Twice on Channel 5 news today, in reporting about the demolition of Stage Center, they have stated "a more than 20-story tower will take its place"....I haven't been on the thread in awhile, but I'm sure I would've seen if the height had gone up? Anybody know?

Historical landmark ?Stage Center? nears demolition | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2014/06/17/historical-landmark-stage-center-nears-demolition/)

Twice on Channel 5 news today, in reporting about the demolition of Stage Center, they have stated "a more than 20-story tower will take its place"....I haven't been on the thread in awhile, but I'm sure I would've seen if the height had gone up? Anybody know?

No, no new info has been released about the proposed tower since the original renderings were made public.

I'm sure they were just a bit confused.

I have to saw now that this is close to happening I'm getting a bit of a sick feeling about it.

I've never been passionate about the structure but I respect that many people are and how hard this will be.

I also know that for better or worse it's unique and we don't have much of that in OKC.

Maybe they could treat the remains of that eyesore like the Berlin Wall and sell pieces of it to people for homemade artwork and museums for public display of relics?

It would, perhaps, be akin to Steampunk or something like it? Except to the next level?

I wouldn't be surprised if Wayne Coyne might have or have not an interest here.
His Art Gallery over by the Iguana Lounge seems to need a . . . whatever.

btw: I am frankly surprised that OG&E couldn't do better than the rendering of the proposed addition to the OKC skyline.
(not that it really matters.)

I sure hate to see it go and I think many others, who don't think they will, might also once its been gone for a while. I know betts has a hard time even reading this thread. I just can't believe this unique structure will be demolished. It will be seen in pictures decades from now and people will be asking why we ever wanted to tear it down. Maybe not, but I wouldn't bet against it.

I know I've posted many things about the Stage Center, but I don't recall ever reading or posting this:
http://offcite.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2010/03/AMummersTale_Koerble_Cite25.pdf
(worth the read - for future reference, obviously)

I sure hate to see it go and I think many others, who don't think they will, might also once its been gone for a while. I know betts has a hard time even reading this thread. I just can't believe this unique structure will be demolished. It will be seen in pictures decades from now and people will be asking why we ever wanted to tear it down. Maybe not, but I wouldn't bet against it.

I know I've posted many things about the Stage Center, but I don't recall ever reading or posting this:
http://offcite.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2010/03/AMummersTale_Koerble_Cite25.pdf
(worth the read - for future reference, obviously)

Wow. Fascinating read. I've never seen that before. Interesting to see some detail in the role John Kirkpatrick played in the downfall of the theater company. Also interesting to read about the renovation helmed by Rand. A few years after that I had drinks with Rand in that lounge during a production and talked a bit about the renovation, but it was mostly social chit-chat. This provides quite a bit of backstory and context that I wasn't really familiar with.

While the building was showered
with international acclaim at the time of its
completion in 1971, no one bothered to
explain its unusual design to the hometown
audience.

We understand it, we just don't like it. I personally don't like the architecture or the politics the architecture was born out of. And I use 'we' in the sense of the majority as I know some people like both the style and political movement.

^Agree

Posts are up around the building now. Looks like whatever fencing they'll be using as a barricade is on the way. Hard to tell from my vantage point, but the posts look to be about 6' tall, I'd imagine. Reality is sinking in. I may have to close my office blinds for awhile when demo really starts to kick in.

Posts are up around the building now. Looks like whatever fencing they'll be using as a barricade is on the way. Hard to tell from my vantage point, but the posts look to be about 6' tall, I'd imagine. Reality is sinking in. I may have to close my office blinds for awhile when demo really starts to kick in.

:(

We understand it, we just don't like it. I personally don't like the architecture or the politics the architecture was born out of. And I use 'we' in the sense of the majority as I know some people like both the style and political movement.

I think that's one of the "elephant in the room" things. The folks who like it, who hold nearly a religious fervor for it, are simply unable to comprehend the notion that anyone couldn't like it, merely because it should be obvious (in their view) they "ought" to..just because. There's this belief that, "well, if you'd just let me explain it to you, you'd like it" - almost the way opera fans insist everyone should like it "if you gave it a chance." Where I think the line is crossed is where the assumption is made that if you are among those that don't like the place, you're of some lower form of intellect. Liking or not liking a building doesn't make anyone stupid nor brilliant. It just means you have an opinion.

Wow...Someone should write up an article here about all of Rand's projects that have influenced OKC's architecture.

Might be interesting to compare his track record to that of Layton...

I think that's one of the "elephant in the room" things. The folks who like it, who hold nearly a religious fervor for it, are simply unable to comprehend the notion that anyone couldn't like it, merely because it should be obvious (in their view) they "ought" to..just because. There's this belief that, "well, if you'd just let me explain it to you, you'd like it" - almost the way opera fans insist everyone should like it "if you gave it a chance." Where I think the line is crossed is where the assumption is made that if you are among those that don't like the place, you're of some lower form of intellect. Liking or not liking a building doesn't make anyone stupid nor brilliant. It just means you have an opinion.

Excellent post, SD.

I think that's one of the "elephant in the room" things. The folks who like it, who hold nearly a religious fervor for it, are simply unable to comprehend the notion that anyone couldn't like it, merely because it should be obvious (in their view) they "ought" to..just because. There's this belief that, "well, if you'd just let me explain it to you, you'd like it" - almost the way opera fans insist everyone should like it "if you gave it a chance." Where I think the line is crossed is where the assumption is made that if you are among those that don't like the place, you're of some lower form of intellect. Liking or not liking a building doesn't make anyone stupid nor brilliant. It just means you have an opinion.

I 100% agree but I have a feeling there is fair number of the "I like it" crowd who themselves don't under the political motivation behind the architectural style and if it was explained to them - THEY might stop liking it. Just like the Baroque movement was designed to spread the Catholic Church in the 1600's the Modernist movement from 1930 to 1970 also had an agenda (and it turned out to be a freaking disaster for anyone who had it forced on them). It is part of the reason I would kick Le Corbusier in the crotch if he was around today.

^

You also have to respect the sentimental attachments people form with buildings and places.

One of the reasons I have not been particularly upset about losing Stage Center is I have absolutely no history with it whatsoever. I've never even been inside the place (which is telling in itself, but that's well-covered territory).

But others did have plenty of experiences there, especially since it's been around for quite a while. Or they just liked seeing it for other emotional reasons.


Feelings don't have to be rational.

^

Feelings don't have to be rational.

False. I optimize all my feelings using advanced numerical techniques. When negative emotions are indicated I outsource them to third parties.

I like Stage Center precisely because it's so weird. Every time I walk past it, I look at it a different way. It's like abstract art, to me.

It's not really functional and the design is very limited -- it would be hard to convert to something else. But it is such an odd design, I think we could have made much better use of it than we have. I totally understand why a lot of people don't like it, but I do not understand this driving need to tear it down, even if it just gets replaced with a parking lot.

http://www.pastormike.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/spock-logical.jpg

False. I optimize all my feelings using advanced numerical techniques. When negative emotions are indicated I outsource them to third parties.

ncbEucjsNFU

:cool::cool::cool:
I was being serious ;)
a serious haha it was.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5

I love this site, this is my preferred news source.

I love this site, this is my preferred news source. Agreed! Between OKC Talk and Twitter, I have no need to watch local news. Except to see how poorly they "report" stories they get from OKC Talk. :D

With the exception of Steve, I do apperciate his work.

Steve made a couple of good points in his blog post about the demolition...

He reminded everyone that the elementary school directly west will be opening in August and that the demolition will likely be complete before then.

Not only to not have the mess and danger with kiddies so close, but also because the site is presently a refuge for a good number of homeless and the school would rather have it completely cleared.


On that same point, you've got to think the the school opening will create some extra heat on Preftakes because there are lots of homeless in and around his block since it is now almost completely deserted.

Remember when the crazy guy took a hammer to the Pietà? That incident comes to my mind recently. Funny how it works sometimes.

I think that's one of the "elephant in the room" things. The folks who like it, who hold nearly a religious fervor for it, are simply unable to comprehend the notion that anyone couldn't like it, merely because it should be obvious (in their view) they "ought" to..just because. There's this belief that, "well, if you'd just let me explain it to you, you'd like it" - almost the way opera fans insist everyone should like it "if you gave it a chance." Where I think the line is crossed is where the assumption is made that if you are among those that don't like the place, you're of some lower form of intellect. Liking or not liking a building doesn't make anyone stupid nor brilliant. It just means you have an opinion.

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the preservation bias that some people have. Personally, I see many buildings that I don't particularly like, yet still agree are worth preserving, and I will defend their existence. Stage Center is far from my favorite building in OKC; I just believe that it is pretty easily the most architecturally important, and we have an extreme shortage of architectural significance here. For better or worse, no other building in OKC inspires articles like one linked above, and probably none of our existing building stock ever will.

It is possible to admit that a building is important architecturally without personally being in love with it. The idea that EVERYONE has to agree that a building is worth keeping before it is safe just means our built environment eventually sinks to the lowest common denominator. We are doing a GREAT job in OKC of sinking to the lowest common denominator.

I think you have it exactly backwards. The pro-demo group takes the approach that "I personally don't like this building, so it should cease to exist." THAT is the arrogant position, if you ask me.

Go back and read this thread and the other Stage Center thread with an open mind - if you can force yourself to do so - and you will see that the venom on this topic is directed at those who would have like to have seen preservation, not the other way around.

I will be sad to see it go. not because I am in love with it but because it is somewhat iconic. people always ask about it when visiting and it is interesting. when I see pictures of amazing buildings that were demolished in years past in OKC I wonder if we have learned much from it. just my 2 cents

I think you have it exactly backwards. The pro-demo group takes the approach that "I personally don't like this building, so it should cease to exist." THAT is the arrogant position, if you ask me.


I can't speak for everyone, but I can do a pretty good job of speaking for myself, so I am going to borrow your phrase to express my thoughts.

"I personally don't like this building, so I don't care if it ceases to exist."

As for like/don't like, I don't like it for many more reasons than just because I don't like the Modernist movement. I think it was a 40 year deterrent to development of the land south and west of it.

Ugh.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/stagecenter061814a.jpg

I guess their putting up a big black privacy fence so noone can see them demolish it.

When that building comes down, Oklahoma City will have lost its one unique structure. Period. Love it or hate it. At this point, someone said in one of the articles, and I tend to agree, it is - in and of itself - a significant piece of public art not only in this city, but in this country.

It's a shame they couldn't keep the small pieces on the left of the picture (just behind the pickup). Use it as an entrance or make some kind of coffee shop out of it.
Wouldn't be that difficult to build around it and pay a little homage.

When that building comes down, Oklahoma City will have lost its one unique structure. Period. Love it or hate it. At this point, someone said in one of the articles, and I tend to agree, it is - in and of itself - a significant piece of public art not only in this city, but in this country.

We have a long history of being short-sighted.

It's a shame they couldn't keep the small pieces on the left of the picture (just behind the pickup). Use it as an entrance or make some kind of coffee shop out of it.
Wouldn't be that difficult to build around it and pay a little homage.

Or incorporated some of it in the Myriad Gardens; would be perfect for tree houses and slides and tube bridges.

Maybe this could be done at Central Park??

Let's be honest. The pro & anti demo stage center crowds haven't been very open to the other sides opinions. Only the pro demo group has been wrong though, that is the difference.

It fools the eye. The few blue ramps and a few of the orange connecting tubes are really all that could be relocated. The building is 90%+ monolithic concrete. It will be a bear to demolish.

Fooling the eye is actually one of the things that makes the building remarkable. It is a huge gray concrete structure, yet it SEEMS airy and disconnected, and what people remember about it are the brightly-colored metal parts, which are actually a very small portion of the construction.

I just wish we would reuse those few blue ramps, connecting tubes, and metal boxes. It could be a cool element somewhere without requiring the concrete structure.

Eventually OKC is going to have the biggest "demolished historical buildings museum" in the world. That in itself is worth tearing down the stage center. What other buildings can we tear down so we can have pictures of them in this future tourist attraction museum? First National, the Oklahoma capitol, Devon perhaps? Heck, we can eventually even demo this future demo museum & really add some irony to it.

Let's be honest. The pro & anti demo stage center crowds haven't been very open to the other sides opinions. Only the pro demo group has been wrong though, that is the difference.

There's that open-mindedness!

It still shocks me that there isn't a SINGLE shred of new information/renderings/design from the developers, yet the building is about to come down. This would sting a little less if we knew what was taking its place. I'm not even a fan of the Stage Center, but the way they have gone about this whole thing is offensive.

^

Don't be surprised if they announce some new news before the wrecking ball starts it's work.

Not saying they will for certain, but I think it's likely.

At this point, someone said in one of the articles, and I tend to agree, it is - in and of itself - a significant piece of public art not only in this city, but in this country.

Just because someone said something in an article doesn't make it true. Stage Center has always been a classical "emperor's new clothes" example. A few "experts" say it is a significant piece of architecture and lemmings agree. It's only significance is that it is one of the few examples of school of architecture that was a complete failure. It's one thing to preserve an Edsel, but it's another thing all together to preserve such a large, unusable structure when there is something ready to take its place that is better.

They could announce Oklahoma City's version of the new World Trade Center complex and most preservationists, and many interested in just this building, would not be appeased. It's not about what's going to replace it, at least for many of us, it's that it's being replaced at all. Build the new OG&E building anywhere. For me, what they announce in the way of details won't matter at all. Clearly, we're past the stage of arguing all of this all over again, but the outrage and, as betts said the short-sighted nature of all this will not change. Not now, not in 20 years. It's more than that.

I think you have it exactly backwards. The pro-demo group takes the approach that "I personally don't like this building, so it should cease to exist." THAT is the arrogant position, if you ask me.

This completely overlooks Stage Center's money pit status. The sad thing is that no one with a huge pocketbook liked this building.

Just because someone said something in an article doesn't make it true. Stage Center has always been a classical "emperor's new clothes" example. A few "experts" say it is a significant piece of architecture and lemmings agree. It's only significance is that it is one of the few examples of school of architecture that was a complete failure. It's one thing to preserve an Edsel, but it's another thing all together to preserve such a large, unusable structure when there is something ready to take its place that is better.


You know, that's really, really offensive. Lemmings?

Well, OKC is replacing its one unique building with what will likely be a mid-rise not much different from the many that already line NW Expressway. I think people have the right to be upset about this.

Now the Main/Hudson development is a different story and I don't think preservationists have much of a case.

You know, that's really, really offensive. Lemmings?

I'm sorry. I apologize to any lemming that was offended by me comparing them to people who find the SC architecturally significant.:tongue:

Why is this a better use? Because it is moving OGE employees from one part of downtown too another?

Why is this a better use? Because it is moving OGE employees from one part of downtown too another?
Because it's actually going to be used.

Why is this a better use? Because it is moving OGE employees from one part of downtown too another?

Because one will pay property tax and the other one won't.

Because one will pay property tax and the other one won't.

You know, I hadn't thought of this until now but because Rainey Williams will own this building and not OG&E, there will be property taxes assessed.

If OG&E owned it out-right -- like it does their current downtown HQ and several other properties -- there would be no property tax assessed.

And since property tax is based on total value, the annual taxes paid would be about a $.5 million per year, every year once the building is open for business.

I just heard someone say the demolition is set to begin TOMORROW. Not trying to start a rumor--more trying to get an answer to one. Is that true? Confirmed?

This completely overlooks Stage Center's money pit status. The sad thing is that no one with a huge pocketbook liked this building.

No, not overlooking it at all. I don't disagree that the money pit status hastened its demise. That doesn't conflict in any way with the statement of mine that you quote. There are many people who want it down simply because they personally don't like it, and they will freely tell you this. The second part of your post I COMPLETELY agree with. If a true champion with deep pockets had emerged for this building - not this year, or in the past two or three years, but A GENERATION AGO - we almost certainly wouldn't be having this conversation today.

The second part of your post I COMPLETELY agree with. If a true champion with deep pockets had emerged for this building - not this year, or in the past two or three years, but A GENERATION AGO - we almost certainly wouldn't be having this conversation today.

What a shame one didn't.

I just heard someone say the demolition is set to begin TOMORROW. Not trying to start a rumor--more trying to get an answer to one. Is that true? Confirmed?

No demolition permit has been issue yet and I don't even think their construction/demolition fence is finished.

I just heard someone say the demolition is set to begin TOMORROW. Not trying to start a rumor--more trying to get an answer to one. Is that true? Confirmed?

I don't have any information on this, but I was actually expecting it to start this week. Demolition companies usually don't slow-play when they have the green light, and erection of the fence makes it official. Not that I expect any legal wrangling at this point, but if it is your project you would want to get it to a point of no return ASAP to avoid any last-second injunctions or protests or anything of the type. I took the opportunity yesterday late afternoon to walk around it one last time and snap some photos, figuring the fence would be up fully today and the jackhammers would start in earnest shortly afterward.

...Now the Main/Hudson development is a different story and I don't think preservationists have much of a case.

I haven't heard preservationists making much of a stink about Main/Hudson..? Nor do I expect for them to.

This development us mediocre. Downtown OKC has yet to see a major tower development from an major out of state company moving downtown. Devon was an anomaly, and looks like they are driving the next major tower development downtown. So what does that really say about commercial real estate momentum?

This development us mediocre. Downtown OKC has yet to see a major tower development from an major out of state company moving downtown. Devon was an anomaly, and looks like they are driving the next major tower development downtown. So what does that really say about commercial real estate momentum?

What other cities the size of OKC are seeing major commercial development downtown period? Louisville? Richmond? Memphis? El Paso? Jacksonville? None of them have any significant skyline-changing commercial developments in the pipes. Most skyscraper booms across the country right now are residential in nature. That is indeed something OKC lacks but will may start to see as property values increase.