what would be great at this point, is if OGE demolished the stage center, then took their multimillion dollar project, and the second possible tower with its tenant and built a 50 story building in Tulsa instead, citing citizen disapproval as their reason.

I don't know it that would be great, but ONG did move their headquarters from OKC to Tulsa in the twenties....so it could happen I guess.

We are trading the ugliest building in the city for an aesthetically pleasing building. I also agree a grass lot would have been been an improvement over that eye sore. Some people are just complainers.

It's not about the height, it's about the amount of square footage required for the building. With such a long horizontal footprint, it more than likely cost a lot less to build wide than tall. What's restricting the height is the 3 plus acres available to build on.

If it was me I would have subdivided the land and built on a small portion of it. He could have made a profit on the land by selling it off in smaller pieces. In fact, the Oklahoma Foundation should have done that themselves. They could have sold this place for 5X more if they had broken it up.

If it was me I would have subdivided the land and built on a small portion of it. He could have made a profit on the land by selling it off in smaller pieces. In fact, the Oklahoma Foundation should have done that themselves. They could have sold this place for 5X more if they had broken it up.

That's a good point. And doing so may have helped avoid this being yet another super block surrounding the park. Then it again, it would be the only park frontage that's not one.


We are trading the ugliest building in the city for an aesthetically pleasing building.

Now that's amusing.

We are trading the ugliest building in the city for an aesthetically pleasing building. I also agree a grass lot would have been been an improvement over that eye sore. Some people are just complainers.

There is no room here for throwing around insults to people who share a different opinion than you. Ever heard of art being in the eye of the beholder, or do you just assume your opinion reigns as supreme fact in all situations?

As I've stated before, I'm not even a fan of the stage center. I don't find it all the appeasing to the eye, yet I know a lot of people hold a special place in their heart for it. Also to respond to a point made earlier by somebody stating their out of town friends don't enjoy it. WHO CARES? This is an OKLAHOMA CITY building. A lot of people born and raised in OKC really enjoy the unique look and function of this building. It could be repurposed and it could be rejuvenated. This is 100% fact. Would it take money? Yes, but every building that has sat largely vacant over the last few decades would cost money to repair.

Honestly I'd rather have the Stage Center torn down for something that could actually take advantage of such a prime spot. Not for a tiny headquarters of a company who has a monopoly and would not be offering any use to the general public.

Can we talk about how sketchy this deal is?

WHY is Rainey building this building for a privately held, monopolistic company to meet their exact requirements? What if they decide to move, and then another company wants to move in but the space isn't the perfect amount of size for them? Why not build a larger building (as he said he would), with the chance that OGE could either grow or the building could be used by another company over time? Why does it seem like this is just a sideways deal for OGE to build a building but not have to deal with the negative press?

Also, why would he hire a firm that has NO experience building highrises to draw up conceptual plans for this property? Why should we trust that? I sure as heck don't. With how much the plans have changed in just the last few months, how can we be sure this thing won't be entirely scraped eventually? NOTHING about this project seems concrete.

OG&E is not a tiny HQ, as mentioned it would have upwards of a thousand employees in the building. The building is not tiny either. It may not be as tall as wanted, but if you look at the footprint, it would be upwards of half a million sq feet. Now this is a guess, but I'd bet i'm close.

This building is an extreme upgrade over their existing buildings. Everyone seems to think it would come in less than advertised, and it could, but if we remember, Devon's first estimate was over a million square feet. When it was all said and done it ended up being over 1.8 million.

There is no way to know sq ft #s due to lack of information. I'd have a lot easier time accepting these plans if they were more concrete. This whole 14-16 stories, with a hotel that might be 12 stories, but shows 7 stories in the conceptual drawings really just leaves with a huge uneasy feeling. Especially after the guy who is building the building has ALREADY broken so many promises. The fact they are applying for demolition with these uncertain plans is just a big WTF.

I think Rainey is just under-promising right now and will over deliver. My guess is he released the conceptual drawings to generate some buzz and get another tenant to jump on board.

Best case scenario but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

OG&E is not a tiny HQ, as mentioned it would have upwards of a thousand employees in the building.

They probably aren't moving all their downtown employees into this one location.

According to someone at OG&E, they make keep some of their employees in their current HQ building.

They probably aren't moving all their downtown employees into this one location.

According to someone at OG&E, they make keep some of their employees in their current HQ building.

If you're not consolidating them, what's the point of the new building that you were going to use to consolidate?

Because many are scattered in a bunch of different building not owned by OG&E.

They may keep some functions in their current HQ and consolidate everyone else here.

Because many are scattered in a bunch of different building not owned by OG&E.

They may keep some functions in their current HQ and consolidate everyone else here.

Why not just build one large tower that you own, instead of leasing space from Rainey?

Why not just build one large tower that you own, instead of leasing space from Rainey?

you get the other guy to use / invest his money w/o the exposure on the "note".

Why not just build one large tower that you own, instead of leasing space from Rainey?

I'm not saying they won't move all their employees into the new space, I'm just saying there is a possibility they won't.

And I don't think they wanted to own this property because of the possible PR fall-out.

I am all for mid-rise development and increasing density in downtown OKC, just not at the expense fo our small architectural heritage. Or in front of the new elementary school. The Stage Cneter is strategically sited and connects the Myriad Gardens and the School. Were it repaired, it would make a great place for special school events in additonal to a performance space for the whole city. There are so many open blocks of surface parking that OG&E could locate in numerous places. Why dont we value our architectural heritage and preserve one of the few internationally notible (whether you personally like it or not) buildings that we as Oklahomans can be proud of?
To sign a petition asking our city leadership to stop the project, go to the following link:
https://www.change.org/petitions/oklahoma-city-downtown-design-review-committee-preserve-stage-center

I am all for mid-rise development and increasing density in downtown OKC, just not at the expense fo our small architectural heritage. Or in front of the new elementary school. The Stage Cneter is strategically sited and connects the Myriad Gardens and the School. Were it repaired, it would make a great place for special school events in additonal to a performance space for the whole city. There are so many open blocks of surface parking that OG&E could locate in numerous places. Why dont we value our architectural heritage and preserve one of the few internationally notible (whether you personally like it or not) buildings that we as Oklahomans can be proud of?
To sign a petition asking our city leadership to stop the project, go to the following link:
https://www.change.org/petitions/oklahoma-city-downtown-design-review-committee-preserve-stage-center

I'm not signing...let it be replaced!

Once you guys gain the signatures necessary are you guys going to fund the millions to repair Stage Center? If not, your petition is futile.

you get the other guy to use / invest his money w/o the exposure on the "note".
That was one of the factors that doomed the early 80's OG+E HQ building project.

once you guys gain the signatures necessary are you guys going to fund the millions to repair stage center? If not, your petition is futile.

amen!

I'm not signing...let it be replaced!

Me neither.

maybe they want two buildings for redundancy purposes. kind of a stretch, I know. but they are a major utility.

All 300 people that have signed? Are those 300 people a bunch of millionaires? If not, why even do that petition? You don't have the means to renovate, plus, upkeep. Just seems about as pointless as those dweebs that trespassed the Devon tower last week.

All 300 people that have signed? Are those 300 people a bunch of millionaires? If not, why even do that petition? You don't have the means to renovate, plus, upkeep. Just seems about as pointless as those dweebs that trespassed the Devon tower last week.

Well, to be fair - If they are content to just have SC sit, as it has the past couple of years, 300 folk is about all that is really needed. If memory serves, it was costing the foundation about 100,000 a year in expense for it to simply sit idle. At 300 committed folks that works out to a bit less than a daily soda at MickeyD's (100000/300/365).

Petition already up to 400, and it will grow fast.

If OG&E isn't moving all of their employees in what is the point of limiting the size of this development? It seems like all the buildings downtown were built with a sense of place/time/beauty/function-ability/business and this one is going to built for one reason and one reason only: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Rainey wants to make sure he can recoup his $ as fast as possible by building the smallest structure that he can while guaranteeing 100 occupancy. This project needs a leader, and with 2 separate interests at heart between Rainey and OGE this project is bound to fail.

Jcouger, why have a building, that's a piece of crap, just sit and continue to gather dust and mold? What's the point, other than you just being upset over the size? It really doesn't matter, though. That petition is useless. Williams owns the property and the chamber thinks it's as much as an eye sore as the rest of us. Stage Center is coming down, finally.

Btw, I grew up going there to watch plays with my school. It was nasty then and still is to this day. Other than people thinking its a cool looking building on the exterior, it has no use anymore.

The same thing could have been said for Bricktown and the Skirvin 15 years ago. But I guess the Stage Center will fall on the other side of the spectrum, like the Biltmore Hotel.


They are about to create a HUGE disconnect between the elementary school and the Myriad Gardens, that won't be able to be fixed. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to get this site right, and we are accepting the lowest possible proposal they could have given us. But I guess if we can't look farther then one day ahead then this is a great idea.

I don't care about saving the stage center, I care about getting a development out of this that matches the elite location this is proposed on. But once something is developed here, IT IS HERE FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES + SOME.

Jcouger, why have a building, that's a piece of crap, just sit and continue to gather dust and mold? What's the point, other than you just being upset over the size? It really doesn't matter, though. That petition is useless. Williams owns the property and the chamber thinks it's as much as an eye sore as the rest of us. Stage Center is coming down, finally.

Btw, I grew up going there to watch plays with my school. It was nasty then and still is to this day. Other than people thinking its a cool looking building on the exterior, it has no use anymore.

Its sad you're more concerned about removing a building that has been there for 40+ years rather than what is replacing it. If you think what was presented was anything close to world class I encourage you to go see more of the world. This is far from world class.

The same thing could have been said for Bricktown and the Skirvin 15 years ago. But I guess the Stage Center will fall on the other side of the spectrum, like the Biltmore Hotel.


They are about to create a HUGE disconnect between the elementary school and the Myriad Gardens, that won't be able to be fixed. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to get this site right, and we are accepting the lowest possible proposal they could have given us. But I guess if we can't look farther then one day ahead then this is a great idea.

I don't care about saving the stage center, I care about getting a development out of this that matches the elite location this is proposed on. But once something is developed here, IT IS HERE FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES + SOME.

I agree. This is another case of OKC settling for the bare minimum when "world class" was promised. Rainey Williams promised a world class development, not members of OKCTalk, Pete, or Steve Lackmeyer. Rainey Williams, the developer, promised it.

Kind of reminds me of this, proposed by Randy Hogan for Lower Bricktown.

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-fa1b957d24c7aa2829891201a1f50add.jpg

And instead we got a bunch of one story chain restaurants and canal-side surface parking.

I am not attached to the Stage Center either, but I think if it is going to be redeveloped it needs to be done right. Given the promises already broken by Rainey Williams, he can't be trusted to build even what is shown in the rendering. Who's to say it won't morph into something like this before all is said and done?

http://www.crownwest.com/images/interior/properties/Hedgemore.jpg

They are about to create a HUGE disconnect between the elementary school and the Myriad Gardens, that won't be able to be fixed.

How so?

How so?

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/lead630-9202cc649412e2eaf44d94a5ad287d43.jpg

like this

There is no synergy between this proposal and the gardens & the elementary school. They don't interact with each other. Its the gardens, a corporate HQ and then the elementary school. The HQ benefits from the other 2, but the elementary school and the gardens don't benefit from HQ at all. They should all improve each other at the same time. Heck, they even blocked off the California easement with the proposal creating a complete disconnect from the Elementary School and the Myriad Gardens, something that should not happen at all costs. There is too much opportunity for these 3 parcels of land to act as a continuous flow that could potentially stretch even farther west. But once the Gardens are cut off from the west by this development it is going to cause any momentum coming from the Gardens going west to completely stop.

Got it?

There is no synergy between this proposal and the gardens & the elementary school. They don't interact with each other. Its the gardens, a corporate HQ and then the elementary school. The HQ benefits from the other 2, but the elementary school and the gardens don't benefit from HQ at all. They should all improve each other at the same time. Heck, they even blocked off the California easement with the proposal creating a complete disconnect from the Elementary School and the Myriad Gardens, something that should not happen at all costs. There is too much opportunity for these 3 parcels of land to act as a continuous flow that could potentially stretch even farther west. But once the Gardens are cut off from the west by this development it is going to cause any momentum coming from the Gardens going west to completely stop.

Got it?

+1

It just struck me, looking at this picture again. This isn't about putting up an OG&E headquarters. Their proposed building is fairly small, and could be placed almost anywhere downtown. The entire purpose of this development is so they can build a giant ass parking garage. This building has way more parking than OG&E needs. Rainey Williams has proposed the bare minimum just so they can put a public parking garage there.

The same thing could have been said for Bricktown and the Skirvin 15 years ago. But I guess the Stage Center will fall on the other side of the spectrum, like the Biltmore Hotel.


They are about to create a HUGE disconnect between the elementary school and the Myriad Gardens, that won't be able to be fixed. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to get this site right, and we are accepting the lowest possible proposal they could have given us. But I guess if we can't look farther then one day ahead then this is a great idea.

I don't care about saving the stage center, I care about getting a development out of this that matches the elite location this is proposed on. But once something is developed here, IT IS HERE FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES + SOME.

I'm sorry, but there is no comparison between the Skirvin/Bricktown and SC. Skirvin and Bricktown had the bones to be redeveloped into something special from the get go. SC, however, does not. There is a reason it has sat idle for so long. What could a developer possibly turn that in to? Like I said earlier, if you're going to disagree with this development then focus your arguments on that, not on the SC. You've done that for the most part though.

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/lead630-9202cc649412e2eaf44d94a5ad287d43.jpg

like this

So do you not want any towers on the SC site? Because any development is going to create a barrier between the elementary and the MBG, unless there is a huge tunnel going through the bottom few levels. I'm not saying this development is the answer, but I would prefer the entire block gets developed than have a single tower with a massive "plaza" surrounding it.

There is no synergy between this proposal and the gardens & the elementary school. They don't interact with each other. Its the gardens, a corporate HQ and then the elementary school. The HQ benefits from the other 2, but the elementary school and the gardens don't benefit from HQ at all. They should all improve each other at the same time. Heck, they even blocked off the California easement with the proposal creating a complete disconnect from the Elementary School and the Myriad Gardens, something that should not happen at all costs. There is too much opportunity for these 3 parcels of land to act as a continuous flow that could potentially stretch even farther west. But once the Gardens are cut off from the west by this development it is going to cause any momentum coming from the Gardens going west to completely stop.

Got it?

Like the petition, I doubt your reasoning will be considered in the final matter.

Personally, I'll take this development as it is but only if the block between California and Reno is slated for development of a larger caliber. Otherwise Stage Center needs to be left untouched until Rainy can get his game together and come up with a project worthy of bulldozing a icon I don't give two cents for... And again, my reasoning will unlikely be considered in the final matter as well, which is a shame.

So do you not want any towers on the SC site? Because any development is going to create a barrier between the elementary and the MBG, unless there is a huge tunnel going through the bottom few levels. I'm not saying this development is the answer, but I would prefer the entire block gets developed than have a single tower with a massive "plaza" surrounding it.

My thoughts exactly. I know what the development looks like, I have seen the renderings but any development on this site will create a barrier between the school and the gardens. The same could be said for Devon Tower creating a barrier between the library and the gardens. Would you rather have what Sandridge is doing and have a huge building in the middle with a few buildings on the outside? How would you like to see this block developed?

So do you not want any towers on the SC site? Because any development is going to create a barrier between the elementary and the MBG, unless there is a huge tunnel going through the bottom few levels. I'm not saying this development is the answer, but I would prefer the entire block gets developed than have a single tower with a massive "plaza" surrounding it.

No, I want a world class development like we were promised by the developer. I'm convinced a world class project could certainly find a way to connect the MBG and the school, while including the entire block. Also a world class project would have had the fore sight to include that in the proposal. I'm not an architect, so I don't have the answer, but as you agree what we seem to be getting is not the answer either.

It's not ridiculous to expect world class when that is what was promised to be delivered. Someone should have taught Rainey not to write checks his architects could not cash.

I'm sorry, but there is no comparison between the Skirvin/Bricktown and SC. Skirvin and Bricktown had the bones to be redeveloped into something special from the get go. SC, however, does not. There is a reason it has sat idle for so long. What could a developer possibly turn that in to? Like I said earlier, if you're going to disagree with this development then focus your arguments on that, not on the SC. You've done that for the most part though.

I think there is a comparison. Regardless of personal opinion of beauty, this is one of the most important non highrise buildings our city has. But you are also correct in saying I should focus my arguments on demanding a better development for this location. My statements in regards to saving the stage center were in direct reply to people arguing that this building is completely worthless and an eye sore with remarks such as a grass lot would be an improvement. This is a valuable building, and the development that replaces it should have to take in to account that we are losing a unique structure to our city that has a emotional ties to a lot of people.

My thoughts exactly. I know what the development looks like, I have seen the renderings but any development on this site will create a barrier between the school and the gardens. The same could be said for Devon Tower creating a barrier between the library and the gardens. Would you rather have what Sandridge is doing and have a huge building in the middle with a few buildings on the outside? How would you like to see this block developed?

The Devon Atrium took this in to account beautifully. Along with what could be shops running along their parking garage eventually. Even the proposed convention center has created an attempt to prevent the momentum from the myriad gardens getting cut off. It is not hard, but I am no architect. People get paid to do stuff like this, they can problem solve and create solutions to this.

As stated before, this is going to create a "century century" effect in which it just becomes a huge block with a boring exterior of a parking garage. If anybody wants to argue for another century center, I'd love to see your presentation.

The Devon Atrium took this in to account beautifully. Along with what could be shops running along their parking garage eventually. Even the proposed convention center has created an attempt to prevent the momentum from the myriad gardens getting cut off. It is not hard, but I am no architect. People get paid to do stuff like this, they can problem solve and create solutions to this.

As stated before, this is going to create a "century century" effect in which it just becomes a huge block with a boring exterior of a parking garage. If anybody wants to argue for another century center, I'd love to see your presentation.

While I don't disagree, this is what I was expecting and as long as there are retail, restaurants, etc surrounding so we don't just have a big box with no street interaction, I think it will be fine. Again, just my opinion and I know you don't agree with me.

Its sad you're more concerned about removing a building that has been there for 40+ years rather than what is replacing it. If you think what was presented was anything close to world class I encourage you to go see more of the world. This is far from world class.

Where did I say it was world class? Trust me, I've seen more of the world than 95% of you while I was in the Air Force. Plus, I just moved back to OKC from Philadelphia. If you think the stage center is a world class building you're sorely mistaken. It's an eye sore. Been ran down since the day it opened.

feeling a bit like I wandered into a basset hound show at the convention center.

Where did I say it was world class? Trust me, I've seen more of the world than 95% of you while I was in the Air Force. Plus, I just moved back to OKC from Philadelphia. If you think the stage center is a world class building you're sorely mistaken. It's an eye sore. Been ran down since the day it opened.

Rainy Williams, the guy who owns the land and is leading the project promised this to be a world class building. If you don't know the context of the thread maybe you should go back and read. I dont care what you say, and obviously you don't know what you are talking about if you didnt pick up the reference I made to "world class".

There is no synergy between this proposal and the gardens & the elementary school. They don't interact with each other. Its the gardens, a corporate HQ and then the elementary school. The HQ benefits from the other 2, but the elementary school and the gardens don't benefit from HQ at all. They should all improve each other at the same time. Heck, they even blocked off the California easement with the proposal creating a complete disconnect from the Elementary School and the Myriad Gardens, something that should not happen at all costs. There is too much opportunity for these 3 parcels of land to act as a continuous flow that could potentially stretch even farther west. But once the Gardens are cut off from the west by this development it is going to cause any momentum coming from the Gardens going west to completely stop.

Got it?

California should be reopened and I don't see anything in this proposal that prevents that inte future. Am I wrong?

Hoya, how much parking is included? Te initial stories were disturbingly low on specifics which is becoming the norm for this mystery tower phenomenon.

Here's the quote; hope he lives up to his promise:


Rainey Williams, meanwhile, is promising that his development won't disappoint.

“I'm very excited to be doing this project,” Williams said. “I've been in this community my entire life, and we've seen where out-of-state owners didn't work out as well. We're going to build a high-rise that will be world class in every way.”

http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-city-to-get-new-tower/article/3866102

California should be reopened and I don't see anything in this proposal that prevents that inte future. Am I wrong?

Look at the renderings at the top, specifically #2 and #6 that show California. It looks like an entrance to the parking garage is being built there with a stage on the other side for the Arts Festival. I'm not saying it can't happen but a lot of work would have to be redone to reopen California if that is done.

California should be reopened and I don't see anything in this proposal that prevents that inte future. Am I wrong?

Hoya, how much parking is included? Te initial stories were disturbingly low on specifics which is becoming the norm for this mystery tower phenomenon.

Yes, this proposal has an underground entry to their garage on the west end of the California easement.

Rainy Williams, the guy who owns the land and is leading the project promised this to be a world class building. If you don't know the context of the thread maybe you should go back and read. I dont care what you say, and obviously you don't know what you are talking about if you didnt pick up the reference I made to "world class".

Dude chill...he is the one that started the mystery tower thread...I'm pretty sure he's been reading it longer then you've been a member on the board.

High rise and world class. How many times could be mislead in one sentence? That quote was only from 5 months ago. Imagine what could change between now and SC demolition, and then between SC demolition and construction. Makes my skin crawl.

Here's the quote; hope he lives up to his promise:



Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | News OK (http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-city-to-get-new-tower/article/3866102)

Maybe Rainey is confused as to what a high rise is versus a mid rise...

Let's hope he's not equally confused about what "world class" means.

Dude chill...he is the one that started the mystery tower thread...I'm pretty sure he's been reading it longer then you've been a member on the board.

Yet Pete backed me with Raineys quote. (don't drag Pete in this, Im just stating fact). And if he did start the thread how could he have missed the "world class" promise? I couldnt be more chill, dont confuse my passion with anger or hostility.

Yet Pete backed me with Raineys quote. (don't drag Pete in this, Im just stating fact). And if he did start the thread how could he have missed the "world class" promise? I couldnt be more chill, dont confuse my passion with anger or hostility.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I know Rainey said that. Coov was responding to your post where you said
If YOU think what was presented was anything close to world class I encourage you to go see more of the world. This is far from world class. In the context of that whole conversation, he never said HE thought it was world class or needed to be...you brought that into the discussion based on what Rainey said...not what coov said and accused coov of thinking it was world class. That is why coov responded "When did I say this was world class?"

So again...whether passion or hostility, chill...I'm sure he agrees, like the rest of us do, that this is not world class. However, some including myself, still think its a vast improvement over the stage center because there is really no doubting that unless you just love the stage center. I do hope the developement improves to include a larger tower and/or more buildings but given the street interaction, if built as proposed, I would be mostly ok with it. More mid-rise buildings isn't going to kill anyone, especially if more high rises are supposedly on the way (per Steve's article). Go down to FTW, a downtown that consists of mostly mid-rises, and tell me that downtown isn't cool.

Where did I say it was world class? Trust me, I've seen more of the world than 95% of you while I was in the Air Force. Plus, I just moved back to OKC from Philadelphia. If you think the stage center is a world class building you're sorely mistaken. It's an eye sore. Been ran down since the day it opened.

This^. It won a crappy award 40 years ago from a bunch of hack architects that were so bad at their craft that the Stage Center was considered one of their great achievements. Boston City Hall won an award also, anyone want to save that?

Of course, none of the "Save Stage Center" should surprise anyone - RW built time into his plan for just such an effort.

Rainy Williams, the guy who owns the land and is leading the project promised this to be a world class building. If you don't know the context of the thread maybe you should go back and read. I dont care what you say, and obviously you don't know what you are talking about if you didnt pick up the reference I made to "world class".

I know exactly what he said, but let's not forget that what they showed was just rough draft sketchings. We have no clue what the final rendering will look like. My advice would be to wait and see if its "world class" when the real renderings are presented. Otherwise, you are making a huge issue over nothing at this point.

Lets shift our discussion away from saving the stage center, to maximizing the development of this valuable parcel of land.

We can all mostly agree that even this dreadfully disappointing proposal is still more valuable then the current stage center. However, the proposal is still a HUGE waste of the value of this land. Once this is developed, there is no going back.

This is the complete summation of my view points.

This^. It won a crappy award 40 years ago from a bunch of hack architects that were so bad at their craft that the Stage Center was considered one of their great achievements. Boston City Hall won an award also, anyone want to save that?

Its not about saving the stage center. it IS about the quality of development that is going replace it! And when someone promises a world class replacement, thats what they should be held to.