was confusing several comments and attributed them to you.

Who cares if ANYONE is jealous. That is not bar. The bar is if it is something appropriate, meaningful, financially possible, and pushes us forwarded to help grow the city in a dynamic way. It needs to be competitive with facilities available to others in cities and in industries with whom we are competing for citizens and workers.

OKC is starting from too far back to dream of being a world leading city. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to have facilities that would be considered good in world leading cities. And, size of facility isn't the criteria...we can't win that battle. We just need to recognize and support what quality design and construction is and build a sustainable city suitable for our citizens.

:ot:
LOL.. who cares who is a world class city of who is or isn't Jelous.. we aren't NYC or even Dallas.. but what we are is growing and being a much better city than we once were.. now about that OG&E tower.

Guess we'll have some clarity after Oct 6 when the RFP's are released. Less than a month now.

The source of the graphic Steve posted showing the taller buildings was not Clayco or any other potential developer.

It was merely a heavily cropped image of a broad, long-term concept by Populous, who was commissioned by the City to come up with newly released Convention Center District Concept Plan, with the stated goals:

Identify the most viable sites for private development relating to and integrating to the convention center and hotel facilities
Define the recommended character of the district to facilitate its function as “center for conventions”, weaving the project into the existing urban framework
Create a unified pedestrian experience, connecting each primary hug of activity and linking the many assets of downtown Oklahoma City



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop2.jpg

Scenario 01 looks more realistic from what we actually know. While it won't be near as impressive of a skyline change, if it played out like that it could be amazing from a ground perspective. I really like what they did with the Cox site. Plus, there is still the Main/Hudson tower that should help balance the skyline. I am going to remain optimistic until we see what Clayco is really proposing.

These graphics show the immense missed opportunity to connect the MBG and the Central Park.

I understand these are just graphics, but I really hope we see something taller on the CCC site, at least one taller tower like the second graphic. Of course, we won't even begin anything on the new convention center until 2016 and I would put it at 2020 or so before it is finished. They aren't going to tear down the CCC before then. So, a solid five year to speculate...

I moved a bunch of posts to here:

http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/38970-world-class-cities.html

Here are some more perspectives from that Populous study:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop5.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop6.jpg

From Steve:

About That Site Plan.... | News OK (http://newsok.com/about-that-site-plan..../article/5340066)

From Steve:

About That Site Plan.... | News OK (http://newsok.com/about-that-site-plan..../article/5340066)

I am guessing that was a direct response to what was posted here.

Let's hope scenario two happens. That would be a game changer for the entire city.

Scenario 2 would double the size of downtown

Yes and scenario two isn't all that unrealistic. That is very exciting!

I was wrong in posting what I did. My post update will be online shortly. A much needed vacation starts Thursday.

I was wrong in posting what I did. My post update will be online shortly. A much needed vacation starts Thursday.Is that bad news for the development in terms of how tall and big it will be?

It seems to me that the apology makes it more likely that the site plan generally resembles ClayCo's actual plans. ClayCo was not "ready" for this information to be released, but it was.

Notice in all the conceptual plans that the mid-block E/W alleys are to stay open.

Not just on the conceptual Cox Center site but for the OG&E / Clayco properties as well.

Essentially, there would be four completely separate structures at street level, although likely connected by parking below grade.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop7.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop8.jpg

I think the stair step configuration confirms what I suggested in this discussion long ago; there is indeed some concern about leaving MBG in shadow. The tapering to the south would allow for more hours of sunshine in fall and winter.

Let's hope scenario two happens. That would be a game changer for the entire city.

This reminds me of the anticipation and excitement which centered around the announcement of the Devon Tower. Now we could have as many as four to six towers built within the next five to six years.

Just feels as though there will be news about some big project announcement any moment.

WATCHOUT, OKLAHOMA CITY!


https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQcMZswxw41xEIxLqZ3bATMYVK7tvf1p i4kGSckNWc0TK0LULqzBg
Could this be our future...

http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Notice in all the conceptual plans that the mid-block E/W alleys are to stay open.

Not just on the conceptual Cox Center site but for the OG&E / Clayco properties as well.

Essentially, there would be four completely separate structures at street level, although likely connected by parking below grade.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop7.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pop8.jpg


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41626R2C10L.jpg

I think the stair step configuration confirms what I suggested in this discussion long ago; there is indeed some concern about leaving MBG in shadow. The tapering to the south would allow for more hours of sunshine in fall and winter.

The stair stepping likely has nothing to do with MBG, it is about aesthetics of the skyline.

If they were worried about more light getting to the gardens having had the wedding cake tiers on each side the building move in on the north and south edges of the towers, not the west and east sides (also notice the ones that cast the most shadow over the gardens have the least step from the streetwall edge), would pass more though (especially if there is any reflectivity on the building surfaces). At that height another five to ten floors is not going to make a huge difference on the percent of the day MBG is in shadows. Plus they show the first building's shadow going nearly all the way to the street, are they only worried just about the street trees getting light? (granted given our latitude the angle looks too wide, even on the winter solstice the shadow should not be that far north unless they were sloppy with the length cast as well)

Pete, can I post a few if these images on my Facebook to share with friends and family? I'll give credit with a link

The stair stepping likely has nothing to do with MBG, it is about aesthetics of the skyline.

If they were worried about more light getting to the gardens having had the wedding cake tiers on each side the building move in on the north and south edges of the towers, not the west and east sides (also notice the ones that cast the most shadow over the gardens have the least step from the streetwall edge), would pass more though (especially if there is any reflectivity on the building surfaces). At that height another five to ten floors is not going to make a huge difference on the percent of the day MBG is in shadows. Plus they show the first building's shadow going nearly all the way to the street, are they only worried just about the street trees getting light? (granted given our latitude the angle looks too wide, even on the winter solstice the shadow should not be that far north unless they were sloppy with the length cast as well)

Sorry, I just don't agree with that assessment. The tallest buildings with the least setback are the furthest north; during the summer months they will actually provide a reprieve from the furnace blast. As the days grow shorter and the sun moves further south on the horizon, it will pass over subsequently lower and lower buildings with progressively more setback, until the buildings are so low that they will barely block at all, leaving tons of sunlight. The lowest building is on the eastern side, which will provide more light on winter mornings. The system/intent seems fairly obvious.

Rest up man. I'm sure others tell you this but you work too hard.

Says the guy with a fresh cut on his neck. You rest up too!