It would have been easy to save as part of Project 180, but you never even heard a peep about that possibility.

We're redoing just about everything else downtown these days: Parks, streets, sidewalks other public spaces. I know this property is not owned by the City but that could have been easily arranged. And almost every older structure has been renovated or there are plans to do so.

Simply no one in a position of power, influence or wealth seemed to care about it whatsoever.

Does anybody think the Overholser Mansion cash flows? The Oklahoma Governors Mansion? The Round Barn in Arcadia? Marland Mansion in Ponca City? Frank Phillips' home in Bartlesville? Price Tower? Robie House in Chicago? Taliesin West? They are preserved because they are important places for one reason or another. In some cases thanks to the occupant, in some cases thanks to the designer or a movement it embodies.

By the way, as long as I mentioned his buildings, Frank Lloyd Wright designs were/are notorious for leaks, engineering failures and poor function. Wright was famous for forcing design ideas on clients. He made you use his furniture - designed for your house - which was uncomfortable as hell, and made you leave it where he placed it. If you were a patron, you accepted that - even embraced it - as a consequence of owning a building designed by Wright. You valued that you were a part of moving the needle in the world of architecture.

I'm sure that sounds really dumb to some people.

Stage Center was important enough that we should have been recognized locally as such a generation ago and its ARCHITECTURAL HERITAGE brought to bear rather than the continuous head-beating-against-the-wall of trying to force theater tickets and little nonprofit organizations to pay for it. We missed as a community and failed on this one. Life goes on.

It would have been easy to save as part of Project 180, but you never even heard a peep about that possibility.

We're redoing just about everything else downtown these days: Parks, streets, sidewalks other public spaces. I know this property is not owned by the City but that could have been easily arranged. And almost every older structure has been renovated or there are plans to do so.

Simply no one in a position of power, influence or wealth seemed to care about it whatsoever.

Exactly. And in some cases just the opposite; they hated it. Nobody who had the dollars to save it wanted to pick a fight with the ones who wanted it gone.

I still don't agree that it required tax dollars. Only earlier intervention. This problem should have been solved in the seventies or eighties. Any time an architectural fight is done in the eleventh hour it generally is a losing battle and ALWAYS costs the preservationists political capital.

And in all those years it sat vacant how many times did some one propose another use for it? That's the difference, SC was vacant for long time and RW proposed another use for it.

Stage Center was only vacant for a few years.


If you do magic stuff to SC to make it not fall down, but still can't find anyone to redevelop it and use it then it just becomes an expensive piece of public art. And I use the term "art" loosely.

We don't know that someone wouldn't redevelop it. There was a very limited window to find someone to renovate it. The Rock Island Plow building sat empty for decades. And the design of Stage Center Tower shows that it's basically an excuse to build a giant parking garage.

We don't know that someone wouldn't redevelop it. There was a very limited window to find someone to renovate it. The Rock Island Plow building sat empty for decades. And the design of Stage Center Tower shows that it's basically an excuse to build a giant parking garage.

The difference between the Marion, the Plow and SC is that someone wanted to redevelop the SC site. As Urbanized said earlier, it was location, location, location. If SC was in a less desirable location its unworkable design may have sat empty for decades. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your POV, it sits on prime real-estate so some one has found a better use for it.

OMG the idea that SC was not physically salvageable just drives my crazy. It is the most intellectually dishonest part of this whole discussion. Anyone who falls back on that is either being intentionally dishonest or knows nothing - NOTHING - about the building arts. It is essentially a concrete bunker. The flood basically ruined carpet, drywall, electrical and HVAC systems, all if which could have been easily (though not inexpensively) replaced.

It could stand abandoned for decades if not a century in its present condition and still be fully renovated. There are dozens of local examples of much more damaged and fragile buildings other than the Marion - many currently being renovated - that stood abandoned and open to the elements for many decades longer than the few years SC has been empty. It's just a ridiculous argument and ignores facts.

The reasons SC is coming down are simple:


Location
Location
Location
It's probably impossible to pay for upkeep with proceeds generated from its intended use
It's difficult to reconfigure for a different use
Lots of people don't like it, many of them important people
It never developed the following it deserved, in part thanks to reasons above
Nobody with deep enough pockets or a viable plan (that appealed to someone with deep pockets) came forward during its lifetime (in part thanks to reasons above)
Location

It's a sad story, but if there is a plus side it's that it's about to be behind us.

You forgot:J - it was never any good at its intended purpose, being a theater. Saw many a production there. It sucked. "Tray" system? Terrible. Non air conditioned herding chutes? Awful.

OMG the idea that SC was not physically salvageable just drives my crazy. It is the most intellectually dishonest part of this whole discussion. Anyone who falls back on that is either being intentionally dishonest or knows nothing - NOTHING - about the building arts. It is essentially a concrete bunker. The flood basically ruined carpet, drywall, electrical and HVAC systems, all if which could have been easily (though not inexpensively) replaced.

It could stand abandoned for decades if not a century in its present condition and still be fully renovated. There are dozens of local examples of much more damaged and fragile buildings other than the Marion - many currently being renovated - that stood abandoned and open to the elements for many decades longer than the few years SC has been empty. It's just a ridiculous argument and ignores facts.

The reasons SC is coming down are simple:


Location
Location
Location
It's probably impossible to pay for upkeep with proceeds generated from its intended use
It's difficult to reconfigure for a different use
Lots of people don't like it, many of them important people
It never developed the following it deserved, in part thanks to reasons above
Nobody with deep enough pockets or a viable plan (that appealed to someone with deep pockets) came forward during its lifetime (in part thanks to reasons above)
Location

It's a sad story, but if there is a plus side it's that it's about to be behind us.

Of all these on the list, number 6 annoys me the most. Who are these people and why do they hold such sway? Based on your other post, it sounds like some of these bigwigs are still trying to settle a score from decades ago when this building was "forced" on them. Absolutely petty and ridiculous. I think I know who you are talking about, by the way.

The difference between the Marion, the Plow and SC is that someone wanted to redevelop the SC site. As Urbanized said earlier, it was location, location, location. If SC was in a less desirable location its unworkable design may have sat empty for decades. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your POV, it sits on prime real-estate so some one has found a better use for it.

So far, it's arguable whether this is a "better use." So far, we have bupkus, but we have all sorts of assurances that Rainey Williams is a really swell guy and we have his assurances that he's going to put something "world class" there.

Then, we have the incredible shrinking tower that seems to be a modest office building with a massive parking garage.

Better use? We're tearing down an iconic piece of architecture with a bland office complex and a spec site.

So far, it's arguable whether this is a "better use." So far, we have bupkus, but we have all sorts of assurances that Rainey Williams is a really swell guy and we have his assurances that he's going to put something "world class" there.

Then, we have the incredible shrinking tower that seems to be a modest office building with a massive parking garage.

Better use? We're tearing down an iconic piece of architecture with a bland office complex and a spec site.

At best. The lack of information on this project is astonishing, and coupled with Williams complete lack of resume, it is pretty shocking that he was given permission to destroy this.

+1

Again, the time to save it was a generation ago. The last real chance to save it was during P180/Devon TIF. In retrospect it never resonated with a champion who had enough horsepower, and we never brought the right mechanism to bear.


I still don't agree that it required tax dollars. Only earlier intervention. This problem should have been solved in the seventies or eighties. Any time an architectural fight is done in the eleventh hour it generally is a losing battle and ALWAYS costs the preservationists political capital.

So, lets finally learn this lesson. Now what? What can we do NOW to prevent this to other buildings? Do we have any buildings in OKC now that we can save (even though they aren't presently in danger)?
Please (not necessarily directed at Urbanized) don't take this down the "ripping-our-garments-and-wailing-and-gnashing-of-teeth-our-city-sucks-because-we-already-I.M.Pei'd-everything" road. I know about the Baum and the Biltmore, etc. I just wanted to know what we have now that might require some future salvation.

Dubya - look to Core 2 Shore. There is still a lot left down there that we will end up replacing with suburban styled office parks given the emerging comps. The boulevard scenario is scary. SW 3rd could be the next Plaza District.


Does anybody think the Overholser Mansion cash flows? The Oklahoma Governors Mansion? The Round Barn in Arcadia? Marland Mansion in Ponca City? Frank Phillips' home in Bartlesville? Price Tower? Robie House in Chicago? Taliesin West? They are preserved because they are important places for one reason or another. In some cases thanks to the occupant, in some cases thanks to the designer or a movement it embodies.

By the way, as long as I mentioned his buildings, Frank Lloyd Wright designs were/are notorious for leaks, engineering failures and poor function. Wright was famous for forcing design ideas on clients. He made you use his furniture - designed for your house - which was uncomfortable as hell, and made you leave it where he placed it. If you were a patron, you accepted that - even embraced it - as a consequence of owning a building designed by Wright. You valued that you were a part of moving the needle in the world of architecture.

I'm sure that sounds really dumb to some people.

Stage Center was important enough that we should have been recognized locally as such a generation ago and its ARCHITECTURAL HERITAGE brought to bear rather than the continuous head-beating-against-the-wall of trying to force theater tickets and little nonprofit organizations to pay for it. We missed as a community and failed on this one. Life goes on.

There is embodied life and energy, too.

As a taxpayer, I am happy to support things that improve Oklahoma City. We pay for the maintenance of every building the city owns already. I would have been thrilled to see any movement from the city to, for example, create a Children's Museum in the Stage Center. It would have cost a negligible amount of money compared to what we will pay to build and maintain a new convention center, for example.

+1

I just wanted to know what we have now that might require some future salvation.

The Cox center? Just kidding.

The one area that kind of concerns me as far as possible frivolous demolition is the Bricktown shakeup.

We also may lose the Walcourt soon.

We should be in open battle with the state GOP over the vacant property registry.

We also may lose the Walcourt soon.

We should be in open battle with the state GOP over the vacant property registry.

Too bad all the major donors are supporting the Rs this cycle. Hopefully Dorman will be able to mount a serious campaign.

Too bad all the major donors are supporting the Rs this cycle. Hopefully Dorman will be able to mount a serious campaign.

Lol

Rainey Williams has applied to close some of the right away around this property. I believe this would allow them to build right up to the sidewalk on the west, north and east sides.

Looks like they are getting closer to starting construction; I bet we see the full plans when Clayco's plans are revealed for the property to the south in early October.


liIntended Use: Mixed Use Commercial office building.
This case is scheduled to be heard at the Planning Commission meeting on September 11, 2014. This closure will allow the applicant to develop the property over which the rights of way run. The existing sidewalk and streetscape improvements will remain.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sc081314.jpg

Could we rename this thread? This tower has nothing to do with the Stage Center, except as the author of its demise.

Block 61 at Stage Center might be a cool name. But then there's Block 42, which makes me wonder if that's why it's named that, due to it's original designation...

Block 61 at Stage Center might be a cool name. But then there's Block 42, which makes me wonder if that's why it's named that, due to it's original designation...

Block 42 is named that because there are/were 42 units when it was built.

How about finding the original plate map and naming it something to do with that?


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How about OGE Building. :)

How about Monopolizing Mongerers Building?

I'll change it back to OG&E Tower, which was the original name of this thread.

Block 42 is named that because there are/were 42 units when it was built.

I could be wrong, but I believe the Block 42 name was for the legal block name in City Records, not the # of units.

"Downtown Oklahoma City's first LEED certified project, Block 42, is a residential community consisting of 22 townhomes and 20 condos, or flats." (22+20=42). Not sure about the location, but I guess I always assumed it was because there were 42 units on one block. I could be wrong, it's happened before.

maybe it's both

maybe it's both

:eek: Mind Blown!

Being the curious soul I am, I asked Grant Humphreys during the 2007 Architecture Tour. There are, indeed, 42 units; but the legal description of the block, as it appeared on an early plat of Oklahoma City, was in fact block 42.

Being the curious soul I am, I asked Grant Humphreys during the 2007 Architecture Tour. There are, indeed, 42 units; but the legal description of the block, as it appeared on an early plat of Oklahoma City, was in fact block 42.

http://replygif.net/thumbnail/537.gif

http://replygif.net/thumbnail/537.gif

Yes way, Ted!

Nice! And good to know. Thanks!

Just to keep it off topic, I think it's also interesting that the address of the AT&T building is '405'. Not sure if that's total coincidence or is it had something to do with our OKC's area code was assigned.

They must be using Broadway for their address then instead of McGee because I'm west of them and my address is 333...

Looks like it's gonna be a hot weekend. When will we get the next cool down?

Anybody else getting an OGE smart hours advertisement when they come to this thread?

Tempurpedic for me.

Looks like it's gonna be a hot weekend. When will we get the next cool down?
What does this have to do with a yet-to-be-built tower?

What does this have to do with a yet-to-be-built tower?

I'm pretty certain that is his point of the post. What does 85% of this thread have to do with the yet-to-be-built tower. Stage Center is all but removed and we still have people arguing over it...It would be awesome if Pete just deleted this thread and made a fresh OG&E tower thread maybe after the real renderings are released.

I've heard that OG&E has been looking for a co-tenant which would explain the possibility of more height.

They've been talking to various companies about leasing space in the project, which would require more floors to be built.

Don't think they've finalized anything yet.

I've heard that OG&E has been looking for a co-tenant which would explain the possibility of more height.

They've been talking to various companies about leasing space in the project, which would require more floors to be built.

Don't think they've finalized anything yet.

That would be great! Based case scenario is if the south half of that is going to the RFP gets grabbed up by a different bidder. Then they would maybe build three towers on the Stage Center site. One hotel, one office building, and one residential. The office tower would have to have a smaller foot print so it would be even taller.

Agreed. Hopefully we might end up with a tower higher than 30 stories.

I don't know why they just don't go with a full mixed-used tower. Most new towers built in other cities are all mixed use, with a hotel or residences component.

I don't know why they just don't go with a full mixed-used tower. Most new towers built in other cities are all mixed use, with a hotel or residences component.

I doubt, as a public utility company, they can justify the cost of going on spec. It sounds they are willing to expand it if it gets pre-leased, so we'll see if the demand is there.

It seems Clayco is playing a bigger and bigger role in all of this.

Wouldn't be surprised if they don't end up as the owner, with OG&E and possibly others leasing from them.

It seems Clayco is playing a bigger and bigger role in all of this.

Wouldn't be surprised if they don't end up as the owner, with OG&E and possibly others leasing from them.

I would hope that result would open a lot of possibilities for the building. I imagine OG&E would have to stick to just what they provide whereas Clayco will have a lot more flexibility.

Anybody else getting an OGE smart hours advertisement when they come to this thread?

Pay Per Click (PPC) ads have to do with your search history and sites/pages you view, so they're usually dynamic, meaning they change for everyone depending on their habits.

Per Steve, whatever 'ConferenceCon' is, a layout of the Stage center site will be presented tomorrow ?

Or did I just dream this up ?

Steve had said he would present a graphic of the OG&E Tower site at tomorrow's ConfluenceCon which is sponsored by OPUBCO.

Confluence: Oklahoma's Digital Creativity Conference (http://confluenceconference.org/)

He mentioned on his twitter account on the 28th that he would" Answer 6 questions that he is frequently asked but avoids answering" as well. We know one will be something to do with his graphic on the OGE tower and I would venture that one or two deal with the project to make Dallas/KC jealous but I am curious as to what the other few questions could be to.

Probably answering those 6 questions in a way he already has done so 6 times.

People at the Confluence Conference have said that no hard info has come out BUT Steve posted this and it looks like a preliminary plan by Clayco for both the OG&E and south blocks.

I count 36, 31, 26 and 21 stories in the four towers!!

Could this be the new site plan for Stage Center block? | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/article/5339459)

You beat me to it Pete! It kind of reminds me of their Plaza Clayton where the towers are connected by a large base! Just with more than 2 towers and brick as well instead of something mostly glass like Devon 9105

Hmm... 4 towers? Bring em on!

Very nice!

The skyline is about to change BIG!

4 towers sounds a bit aggressive, 2 is more likely. But if 4 towers are the plan, it will probably be done in phases, and over a 10 year period.

As far as the size of the towers, that'd be about a 30% increase in our overall skyline scope.

Put the BOK tower in the middle of that graphic.

I like it. This looks like its shaping up to be a lot bigger deal than the 14-story midrise that was originally expected after announcement. If the tallest is 30 stories that should put it in line with the Chase tower. Not only that, but the skyline currently looks the worst and most out of balance from the southwest, and this will completely fix that.