Also, the green roof of this project is cool but why take away from the green block directly to the east--MBG!?

Why not build this one block south? Instead of on the Stage Center site, at Hudson and Reno? The lots are roughly the same size. Have the main tower fronting Hudson and the hotel fronting Reno.

Again. As Steve has pointed out numerous times, this is not the design. Perhaps people should put away the pitchforks until the actual design rendering is released.

No kidding, chill out and wait until they get into design proposals, etc. not to mention yes OKC often settles for less, but come on, you can't demand the private market build a mimimum # of floors, etc. Is OKC suddenly anti-capitalist now? While I too would like to see the next Burj Kalifa built there with awesome "world class" street interaction, I don't believe in using eminent domain and demanding private developers spend so much money. You don't pay $4.2 MIL for a lot and build a dump. Furthermore we were never promised anything, too many posters create their own hype over years of posts and start twisting users comments and after time, start believing them as truths.

Also, the green roof of this project is cool but why take away from the green block directly to the east--MBG!?

It's obvious per the design and their comments in the "NewsOK" article that Enogex or Enable will most likely eventually build a 3rd tower on that space, it's just a nice "filler" for the time being.

No one promised you anything.

No one promised you anything.

This x1000. A comment to a reporter does not count as a binding commitment.

It's true that nobody promised a skyscraper, all of the indications were pointing to this being a major, skyline-altering announcement so it's a letdown that it's turned out to only be a 14-story mid-rise. Maybe when the official announcement comes out, we will all be surprised by a third tower where the green space is. If what is currently shown though is built, though it's not a bad development it's still underwhelming compared to expectations. Steve has been speaking of a second mystery tower so maybe that one will be tall enough to help balance the skyline.

We demand.
We are losing.
We are being cheated.

Gee, maybe some folk who feel so dang strong on this ought to pony up the purchase price and cover expenses to date and at least some small level of profit and then show the purchaser where to catch a plane out of town? Would be one whale of a nicer send off than the barn burning pitch forking wailing and grinding of teeth that is presently going on.

And I am sorry, but whatever SC once was, it's an abandoned rotting corpse of a building now, one that no one was willing to get on board the train to save in any meaningful way, not even when someone else was willing to drive the train for them.

Demand. Cheated. Losing.

My old tired arse. It's been 3 years since the last time SC was shut down. It's well beyond time to demand others spend their funds in ways no one else is willing to tackle.

Let. it.go.already.

Again. As Steve has pointed out numerous times, this is not the design. Perhaps people should put away the pitchforks until the actual design rendering is released.

Guru, they are not using "pitchforks", but Flashlights that shed light on this position of (Small Thinking).

We demand.
We are losing.
We are being cheated.

Gee, maybe some folk who feel so dang strong on this ought to pony up the purchase price and cover expenses to date and at least some small level of profit and then show the purchaser where to catch a plane out of town? Would be one whale of a nicer send off than the barn burning pitch forking wailing and grinding of teeth that is presently going on.

And I am sorry, but whatever SC once was, it's an abandoned rotting corpse of a building now, one that no one was willing to get on board the train to save in any meaningful way, not even when someone else was willing to drive the train for them.

Demand. Cheated. Losing.

My old tired arse. It's been 3 years since the last time SC was shut down. It's well beyond time to demand others spend their funds in ways no one else is willing to tackle.

Let. it.go.already.

Precisely!!!

It's sad how we went from 2 years of excitement and anticipation to a total let down. Lets just be honest, these 2 buildings on this site do nothing for our skyline and does not do this prime piece of property justice. We need to demand a tower of at least 28-30 stories. This would put the tower around 510-530 feet. If they just took the renderings and instead of making it so wide, use that to go vertical about 15 more stories that would look great. As for the other tower planned, it could be used for commercial, residential and shopping and could be 18-20 stories. They could be placed in a way that would mirror each other and this would look great and balance out our very flawed skyline.

Listen, we were promised a new skyscraper for our downtown and this is just an average mid rise that and city or suburb in the country could throw up. If this was going somewhere else in downtown as is then fine, but ABSOLUTELY not at this prime location. We are getting cheated in every way possible by doing so. We lose by tearing down an iconic structure only to gain a better than average mid rise that does NOTHING to balance out or add to our skyline. Having an impressive skyline is important and like I said earlier, perception does become reality when it comes to people seeing our city and that it is booming. Companies wanting to relocate see this as well and it is a sign of growth and vitality. I am so, so sick of OKC just doing the bare minimum because it's better than what was done in the past. We need to dream big, think big, and become big time. I promise you, Austin, Charlotte, Nashville, etc. don't have small time minimum standards. People see what's going on there because they have big aspirations and go all out. People see that and it becomes infectious and word spreads and people want to be a part of it and see what its all about.

Flood whoever with letters, demand bricktown, downtown, core to shore, boulevard, and central park are done in a way that are second to none and world class. We don't want regrets later of what could have been like lower bricktown. Lets draw attention around the country for all the right reasons and wow people when they come here and give them a reason to want to keep coming or move here!

OKC has multiple needs in order to jump up or surpass competitive and comparative cities such as Nashville, Austin, Indianopolis, KC, etc:

1) Visual landmarks--skyline and street level--that help redefine OKC to the outside world. The skyline is one of the few things outsiders see to judge a city. OKC needs something akin to the Gateway Arch, Space Needle, Transamerica Pyramid, that automatically catapults OKC to near the front of the class of skylines of metro areas 2-3 times its size. When it comes to street level landmarks, the Stage Center WAS that--world known, albeit controversial, but representative of a certain artistic flavor. When we heard "architecturally significant", I--and I believe many others undewhelmed by this project--assumed the new building would be a landmark in its own right (vertical) to replace the dilapidated street level landmark. This project is not it. It may be architecturally significant but not in the common colloquial usage of the term, thus moving the goalposts for what is "significant." Like telling someone, "Hey, I got you a great present for Christmas" and the present is the best pair of socks on the market.

2) More skyscrapers between 400 and 700 feet, of any shape, whether a boring box tower or something a little more ambitious. Which, again, this project does not address.

3) Always need more and better entertainment options, for locals and visitors.

4) A better urban environment, which this project DOES address. We need projects like this in the OKC area, which give us the street interaction and density to improve the day-to-day experience of living or visiting OKC. This would be an excellent (and necessary) project in about 15 other places in the downtown area.

Which therein lies the tension between 1 and 4. This project answers one need while sacrificing an existing landmark asset and at the expense of the hope of something "architecturally significant."

This is what I would do, and I understand there may be financial constraints involved, but I'd like to retain the bottom 2-3 levels of the project, convert the two buildings into one 500+ foot tower, and rebuild a replica of the Stage Center (even if it can't be the exact size to make it fit) in the green space above the fourth floor where there's a park and pool. This new version would become a museum for avante-garde architecture, or museum of architectural disasters, or museum of aborted architectural projects, or all of the above, and host model replicas of such buildings possibly to-scale in a model "city" in the main room. I understand that may take up almost all of the rooftop sans the doubled-up tower, but I think it would be worth it more than a generic pool and park, when there will be a major Central park within walking distance a few years later. That way all 4 needs are addressed in one project--the landmark Stage Center is preserved (in a way), the skyline is improved with a taller tower, the new Stage Center museum would increase the entertainment options for locals and tourists, and the street level interaction of the project would be retained.

OKC has multiple needs in order to jump up or surpass competitive and comparative cities such as Nashville, Austin, Indianopolis, KC, etc:

1) Visual landmarks--skyline and street level--that help redefine OKC to the outside world. The skyline is one of the few things outsiders see to judge a city. OKC needs something akin to the Gateway Arch, Space Needle, Transamerica Pyramid, that automatically catapults OKC to near the front of the class of skylines of metro areas 2-3 times its size. When it comes to street level landmarks, the Stage Center WAS that--world known, albeit controversial, but representative of a certain artistic flavor. When we heard "architecturally significant", I--and I believe many others undewhelmed by this project--assumed the new building would be a landmark in its own right (vertical) to replace the dilapidated street level landmark. This project is not it. It may be architecturally significant but not in the common colloquial usage of the term, thus moving the goalposts for what is "significant." Like telling someone, "Hey, I got you a great present for Christmas" and the present is the best pair of socks on the market.

2) More skyscrapers between 400 and 700 feet, of any shape, whether a boring box tower or something a little more ambitious. Which, again, this project does not address.

3) Always need more and better entertainment options, for locals and visitors.

4) A better urban environment, which this project DOES address. We need projects like this in the OKC area, which give us the street interaction and density to improve the day-to-day experience of living or visiting OKC. This would be an excellent (and necessary) project in about 15 other places in the downtown area.

Which therein lies the tension between 1 and 4. This project answers one need while sacrificing an existing landmark asset and at the expense of the hope of something "architecturally significant."

This is what I would do, and I understand there may be financial constraints involved, but I'd like to retain the bottom 2-3 levels of the project, convert the two buildings into one 500+ foot tower, and rebuild a replica of the Stage Center (even if it can't be the exact size to make it fit) in the green space above the fourth floor where there's a park and pool. This new version would become a museum for avante-garde architecture, or museum of architectural disasters, or museum of aborted architectural projects, or all of the above, and host model replicas of such buildings possibly to-scale in a model "city" in the main room. I understand that may take up almost all of the rooftop sans the doubled-up tower, but I think it would be worth it more than a generic pool and park, when there will be a major Central park within walking distance a few years later. That way all 4 needs are addressed in one project--the landmark Stage Center is preserved (in a way), the skyline is improved with a taller tower, the new Stage Center museum would increase the entertainment options for locals and tourists, and the street level interaction of the project would be retained.

+1 ...get Raney that CO-signer and lets get this project going. This is a great idea w/ the SC.

^^ I'm sorry, but I quit reading after number one. I'm from KC, and I had NEVER EVEN HEARD of the SC before I joined this forum. It is not a world class symbol for the city. There is no way that the average person across the US knows what the SC is/was, if nobody in KC (a regional city) knows.

Second, I agree with the above posters about laying off of RW. He mentioned in a conversation with a reporter that he wanted to build something world class that would make OKC citizens proud. He didn't hold a conference and brag about how monumental his proposal was going to be. You all are the ones who hyped it up to the point that pretty much anything he revealed would be disappointing.

This x1000. A comment to a reporter does not count as a binding commitment.

Then we have no reason to trust a word Rainey Williams says or have any faith in his private project, for a legal monopoly. What he has presented to us is a CONCEPTUAL RENDERING, which means its a figment of his imagination. How does he even have the audacity to ask to demolish stage center without a concrete plan, regardless of height or lack there of. The only thing we know he wants to build is a massive parking garage(which the city does need) with an average to nice mid-rise. A great addition to the urban core but not on the stage center site. The second building is a concept of a concept that he just put on the rendering to try and fool the masses.

Maybe it is unfair to compare him to what Devon did, but Devon set the bar extremely high and if he puts something half-ass on the stage center site Devon will expose it more than any other property in the city.

+1 ...get Raney that CO-signer and lets get this project going. This is a great idea w/ the SC.

As long as it's at least 30 stories I am all in.

+1 ...get Raney that CO-signer and lets get this project going. This is a great idea w/ the SC.

Ever thought that OG&E may require to be the only tenant ?

We demand.
We are losing.
We are being cheated.

Gee, maybe some folk who feel so dang strong on this ought to pony up the purchase price and cover expenses to date and at least some small level of profit and then show the purchaser where to catch a plane out of town? Would be one whale of a nicer send off than the barn burning pitch forking wailing and grinding of teeth that is presently going on.

And I am sorry, but whatever SC once was, it's an abandoned rotting corpse of a building now, one that no one was willing to get on board the train to save in any meaningful way, not even when someone else was willing to drive the train for them.

Demand. Cheated. Losing.

My old tired arse. It's been 3 years since the last time SC was shut down. It's well beyond time to demand others spend their funds in ways no one else is willing to tackle.

Let. it.go.already.

You are a very sensitive and short sighted thinker to be so offended by others thoughts on a piece of real estate. NO ONE ON HERE HAS MADE ANY REAL ATTEMPT TO RALLY TO SAVE STAGE CENTER, it is the REAL ESTATE it is on. Telling people to let it go on a public forum is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as a developer using a conceptual rendering to demolish (whether you love it or hate it) an OKC landmark.

The idea that anybody OWES ANYBODY on this forum ANY explanation or has to meet the development standard professed by a bunch of amateurs who have never developed anything is just laughable. This is a private development which must meet standards and criteria outlined by the city and any other governing body. Once those standards are met, the developer can do whatever they WANT and cannot be forced to do anything that they believe is economically unwise. This isn't some art project, it is real commerce. Real people will be held accountable for decisions and cannot just do things that will be cool just because it will make our city look good in a picture.

Many of you act as if $100 million is not significant either. If you think it is not, then go try to raise it for YOUR vision. Go and actually put together a $500 million 50 story skyscraper business plan and be sure to add the costs to make it as cool as you like. Clad it in marble. Put 100,000 sq ft of retail in it and go get it leased out to cool companies. Go find 50 or 100 people to live in the million $ penthouses. Go find companies that will pay twice or three time the average rent in downtown OKC just to be there.

If you think about it, since OG&E is a utility, the rate payers would raise holly hell (and should) if it were to move into a Taj Mahal and pay exorbitant rent. While it should also demand a building that is beneficial to the citizens here with great street interaction, etc., it should put pressure on the designers to do so. It would be a win for all parties. OG&E should do it because it's the right thing to do, and for good PR.

Let's bring sanity back and quit acting like a bunch of spoiled brats.

Great points guys! In my earlier post perhaps the word "demand' was a bit strong. What I would like to see and perhaps someone on here more connected than me could help. I would like to see many emails and calls to the developer, mayor, etc. stating our disapproval of this project on this site. State that this prime location is more worthy than an average mid rise. We need to state that for this and all future projects currently planned or ongoing that it be done in a first class manner instead of minimal standards. Let it be known that we are ready for the country and world to see our city rise (literally). We want companies to locate or relocate here and to see the this place buzzing with excitement and growth. Yes, an impressive skyline is very, very, very important. It is what everyone can see from up close or from afar. With the major Interstates we have here, even if someone doesn't stop they can see the changes and growth of our skyline. Austin went from nothing to very impressive in a very short time. We can do the same, demand it and don't expect anything less. When people are in town looking to headquarter a company, don't think for a second they don't notice things like this.

Finally, I love the idea that OKC needs some type of tower or structure. I don't care if it is a steel tower all lit up and unique- it still adds to the skyline. Heck, I mentioned once that we should build that Oil Derrick and have our own version of the Eiffel Tower and even that Turbine looking building. It would send a message and make us unique that we are an Energy Power. Yes, that would be oil, natural gas, wind and solar. Lets make a statement and be proud and start thriving. Send this post to the mayor, Rainey, or even the Governor herself. Let's go on a building boom and when someone comes here in a few years that hadn't been in a while watch their jaws drop! That is what I want, so people spread the word, talk to the right people and please quit being negative and small time. We have been that for WAY too long.

There have been real attempts to save SC. It just hasn't worked.

Also, being from a large city, I am a huge fan of skyscrapers. Always have been. But skyscrapers do not make a world-class city. No one here can argue that Washington DC isn't a world class city (no skyscrapers!). There are other world-class cities that lack very many if they have any skyscrapers.

BTW before the early 90's, Philadelphia (where I'm from) couldn't have skyscrapers taller than about 540 feet due to a law about them being taller than city hall (Penn's statue's hat), but no one here would have knocked the stature of Philly in the world, then or now.

Again I love skyscrapers, and the taller the better. But with minor exception (e.g. Empire State, space needle, etc), those buildings aren't going to make or break your city in peoples memories. Their experience on your streets on the other hand, will very much make an impression.

Ever thought that OG&E may require to be the only tenant ?

Then if I were Raney, I would be demanding OG&E to let me build that world class 40 story , 20 story mixed use property tower and begin immediately.

I felt like Belushi on Animal House in the last post! "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor"?? Then he runs out of the house after his motivational speech! lol

While this thread is pretty ridiculous and circular, the very nature of this discussion is also quite a testament to how far OKC has come in recent years.

While this thread is pretty ridiculous and circular, the very nature of this discussion is also quite a testament to how far OKC has come in recent years.

Yes, it's a great sign that so many people care about what happens downtown and with this property in particular.

The idea that anybody OWES ANYBODY on this forum ANY explanation or has to meet the development standard professed by a bunch of amateurs who have never developed anything is just laughable. This is a private development which must meet standards and criteria outlined by the city and any other governing body. Once those standards are met, the developer can do whatever they WANT and cannot be forced to do anything that they believe is economically unwise. This isn't some art project, it is real commerce. Real people will be held accountable for decisions and cannot just do things that will be cool just because it will make our city look good in a picture.

Many of you act as if $100 million is not significant either. If you think it is not, then go try to raise it for YOUR vision. Go and actually put together a $500 million 50 story skyscraper business plan and be sure to add the costs to make it as cool as you like. Clad it in marble. Put 100,000 sq ft of retail in it and go get it leased out to cool companies. Go find 50 or 100 people to live in the million $ penthouses. Go find companies that will pay twice or three time the average rent in downtown OKC just to be there.

If you think about it, since OG&E is a utility, the rate payers would raise holly hell (and should) if it were to move into a Taj Mahal and pay exorbitant rent. While it should also demand a building that is beneficial to the citizens here with great street interaction, etc., it should put pressure on the designers to do so. It would be a win for all parties. OG&E should do it because it's the right thing to do, and for good PR.

Let's bring sanity back and quit acting like a bunch of spoiled brats.

Even more precisely!!

The idea that anybody OWES ANYBODY on this forum ANY explanation or has to meet the development standard professed by a bunch of amateurs who have never developed anything is just laughable. This is a private development which must meet standards and criteria outlined by the city and any other governing body. Once those standards are met, the developer can do whatever they WANT and cannot be forced to do anything that they believe is economically unwise. This isn't some art project, it is real commerce. Real people will be held accountable for decisions and cannot just do things that will be cool just because it will make our city look good in a picture.

Many of you act as if $100 million is not significant either. If you think it is not, then go try to raise it for YOUR vision. Go and actually put together a $500 million 50 story skyscraper business plan and be sure to add the costs to make it as cool as you like. Clad it in marble. Put 100,000 sq ft of retail in it and go get it leased out to cool companies. Go find 50 or 100 people to live in the million $ penthouses. Go find companies that will pay twice or three time the average rent in downtown OKC just to be there.

If you think about it, since OG&E is a utility, the rate payers would raise holly hell (and should) if it were to move into a Taj Mahal and pay exorbitant rent. While it should also demand a building that is beneficial to the citizens here with great street interaction, etc., it should put pressure on the designers to do so. It would be a win for all parties. OG&E should do it because it's the right thing to do, and for good PR.

Let's bring sanity back and quit acting like a bunch of spoiled brats.


He offered that information. If he doesnt want his project to be discussed by the public he should not have offered any information about it. Is there any regulation that states he had to provided a conceptual rendering to the DOK before it got reviewed by whatever committee will be reviewing the it? Also if holding a man to HIS WORDS is acting like a spoiled brat, count me in as a spoiled brat.

And what a selfish thought, this is OUR city not mine, not yours, not Raineys. Yes it is his development, his money, and what he says goes, that is understood. That DOES NOT mean we cannot have an opinion on it.

I just read through the last page or so...... my first vision was about 4 or 5 guys jumping up and down throwing a tantrum screaming they want a 60 story building.

What gets built will be a building that is feasable and justified. Rainey Williams will not build some monstrosity that will not make sound economic sense.

Welcome to the real world. Some of you guys need to go back and play Sim City.

Great points guys! In my earlier post perhaps the word "demand' was a bit strong. What I would like to see and perhaps someone on here more connected than me could help. I would like to see many emails and calls to the developer, mayor, etc. stating our disapproval of this project on this site. State that this prime location is more worthy than an average mid rise. We need to state that for this and all future projects currently planned or ongoing that it be done in a first class manner instead of minimal standards. Let it be known that we are ready for the country and world to see our city rise (literally). We want companies to locate or relocate here and to see the this place buzzing with excitement and growth. Yes, an impressive skyline is very, very, very important. It is what everyone can see from up close or from afar. With the major Interstates we have here, even if someone doesn't stop they can see the changes and growth of our skyline. Austin went from nothing to very impressive in a very short time. We can do the same, demand it and don't expect anything less. When people are in town looking to headquarter a company, don't think for a second they don't notice things like this.

Finally, I love the idea that OKC needs some type of tower or structure. I don't care if it is a steel tower all lit up and unique- it still adds to the skyline. Heck, I mentioned once that we should build that Oil Derrick and have our own version of the Eiffel Tower and even that Turbine looking building. It would send a message and make us unique that we are an Energy Power. Yes, that would be oil, natural gas, wind and solar. Lets make a statement and be proud and start thriving. Send this post to the mayor, Rainey, or even the Governor herself. Let's go on a building boom and when someone comes here in a few years that hadn't been in a while watch their jaws drop! That is what I want, so people spread the word, talk to the right people and please quit being negative and small time. We have been that for WAY too long.

OKC is ready for that Energy Power Tower.

OKC is ready for that Energy Power Tower.

I get it, we can put a giant oil derrick next to the Oklahoma River, put a wind turbine on top of it, and then run a natural gas pipe on top of the turbine and have an eternal flame burning 24/7.

Now if that wouldn't be a cobbled up laughing stock of a symbol.....

I just read through the last page or so...... my first vision was about 4 or 5 guys jumping up and down throwing a tantrum screaming they want a 60 story building.

What gets built will be a building that is feasable and justified. Rainey Williams will not build some monstrosity that will not make sound economic sense.

Welcome to the real world. Some of you guys need to go back and play Sim City.

Why are you so okay with being mediocre ( feasible, justified = mediocre) ? The 60 story thing came from Steve...And Pete said of course he'd rather have a 60 story than three 20 stories.

Welcome to the New Oklahoma City, where citizens care and we are tired of run of the mil mediocrity, over promises and underwhelming deliveries.

Why do people get on here if you cant handle opinion?!? Obviously this forum will have little to nothing to do with the project or how its handled. This is a place for free thinking and open discussion.

Why are you so okay with being mediocre ( feasible, justified = mediocre) ? The 60 story thing came from Steve...And Pete said of course he'd rather have a 60 story than three 20 stories.

Welcome to the New Oklahoma City, where citizens care and we are tired of run of the mil mediocrity, over promises and underwhelming deliveries.

Why do people get on here if you cant handle opinion?!? Obviously this forum will have little to nothing to do with the project or how its handled. This is a place for free thinking and open discussion.

Steve gave the singular 60 story as an example compared to getting multiple smaller buildings. If you go back a few years, the first noise that came out from the construction industry was a 40 story tower. As it turned out, that was a proposal fror OG&E and Enogex/CNP combined. Well, that fell through because of the seperation required for the MLP. So what we now have is reality, from what was first proposed to what is now requested. The project changed and what's been presented is for real.

I'm not all for smaller towers, my guess was in the 28 - 32 floor range, but they (the people in charge) decided to go a different route.

Personally, I don't think this new proposal is mediocre in the least. It may be far from perfect, but it's much better than the dead zone that currently exist.

With land so readily available, it doesn't make economic sense for 99% of developers to go vertical unless a single tenant needs that much space (Devon) or they want to make a statement (Devon).

Use up the space in the CBD, where it makes economic sense to get as much out of a single parcel, and you will get more impressive developments.

I get it, we can put a giant oil derrick next to the Oklahoma River, put a wind turbine on top of it, and then run a natural gas pipe on top of the turbine and have an eternal flame burning 24/7.

Now if that wouldn't be a cobbled up laughing stock of a symbol.....

Bella "honey boo boo" , I was not thinking of one like that. More in the lines of the Anara Tower design by The Atkins Group.

+++++++++++++++++++

(that was for catch)

As I read some of this discussion about height, I get a bit of deja vu... and then I remember why - the reaction to news the Devon tower was going to be 50 instead of 54 stories high:

Originally Posted by andimthomas
This might sound ungreatful and all, but I think they should just move their headquarters to Houston if they're just going to keep letting us down. You don't get the entire population excited for something that hasn't happened in awhile, then take it all back. I won't be surprised if they drop the height again before construction starts. Sooner or later- this building will just look the same as the rest of downtown OKC. Short and fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Now it is 850?! That's it. I don't want it anymore. The final height will be 300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronronnie1
WOW - I just read Steve's confirmation that the height has AGAIN been chopped down to 850 feet. Tomorrow it'll be 790 feet, and by Monday it'll be just twenty feet shy of Chase tower.

Ugh - I'm over it. I don't give a sh!t if they build it or not.

Steve gave the singular 60 story as an example compared to getting multiple smaller buildings. If you go back a few years, the first noise that came out from the construction industry was a 40 story tower. As it turned out, that was a proposal fror OG&E and Enogex/CNP combined. Well, that fell through because of the seperation required for the MLP. So what we now have is reality, from what was first proposed to what is now requested. The project changed and what's been presented is for real.

I'm not all for smaller towers, my guess was in the 28 - 32 floor range, but they (the people in charge) decided to go a different route.

Personally, I don't think this new proposal is mediocre in the least. It may be far from perfect, but it's much better than the dead zone that currently exist.

As I understand it Enable/Enogex will still share the space in Leadership Square. Please correct me/fill me in if not true. Pete also mentioned OG&E will keep their old building and bring the scattered OG&E employees into the new digs. Again if this is off please correct me. And according to Steve the 40 story tower is still in the works (Bank of America site).

And your last comment is something that just bugs the crap out of me, and its not just you so this is not a personal attack whatsoever, but better does not equal best, and for this site we need best.

]Bella "honey boo boo" [/B], I was not thinking of one like that. More in the lines of the Anara Tower design by The Atkins Group.

Now this makes me laugh LOL.... 'Bellaboo' is my dogs (Rhodesion Ridgeback) name.

Then we have no reason to trust a word Rainey Williams says or have any faith in his private project, for a legal monopoly. What he has presented to us is a CONCEPTUAL RENDERING, which means its a figment of his imagination. How does he even have the audacity to ask to demolish stage center without a concrete plan, regardless of height or lack there of. The only thing we know he wants to build is a massive parking garage(which the city does need) with an average to nice mid-rise. A great addition to the urban core but not on the stage center site. The second building is a concept of a concept that he just put on the rendering to try and fool the masses.

Maybe it is unfair to compare him to what Devon did, but Devon set the bar extremely high and if he puts something half-ass on the stage center site Devon will expose it more than any other property in the city.

Yeah it's completely unfair to compare what RW is trying to do to Devon... they paid $700 million for that tower in cash with plenty left over. That's not something every private developer downtown is going to be able to do.

As long as it's at least 30 stories I am all in.agreed, I would even be moderately satisfied with 25 stories, but 30 would be much better

As I read some of this discussion about height, I get a bit of deja vu... and then I remember why - the reaction to news the Devon tower was going to be 50 instead of 54 stories high:

Originally Posted by andimthomas
This might sound ungreatful and all, but I think they should just move their headquarters to Houston if they're just going to keep letting us down. You don't get the entire population excited for something that hasn't happened in awhile, then take it all back. I won't be surprised if they drop the height again before construction starts. Sooner or later- this building will just look the same as the rest of downtown OKC. Short and fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Now it is 850?! That's it. I don't want it anymore. The final height will be 300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronronnie1
WOW - I just read Steve's confirmation that the height has AGAIN been chopped down to 850 feet. Tomorrow it'll be 790 feet, and by Monday it'll be just twenty feet shy of Chase tower.

Ugh - I'm over it. I don't give a sh!t if they build it or not.
I'm not sure that is a completely fair comparison. Two of those three were the most dramatic and ridiculous posters ever to grace this site.

As I read some of this discussion about height, I get a bit of deja vu... and then I remember why - the reaction to news the Devon tower was going to be 50 instead of 54 stories high:

Originally Posted by andimthomas
This might sound ungreatful and all, but I think they should just move their headquarters to Houston if they're just going to keep letting us down. You don't get the entire population excited for something that hasn't happened in awhile, then take it all back. I won't be surprised if they drop the height again before construction starts. Sooner or later- this building will just look the same as the rest of downtown OKC. Short and fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Now it is 850?! That's it. I don't want it anymore. The final height will be 300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronronnie1
WOW - I just read Steve's confirmation that the height has AGAIN been chopped down to 850 feet. Tomorrow it'll be 790 feet, and by Monday it'll be just twenty feet shy of Chase tower.

Ugh - I'm over it. I don't give a sh!t if they build it or not.

Wow, I had forgotten how stupid that got...hilarious.

There have been real attempts to save SC. It just hasn't worked.

Also, being from a large city, I am a huge fan of skyscrapers. Always have been. But skyscrapers do not make a world-class city. No one here can argue that Washington DC isn't a world class city (no skyscrapers!). There are other world-class cities that lack very many if they have any skyscrapers.

BTW before the early 90's, Philadelphia (where I'm from) couldn't have skyscrapers taller than about 540 feet due to a law about them being taller than city hall (Penn's statue's hat), but no one here would have knocked the stature of Philly in the world, then or now.

Again I love skyscrapers, and the taller the better. But with minor exception (e.g. Empire State, space needle, etc), those buildings aren't going to make or break your city in peoples memories. Their experience on your streets on the other hand, will very much make an impression.dc is no just any city. It is the capital for the strongest nation in the world, of course it will be a world class, if OKC were the Capitol of the us, it to, would be world class.

I would love to see this building her in OKC, just. Not on the Stage Center site.

As I've stated before, I really want to become a developer, so maybe one day I'll learn things I didn't know that really affects these sorts if deals and realize how lucky we were to have the Devon Tower this early on in OKCs boom, but for now, it would really be nice to know why Rainy Williams picked this site to build a low height tower when there tons of other places to put this on.

I am extremely excited for this development, just disappointed where it is going to go.

While I'd love a 60 story tower, I don't think it's a requirement. However I also don't think I'm unreasonable at all with believing that the city should have a say in how property in the downtown area is developed. I want Rainey Williams to build something that is economically viable. However I think this is one of the most valuable blocks downtown as far as a public space goes. This block is made significantly more valuable by the presence of the Myriad Gardens right across the street.

Someone's earlier comment about Christmas presents is perfect. It's like I say to you "Dude you're gonna absolutely love what I got you for Christmas. It's totally amazing and your jaw is gonna drop." And you get all excited about it for 6 months because I told you back in June, and then when you open it, it's a fairly nice pair of wool socks. And I say "You love it right? World class, man. World class."

There are a lot of things RW can do with this same property rather than turn it into a giant parking garage with a small midrise attached. A tower half the width and twice the height would certainly be visually more impressive. But even if it's not significantly tall, changing the street interaction and making it not look like a full-block parking garage would be a huge improvement. Not cutting off California is also a must.

We as a city only have one chance to do this right, and RW has been sending a lot of signals that they're going to do it wrong. There are a lot of places within a block or two of this location where the renderings would be fine. But not right here.

As I read some of this discussion about height, I get a bit of deja vu... and then I remember why - the reaction to news the Devon tower was going to be 50 instead of 54 stories high:

Originally Posted by andimthomas
This might sound ungreatful and all, but I think they should just move their headquarters to Houston if they're just going to keep letting us down. You don't get the entire population excited for something that hasn't happened in awhile, then take it all back. I won't be surprised if they drop the height again before construction starts. Sooner or later- this building will just look the same as the rest of downtown OKC. Short and fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Now it is 850?! That's it. I don't want it anymore. The final height will be 300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronronnie1
WOW - I just read Steve's confirmation that the height has AGAIN been chopped down to 850 feet. Tomorrow it'll be 790 feet, and by Monday it'll be just twenty feet shy of Chase tower.

Ugh - I'm over it. I don't give a sh!t if they build it or not.

Not to mention Devon was replacing a parking garage...

I think Rainey and Steve have a personal relationship so i get why he is being so protective but for a professional journalist to get on a public forum and troll, when people only want whats BEST for this city is laughable.

Not to mention Devon was replacing a parking garage...

I think Rainey and Steve have a personal relationship so i get why he is being so protective but for a professional journalist to get on a public forum and troll, when people only want whats BEST for this city is laughable.

Dude are you serious? You're losing some major credibility here, I've not seen anything from Steve that would be considered "trolling". He seems to be taking the position that a lot of us are that some of the comments here are ridiculous given what we know right now (and the fact that this project is far from as awful as some are acting like it is). That last post you reference is some perspective based on past experience.

I don't think he should be able to tear down the Stage Center without a concrete plan, but I can honestly say that I don't really care one way or the other. He isn't going to knock it down only to build a parking garage.

And everybody here wants what is best for the city, no one more than Steve...likely he knows more than you do about this project and thinks whatever is coming is going to be best or at least a major improvment for OKC

I get it, we can put a giant oil derrick next to the Oklahoma River, put a wind turbine on top of it, and then run a natural gas pipe on top of the turbine and have an eternal flame burning 24/7.

Now if that wouldn't be a cobbled up laughing stock of a symbol.....


Bellaboo- aren't you just a big bundle of joy and such a positive person! You sir are exactly what is wrong with this city for far too many years. You are a negative nanny that just can't appreciate the fact that many of us want more for this city. OKC is really making great strides but could be so much more with the right decisions. You need to really quite being so negative because living that way just can't be healthy. Maybe you were the kid that was content on just being on the team rather than out playing, or maybe you got mad at the starters for excelling while you were on the outside looking in. Live and dream a little man, be positive and demand the best of our city even if you don't see it in yourself.

Okay, let's please tone down the sarcasm and hostility.

Please express your opinions respectfully and there is never a reason to get personal with anyone here.

(Not picking on any one person, just the general direction of this thread).


Thanks.

Not to mention Devon was replacing a parking garage...

I think Rainey and Steve have a personal relationship so i get why he is being so protective but for a professional journalist to get on a public forum and troll, when people only want whats BEST for this city is laughable.

I'm not trolling. I am questioning the obsession with height. I have NO personal relationship with Rainey Williams. And it's amazing that nobody is catching on to what I am reminding again and again... will DDRC approve demolition of Stage Center without really knowing what Williams' building will look like?

... will DDRC approve demolition of Stage Center without really knowing what Williams' building will look like?

I hope not.

It's a bad idea in general but particularly when there is something of value (to many, but not all) on the property.

^^^^

I keep wondering why Steve keeps sticking up for RW as well. Maybe he feels that he is partly to blame for the high expectations (adding the stories together versus seperate buildings). That is an honest mistake/misunderstanding that any of us could have made. Either way, we have not seen the true renderings so people should not freak out just yet, BUT RW does not deserve any benefits of the doubt on this project as we barely know who he is or what his previous works are. All we know is that he bought BOK tower and made minimal aesthetic changes as far as I can tell. Nothing was done to make BOK stand out from previous ownership. His perceived lack of knowledge (from my vantage point) on how to execute this large of project from the ground up is what makes me the most skeptical. I hope I am proven way off base....

As has been mentioned before, he is asking to demo the building right away but not planning to break ground until 2015.

The longer between those two activities the greater likelihood for a project to come off the rails or be scaled back. They almost never get better or grow in that interim period.

As I read some of this discussion about height, I get a bit of deja vu... and then I remember why - the reaction to news the Devon tower was going to be 50 instead of 54 stories high:

Originally Posted by andimthomas
This might sound ungreatful and all, but I think they should just move their headquarters to Houston if they're just going to keep letting us down. You don't get the entire population excited for something that hasn't happened in awhile, then take it all back. I won't be surprised if they drop the height again before construction starts. Sooner or later- this building will just look the same as the rest of downtown OKC. Short and fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Now it is 850?! That's it. I don't want it anymore. The final height will be 300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronronnie1
WOW - I just read Steve's confirmation that the height has AGAIN been chopped down to 850 feet. Tomorrow it'll be 790 feet, and by Monday it'll be just twenty feet shy of Chase tower.

Ugh - I'm over it. I don't give a sh!t if they build it or not.

Nah. Like Cuatro said...Those were some posters that lived for hyperbole. Just like many in here. I think that a lot of us are cautiously optimistic (I know I am) about this whole deal and just aren't vocal about it.

I just don't post much in here because I don't know enough to comment intelligently other than saying "I LIKE THIS" when I saw that design. I don't care what a lot of people say. I like the current concept. I don't care about height...And besides...If you build a really tall tower, wouldn't it blot the sun from the sky for people hanging out at the Myriad Botanical Gardens for most of the day?

I am not sticking up for Williams. I am questioning the mob sense of entitlement for a higher tower (promised a skyscraper?). This is a typical response for when I challenge the majority on this site - it's happened before with transit. You don't like it, so then the accusations start of personal relationships, bias, etc.
As for BOK - Pete tells you Williams made minimal aesthetic changes, what I saw differs from Pete's conclusion. I've been in the building quite a bit over the years and saw how run down it was prior to Williams' improvements.
The high expectations were set, ultimately, by participants on this site.

Just curious why even release a conceptual drawing then? Only one could hope it was for some kind of feedback...

Dude are you serious? You're losing some major credibility here, I've not seen anything from Steve that would be considered "trolling". He seems to be taking the position that a lot of us are that some of the comments here are ridiculous given what we know right now (and the fact that this project is far from as awful as some are acting like it is). That last post you reference is some perspective based on past experience.

I don't think he should be able to tear down the Stage Center without a concrete plan, but I can honestly say that I don't really care one way or the other. He isn't going to knock it down only to build a parking garage.

And everybody here wants what is best for the city, no one more than Steve...likely he knows more than you do about this project and thinks whatever is coming is going to be best or at least a major improvment for OKC

Comparing anyone to Thunder is trolling (I've been a very frequent reader/follower of this site and have only recently started to comment, like since before Devon broke ground reader/follower, so I know how ridiculous Thunder was.) NO ONE on here has said this is an awful development, or that it has no place in OKC and should be scrapped. The argument is location. Steve is a normal person with a lot of credibility and connections and when he goes off the deep end he should be called out on it, because along with Pete, their opinions and information carry the most weight.

I KNOW he knows tons more than me, that is why (IMO)his trolling is uncalled for.

Im also aware that Rainey probably knows what kind of real estate dominoes are about to fall around his development. How does caution and skepticism automatically lead to, "I hate this". Lots of people werent for the then Ford Center, and I'd say that worked out pretty well. Time will be the judge but without caution and skepticism from the outside we end up with lower bricktown.

I just read through the last page or so...... my first vision was about 4 or 5 guys jumping up and down throwing a tantrum screaming they want a 60 story building.

What gets built will be a building that is feasable and justified. Rainey Williams will not build some monstrosity that will not make sound economic sense.

Welcome to the real world. Some of you guys need to go back and play Sim City.

I am jumping up and down right now screaming profanities at Rainey at the top of my lungs for proposing a short little building like this on a prime piece of property next to a world class Devon Tower. Well not really but.....

If he gets by with this it will be much worse than anything Hogan or anyone else did. This will be something the city will have to live with for the foreseeable future. There are no do overs once this is built. It's like building a multi million dollar mansion and then someone comes pulling up in an old trailer and setting up across the street.:D

I was not comparing anyone to Thunder. I was pointing out that this was not the first time we've seen some heavily emotional response involving disappointment with the height of a building.

There are no do overs once this is built. :D


Meanwhile, back in time, someone is looking at the site plan for Stage Center, saying there are no do-overs once this is built. :-)

And this isn't about saving the Stage Center. That junk should have been bulldozed years ago. This is about LOCATION. Plenty of areas around OKC where a 14 story building would fit nicely. This location is just too good for Rainey's project. Let a real developer take charge and build a real skyscraper that this city needs.