Just wondering how tall is the new school going to be? The project for stage center site will be about as tall as the Colcord Hotel if they stay at 14 floors. The Colcord doesn't even register in most skyline pics that I see. What a waste of prime real estate.

The school is 2 stories and exterior near complete.

That's always been a part of this... We all just assumed there was going to be something great on that spot, so losing the Stage Center wasn't the end of the world.

But what if from the beginning it was clear were would be getting a 14-16 story building, maybe another 8-12 story building and a huge parking lot with virtually nothing for the public, no new jobs coming downtown, etc. ?

How many people would have been for losing the Stage Center if we knew all along that's what we'd be getting??
...

Quite a few, according to posts I've read. Haven't you heard? We'd be better off even if it was replaced by only a dirt lot for the next 20 years.

How many people would have been for losing the Stage Center if we knew all along that's what we'd be getting??
I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

I am leaning more and more towards this. Let me say in no way do I think this mid-rise is the best use of that land and wish something better and truly special was proposed, but it wasn't. OKC, despite the transformation that had already occurred, is not in the position a city like Houston, Dallas, or Austin is in where they could block this development in hopes of a better one coming along and have it actually pan out as envisioned. If this 14-story tower gets blocked, there is no counting on a 40 story tower being built there. In fact, I would say its a pie in the sky possibility. We have to take the cards we've been dealt. We can demand certain things in regards to the project, such as adherence to urban principles to avoid a Lower Bricktown fiasco, but to say this is just not good enough for the site and not build it completely isn't something OKC is currently in a position where that would be wise.

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

+1

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

This ^^^ We went over 20 years with little to no major construction downtown. Now we get another tower, it will be the second within 5 years and whether it's mid rise or not, it still will transform the West side of the MBG. They are proposing a large parking facility.....are we not short on parking currently ?. If done right, this parking could be okay if the perimeter is developed correctly, and at this point we really don't know about that. It's real easy to spend someone else's money when we think there are short comings with the development. I'm hoping for the best.

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

Same here. Fourthed, I guess?

Some serious thoughts on Stage Center. Give me a minute or so?

In a quick answer to MustangGT, many thought otherwise. Very conservative people didn't like it one bit. If there was a computer forum of progressive city thinkers (like this board) when the Mummer's Theater was built, we would have all been thinking it was the coolest thing to ever hit Oklahoma City. As for the division, I remember it from the day it opened, but it wasn't one-sided. It certainly was "love it or hate it," but it was unique - in the truest sense of the word. Many loved it - many hated it. But the awards rolled in.

I've read people on this board write about how actors and producers of theater today don't even like it. But I know quite a few theater types who tell me that's a minority viewpoint and the intimate, close atmosphere was a chance to really showcase great talent.

With a last and faint breath, I argue that Stage Center could again be an incredible facility. In a time where we can turn the North Canadian River into the Oklahoma River, an abandoned warehouse district into Bricktown, renovate old, dusty, decrepit buildings into beautiful new urban landscapes, we can surely turn the Stage Center into a world-class facility. Is there the will? Probably not. But, is there a way? Of course. Things have been transformed all over this country from much worse. The propaganda campaign of such normally optimistic people in this city about so many things became so negative about Stage Center it finally wore down those who support this incredible building. It wasn't a matter of how, or if, or if there's a way, (there was always a way), it was just a matter of cost and will. There was simply no will. Art (no matter how well recognized around the globe) had no way to compete with very powerful monied interests who had their eyes on this property for a long time. They will most probably soon have their demolition permit in hand. So sad. So terribly, terribly sad.

Well said. The OG&E project should be out NW near Paycom and the like, or just about anywhere else. No need for it to be downtown at all. We have decentralized jobs now and that's a good thing. Not everyone and everything can be in one location nor needs to be in one location.

Well said. The OG&E project should be out NW near Paycom and the like, or just about anywhere else. No need for it to be downtown at all. We have decentralized jobs now and that's a good thing. Not everyone and everything can be in one location nor needs to be in one location.

Are you serious?

I'm pragmatic. 90% of OKC metro isn't downtown and doesn't need to be. Not only that, it can't be. If you think it can, lets start with you telling me how and where you plan to move Tinker, all the people who work for Tinker, all the places they shop and go to school. We can work from there. Downtown is a component of OKC metro. An important one but not the most important by a long stretch or any measure.

Same here. Fourthed, I guess?

I guess it's a good thing a lot of people are okay with this project because I'm quite sure it's going to happen pretty much as planned.

Not the end of the world just a lost opportunity, in my humble opinion.


My one remaining hope is that they add more public space/elements that everyone can access and enjoy.

I'm pragmatic. 90% of OKC metro isn't downtown and doesn't need to be. Not only that, it can't be. If you think it can, lets start with you telling me how and where you plan to move Tinker, all the people who work for Tinker, all the places they shop and go to school. We can work from there. Downtown is a component of OKC metro. An important one but not the most important by a long stretch or any measure.

Your trolling has increased as of late.

NO ONE expects to move jobs like those at Tinker downtown. Ridiculous argument.

Downtown represents a synergy of business. Businesses want to locate downtown because they can easily interact with one another. Their employees can enjoy easy access to amenities, day and night, and can access the rest of the metro much more easily. Central locations are smart business.

Your trolling has increased as of late.

NO ONE expects to move jobs like those at Tinker downtown. Ridiculous argument.

Downtown represents a synergy of business. Businesses want to locate downtown because they can easily interact with one another. Their employees can enjoy easy access to amenities, day and night, and can access the rest of the metro much more easily. Central locations are smart business.

I'm not sorry if my opinions don't fit your group think. I understand you would like to build downtown and add housing, density shopping etc. and the reasons why. Downtown does not have much of that now. We do have a lot of some of those items in other places in part because we do have decentralized jobs. There's nothing wrong with building that either. We are killing a landmark building with this project, 100% needlessly.

I guess it's a good thing a lot of people are okay with this project because I'm quite sure it's going to happen pretty much as planned.

Not the end of the world just a lost opportunity, in my humble opinion.


My one remaining hope is that they add more public space/elements that everyone can access and enjoy.

The thing is, I really don't see it as that much of a lost opportunity. We are getting street level interaction on three of the four sides of the building. From the original article:


A conceptual master plan shows both towers will adjoin a multi-story parking structure that will include shops and restaurants facing Hudson and Sheridan Avenues. A daycare and play area are proposed along the south side of the garage facing the Festival Plaza that each year is home to the Festival of the Arts.

We are also likely (to use the word from the article) getting a residential tower immediately next to the new elementary. The only thing I see this project lacking is height, and as was eventually brought up in this thread, too much height on this plot could cause problems for the Gardens.

Yeah, Williams may under-deliver, but that is true for anything that he possibly could have announced. If we don't believe he will build this development as presented, why should we believe that he would build a 50 story tower if that had been the announcement?

I would still like to see more than just a restaurant on the ground floor as the only public amenity.

Well said. The OG&E project should be out NW near Paycom and the like, or just about anywhere else. No need for it to be downtown at all. We have decentralized jobs now and that's a good thing. Not everyone and everything can be in one location nor needs to be in one location.

Live on the far NW side?

I would still like to see more than just a restaurant on the ground floor as the only public amenity.

Again, according to the article:


a multi-story parking structure that will include shops and restaurants facing Hudson and Sheridan Avenues

Is there something I missed that indicates Williams has already pulled back on his original announcement and reduced "shops and restaurants" to "a restaurant"?

In the schematics, it shows one space on the ground floor of the main building as "restaurant/retail" space.

The other building is purely speculative, although there is one more restaurant space shown on Sheridan.

Live on the far NW side?

Nope. I do get around though. Have you been out there recently? There's plenty going on. But you aren't around here right?

Note that I did say:
NW near Paycom and the like, or just about anywhere else.

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

If this were proposed in 2007 (i.e. before Devon) everyone would be elated. Devon, for better or worse, has spoiled us, or at least our expectations, somewhat...

If this were proposed in 2007 (i.e. before Devon) everyone would be elated. Devon, for better or worse, has spoiled us, or at least our expectations, somewhat...

I hope this small building doesn't get built. Let the site sit as is and force Rainy to sell his stake in it. 1st the guy tells us that it will be 25 stories and IMO that was about 10 stories to short and now he brings us this 14 story load of crap? By the time he gets finished it will prob be 8-10 stories. The Colcord Hotel is 14 stories I believe and what does that do for the skyline? Nothing. Take this stuff to NW Expressway and stay off the prime downtown areas that should be reserved for world class projects. There are no do overs. If he gets this thing built I would consider it a huge setback for downtown. This is not a project the citizens of OKC will be proud to show off to out of towners. Hey look at out new 14 story skyscraper!

You don't put your trailer house next to a World Class Devon Energy Center. This would be a good project for Wichita Falls or lawton but not Prime downtown OKC location.

Hopefully the demolishing permit is denied somehow.

If this were proposed in 2007 (i.e. before Devon) everyone would be elated. Devon, for better or worse, has spoiled us, or at least our expectations, somewhat...

Agree completely.

Devon was built by cash by an insanely successful company with about 2 months worth of its profit. It was the largest private project in state history. And while I am sure that one exists, I have yet to find a project that comes close cost-wise to this built in any surrounding state recently. So when I hear "Devon has raised the bar" I cringe because that was once-in-a-lifetime. If the SC tower was 25 stories I can guarantee you people would still be complaining because "its not Devon".

The thing I enjoy most about this current design is that it compliments Devon while trying to not overshadow it.

I hope this small building doesn't get built. Let the site sit as is and force Rainy to sell his stake in it. ...
Hopefully the demolishing permit is denied somehow.

While folks are entitled to their own respective opinions, what (actually available) mechanism would someone displeased/angry/deeply concerned/etc. engage to allow OKC municipal government the authority to compel the current owner to let the site sit until a new site proposal is presented that includes a tower over X stories (whether X is 12, 22, 32, 62 or any other number) and/or compel the current owner to sell the property to another party absent a new proposal.

I do not see how one gets there from here in the world as it exists today.

While folks are entitled to their own respective opinions, what (actually available) mechanism would someone displeased/angry/deeply concerned/etc. engage to allow OKC municipal government the authority to compel the current owner to let the site sit until a new site proposal is presented that includes a tower over X stories (whether X is 12, 22, 32, 62 or any other number) and/or compel the current owner to sell the property to another party absent a new proposal.

I do not see how one gets there from here in the world as it exists today.


What happens if the city were to deny the permit to demolish the stage center? What does RW do then?

Sue.

What happens if the city were to deny the permit to demolish the stage center? What does RW do then?

On what legal basis can the demo permit be denied? A demo permit is not based on how tall or how pretty a replacement structure will be.
Absent a valid reason for denial, the owner will be able to successfully overturn the same.

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!Great post man!

Ummm, no. Hot air generator with an empty wallet.

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

I think you are spot on. I would like to see all these things in OKC and I think too many times this city settles for the absolute bare minimum. You see it in Lower Bricktown, Belle Isle, and possibly the Convention Center as people here seem to think the Cox is good enough.

I will disagree on one thing. I don't think by dreaming big the city can really force height. If Rainey Williams thought the market could support a taller tower he would probably be building one. If done right, this Stage Center Tower can do for the streetscape on the west side of downtown what Devon did for the skyline. Unfortunately it will have very little effect on the skyline and that is very disappointing. I don't think necessarily that the project should be blocked because there is no guarantee or even likelihood of another developer building a 40 story building on the Stage Center Site. If OKC denied this project, the Stage Center would likely remain rotting for the foreseeable future, or even worse five years down the line it gets bought up and an even more lackluster building gets built. The city should do whatever it can to persuade Mr. Williams to build a building that will set a new standard in this city for street-level urbanism.

There is one factor that is consistently overlooked concerning the Stage Center, but one that I feel is critical to the argument that we should save the Stage Center. That fact is this; the "City" has tried for years to find a viable developer or arts group that has the $ resources $ to purchase and renovate the Center without ANY positive results. How long can we hold out in hopes that an alternate "viable" solution is found?

With that in mind the options start dwindling, and now we are left trying to push for the best replacement project possible. So, I do agree we should let the SC go while still pushing for the best project possible...I hope this makes sense without inflaming the passionate emotions.

The Stage Center Tower makes more sense than what's there right now.

The current occupant is a waste of space. As I said in another thread, take
some photos, tear it down and put something useful in it's place. Like a
parking lot or a storm drain.

Stage Center was, is and will be a totally useless waste of downtown OKC.
Get rid of that monstrosity.

There is one factor that is consistently overlooked concerning the Stage Center,
but one that I feel is critical to the argument that we should save the Stage
Center. That fact is this; the "City" has tried for years to find a viable developer
or arts group that has the $ resources $ to purchase and renovate the Center
without ANY positive results.
You have just given us the best reason for tearing that monstrosity down and
putting something useful in it's place. Something like a parking lot or a
storm drain.

Thank you for your input. It certainly makes the decision to rid OKC of that
eye sore and total waste of space much easier.

I don't want to quote that monstrosity of a post SoonDoc but to answer your question, a lot of people here like how Oklahoma City is as the City That Never Was. I LOVE the progress and strides that OKC has made since 93. Some people I know would rather it stay quiet around here. I, personally, want our highways to be so back logged that we have a reason to implement commuter rail. I want so much downtown residential so that downtown won't be empty on nights that no events are happening and if we all had it your way, there'd be events happening 7 nights a week in downtown on a scale we currently can not fathom.

The problem of course is that we don't have special interest groups in our pockets that, I swear, seem to want to hold the city back. Keep it on a leash...

What OKC needs is new money and new residents from other cities from other states with outside influences to make OKC grand but that's going to be a tough wall to bust through. The revolutionists were the forefathers of MAPS, the pioneers are today.

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

It's a combination of dreaming big and dreaming realistically that makes a world class city come to fruition. Furthermore, heights isn't a matter of low standards. It's a matter of what we value and want to hold to a high standard. What does it say about us if all we care about is height? Reflexively, what does it say about European cities that routinely value urban design far more than height (learned that while doing design studios on study abroad) and continue to build far greater, grander urban environments than we do over here. One of my favorite urban cities in the world is Utrecht, NL which has a core of modern office skyscrapers outside the center city but in the center city, one of the world's greatest urban environments, the tallest tower is a cool old church tower called Dom Tower which enjoys preserved sight lines throughout the city.

Having high standards shouldn't be confused with building tall skyscrapers. Look at the glass and concrete travesty that is Downtown Dallas and compare that to more vibrant, active urban places on the periphery of DTD.

Take this great, inspirational quote:
“In the Great Recession, architects, contractors and developers are hurting. It’s time to get creative. It’s time to think small and doable. It’s time to stretch, professionally, outside one’s comfort zone. It’s time to build community, not towers.” ~ Jim McPherson in “Adapt a Building” in Phoenix Magazine

Adapt-A-Building - Phoenix Magazine (http://www.phoenixmag.com/lifestyle/valley-news/201009/adapt-a-building)


Other than that, I agree with all of your goals and dreams except for attaching height requirements to buildings we need. When you build towers you actually cover less street frontage because so much of the building masses have to be dead space for parking vehicles, then there's the plazas in front of everyone tower, and so on. Not only are 3-9 story buildings a more manageable, human-scale, but it's just a better, more impressive built environment. I promise. Would I rather have another Devon at the expense of all of those Bricktown/Deep Deuce blocks we filled with good, quality human-scale density? The choice is clear for me. I love, love, love seeing our beautiful skyline garnished with human-scale urban neighborhoods.

Austin is cool. Their high-rise blitz is cool. Portland is cooler. Their transit and new urbanist development principles are way ahead of Austin, which has the resources (UT > PSU, + state capital) to be a greater city than Portland. But it isn't.

This is what I'm talking about, why we have every right to be so proud of what we've accomplished in transforming OKC's built environment:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1397499_10151755485043731_1704151440_o.jpg

To me, the most exciting aspect of our skyline isn't the tallest tower but rather the stunning urban neighborhoods surrounding it. That's what a real city aspires to be.

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

Spot-On. I think many of us share the same ( Let's do this thing Big ) attitude now. When this snowball effect begins , it will be great. Energy Tower, 1000 ft.

I don't know if Raney W. has enough financing to build what his desires are or is he bulding what his comittments are equal to? ...I don't know, but if he is needing $$$, then our local commercial lending groups should (Step Up too) and help build what this site "should be". 16 stories vs. 40 stories, is not a gamble. The market is screaming for it.

For all these people screaming for 40 floors who swear OKC is "screaming" for the space, I wonder what market information they have regarding demand for space at the price that it would command. Is this based on knowledge or just emotion? Fact or hope? It is easy to say they should risk another $200 million or $300 million when it isn't your money. It is quite different getting the loan for it.

Let's just make him build something world class at the street and forget about that extra 10-15 floors on top.

For all these people screaming for 40 floors who swear OKC is "screaming" for the space, I wonder what market information they have regarding demand for space at the price that it would command. Is this based on knowledge or just emotion? Fact or hope? It is easy to say they should risk another $200 million or $300 million when it isn't your money. It is quite different getting the loan for it.

Let's just make him build something world class at the street and forget about that extra 10-15 floors on top.

Just in the interest of strengthening your argument, because you have worded it very saliently with the underlined text, I don't think anyone is saying that OKC doesn't need more Class A space. Not to mince words, but the market is sort of screaming for it, albeit no more than it is screaming for more well-planned residential units, and restaurants, and retail, etc. The emphasis there being on well-planned, which goes back to your argument. If you build it they won't always come. You still have to get your ducks in a row, and with financing, that's by far the hardest piece. I say that as an urban design and public policy guy who doesn't always work with development financing, so I know how hard the other pieces are.

It's a combination of dreaming big and dreaming realistically that makes a world class city come to fruition. Furthermore, heights isn't a matter of low standards. It's a matter of what we value and want to hold to a high standard. What does it say about us if all we care about is height? Reflexively, what does it say about European cities that routinely value urban design far more than height (learned that while doing design studios on study abroad) and continue to build far greater, grander urban environments than we do over here. One of my favorite urban cities in the world is Utrecht, NL which has a core of modern office skyscrapers outside the center city but in the center city, one of the world's greatest urban environments, the tallest tower is a cool old church tower called Dom Tower which enjoys preserved sight lines throughout the city.

Having high standards shouldn't be confused with building tall skyscrapers. Look at the glass and concrete travesty that is Downtown Dallas and compare that to more vibrant, active urban places on the periphery of DTD.


Tall skyscrapers isn't everything but it does contribute to urban feel. And downtown Dallas is NOT a travesty. OKC comes nowhere close when it comes to street-level restaurants/retail, beautification, and place making in the CBD. Could DT Dallas be improved? Yes. Is it a perfect downtown? No, but OKC has plenty it could learn from the built environment in Dallas even today.

I agree though with dream big and realistically. Streetscape and placemaking is extremely important and that is where we should hold Rainey Williams to his word. We can't underestimate the impact tall buildings have though.

We can't underestimate the impact tall buildings have though.

But can you quantify it? I'm having a hard time understanding why it's important enough to try to kill a mid-rise project.

But can you quantify it? I'm having a hard time understanding why it's important enough to try to kill a mid-rise project.

It's not. I do not advocate killing this mid-rise tower and think efforts should be focused on making it "world class" at street level. I am simply stating that height is very important, especially in younger cities like this one.

Tall skyscrapers isn't everything but it does contribute to urban feel. And downtown Dallas is NOT a travesty. OKC comes nowhere close when it comes to street-level restaurants/retail, beautification, and place making in the CBD. Could DT Dallas be improved? Yes. Is it a perfect downtown? No, but OKC has plenty it could learn from the built environment in Dallas even today.

I agree though with dream big and realistically. Streetscape and placemaking is extremely important and that is where we should hold Rainey Williams to his word. We can't underestimate the impact tall buildings have though.

No.... downtown Dallas really is a travesty.

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20131231-nm_26parkingb.jpg.ece/BINARY/w620x413/NM_26parkingB.jpg

It's not. I do not advocate killing this mid-rise tower and think efforts should be focused on making it "world class" at street level. I am simply stating that height is very important, especially in younger cities like this one.

Right. I didn't mean to imply that you personally advocate killing it, but that some seem to think that a 16-story tower is too short for downtown and want to find another place in the city for this project.

I'm more interested in hearing about why you (and others) think height is important. I don't necessarily disagree. I have a general idea, but I feel like I'm missing something given how extreme some of the opposition is.

Downtown Dallas is NOT something to aspire to. Bigger isn't better.

No.... downtown Dallas really is a travesty.

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20131231-nm_26parkingb.jpg.ece/BINARY/w620x413/NM_26parkingB.jpg

OKC:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=oklahoma+city&ll=35.472003,-97.519807&spn=0.005618,0.011244&hnear=Oklahoma+City,+Oklahoma&gl=us&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.472003,-97.519807&panoid=lKN1DhYVTbUXqh9JgoCVrw&cbp=12,159.59,,0,-4.64

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=oklahoma+city&ll=35.463475,-97.504542&spn=0.005584,0.011244&hnear=Oklahoma+City,+Oklahoma&gl=us&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.464264,-97.504669&panoid=_2-J7tOgsSUuKvM-l7DBqw&cbp=12,283.81,,0,2.4

Cleveland:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=cleveland&ll=41.499144,-81.698112&spn=0.010269,0.022488&hnear=Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio&gl=us&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.498998,-81.697983&panoid=z-bl1Lg5h1vtLsJtviOllw&cbp=12,56.68,,0,-6.61

Los Angeles:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Los+Angeles&hl=en&ll=34.045415,-118.25728&spn=0.004017,0.005622&sll=35.335293,-101.931152&sspn=11.514731,23.027344&t=h&gl=us&hnear=Los+Angeles,+Los+Angeles+County,+California&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.045415,-118.25728&panoid=Thp4kaZI9C2zAMN0ZlKdnw&cbp=12,34.96,,0,-3.61

Charlotte:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.227967,-80.836054&spn=0.0056,0.011244&sll=34.045415,-118.25728&sspn=0.004042,0.005622&t=h&gl=us&hnear=Charlotte,+Mecklenburg,+North+Carolina&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.227967,-80.836054&panoid=z_v-e0GKhuNiln3eDyu-xQ&cbp=12,243.93,,0,-5.75

The point is that you can find ugly surface parking in almost any major city's downtown, but that doesn't mean their entire downtown is a travesty. Downtown Dallas is nice and there is much OKC could learn from it. For instance, OKC could use far more ground level restaurants downtown. It could also use more lighting downtown as well as ornamental objects. These things help with placemaking.

Right. I didn't mean to imply that you personally advocate killing it, but that some seem to think that a 16-story tower is too short for downtown and want to find another place in the city for this project.

I'm more interested in hearing about why you (and others) think height is important. I don't necessarily disagree. I have a general idea, but I feel like I'm missing something given how extreme some of the opposition is.

Height gives the impression of a growing and prospering city. A city's skyline is a huge part of that city's image. Also, being in an urban canyon/crater creates a unique atmosphere. Imagine the Myriad Gardens at night, surrounding by well-lit, stylish skyscrapers on all four sides. That doesn't mean street interaction isn't important - it is, but a building can have BOTH. OKC in particular has a skyline that looks very peculiar to those who aren't used to seeing it, simply because the Devon tower dwarfs everything else. Just ONE more 30-40 story building would go a long ways to help out on that.

A lot of urbanists throw out they idea that European cities don't have skyscrapers yet they are amazing urban environments. That is completely true. However, OKC isn't a European city and never will be. OKC will never have cobblestone streets, barely wide enough to fit a horse carriage through, creating a canyon through 500+ year old low-rise buildings. That is Paris, it is NOT OKC.

Why can't OKC be more like Paris? Everything in Paris is man-made. Are you saying French planners and engineers are better that American planners and engineers? If so, I might be inclined to agree with you.

For all these people screaming for 40 floors who swear OKC is "screaming" for the space, I wonder what market information they have regarding demand for space at the price that it would command. Is this based on knowledge or just emotion? Fact or hope? It is easy to say they should risk another $200 million or $300 million when it isn't your money. It is quite different getting the loan for it.

Let's just make him build something world class at the street and forget about that extra 10-15 floors on top.
I will say that sometimes taking a chance and building something on spec can work out and accelerate other development. The Frost Tower in Austin was a spec tower, after it filled up as quickly as it did Cousins Properties said they wish they would have built 10 or more so floors. The difference is they had a few key tenants, not a major anchor like OG+E who was going to take most of the tower. The other side is this might help show demand downtown for more and may push some developers to build taller spec buildings. Just like in Austin it is more than likely going to be out-of-town developers who push the height on both commercial and residential towers. I see where some who want more floors are coming from, it would be nice if they did something taller but I also understand why they wouldn't.


No.... downtown Dallas really is a travesty.

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20131231-nm_26parkingb.jpg.ece/BINARY/w620x413/NM_26parkingB.jpg
My office was a block away from that lot, catty-corner to One Dallas Center which is the building on the right edge of the pic. At one time back then (1991-93) Texas Architect magazine had an article on the destruction of Downtown Dallas during the 80's, the article stated that almost 40% of the land in the Dallas CBD was surface parking lots.


The point is that you can find ugly surface parking in almost any major city's downtown, but that doesn't mean their entire downtown is a travesty. Downtown Dallas is nice and there is much OKC could learn from it. For instance, OKC could use far more ground level restaurants downtown. It could also use more lighting downtown as well as ornamental objects. These things help with placemaking.
The point you made with the link is there are plenty of other land opportunities for tall buildings in Downtown OKC. I will say that Downtown Dallas was bad when I was working there but a lot has changed in twenty years.

Why can't OKC be more like Paris? Everything in Paris is man-made. Are you saying French planners and engineers are better that American planners and engineers? If so, I might be inclined to agree with you.

Paris developed the way it did over centuries, most of which was prior to the invention of the automobile or the ability to build skyscrapers.

Portland. Savannah. Charleston. DC. The whole state of Virginia. Any College Town, USA. We have tons of great human scale places.

America isnt fundamentally different. We are just as good and capable of blossoming as a culture and society.

Portland. Savannah. Charleston. DC. The whole state of Virginia. Any College Town, USA. We have tons of great human scale places.

Human-scale and height are not mutually exclusive. Manhattan is about as human-scale as you can get yet has some of the world's most amazing skyscrapers. I know people on this site are tired of me bringing it up, but downtown Louisville has a great balance between height and street interaction for a mid-sized city in my opinion.

The Stage Center Tower, at its current height of 14 stories could still fit in well with the direction downtown OKC is going if it has amazing ground level architecture, but I am simply saying that height does have importance.

Having high standards shouldn't be confused with building tall skyscrapers. Look at the glass and concrete travesty that is Downtown Dallas and compare that to more vibrant, active urban places on the periphery of DTD.You seem like just another butthurt kid that is actually jealous of Dallas but wants to dog on it every time you get the chance.

When I worked for my dad for 4 years, I would drive people from the airport to his car lot when they were renting a car. I drove hundreds if not thousands of people and we would talk and have cool conversations during the 15-30 minute drive(depending on traffic). A lot of times we would discuss the lack of mass transit here in OKC and such.... I talked to so many people from NYC, Chicago, and Philly and it is so funny how many of them said how awesome Dallas was. I never once heard a negative thing about Dallas but some of them said they didn't care for it, but was a cool city. The things I've heard about Cleveland though........(I won't even get into).

Keep bashing Texas though man, at every chance you get! :)

Literally every single thing you said is an opinion, so you have your right to that. I do agree OKC is becoming an amazing city, but we need major high-rise towers, IMO. Urban neighborhoods are great and I want them to flourish here. The Stage Center needs at least a 25 story building on it. 500-600ft. would be awesome and anything over that would just be sugar on top.

No.... downtown Dallas really is a travesty.

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20131231-nm_26parkingb.jpg.ece/BINARY/w620x413/NM_26parkingB.jpgHahaha, I will make a thread just for you when I get time later Spartan. I seriously want to know why you hate Dallas so much. At first it was irritating, but now it is actually amusing to me. Just give me a day or two, I might even do it tonight.

tall skyscrapers isn't everything but it does contribute to urban feel. And downtown dallas is not a travesty. Okc comes nowhere close when it comes to street-level restaurants/retail, beautification, and place making in the cbd. Could dt dallas be improved? Yes. Is it a perfect downtown? No, but okc has plenty it could learn from the built environment in dallas even today.

I agree though with dream big and realistically. Streetscape and placemaking is extremely important and that is where we should hold rainey williams to his word. We can't underestimate the impact tall buildings have though.like!

I thought Dallas was this great, magical place until I actually moved there (at age 27) and figured out that in the real world of living everyday life it wasn't all that different than OKC. I have absolutely no desire to live in Dallas (or the entire metro area) again. Nice place to visit occasionally but no desire to live there again and I did have a few opportunities and offers to move back.

Downtown Dallas is NOT something to aspire to. Bigger isn't better.This is so simple a three year could figure this out- if you are looking for an urban metropolis, Dallas is NOT your city. Dallas is a great city for what it is and it is suburban oriented. Obviously people who are advocating for urbanizing everything are going to dog on Dallas, because every city HAS to have every building right up on the street or it sucks; that is a bit of an exaggeration but not far off.

I think Dallas has a good downtown, it is not perfect and could be improved, but I prefer it over Kansas City's any day of the week.

I thought Dallas was this great, magical place until I actually moved there (at age 27) and figured out that in the real world of living everyday life it wasn't all that different than OKC. I have absolutely no desire to live in Dallas (or the entire metro area) again. Nice place to visit occasionally but no desire to live there again and I did have a few opportunities and offers to move back.There is nothing special about Dallas. It more amenities and nicer high-end stores than the majority of cities has and has very high-end car dealers and such, but is just a city, like Chicago, Miami, Houston, Seattle etc.

This is extremely off topic though, but I wanted to point out the absurdity of Spartans constant bashing of Dallas.

Why can't OKC be more like Paris? Everything in Paris is man-made. Are you saying French planners and engineers are better that American planners and engineers? If so, I might be inclined to agree with you.Because it doesn't need to be. OKC needs to drive in its own direction and become a great city by setting its own path. Paris is a cool city, but OKC doesn't need to be as urban as Paris, imo.

The Stage Center tower doesn't really seem to be a building you would find in Paris anyways.

Height gives the impression of a growing and prospering city. A city's skyline is a huge part of that city's image. Also, being in an urban canyon/crater creates a unique atmosphere. Imagine the Myriad Gardens at night, surrounding by well-lit, stylish skyscrapers on all four sides. That doesn't mean street interaction isn't important - it is, but a building can have BOTH. OKC in particular has a skyline that looks very peculiar to those who aren't used to seeing it, simply because the Devon tower dwarfs everything else. Just ONE more 30-40 story building would go a long ways to help out on that.

A lot of urbanists throw out they idea that European cities don't have skyscrapers yet they are amazing urban environments. That is completely true. However, OKC isn't a European city and never will be. OKC will never have cobblestone streets, barely wide enough to fit a horse carriage through, creating a canyon through 500+ year old low-rise buildings. That is Paris, it is NOT OKC.Great post man!!!!!

We all want a nice skyline. But we have greater areas of concern if we want to improve our city. Hopefully we can address both.

But, to chime in, Dallas sucks.